Interesting...... to be with me and to spend time with me, I would be the last person you would have to tell to chill out. My calm exterior belies the frustration, sadness and overwhelming disappointment and paralysis that I feel about being in this marriage. I can't take the approach to chill. I feel like I have to get through this to a conclusion. 20 years later, no sitting back and chillin' for me. I don't want to hang around in this 'place'.

Good insight Nowis. My concern for you is the AD meds have not fully kicked in yet. Regardless of your external demeanor there is the inner turmoil. The dragon of depression is an evil monster that distorts our thinking, muddies our emotions, damages our relationships, makes our lives a living h#ll at times.

What I want to encourage is to take a deep breath, don't be so hard on yourself. Be prepared for the long road. The road to recovery is a marathon not a sprint. There are many tools you will have to use to learn. And I hear the frustration in your voice that you have suffered long enough. 20 years is a very long time, it is not easy.

But look at how things have changed since you first posted. This is pretty significant in what has transpired in this short a time.


Is there ever a conclusion? Life is a journey and when we stop learning its over. You have some things to learn. And I'm glad to see you are motivated to learn them. You covered a lot of ground with your therapist. That was one session. My suspicion is you are going to be going over some difficult territory to work through this process. You disconnected for a reason. It was likely a safety mechanism. The key is locked away in you somewhere. The job of the therapist is to help you find the key.

One thing I know that worked for me and I would encourage this. Get some prayer support. It was helpful beyond measure how this impacted my recovery. Find yourself a FEMALE prayer partner or a prayer group and join in. God is in the business of miracles. I can attest that because of Him I am able to experience peace and joy in the middle of the storm. He gives us an open invitation that we can come to Him at any time. He tells us that where two or more are gathered together and ask it according to his will, it shall be done. It is not Gods will you suffer Nowis, that is meddling from the other side.

Remember Nowis, stop being so hard on yourself, you will get through this. When you need to vent come here. I am praying for you.

God Bless you and your family.

Thanks BCB

I'm trying to stay positive.

My self dialogue is one of "you have tried and tried during this whole marriage. It's not supposed to be like this. You either have to get some results and quick, or stop wasting your life and his".

It's very tempting to go on living the way we have always done. I want to check out from hour to hour. The Psychologist says it is probably only a matter of time before either of you end up in an A situation. That is frightening to me.

HOGWASH on what the councilor says. An affair is a choice of the will. Just like crossing the street on a red light. An affair will not fix anything other than rip a hole in both of your hearts. An affair is like Crystal Meth, It is highly addictive, provides a temporary high, but eats a hole in your brain. In the case of the affair it is a hole in your heart.

We have choices in life and having an affair is a destructive and hurtful choice. You have been down that road and have empirical evidence on how happy that made you. This is part of the depression. Have patience and allow the meds to kick in.

Right now you are in the throws of STINKY!!! Thinking Here is where discipline has to rule over feelings. If our feelings lead us to destructive behaviour then can those feelings be trusted? No they cannot. That is why God gave us the roadmap - the Bible to help us not get lost. The guidelines in the Bible are there for our protection. Just like you tell your kids "Don't touch - hot" you teach them how to protect themselves. As we grow older issues become more complex and we are not sure what to do at times. The Bible is not punitive it is there for our protection. We do not want to seek Gods will because we want to follow our will. We think we know best. Experience and history has shown us that is not the case.


Tried what? Your own ideas? In your own strength? You have encouraged me today. I realize now more than ever the phrase in scripture "seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all these things will be added unto you". I hear God knocking on your door Nowis.

The old saying gos "When you reach the end of your rope let go and let God". Please know that you are loved more than you can imagine. My prayer for you is you can allow yourself to experience His love.

Hang in there this too shall pass.

Nowis,

Now you know one thing your H fears...losing you.

But, you don't fear losing him do you? You didn't when you had your A, and you don't now.

You think you are going to find someone to love, but if your counselor is correct, you may find someone you are more strongly attached to, but you will pull away from them as well. It may take years, but it will happen.

You need to stay in place and work on your issues. It will drive your H crazy with worry, and HE may eventually just give up in dispair, but you need to work on yourself.

He KNOWS you don't love him, he KNOWS your find him inferior.
You KNOW he loves you. You KNOW he will try hard to remain married to you. I wonder what you would do if the roles were reversed. I wonder if you really have felt the sting of rejection like he has. I wonder if someone you loved deeply has rejected you for someone else. I wonder if you actually do know this and are protecting yourself.

I wonder a lot of things Nowis, but YOU need to stop wondering and figure out yourself.

I'll be very candid with you. It is possible that you don't, didn't, never have loved your H. It is possible that you will NEVER love him. It is possible that your children will grow up with a mother that shows no interest in her H and they will learn from this.

I don't want to shoe horn you into something you cannot do. I fear that a lot. But, I really think you need to learn how to love, you need to understand that you should not be WORKING on the marriage. Human decency should be easy. Human companionship should come easily (giving and receiving), empathy should come to you. You have been married over 20 years. One could speculate that you are having a Midlife crisis. I just don't know.

But, I find it interesting that you seem surprised when I mentioned that your H has fears. I find it interesting that after 20 years you don't understand that despite all of the propaganda, that men and women really do see/hear/address things differently. Perhaps I am wrong but that is the impression I get.

I keep wondering if I could convey to you the joy: of just being, of seeing someone who cares for you deeply: of the sense of security knowing that there is someone who wants to go through life with you and protect you, and love you.

Nowis, where you see WORK, I see the joy, I see being comfortable, I see a future.

I fear that I am talking a foreign language to you and that you don't really understand what I am saying. I fear that you don't understand that all of us posting to you want to see you happy, your family whole, and you at peace with yourself.

Nowis, you have made a lot of progress. I hope that your counselor can help you get to a place emotionally where you are happy and at peace.

God Bless,

JL

Not just trying. You are taking action, Nowis, action that will kick in. Do you have a plan with your doctor, that if you don't get relief once the meds have had a period of time to kick in, that you would try a differnt one, or a higher dose? ADs can be really effective.


Nowis, would it be honest to tell that voice that this time is different? That this time, you have the meds, you have IC support, you have the MB concepts that save marriages every day, and you have great friends here to support you in your goals. Do you have great friends IRL, too? Folks who you and your family are happy being around?


But look at you, Nowis. You are living by your choices, not your feelings. I get inspired reading your posts.




Have you read HNHN? This does happen to folks who live by their feelings. I am SO happy for you and your H that you made it through that trial by fire together. This time, I see you making different choices.

Plan A is the reality-bringer. Sometimes you find you don't have a spouse that is choosing to partner with you. I think that is the conclusion BCB may be coming to in his time on his thread. But you don't know yet. The Harleys can help you with a timeline, too.

I encourage you, Nowis, to keep an open mind and heart. There is a slogan I like, "Expect a Miracle." From what you have shared here, Nowis, I believe it is very possible.

This is why I have been encouraging you to read the Harley materials. Becaue we are so human. When our emotional needs are met, we do feel love for the person who is meeting them.

I encourage you to read this, it's pretty short, from the Basic Concepts:
The Three States of Mind in Marriage

I will not put myself in an affair situation again. Ever! The pain and damage I caused my H and myself............. it can never be taken back. It is embedded in our lives and memories and who wants that! My only fear is that my H would have an affair.



Thank you for caring.

JL


I made myself face that fear when I was in the A. I told myself that as soon as my H found out he would leave. I was scared but knew that is all I deserved. Even when we separated I said I could live alone as long as I have my children. Somehow I felt as though it should be my destiny. End up like my mother.



The thing is JL, I don't. I honestly don't. I have met a lot of men over the last couple of years that are not wholesome, loving guys like my H. I wouldn't trust them. (I guess this just tells you of the kind of guys I met). I know all men aren't like this. So I would just believe that I would be on my own for a long time.


Why would I do this JL, why?



I would run away. I can't handle rejection. My dad rejected me, never wanted me, just rejected me and does so to this day. I wanted him and he never wanted me. Lived 40 minutes away and came to visit for an hour at Christmas. Then he shows up to give me on my wedding day. For himself, not for me! Where is he now? Back to his own life and I don't exist.





Oh boy. I think (and the Psych touched on this yesterday) that I need to learn how to feel. Get in touch with my emotions. They shut down a long time ago and my mother didn't have the tools and so she couldn't show or express anything to me. I understand that. She said, just as you had said JL in a few posts back, that like depression it takes something extreme (pain of an insult, shame of an affair, inflicting pain on someone else, death) to actually feel something. I know that is true for me, for certain.



Yes, I am that uneducated on men but I've learned a lot recently!



I want to know that not just in theory but in my heart and in my feelings.



Well, I want to see those things too. I really want to and I hope to.

My heart hurts.

Thanks Ears

My H wants a good marriage with me and is forever hopeful. JL and BCB say he has a lot of fear. Mostly of losing me and I can see it now. When our relationship begins to rock I see it. However, he isn't that proactive in working at it. I guess this is fear too. We are settling into the date night once a week and we have managed SF twice this week. The rest he is leaving to me. He really does see things simply. I do try to hide the frustration and despair that I feel inside as I don't want to hurt him and want to shield him from being tired of me. I guess this is not truly honest.

Have done the ENs questionnaire by myself. Not read HNHNs. I kind of feel emotionally overloaded right now. Thought I would just do what the Psych wants me to do (journaling) and sticking to trying to give to my H.

Thank you Ears, JL, BCB, Catperson and others for helping me. You have no idea...

Can you start going for walks? It's a great way to clear your head, get some exercise, slow down your world, and feel better.

You're a mind reader!

Just got back from walking the dog and meeting my daughter off the school bus. Felt good. I was thinking that maybe I should try and walk at some point each day before my H gets home but that may happen once a week due to the children's schedule. But it's a goal anyway.

BINGO!!!!!!!

There it is. I knew it. I posted about the Father wound to you some time ago but you glossed over it. Here it is Nowis you get to face it. This is the elephant in the room.

You turned off to protect yourself. Of course it all makes sense now. Sorry to tell you this kiddo but you are going to have to experience the pain before you will be able to experience the love.

Now that you you have revealed this, you can get to work on this. And this crosses over into the area of the spiritual.

Of course you cannot love your H or feel his love. That is too risky. You don't think you are lovable. Oh my goodness. Here it is loud and clear another lie straight from the pit. Well I got news for you Nowis there is hope beyond what you can comprehend right now. The work that you need to embrace; to start you on the path to set you free was done 2000 years ago on the CROSS.

You do not have any concept of how precious and worthy and how loved you are in the eyes of your Heavenly Father. You can look down all kinds of areas for healing. But in my opinion there is only one way you are going to get the healing you need. Thank you for sharing that. That is it!!

Find a pastor you can work with and ask him if he can help you understand how much God loves you. How much you mean to Him.

You need some reassurance. Go ask you husband if he would ever consider having an affair. I will be very surprised if he will. Tell him how afraid you are. Tell him you do not feel loved. Tell him how your fathers actions have scared you.

Then both of you get down on your knees and pray that God would set you free. I suggest you get connected with a local body of believers to pray you through this. To walk with you. To encourage you.

The Christian community is all about healing and becoming whole. Seek fellow seekers.

I am very happy for you Nowis. You are getting closer. Are you willing to seek the cure?

Before you go any further. Go and find out how much GOD loves you. I think you will find great comfort as it sinks into your heart, the realization that He sacrificed it all for you. That is how Christianity has survived all these years, it is the power of Gods love. To heal us and make us whole.

Seek you first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you, is not just words. When you really need it, when all the self focus, self reliance, self interest no longer works what is left? When we have exhausted all of our resources, and we still come up short, where can we turn? He tells us I stand at the door and knock. I sense God is knocking Nowis. He has a gift for you.

God Bless you and your family. (And he will)

I agree with bcboy, but I would add that a good psychologist will also be needed to get past the hurt your father caused.

BCB

I understand what you are saying about God. I grew up in the church. Was there 3 times on a Sunday and at various times during the week. My mum is very religious. However, I have to tell you, God did not show up for me. I believed all the things I was taught, I did all the right things and I still felt like a sinful mess. I remember in my quiet desperate moments praying to God to help me to love me and to just be with me. I felt nothing. God did not show up for me. I went on blindly believing anyway. Praying a lot because I figured I must be bad because everyone else had the joy and love of God. However, I never felt Him close. He never became real. So, there it is in a nutshell - God was and never has been close to me and I have never felt it. He was always 'out there' being God of the Universe not a heavenly father like was claimed. No fuzzy feelings for me. I tried to believe, talked the talk and tried to walk the walk. When I moved away from the church and didn't torture myself anymore, I felt nothing but relief. Plenty of guilt, but a lot of relief.

Now it's not that I don't believe in a higher power - I see the universe, nature working in different ways. The God of Christianity has not been the one for me.

I admire your faith but I don't relate on that level.

Nowis,

I have really been encouraged by your thread, and I applaud your efforts to making your marriage work.

I can relate so well to how you feel about God. I also grew up in the church, seemed to have to go every time the doors were open, even rebelled through teenage and early adult years, BUT when my daughter was born, I started thinking about what I really believed, and started reading my Bible again. I found that the Gospel John is my favorite book. I suggest that you try reading that book, just to see if it will help your perspective. It showed me that God is not remote, He loves all of us, even if we seem unlovable. In the ways that Jesus reached out to all kinds of different people, He shows that He loves everyone.

One thing my husband and I do to stay connected is walk together two to three times a week. It's great for just together time without distraction, and get a little exercise as well. Is that something you and your husband could do as well?

Thanks Tgal

Yes, I understand what you are saying. The bible makes good reading. If you are able to have that close relationship with God, feel his love etc, then that is marvelous. It is something I strived for but never got. I honestly relate more to Patanjali's Yoga Sutras.

Am 6 months post surgery and am going to take my first full yoga practice tonight. It's been a while. My H and I are going together so that will be better.

Hi Nowis,

I understand where you are coming from on being in church and never feeling loved by God. Always trying to do what was "right" as far as I was being taught at the time. But when I allowed myself to start questioning my upbringing I found some books that really helped me a lot!! I can relate to ALL the stuff about feeling rejected by parents (both of mine, not just one) and never feeling wanted or loved by either of them. I spent my whole life trying to do anything I could to make them love me -- nothing worked!!

But when I found the books and started reading them, I was amazed at how backwards some things can be taken out of the Bible and taught. One of the books is - FALSE ASSUMPTIONS Twelve Christian Beliefs That Will Drive You Crazy!

Another one was The MOM Factor - that one touches on the different ways our parents failed us as we were growing up, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with us at all. It helped me see soooo many things that had been done to me - intentional or not and start to come to grips with some of it. But I did still have to go through counseling and have one close friend that accepted me just where I was (one mad **tch at the time - and believe it or not, I met him in a bar - he is blind and turned into the dad I never had - mine died in 04 from cancer)that is where I believe that God can take even the worst of our lives and use it for good. Romans 8:28 (Thankfully I'm no longer a bar hopper. I don't miss that.) None of the people in the church could not understand the trauma I had suffered since the age of 2 weeks. But having lost his eyesight as he was entering his 40's(he's 63 now), he could understand all the built up anger and resentment and still be my friend anyway. And eventually, I got enough of it out that the good could be there most of the time.

But it can be done. It can all be overcome. I go to a hypnotherapist even now (at least until I get through my national board exam) that helps me in relaxation and letting go of bottled up feelings that were never expressed. Thankfully, I've made it through my season of nightmares where I'd call her so upset because of the horrible things I was doing to my parents in my dreams. She just reassured me that it was my brain filing everything that hadn't been able to be filed while I was growing up.

Now, things are different between me and my mother. I'm happy even to be alone at home (couldn't stand it before). I finally feel love for myself. I can feel God's love for me through Jesus. And just this past Tuesday, I had my counselor tell me that the patience I show with and the love I showed for my bf (who is struggling with the same issues) is amazing. That shocked me!!

If you are intersted in the books at all (and there are more), the author's are Henry Cloud and John Townsend. They are Cristian Counselors that have dealt with the exact issues stated - and then some. They are great!

Hope the best for you
God Bless,
RMW

Thank you RMW for taking the time to write.

It's soo nice that you found someone that was a father to you.

I have heard of Cloud and Townsend. I think I read a book by them helping with raising teenagers - if my memory serves me correctly.



It is encouraging to hear that you can work through your issues and come out stronger the other side. I will keep on persevering.

Thanks again

There has been a big development. My H has read no more Mr Nice Guy in the wee hours of the morning and has had quite an epiphany! There have been lots of tears and it has been rather an intense day. Very reminiscent of D-day. He's deciding whether he wants to stay married to me or not!

I will communicate more tomorrow.