Hi TMTS,

I finally finished your thread and am keen to see what happened next. Where are you???

I could really use some Plan A/Recovery advice.

I hope this bounces to you in cyberspace!

Over 20 years ago, I went through a three tiered training similar to Landmark. I've seen mixed results as far as relationships go in my 20 year walk through life since, in and out of the training. Too many times, I've seen couples destroy each other using the language of the training as a weapon to manipulate their partner.

You are doing well, focusing on being your best self, and remaining open and inviting to him to join you. You are not using the language of the training to "process" him into being with you - you are simply "being". Great! Excellent! As it should be.

I was also relieved to see that you were prepared for the let down after the exhilaration of the completion of your first step. It truly was a wonderful feeling when I went through, and there was such a sense of loss the first time life comes rushing back on me! Hours later, actually and the first three weeks after was when I confronted my mother about some childhood memories and found out not only had my guess that she had cheated on my father been dead on, but that she thought that I was a product of that affair! Devastating! I went straight into the 2nd level a couple weeks after that secret came spilling into my life and dealt with more and more.

You are discovering that your husband will choose in or out, but that you always have the choice to have joy NOW anyway.

Remember, keep breathing, take another step, breathe and acknowledge where you are right now... It really truly works.

It only breaks down when you try to manage someone else's experience of NOW. He has to choose that for himself...

I'm pulling for you!

Love and light,

KA

Thank you KA - you have lifted me up!

It must have been a huge life lesson for you and I take it from your stong position now that you are enjoying your life too. It certainly removes the burden of carrying unecessary loads. Thank you for inspriring me!

I still have my moments but I find that I really want and can remove myself from situations that bring me down. I now live with the knowledge that I am fine whatever he chooses and I think he sees it too.

I have not given up on my marriage, just the expectations of being able to control everything. I have a long way to go to become less controlling in life, but I feel like I am on the right path.

Maybe he has seen the changes in me and that's why he chose to come home when he did. I love that it was 100% his choice to be there. I feel completely free to just relax and let it be and it feels great.

I am sure tonight will pep me up again and I look forward to catching up with my new friends from the group and telling them about my breakthrough!

Thanks again KA

I had my Forum seminar last night and it was great to catch up with my little group. They were all suitably surprised about WH coming home!

I got home at 11pm and the house was immaculate, dishwasher on, kids asleep and DH working on music in his studio. I gave him a quick kiss on the cheek and went into the lounge and watched a bit of tv. He came in about 5 minutes later (unexpectedly) and sat with me on the couch, sharing my chips!

We laughed over Seinfield and as I got up to go to bed he asked me about my seminar and I went through some of the key points.

I gave him another kiss on the cheek and went to bed. No LB's.

I don't know what time he got to bed but DD came in at 4am and I took her back to bed and then gave him cuddles when I climbed back in. I think he could of been interested in SF, so I retreated to my side of the bed before he thought I was pushing for something and turned it back on me!

At 5am DD came in again and he brought her into bed on his pillow and slept at the opposite end of the bed to give us all room. (head to toe)

When I woke up, he got DD and DS ready for school and put them in the car.

I told a concerned friend at work that I am trying not to be needy, demanding and emotional. He said that might be a problem because WH would want to feel needed. His wife left him 9 years ago and they got back together after 12 months apart. He did not communicate with her and now he tells her everything and they seem to have a winning formula for their growing family. I think I do need to be more vulnerable.

I am trying hard to be needy and involve him around the house. He put dinner on and fed the kids last night without asking me for help and I asked him to put the roast chicken on for us today. I don't think I ever gave him enough credit and babied him too much.

My blame in our demise is definately that I am super controlling, independent and successful. I think I actually wrote him out of the marriage in my attempt to make him happy and he didn't see his place in it. It is my goal to make him the integral part that I need so that he knows his value and place in our home.

The old me:

I order for him when we go out or suggest items he might like and change his mind; I cook, clean, do laundry, work full time, dress, bathe, feed the kids, manage our finances, complain about how busy I am and how little he does to help me, sulk, mope around, complain about him not wanting to spend time with me...

The new me:

I ask him to help around the house, ask him to put dinner on, leave the dishes for him to do the next day (at his request), ask him to help dress the kids, thank him for all of his help and enjoy it so much when he does these things without me asking - he really does want to help.

I know there is more to add to help him feel a part of the family unit. Any ideas or suggestions?

I asked if he wanted to go to the drive in tonight together and he said no, he wants to spend time with the kids. I did have some expectations that he would want to reconnect with me but I didn't voice them. It is enough at the moment that he is home and having dinner with us and not leaving at night, not spending time on the phone, not shrinking away when his phone rings and coming to bed with me. His committment to the kids and our family is evident and I think he is trying with me too. He hasn't taken up the full effort to get our marriage on track, yet. Couselling is next Tuesday after 2 weeks break.

He has a 2nd interview tomorrow with a music store that he applied to and he really wants it. I think it would help him feel like a contributor financially and really help with his sense of self worth and responsibility too. It's a big change for him to be looking for work. He is changing

After reading MogiSola's post, I realise I need to focus on me - what makes me happy, developing me, keep up with no relationship discussions, don't follow him around, no pressure, back to Plan A.

He cooked the chicken today but told me that he wants only apples and bananas for tea as he's put on too much weight. He cooked it, not me, so where's the problem?! I told him that chicken and salad is so much better and he went on a tangent about me not letting him do what he wants etc. When he finished I changed the subject.

So, I'll make tea for the kids and go all out playing with them and having a great time until bed. Then I'll go and de-hair my legs, jump in the spa bath and have a lovely soak and read a book. I plan to exist for me tonight and if he feels like joining me, he can, but I will not pursue him. Actually, this has to be my plan for the weekend.

Tomorrow I might pull out the canvasses I bought for the bedroom and start painting them up. I've been procrastinating and it's something that I really used to love to do.

I am taking DD and DS to a movie premiere on Sunday morning. I invited him but he said no. His loss - we'll have a great time.

I thought he was working in OW's band tomorrow night but it has fallen through. Boo hoo. I think he is with his band on Sunday night so I will just keep up an awesome Plan A. I hope to pull him out of his W/D by focussing on me.

WH/DH picked up the kids from school and was playing with them when I got home. The house was tidy, chicken cooked, and things seemed great.

I served up tea for the kids and I and after about 10 minutes he came and served himself a plate of chicken and salad too! I knew he'd love it - it just had to be his idea!

I had a bath last night and he came in 3 times to check on me! When I came out after 1 1/2 hours all refreshed and relaxed I came straight to the lounge. He practically ran out of the studio, put on a movie, made me a cup of coffee, got us some biscuits and sat with me on the couch. He eventually told me about his new song because it was probably killing him that I hadn't asked him.

He kept on updating the lyrics and jumped into the studio a couple of times to get things down. On my way to bed he asked me to listen to it. He really wanted to involve me with his things. I gave him 100% attention when he initiated it but kept to myself otherwise.

Today has been the same. I have largely stayed out of his way and he has been actively sitting with me and involving me with things.

We had a small R talk. He wants to keep his separate bank account and doesn't feel 100% committed yet. I jsut said ok, but if we want it to work we are both going to have to give it 100% at some stage or it will fail. We dropped it and watched some car clips on U-tube together.

I can see this working out although I do understand that he is taking it slowly and holding back at the moment. It's ok. I can do this and I feel really strong in the knowledge that he's here for the right reasons. Family first is fine with me. It includes me too.

At my request, he did the Five Love Languages - Gary Chapman - 30 second test. He picked Words of Affirmation which I had guessed for him. He thought I was Acts of Service which explains why the house was always tidy but I never got my Quality Time. It meant a lot that he asked me what mine was. I don't know if he'll read the book, but at least I can fill up his Love Bank in his love language!

I kept up my plan A but we had a fight last night.

He worked yesterday afternoon but came home straight after the gig. His heart wasn't in it - but he was civil enough.

He mowed the lawn, I put the kids to bed and then offered to make him a bite to eat, He said yes and came back out of the studio and sat with me.

When he got a text message, it was a photo of a hummer. I asked him who sent it at he said Cara - OW2 (best friend number 2).

He told me that I am not allowed to have anything to do with his work or his friendships. I told him I didn't give a F about any of them, he could do what he wanted.

That was about it.

Until, I cleaned the kitchen and jumped in the bath and called a friend of mine from Sydney. I was chatting to her when he came into the bathroom and was indicating (I think) that I was talking to a man and not listenting to him. He was telling me he was going for a drive because I had upset him by using the F word.

Anyway, he grabbed the phone from me, said hello, BS will call you back. He then carried on and walked out.

I called her back and apologised for his behaviour, said I thought he must have a guilty conscience if he thought I was speaking to a man and we went back to discussing her daughter. He stormed back in, screamed at me for telling her about our business and then left.

He didn't get home until 2:30am but sent his standard text message at 11:30pm.

"You have zero respect for me and zero respect for the privacy of our marriage and our problems. How dare you laugh at me with someone else. Have you lost everything you were. You are so wrong about me, I couldn't give a damn if you hang on my every word or not. You wont F with me again."

So, he gets home, goes out to the lounge and does who knows what before crawling in to bed about 3:30am.

No talking this morning, but he did dress the kids for me.

My friend does not believe in MB principals and told me that I should confront him, tell him that as he is only here for the kids and does not want to work on our marriage, that he should move to the other room and we should be free to date other people. She said that he only moved home to show me who was boss and cake eat and find his familiar doormat.

Arrghhh!

I don't know what to do! Please help.

He works tonight and has a band rehearsal until late so I will not see him all day.

It's official, I just got off the phone with him and he is only home for the kids. Does not love me "like that" and is very unhappy with me, blames me for everything and will not consider working on anything.

I asked him why he came home, he said it was only for the kids and he is not ready for anything with me at all, and might never be.

I cried and blubbered away. Funny thing is that crying to him is not a Love Buster - he kind of likes the vulnerable me so I hope it has some sort of affect on him.

What do I do?

2M2L,

I am a moderator and will move your thread to GQII for more responses, as you requested.

Hi 2M2L,

Don't get too freaked out right now about why he moved back, that fact that he is back makes Plan A much easier to implement. That being said, I am worried about his violent streak and what it might mean for you and your children.

As far as your Plan A goes you seem do be doing well, but there is one part that I need clarification on. What kind of snooping have you done to 1- Confirm the A and 2- Confirm that it's still active or not. It seems to me that he would like your role to extend no further than the boundaries of your yard and that nothing else in his life is your business. Well if this is his attitude get ready for BF 3,4,5 and 6 because they will be just around the corner when BF #2 doesn't do it for him anymore.

Remember that a big part of plan A is to expose the A and put as much pressure on it as you can. You need to know what's going on before you can do that, and to know you need to snoop.

Don't make any changes in how you deal with him, follow all the same Plan A rules, because only when the A crumbles will the work you have done make any difference at all. For now just know your making investment deposits for a possible future.

Recovery from my end is going well, we still need to work on openness as we tend to keep things in but I am much more attentive and aware that she is a "Words of Affirmation" I now understand that doing things for her is not what she wants or needs.

He just called me to see how I was. Then, he was annoyed that I sounded ok. I'm at work, I have to be. I took 30 minutes after I hung up to regain my control but that is not considered.

He also told me that they offered him the job. It's great news but he says he doesn't feel fantastic about it. He doesn't feel fantastic about anything at the moment.

I sent him a message "Congratulations! You're amazing at everything you do. You will ace this job no problem. They gave it to you because they know you're a gun. Knock'em dead tiger!"

It's actually very similar to a text he sent me in the early days of my new job. Except, he told me "I love you to pieces beautiful girl". How I long for the old days!

Thanks 2M2S, it was so nice to see you here!

You are right, the focus needs to be on plan A.

As far as snooping, I don't have access to his phone, he leaves his laptop around but I don't have his passwords, he has a new bank account in his name only and he refuses to tell me anything about HIS life.

My snooping is very very limited.

All I know is since we have been home together, he is around a lot of the time and attentive to me some of the time. He watches movies with me and chooses to be at home instead of elsewhere.

Mobile phone is usually on silent and face down so no access unless I catch him texting.

He doesn't think he has had an EA with BF1 and certainly doesn't think he is having any now. To him, no sex = no affair.

He doesn't want me to cook, clean, or be attentive to him etc.

Plan A is going to be really hard.

The BF1 is a silent friend from my end. She is rarely brought up in coversation and when I looked at his phone the other day there were only calls and texts from BF2, not BF1. Although, he might be deleting them.

The band that the BF1 and WH were in together has decided not to use my WH anymore. That cuts down on the work time for the two of them together too.

I don't see him during the day and don't know what he gets up to apart from making music in the home studio.

My snooping sucks!

I'm happy to hear that your R is moving along. Love languages are so important and are so simple when you read about them! Good luck with you M and all the positive changes. Christmas should be very special for you this year

The incident with the phone is a classic abuse technique. He doesnt like you to chat to friends because your relationships with others might undermine his attemps to control your life. He much prefers you alone and in tears.

The question is ---Is he abusive because he is having an a or is the a just part of his abusive behaviour. In other words which came first the a or the abuse..How long has the abuse been happening ?

Was he doing it before the a ?

Thanks Myopia.

When things are great between us he is a pin-up husband.

However, if we ever argued, which was rarely, he would always just jump in the car and go, not actually get verbally or physically abusive. This has been his pattern from the start of our relationship.

I have honestly only seen this "abusive" behaviour when I am impeding on his "privacy" or enforcing my boundaries.

He does have control issues and as a conflict avoider it is hard for me to separate the A and normal behaviour completely.

He is a conflict avoider too, and with that, a communication avoider.

I truly believe that if I was not following him around the house and standing in front of him whilst he was walking in to see the kids, there wouldn't have been physical abuse. I don't condone it at all, but I was certainly knowingly pushing his buttons.

He has never raised his voice to or hit our children. Not ever. Not even close.

He did see me on this forum the other night and knows that I am getting advice from somewhere and talking to friends.

He has not rasied his voice or used any bad language or escalated anything since we have been home together. Last night was the first time and on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the worst imaginable and 1 the least offensive, last night was a 1-2 at most.

I'm not sure how to get my boundaries back.

Good post-forum read for you:

"Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz
"Excuse me, Your Life Is Waiting" by Lynn Grabhorn

Good reminders of what you learned and why your boundaries are not about your husband, but about you, and only you.

That means that if bad language doesn't suit who you are, on purpose, then you don't use it, not even when you are angry, ESPECIALLY not when you are angry. Anger is a signal that you are "OFF" - so get to the bottom of that. Remember some of the processes - your safe place is waiting for you to get back in line with what you are about.

Breathe!

Let your husband be himself - no expectations. Have you figured out how you get to be strong and take a stand during all this? No victimness?

Thanks KA.

I will check out the books that you mentioned. I also dug out Boundaries again last night to finish the last 2/3.

You're right about the bad language. I have been so good and I let myself lose control. Breathe is a great recommendation.

He got home at 12:30am last night after the rehearsal and proceeded to climb into bed next to me and tell me about one of the guys in the band.

Apparently he sought out my WH for advice - he has a son the same age as our DS and his defacto wife is 20 weeks into the second pregnancy. He bumped into an old flame on the weekend and she is texting him and telling him she loves him and wants him etc and he is having trouble saying no.

My WH asked him if he was unhappy at home, he said no, and my WH told him to consider what he is going to lose and if it is worth it. The friend said he thinks he loves the ex-gf and is deciding what to do. My WH told him to consider that the ex-gf has no morals if she is considering breaking up a family etc and he should question her committment and would have to wonder if she would treat their R like that too.

I told WH that he gave some really good advice. He piped up that not all situations are like this and made it about our R and said that if people aren't happy they shouldn't be forced to stay together. I took the discussion back to his friend and said that if they loved each other they could make anything work. I mentioned NC, he said he told him that and he said no.

WH is really worried about him and said he was the last person he thought would have problems.

WH tried to cuddle me a few times last night and it was sweet. I had to go to the chemist for DS and on the way into work I dropped off a breakfast wrap for him.

We have our MC session today at 2pm. After our last session it was all over and I called the police later that night etc. How things can change.

It's awesome being able to PLAN A my husband from home.

We had MC this afternoon. He was extremely PO'd and proceeded to tell our C why. Basically, I am entirely to blame, a liar, he hates me, is only home for the kids, is home because that's what I wanted, I must be really happy because he's home, he is really sad at home, hates being home, hates being around me, misses me when he's with his female friends, doesn't think he can be married to someone he hates, I have ruined everything and he can't move on etc etc.

The MC told him to take back his power. He cannot be sad or angry because of me. He chooses to be mad, sad and angry and can choose alternatives. He told him to leave the past and focus on the present and the future and having the best relationship we can have, be it co-parents and/or married. He told him our sessions will only work if we do the homework, together, at home. MC is not a magic cure.

We all LOL when WH said that he does not think he can put up with my wrath were this to happen again. Yep, even he saw the humour. He explained the E as a wave of destruction, so I think I aced the tsunami of truth exposure test.

He wants to work on our R and then see if we can have a M that will be amazing. Hello, that's what I have been trying to tell him! He agrees we both have a long way to go before finding the in love feeling and wants to take it slowly. Again, duh!

Tells MC he baited me a few times to see if I would snap or tiptoe around issues and play happy families to keep the peace. Apparently I plan A'd it exceptionally well and he said he has been unable to ripple things but doesn't want me walking on eggshells and knows it's superficial.

I had a chance to say I want to set boundaries and want a H to love me dearly and respect, honour and adore me and allow me to do the same for him. I said it would be WH or someone new when the time was right, but my focus is on my family and building a R with WH.

We need to have 2 dialogues this week, both initiating one each so we'll see how that plays out. In my topic want to talk about boundaries and how I want a M to work for me and what upsets me about our old R.

So, we're going together to pick up the kids from school and all hang out tonight. He's out tomorrow, I'm out Friday. Must keep up plan A.

Ok, stuffed up again. Spoke to mutual friend who asked me if I knew OW was at rehearsal last night. Ah, no! Apparently they were not that close, she came late and left early and were average friends at best. Mutual friend was confused and surprised.

Anyway, on way to pick up kids I ask him in the car if she was there. He said no. I asked him if that was the truth and he said yes. Stupidly, I pushed it, told him it concerns my boundaries that he is not honest with me, regardless of our R, and he told me that he's leaving tonight. He will explain it to DD etc.

I told him not to make a decision in haste, begged him to reconsider, apologised for being demanding and prying into his business/friendships and made a massive mess of it. Major LBing.

He did his own thing with gardening and the car, I fed kids and he floated in and out. He took DD out for a drive and told me he was going to take as long as he needed to explain things to her...

I showered DS, put him to bed and cried why I fed him his milk. I jumped in the shower 30 minutes after they left which was when they got home. DD ran in excitedly with her icecream and movies.

I showered, dressed nicely, did make up and cruised out like all was peachy. Got DD ready for bed and put her in and then busied myself with beading.

He is in the studio now, but stopped past to say he will look for accom tomorrow as this is not working out and I only have myself to blame, would regret it etc. I said that was up to him. Felt sorry for kids that he came home for such a brief time and went the extra mile to tell them he was staying. He said again that he had explained it all to DD that he would have his own house and she could sleep over and she was happy. I said, with all due respect, she's 3 and she will look for you each morning and night and cry and still not understand.

He said I have screwed things up again with his band by sticking my nose in and causing arguments among the ranks. Whatever. I'm staying away from mutual friend again, I wish he hadn't told me anything. Why did he? I can't be trusted with information about OW.

So, I'm staying away again and hoping it will just die down and he'll change his mind and stay home. Where are you guys? I keep hoping I will get 2x4'd etc and have someone to help me stay on the straight and narrow and save my marriage.

I'm doing a [censored] job of this.

If he goes, might be time for Plan B afterall.

Do you have a plan b letter ready to hand him if he moves out?

You're just learning how to be emotionally autonomous, meaning you choose how you feel, independent of his behavior. Many people do not understand this aspect of Plan A - yet you are gaining control, bit by bit. Don't be defeated by your moments of weakness. Nobody does this perfectly. He sees enough of the things he loves about you to want to stay. But he also wants his cake, his lies, and when you call him to a higher ground he's not willing or ready to step up to, he blames you for his delinquency.

Be certain you place responsibility where it lies. You are not to blame for gathering information on his integrity and worthiness to be home. He wants you to feel guilty for his leaving. That is his responsibility and his only.

Keep breathing. The Four Agreements is a way for you to learn to not take his dream of life personally. To step out of his drama. Infidelity is not part of your dream of life, so he may have to leave. But you have been as inviting as possible. Do your best until he moves out to be unruffled, and consistent, loving and attractive. Do not let him guilt trip you into taking responsibility for his crap!

Thank you KA. I can breathe again!

I got up early and loaded an eblaster keylogger on his laptop. I figured now was my chance given he might be leaving soon anyway. I want to see how committed he is to his double life and if he really is looking for accommodation, when his rehearsals are, passwords for his accounts including email and banking and myspace entries.

I felt guilty about doing it this morning but I know from reading this board that it is essential too.

He was being his usual arrogant self this morning and DD ran into the bathroom where I was and said that she can live with daddy and DS can live with me!

I calmly went out and said that she was 3 and it was not appropriate to talk to her about big things that she doesn't understand. I said to DD that she and DS would always be together because daddy loves them both very much.

I also told him that I thought that him coming home felt like Christmas to the kids and that it would be better to give this another go without leaving them worse than before. I prefer that he stay and we come to an arrangement and leaving is up to him, not essential.

He said I had already had my chance.

Then he said I could take the convertible (his baby) as long as I cleaned it when I got home and got home early enough to get to his rehearsal. I agreed. I love the car and it is a way to ensure he will not leave during the day and he will have to put his bags into the car in front of me tonight if he's going tonight. He got them dressed and put them in the car for me. Why would he give the car to someone he hated and despised?

Thank you so much for your explanation. I know that I asked something tender but his blow up was way over target although he said it was because he wanted to know how I knew and who my source was. I did reveal it to him last night to keep the peace, he said it would help, but it was just more ammo.

It's a new day, I am refreshed and ready.