WH2LE, I have searched for Charlotte22's thread as you suggested but I can't find it. Is it under General Questions 2? could you indicate where it is. Mind you, I'm a bit nervous of reading it since you say it ended in D.

I think I've reached the stage now where I could cope with D for myself but I'm so nervous for the children. Every so often, especially at bedtime, one or more of them gets anxious about being here so long and wants to go back. But I'm not sure that it's really being here is the problem, I think it's that they miss their father and are scared that our family is splitting up. So moving back to France now wouldn't resolve that problem or at least it would be very temporary. Still, it's tough to cope with.

This morning my brother rang WH's hotel (local hotel, name voluntarily given so that's progress too) and asked if he'd like to come and see the kids. He did and I was gone out of the house before he got there. My brother said that his heart broke to see the situation of a man coming to pick up his kids to wander the streets just to spend time with them. Me too but I have no alternative. Anyway, my brother suggested that he come back early so that they can talk and WH said OK but then dashed off within a minute of dropping off the kids. I wanted my brother to ask WH to suggest another mediator if he wants someone else but the opportunity didn't arise.

Neak, I rang the mediator and she really is a great friend. I would not like to lose her. She said that she plans to send him an email this week saying that even if he doesn't want her as a mediator that she's available to talk to him if he wants. Probably a good idea as I don't like to think of him so totally alone if he does crack. I spoke to a close gay friend this evening and he made the comparison with his own journey towards coming out - 'breakdown to breakthrough' he said which sounded appropriate to me. But what do you think I should do about the mediator situation?

Well, I've now managed 17 days of no direct communication with WH which is much more than ever in the past. He is suffering and that doesn't make me feel good (OW suffering would be another story altogether - why is that?) but I can see that it's necessary and will be good for him, our M and the children in the long run. I hope this ordeal becomes a growing experience for him and not a breaking one.

While browsing I read this by MelodyLane on another thread and it struck a chord with me. She is referring to a WH who has just gone into Plan B.

I know that WH is floundering and unsure of how to come back. I wonder if I have been specific enough about conditions in my PB letter. Of course I asked for NC but he's saying it's over and fine, there'll be NC (I'd like a bit more conviction but we'll pass over that for the moment) but I didn't specifically ask for a plan as to how he will ensure NC.

Secondly I asked for real effort to reconstruct our M but I didn't give specific examples. Should I? Maybe I could use the opportunity of a new mediator to present a more specific list of conditions? Or even if I give it to the old mediator, she could forward it and it might reignite his ability to communicate with her.

Don't worry about it for now. You'll have a pretty good idea when he's broken, and that's the time to bring it out.

I think he has enough of an idea with the NC to know where to start. When he's ready, you can guide him from there.

If he picks a new mediator, it needs to be someone you would accept, also. For example, NOT his mother.

Hi tully and Neak,

I wrote the following post on Sunday but was unable to post it, so I saved it in Word. I have just read tully's questions this morning and they seem to address much of what I wrote below, so I'll post it as it was written, despite Neak's response.

Hi everyone,

I'd just like to clarify with you all the steps tully should take in Plan B. I know that as I'm new here, and did not apply the MB plans to my own recovery, I might be misunderstanding the plan.

I'm concerned because tully has had an offer of reconciliation, and so far she has been advised not to respond to it.

Could those thus advising please clarify why you are saying this? Is it only because WH has not put the request through the mediator?

If so, would it make a difference if tully were to make her brother the mediator? He has done a very good job of protecting her interests, and WH seems prepared to talk to him whilst he will not talk to the friend in France. tully's brother seems unlikely to take offence at being given clear instructions about his role, as the current mediator might do at the expense of their friendship.

If it is not only the issue of going through the mediator, why else should tully not respond to WH's overture?

In suggesting that tully respond, I am taking into account that WH is probably lying about not seeing OW in Ireland. I'm sure that he spent the night with her. However, if tully assumes that he did so, and on that basis rejects the offer of reconciliation talks, why should she not tell WH that she knows that the affair is continuing, and tell him what he needs to do to open the lines of communication?

I'm worried that tully's Plan B letter did not specify in very much detail what WH must do to re-establish communication between him and tully. If tully went with Neak's version of the letter, as she said she would, then her Plan B letter said


The single condition that tully stated in that letter was that all contact between WH and OW must end.

tully has every reason to believe that WH was with OW last weekend, but she does not know whether he has ended things with her since. WH went to Ireland again this weekend saying that there is no affair now. If tully simply does not respond to this overture, how is WH to move forward? The Plan B letter did not specify what he had to demonstrate to prove that contact that ended; only that contact had to end before tully would consider talking to him.

I'm worried that if tully simply refuses to respond to WH's offer to reinstate the marriage, he might continue his affair and lose the desire to reconcile.

From the point of view of securing the marriage, Plan B is a risky strategy. It is not a strategy designed to bring the WS back to the marriage. Forcing the affair partners to rely on each other for all their emotional needs might result in the affair's collapse, but it might not. tully was advised to read Dancing Machine's (Charlotte's) thread by recent posters, but while Charlotte's story shows how "going dark" should be properly done, it also shows the ending of the marriage. Some WSs like hers come to terms with living without the BS and give up trying to win them back.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about Plan B:

The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind."


Surely tully risks the development of this "out of sight, out of mind" mentality in her WH the longer Plan B goes on. Unlike Charlotte, tully and her H have children who will suffer badly if they divorce. tully's WH was probably very recently in the affair (as recently as a few days ago), but as of this weekend he did not want the marriage to end and was panicked and desperate when he made his unannounced visit. I think that there is an opportunity here that tully cannot afford to let slip. Her H is pressing for reconciliation; surely she should move towards this before they both become used to living without each other?

Clearly she must not move towards a false recovery. I'm not suggesting that she risks any such thing. I know only too well what false recovery does, particularly to BWs. I wrote about my trauma from my own WH's many false NCs when I first contributed to this thread.

I'm suggesting that tully gives clear instructions, through whichever mediator she wants to use now, specifying that lying, defensiveness, evasiveness, lack of remorse and the rest, are not acceptable to her. She could say, without revealing how, that she has proof of the night spent at the hotel last weekend. She could say that she will talk to WH about reconciling when he stops lying, shows proof of NC and agrees to a number of other things. turtlehead suggested many conditions in a list she posted, before tully went to Ireland, I think. (I'm afraid that I cannot work out how to quote from two different posts in the same reply, so forgive me for paraphrasing and perhaps getting a few things wrong.) turtlehead's list named specific things like email passwords, future transparency, remorse, counselling and a house move, if tully wanted that.

Dr. Harley does not say that the BS must not respond to overtures until the WS can demonstrate that NC is in place. He says,

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation.


On reading that column again this weekend I was struck by the extent to which Dr. Harley emphasises the risk, in Plan B, that the couple never reunites. My feeling from reading the column is that he is advising much encouragement from the BS for the WS to return before the opportunity is lost. I do not see his advising silence as a response to a WS's offer.

I see that tully's WH was upset and desperate when he took off for Ireland this weekend, after he realised that his carefully planned, discovery-proof night of passion with HoBag had in fact been discovered and might mean the end of his marriage. I think that there must be a way to build on his wish to put his marriage back together and bring the risky separation to an end very soon. I'm not suggesting that tully accepts him back whilst he is lying and probably still in contact, but I do think that a clear list of requirements, issued through the mediator, might be a valuable move forward.

What do you think?

Those were my thoughts on Saturday having read the same thread that MelodyLane responded to, that tully mentions.

I have noticed that Mel's advice to Plan B-ers always tells them to make very specific conditions. She also tells them to reiterate the conditions if the WS makes unsatisfactory contact. She does not tell the BS to respond to contact with silence, but with clarification. Having read tully ask some very similar questions to my own above, I think her Plan B approach should be re-examined.

Sugar, you have addressed the same issues that I am nervous about, I agree with Neak that WH does not have the right attitude yet in order for the M to get back on track but I do need to give him more guidance about what exactly I need in order to do so. Especially as he is severely lacking in friends who can guide him from his side of things.

could someone plese help me with this?

Tully

Hi tully,

You can see that I was enjoying experimenting with colour this morning!

lildoggie started an interesting thread on Plan B outcomes earlier this year. It is short, so if you can find time to read it, it's on p35 of GQ2 today. It's called "To all current and past plan B'ers".

Dancing_Machine's thread is called "Charlotte22's thread" and is at the moment on P2 of GQ2, but Charlotte updates frequently so you should check P1 as well.

Are your toes looking pretty today?

Dear tully,

Why don't you consider writing a letter offering your WH more details as to the path back to the marriage? Post it here to get feedback from the experts(which by the way, I certainly am NOT). Then, deliver it through the mediator.

From what I know, your H is behaving paar for the course. He is not able to get all his needs met through the OW. He wants to be with you TOO so that he can get ALL his needs met, some by YOU, and some by the OW. He is getting desperate for contact with you because his needs are not being met.

It doesn't matter if he denies contact with the OW, you KNOW he was with her last weekend. He is gaslighting when he says he wasn't. I am of the belief that you don't NEED to offer him proof as to HOW YOU KNOW THAT. YOU DO know it and he knows it too, It is HIS job to admit it to you, not for you to continually SHOW him how you know he is lying to you.

Tully, Plan B is for YOU. It gives you peace and rest from the drama. It IS true that he may not not come back to you(God Forbid!!), but if he doesn't, it's NOT YOUR FAULT!!! It will be HIS becasue he CHOSE to have an adulterous relationship and CHOSE his selfish indulgences OVER his family. I want to cry as I write those words. Plan B protects whatever love you have left for him. If you allow him back BEFORE you are CERTAIN that the A is over and NC is established, you may WELL end up in a false recovery.

Sometimes the WS does NOT choose recovery. They make up all kinds of excuses WHY, but the simple truth is that they choose CHEATING over FIDELITY.

If mimi is reading your thread, I hope she will chime
in. SHE IS THE EXPERT ON PLAN B!!!!!!!

Tully, recovery is a challenge no matter how it begins. Give yourself and your children the BEST possible chance for TRUE recovery. Don't shortchange yourself.

I have posted the link to Charlotte22's thread below. Worth the read because of what Plan B did for HER.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1959276#Post1959276

Blessings to you and to your loyal family who are helping you through this. We all here understand the pain you feel. It really stinks.

WH2LE

P.S. As I read through my words, I realize that I do not convey the depth of feeling I have. My heart breaks for your WH. He is blinded right now and he can NOT see what he has done. I pray that God opens his eyes QUICKLY!!!!

Sugar, you make a very good case for offering more clarification.

Tully, I think this idea is a very good one. Tell him what, specifically, he would have to do, or to show, before you will speak to him directly. What would he have to do before you would be willing to consider recovering with him?

Not lying about last weekend would be a great start, but I wouldn't mention that specifically. Keep in secret, so when he brings it up on his own, you have some indicator that he's starting to tell the truth.

Once he gets his to-do list, you'll know very quickly if he's serious yet.

Wknghrd,

I do not want what I posted to be misconstrued. I think you have misrepresented what I was asking about tully's situation, and I do not want the posts that follow yours to be based on what you have interpreted, which is not what I said.

I did not say that tully needs to offer WH proof of how she knows about contact. In fact, I specifically said that she need not say how she knows about last weekend.

The suggestion I was making there was that tully calmly state that she knows about the contact and she will not be lied to. Her H has already denied being with OW. Tully could merely state that she has proof, and that is the end of that matter. She will only talk to him when he starts telling the truth.

The point is to say that she KNOWS he is not telling the truth and that is why she not negotiating with him. I cannot see what she has to lose by stating this.

There is also an implication in your post that I am urging tully to get back with WH before she is sure that the affair is over.

Once again, I took pains to say the opposite of this. I am well aware that false recovery is a common phenomenon. I stated in my post that this has happened to me and I do not ever want it to happen to anyone else.

I am not suggesting that if WH does not return it will in any way be tully's fault. Of course it will have been his immoral choice to stick with adultery. I'm saying that he is trying to return now, and that this might be a moment for clear communication. tully could take this opportunity to specify her recovery requirements and tell WH that she is, at the moment, open to restoring the marriage on her terms.

About Plan B, I was saying if WH wants to restore the marriage today, that opportunity should not be ignored. As Dr Harley says, at some point he might get used to living without his family. While personal recovery is a great outcome of Plan B, marital recovery is the goal of this whole programme. Whilst there is nothing that will stop the determined walk-away spouse, tully's H is not that yet.

I'm not encouraging tully to take him back whilst he's still in his affair. Of course not.

I agree with Sugar that it does make sense that tully would provide specific requirements to H. Whatever the requirements are to re-establish contact, it can still be followed up with why tully can't return until her demands are met...her own emotional, mental, and physical health being primary. WH would have to be a complete monster not to see how his actions have hurt tully. He may not yet understand the depth of the pain he has caused but now might be a good time to point it out to him. He can then be reassured that even in spite of everything that tully still has love for him and a desire to recover the M...she just can't do it herself and won't subject herself to a lifetime of more lies and abuse.

WH never thought tully would expose his A, never thought she would leave with the children...surprise, surprise. tully has the opportunity to set firm boundaries and let H know the consequences of breaking those boundaries. It's up to WH on how to respond once it's all spelled out for him.

This is a very interesting situation, but not an uncommon one, where you find a remorseful WS, but you doubt their motivation to return.

When I got to this point I would make demands and he would answer to each of these, and "give in"...for a time...but it seemed the wrong way to do things. Sure, I was getting what I wanted, but he seemed to go along grudgingly.

It wasn't until I learned to say things to him like..."What are you going to do..." that things started turning around.

He wants to take back control of the situation. He wants to dictate the mediator, what you hear and what you don't hear, and to be able to choose whether he tells you the truth and continues his A or not.

The choice should be up to you whether you accept his behavior or not. And the burden of proof is upon him...

I felt it was truly not my responsibility to work hard at getting him to make amends...that job was up to him.

So ask him these questions...

"What are you going to do to prove there is NC?"

"What are you going to do to get your family back?"

"What are you going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again?"

I'm sure you can think of more...

Ask him these, either through a mediator or through your brother. Let him know you will entertain reading a letter if he feels like putting it in writing.

The burden is not upon YOU to make sure there is NC, but upon him. He will be quick to say things like..."If you would only move back," or "If you would believe me." Put EVERYTHING back on him..."What are you willing to do encourage us to move back?" and "How are you willing to show me you are trustworthy?"

ITA. Make him think tully. You don't want to spoon feed recovery to him.

I see tully's WH as being the other way round. I think he lacks remorse but is strongly motivated to return.

My feelings about lack of remorse are based on his statement that he does not see that he has done anything terribly wrong, his refusal to admit that he has been continuing his affair all this time, and his blaming tully for dragging their children into their parents' problems by taking them to France.

If he can deny that he has thrown a hand grenade into his marriage and wrought terrible destruction, he cannot be remorseful. I think that tully faces an unsatisfactory recovery if she reunites with him while he maintains this attitude.

However, I don't doubt his motivation to return. I think he wants his marriage back. He wants to live with, and grow old with, beautiful, intelligent, upstanding, fascinating, mother-of-his-children tully. He does not see a long-term future with the much younger, selfish, marriage-wrecking woman who cares nothing for his children's distress and has no sense of right and wrong. He knows that she will grow bored with him, that she will eventually find his advancing years off-putting, that she will one day look at other clever, fascinating, YOUNGER professors and think "I'm not happy any more, and I should do what makes me happy" and she will leave him. He knows that, whilst OW might have been friends with tully's children a few months ago, to the point of wanting to buy things for the cute littlest one, she will resent them when they grow to hate her for hurting them and their mother, and he will see little of them when they grow to hate visiting him and her in their love nest.

He does not want to end the affair, but he is nonetheless strongly motivated to return to the one guarantee of love and happiness into old age; his marriage to tully.

Quote:

So ask him these questions...

"What are you going to do to prove there is NC?"

"What are you going to do to get your family back?"

"What are you going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again?"

I'm sure you can think of more...

Ask him these, either through a mediator or through your brother. Let him know you will entertain reading a letter if he feels like putting it in writing.

The burden is not upon YOU to make sure there is NC, but upon him. He will be quick to say things like..."If you would only move back," or "If you would believe me." Put EVERYTHING back on him..."What are you willing to do encourage us to move back?" and "How are you willing to show me you are trustworthy?" (end quote)

These are excellent questions, tully. Do it this way.

I have been mulling over this problem today and I've just read your latest responses. I have already reacted (I know I'm impulsive). A good friend rang today - she is the one who lent us their holiday home to go away for a few days shortly before my departure from France - and she suggested that her husband call in to see WH to have a few words with him on the pretext of picking up the keys to the holiday home which we still have. This friend's husband is a very stable, intelligent man who has excellent communication skills (he is sales manager of a large company) He already said to me that he sees this kind of thing all the time in his company and he said very laconically that it always ends the same way - with the guy alone in a bedsit having lost both women. I mentioned this to WH and I know this affected him because he mentioned it several times afterwards.

Anyway, my friend asked for WH's number so that her husband arrange a time and I took the opportunity to ask my friend to pass on 3 messages to WH.
- that I know he is lying about being with OW the weekend before last and that it is pointless to continue lying.
- that I have taken note of his request to reconstruct with me and to have NC with OW but that I would like him to produce a written proposition on how he will achieve this including career, house or country changes if necessary.
- that he should pass this through our mediator or another one he may wish to propose.

She rang me back to say that he said very little, just that he will take time to think about the proposition and send it to me on Wednesday. (I'm curious to see if he includes an apology in it. I'll post it here when i get it.)

My problem is as SHMI and Sugar have both said in more or less the same way: that he is very motivated to return to the home because being with me and the children is the only choice that makes any kind of logical sense but yet he is not particularly remorseful and I think his reasons for wanting to come back are purely selfish. WH is very close to his children and doesn't want to lose them. He knows very well that the most likely outcome from a separation is that I will apply to the court to move back to Ireland permanently with the children where I have family support and a much higher chance of finding a job. This would be very tough on him even if he moves to Ireland too and lives nearby. Also I know that I have been his best and, until OW came along, his only friend. Twice during the early times when he was hesitating between me and OW he said things that confirmed this. Once, in a cry from the heart, he said 'Oh, I'm losing my best friend' and then another time at lunch once he said, out of the blue, 'If I thought that I'd lose you out of my life I could never even contemplate leaving but because we will always have the children in common, I know I'll never lose you.'
Also he knows that everyone in his life will condemn him for leaving us and will not accept OW. Integrating her into his family and friends would be incredibly difficult. Even financially (which is not really a big issue for him but can't be ignored)separation would put big pressure on us as we have 7 people involved (me, WH, OW and 4 children) and 1 decent salary and one peanuts. It would be extremely difficult to run two households on that budget.

So anyway, even he, foggy as he may be, can see that going with OW doesn't make sense on any logical level. But if he comes back and ticks all the boxes for convenience sake, I still find his lack of consideration of my feelings incredible and unbearable. I agree with Sugar that his remorse doesn't run very deep. He can say the words but there is no meaning in them as they are followed up with contradictory actions subconsciously designed to drive me away. It is now over 18 days since I left and in that time he has never taken the opportunity to express any apology for what he has done to the mediator, my brother or anyone else he has spoken to who might have relayed the message to me. This is why his attitude is the real stumbling block I have to reconstruction but it's hard to pin down concrete actions associated with this.

Black raven, the only issue I have with your post is that I am not sure that I do love him any more and I certainly don't miss him. I did love him, very much and I still care enough to feel bad about him suffering. But I think that my feelings have evolved so much throughout this trauma that I don't want to be too dogmatic too soon. Maybe, just maybe if he becomes truely remorseful and understands the pain of what he has inflicted on me then maybe the love might come back. (what do you think?) For the sake of the children, I'd like to think it might but my feeling is that he has destroyed our relationship and now we need to build a whole new one from scratch.

Sugar, I just wanted to refer to an earlier post and say that my fear is not that he will move on and learn to live without me but that I will. Life here is coming together. Friends are rallying round and life is not too bad at all. It's not always perfect from a logistical point of view but well, logistics aren't everything. I can feel that as time moves on I am less inclined to go back and I feel that going to him is a far riskier life-strategy, not that I'm terribly risk-averse. (by the way thanks for all those complimentary adjectives even if none are verifiable)

I have been living in hope of the breakthrough that Neak and BR have been talking about - where the difference is clear and obvious between before and after, where he suddenly becomes the old man I knew and loved and where he falls to his knees, metaphorically at least, and begs for my forgiveness. But will that moment ever come?

Sorry for getting a bit philosophical here. One this is sure that now is not the time for going back. In fact I feel like asking him to give me 5 good reasons why I should go back because I'm not sure I can find any myself.

Sugarcane

Oh, sugarcane, no!!!!!! I in no way meant to misrepresent what you said about Tully's situation. Please believe me.

Truth be told, I did not even get a chance to read your entire post. I just woke up this morning thinking about Tully and came on to post to her.

I merely wanted to point out that it seems to me that everything is going as it often does in Plan B. And that I don't see it as a bad thing. And in my opinion(and that is all it is, my humble, humble opinion), It would be premature to accept his overture of reconciliation. My guess is that he merely wants his needs met(and they ARE legitimate needs)and he is unable to have them all met by the OW.

I only made the comment about things not being her fault because so often, when you are the betrayed spouse, you go over and over and over things in your mind and try to guess what the WS next move is. I am hoping that Tully will be able to "relax" in the understanding that she is doing EVRYTHING right.

Also, on a personal note, if I had felt it necessary to go to Plan B, I don't believe it WOULD have restored my marriage. My H is definitely the "out of sight,out of mind" type. It doesn't sound to me like tully's H is. I could certainly be wrong.

There have been SO many restored marriages though BECAUSE of Plan B, even when there have been LENGTHY seperations, that I feel it can be a GREAT THING.

Sugarcane, I am so sorry that my words gave you even a moment of concern. You are one of Tully's greatest supports and I have nothing but admiration for your words to her.

Blessings,
WH2LE

WH2LE, thanks for this. This is just one of the things that people on this site give me - reassurance that I am not an idiot and that WH is not a monster!
I had a quick look at Charlotte22's thread but it's 244 pages long and I don't get much of a chance to get on here before the evening because of all the pressures and work of the day. I will try to look at it when I have time. To be honest I'm not really worried about coping with a D or of coming out the other side intact as I think I would but more of the terrible fall-out of the D on so many people, principally the children but there are others.

"WH is very close to his children and doesn't want to lose them. He knows very well that the most likely outcome from a separation is that I will apply to the court to move back to Ireland permanently with the children where I have family support and a much higher chance of finding a job. This would be very tough on him even if he moves to Ireland too and lives nearby. Also I know that I have been his best and, until OW came along, his only friend. Twice during the early times when he was hesitating between me and OW he said things that confirmed this. Once, in a cry from the heart, he said 'Oh, I'm losing my best friend' and then another time at lunch once he said, out of the blue, 'If I thought that I'd lose you out of my life I could never even contemplate leaving but because we will always have the children in common, I know I'll never lose you.'"

Tully, this is what I have meant by wanting his needs met. He WANTS what you offer him in the way of meeting his ENs. BUT....he still wants those certain needs that are met by the OW. He has not shown you conclusively that he is ready to give her up. There are certain needs that SHE is totally UNABLE to meet and by being in Plan B, you are demonstrating that for him.

As I have said before, you are fabulous.

Blessings,
WH2LE

LOL!!!!! No, he is not a monster. Just a WS who is lost in the fog. He is EXACTLY like all the WONDERFUL FWS who post here. The man you have known and loved IS in there and he will hopefully show himself soon.

WH2LE

But WH2LE, I'm afraid that he will come back to me but still pine after her and eventually slip back into the notion that he can have both. I now know that she has two very strong reasons for wanting him, the obvious personal one and a professional one in that the feeling in the lab is that her success is down to him. It's this in-between state that I don't want but it's not something I can ask for. What I'm really asking is that he stops caring for her at all and that may never happen.

WH2LE, crossed with you on the last one. Here's hoping!