|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686 |
Sounds like he's going through some SEVERE tully withdrawal? Or is that SUGAR WITHDRAWAL because you refuse to serve him his cake?  Also: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS. DO NOT. I'll say it again just for emphasis. DO NOT REPLY. You've got him on the ropes!
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083 |
Psychological threats and babble.
Your children are not asking him to come get them and take them home. They are asking him to come be with them. And their mother.
Close the email. do not review it again. Send it to your intermediary, with bullet points:
"Tully doesn't read anything that hasn't been filtered by me; the intermediary.
There is nothing in this letter for her to read. If you want direct contact with Tully, she has given you a direct path of instructions on how to do that. I will let her know when you send ME - THE INTERMEDIARY that plan.
Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1 The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"? The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!" If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,150
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,150 |
Tully, I have made some comments in response to the e-mail you received.Hello everyone. You may remember that I passed a message on to WH last Monday saying that I had taken note of his offer (vaguely mentioned to my brother) to have NC with OW and that I was willing to receive an email passed through the mediator explaining how exactly he proposed to cut all contact with career, country or home changes if necessary. I got the following email sent directly to me from a new email address ...My instinct tells me to ignore it and not to reply even through the mediator as he does not deal either with NC or committment to our M but I'd like to know what you think. Tully,
This is going to be a very hard email for me to write because I don't know if I am going to say what you want to hear. I don't really know either where to start from. I suppose it is best to start from the event that pushes me to write this email as opposed to talking to you directly. So, you took the girls and left three weeks ago. I understand from your note and from GF the reasons why you did this. You obviously felt that there was no other solution. However, there are always several ways of doing things and this is just the one you chose. It made me very angry because I think that by doing this, you de facto involved the girls in our problems.So, he thinks the girls were not involved in the mess HE chose to create when HE chose to have an affair? I would have dearly loved to avoid this as I think it could and should have been avoided.THIS IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!!! Yes, HE should have avoided making the choice to have an affair. Anyway, I understand that, as you told me before, you needed to go 'where you feel loved'. You also said once that minding the girls was not exactly an advantage these days. So, it made me first wonder why you took them to Ireland with you. Why not leave them here where they could have continued with school and their friends? Do you think I could not have minded them myself? Yeah, like the ow would have liket that!So, I could be wrong, but I presume that either you need them, or you do not want me to have them. NO WAY!! The girls need a sane parent and if he's not really sane right now and being around him causes you to not be 'in your right mind', they they need to be somewhere where there is more peace in their lives. The first reason is slightly contradictory with you feeling that they added a bit of a struggle to your situation. The second reason would be wrong, I think, and I don't believe you would do that. However, the bottom line is that I have been without them for 3 weeks and I miss them dearly.Then he needs to straighten up and make better decisions!
In fact, the problem linked to you escaping to Ireland with the girls and cutting direct contact with me, is that this has completely focused my attention on my fear to lose my children.Hey, what about your fear of losing your husband to a skanky husband-stealing hussy. This in turn makes me feel that I would do everything to get them back and you can imagine my frustration when every night, they ask me when I will come to bring them back home. I guess that would be some time after he ditches the POSOW husband-stealing hussy and commits to his vows to you.In fact, it is even worse because it has diverted my attention from our relationship and my frustration pushes me to be angry at you.He needs to get a mirror and look in it to see who really caused this mess. I have been telling Isa this very fact from day one insisting that the longer you are away the worse things are getting.This time period is directly related to how long it takes him to end his affair and commit to the marriage. Last week-end was a dreadfully hard blow. I had hoped to see you by coming unexpectedly in order to restore some sort of contact and also to beg you to come home. No mention of commitment to thye marriage.You found out (presumably seeing that I booked air france tickets on the net…) and asked your brother to prevent me from getting into his house.Prevention of entry is the same as keeping an intruder out. He might have been invited in if he'd been honoring his commitment to his wife. My attempt failed and I spent the rest of the evening thinking of my poor situation. Well, he needs to get that mirror and see just who caused this 'poor situation'. Does he think YOUR situation has been excellent throughout his affair?Well, our poor situation I should say. I slept 3 hours that night and I had lots of time to be very frustrated with the way things are. The following day was, in a sense, even worse. Although it was great to have the girls in the morning, their questions were a killer. For the first few minutes, they asked me if I was there to take them back home. Then DD8 asked: 'Papa, why are you in love with OW?'. This destroyed a lot of things in me.Yeah, why is he in love with OW? That is a good question. I would have loved to hear that answer. Since the beginning, I have been thinking that by acting like you did, you involved the girls in what should have remained our 'big people' problems.Which HE created! By telling them that, you put them in the first line of that battle. As if they didn't deserve to know why the had left France.I felt that this was so so wrong and I have to say that I was immensely annoyed with you for that. So, he's annoyed with you? As if he has any rights to be so annoyed?I refrained from reacting, or doing anything for a few days, just so that I would calm down a little. The problem is that again, I feel terrorised at the idea of losing the girls and I am not trying to rebuild our relationship in my head. And they weren't terrorized by his choices and the devastation and anger resulting from them.Worse even, I have now to fight against my feeling of anger and annoyance at you.As if you haven't been fighting for ages. This is so destructive.GET THAT MAN A MIRROR so he can see who REALLY caused this mess. OK, I've run out of desire to continue. Later on he mentions assigning you half the blame if you split up. I DON'T THINK SO!!!! I think this is fog babble. I will admit to not being as qualified to offer advice as some people here. You are right. He doesn't mention No Contact. He doesn't mention extreme precautions to never see this POSOW again. He says he cannot talk through someone else. Cannot is not the same as will not. He can end contact. He can commit to his marriage. He can communicate through the mediator. He just needs to make the choices to do so. Again, can is not the same as will. If you intend to maintain NC, I think any response should go through the mediator. After all, that is how you told him to communicate. He's trying to manipulate you. Tully, there is one thing I've missed in your story. That is, what sort of exposure have you done to their employer(s) since their contact started as professional contact? ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 639
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 639 |
Tully,
As a man familiar with the WS fog-talk, I hope I can offer you some insight as a detached 3rd party observer. I do not know the particulars of your situation (outside of what is obvious in the post) as I am new to this thread. Understand that WH's letter is rife with foggy rationalizations, confusion, and self-serving "woe is me" whining on his part. I will write my interpretations of his "points" in plain text and suggested reactions for you (whether spoken or unspoken) in [brackets]. In reading your WH's letter, following random thoughts come to mind (in roughly the order he put them in as I read it):
WH is annoyed that you took away the kids (and yourself) and thereby removed an element of his "fence-stting" & "cake-eating". He is a little pissed that you are not "going along" with his current arrangement and wants to blame-shift onto you for "separating the family" and making him feel some of the potential consequences of his A.
[WH is the one who is threatening and destroying the family unit via his A...he could be part of the recovery instead of the cause of the distance if he would NC the OW]
WH is really angry about being Plan B'd electronically and geographically. He tells/threatens you that "this is destructive" and keeps him from "focusing on our R in his head"
[Ignore these threats...the major impediment to him "focusing" is the hussy he is hanging with--HE MUST NC for you to stop Plan B'ing]
WH's "analysis of what went wrong" in your M is classic foggy, cart-before-the-horse thinking, incl. the stuff about the "OW had nothing to do with it." He is trying to justify in his own mind and convince you that Tully's "issues" caused the A and mitigate his own responsibility in the process.
[No matter what the the state of the M beforehand, the A is NEVER justified and the A MUST END BEFORE YOUR M'S ISSUES CAN BE TACKLED]
WH seems to be claiming that he can "make progress" on his R with you AND maintain the A at the same time. Classic fence-sitting.
[Hold your ground--WH CANNOT have Tully/family/M and the A at the same time]
WH "is not trying to put the blame on you"
[Yes, he is...the A is the "monster under the bed"]
WH next returns to extreme distress over being Plan B'd; it is getting to him and he wants you to let him cake-eat. The implied and written threat is that you are "pushing him away" and making reconciliation less likely since he is "hurt and angry".
[Plan B ends with NC forever with OW, choice is yours, WH. The A is what is threatening our M, not me "not calling you" or going away for a while.]
WH is rationalizing and guilting you that "the kids shouldn't be part of this".
[WH, the kids ARE part of this because of what YOU ARE DOING---the A! You are kidding yourself if you think that you can continue the A and not damage the kids too.]
I think you are getting to him and he is wavering as he faces the possibility of what he has to lose in the event of D. This is one of the few weapons you have to use to cajole him into DECIDING to give up the OW. He wants still to hang on to both you/kids AND the OW as he makes no promises and does not offer NC.
I leave it some of the vets here to tell you how/if to respond to him. If you do respond, I would keep it short and FIRM--"WH, end the A and go to NC first and THEN we can 'talk' and 'come home' , Tully"
My 2 cents...
xWW:
Secret LTA w/ thrice married OM at her workplace; EA/PA starts ~ 2005-6
Files & completes D - 2007, OM/OMW#3 D - 2007, Affairage - immediately thereafter
Disappears in 2006 w/o even a goodbye to anyone, Never a paragraph of real truth ever spoken
Me/xBH:
M "for life", Suspicions (denied) & desperate Plan A latter-half '06
1st D-day 1/07, full truth D-day 7/08 (all via 3rd parties)
NC w/ xWW 8/08-date, better off w/o unrepentant vileness, betrayal, & rampant deceit in my life anymore
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,584
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,584 |
Tully, my advice would be to ignore the email, and give no response. You set a boundary - mediator-channel only - and he's trying to bypass it. You allow him to slip in the back way this time...and he knows he's got direct contact.
The letter, as I'm sure you're aware, is just one long piece of emotional blackmail, sent from 'Poor me' to 'Bad Tully'. I can't see much sign of remorse or compassion or awareness of the hurt he's caused you. It's all about him. Even by WS standards, it's a bit of a masterclass in selfish entitlement. Was he always this narcissistic, or can we attribute it to fog?
Plan B shows the WS what divorce would feel like, and that's exactly what he's saying to you - 'This feels like being divorced and I don't like it'. Well, what does he think life would be like if you DID divorce him? You and the girls living in the adjoining apartment, with civilised conversation and occasional sex? He's waking up to the fact that you probably would move permanently to your home country, and it's not a pleasant reality.
He's using every leverage tool he can think of, and it's all nonsense. Isn't it astonishing how an intelligent person can warp their thoughts to avoid guilt? The one thing where there's a grain of truth is that the girls probably DO want to get back to familiar surroundings and their friends; there wasn't much time to prepare them for this and they're probably unsettled by not knowing where they belong right now. However, don't let him tug your strings on this; you had a limited number of options while you were in France, and you made the best choice you were able. It's quite likely he thought that your fear of disrupting the girls would keep you there. He's finding that he doesn't have as much leverage and power as he thought, and he doesn't like that.
There's nothing in this mail that addresses your requests. Essentially he's threatening to leave you unless you give him back the marriage under his own terms. He's not offering to negotiate on the issues that matter to you, and he's not asking what he can do to make the marriage safe for you. The fact that he's hurting is not a reason to return to an untenable situation.
{{{{Tully}}}}
TA
"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179 |
fog fog fog blah blah blah fog fog I miss the girls fog but not enough to do what's right fog fog fog blah blah fog fog fog I don't really like Plan B fog fog
There is the summary for anyone who didn't have time to read the whole letter.
Tully, the others are absolutely right. Don't answer this, don't let yourself be drawn in. This is a letter from a man who would very much like to have another false recovery with you.
You'll see a big difference when it's time to take him back.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb Neak's Story
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,016
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,016 |
Tully,
WH is annoyed that you took away the kids (and yourself) and thereby removed an element of his "fence-stting" & "cake-eating". He is a little pissed that you are not "going along" with his current arrangement and wants to blame-shift onto you for "separating the family" and making him feel some of the potential consequences of his A.
[WH is the one who is threatening and destroying the family unit via his A...he could be part of the recovery instead of the cause of the distance if he would NC the OW]
WH is really angry about being Plan B'd electronically and geographically. He tells/threatens you that "this is destructive" and keeps him from "focusing on our R in his head"
[Ignore these threats...the major impediment to him "focusing" is the hussy he is hanging with--HE MUST NC for you to stop Plan B'ing]
WH's "analysis of what went wrong" in your M is classic foggy, cart-before-the-horse thinking, incl. the stuff about the "OW had nothing to do with it." He is trying to justify in his own mind and convince you that Tully's "issues" caused the A and mitigate his own responsibility in the process.
[No matter what the the state of the M beforehand, the A is NEVER justified and the A MUST END BEFORE YOUR M'S ISSUES CAN BE TACKLED]
WH seems to be claiming that he can "make progress" on his R with you AND maintain the A at the same time. Classic fence-sitting.
[Hold your ground--WH CANNOT have Tully/family/M and the A at the same time]
WH "is not trying to put the blame on you"
[Yes, he is...the A is the "monster under the bed"]
WH next returns to extreme distress over being Plan B'd; it is getting to him and he wants you to let him cake-eat. The implied and written threat is that you are "pushing him away" and making reconciliation less likely since he is "hurt and angry".
[Plan B ends with NC forever with OW, choice is yours, WH. The A is what is threatening our M, not me "not calling you" or going away for a while.]
WH is rationalizing and guilting you that "the kids shouldn't be part of this".
[WH, the kids ARE part of this because of what YOU ARE DOING---the A! You are kidding yourself if you think that you can continue the A and not damage the kids too.]
I think you are getting to him and he is wavering as he faces the possibility of what he has to lose in the event of D. This is one of the few weapons you have to use to cajole him into DECIDING to give up the OW. He wants still to hang on to both you/kids AND the OW as he makes no promises and does not offer NC.
I leave it some of the vets here to tell you how/if to respond to him. If you do respond, I would keep it short and FIRM--"WH, end the A and go to NC first and THEN we can 'talk' and 'come home' , Tully"
My 2 cents... Man that's good stuff! Great interpretation!
Me-39 H-38/Married 19years/DD18 & DS10
Dday EA/PA 4/23/08 Left home 5/08/08
Moved in w/Sea Hag 08/01/08
Read SAA Sept 08 Plan A 10/03/08 thru 11/15/08
Plan B 11/15/08-currently
01/18/09 Plan B crack w/phone call restating PBL
01/31/09 Planned brief contact
02/15/09 Delivery of Planned 2nd PBL
Filed for D Dec 2009 Recovering well!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 520
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 520 |
Totally agreee with EVERYTHING everyone has said about the letter. I especially liked the comment from TA about this letter being a masterclass in selfish entitlement. P.E.R.F.E.C.T.
Tully, take all the advice given to you here about this letter. YOU are a crucial juncture because he has managed to slip through a crack and get to you. He, however is NOT at a crucial juncture yet. He is just spouting more of the same.
Plan B is doing for HIM exactly what it should be doing, but it it is not yet doing that for you becasue there has been too much contact.
This is the hard place for you. A time when you might be tempted to give in. DON'T!!!!!
More later.
Blessings,
WH2LE
WH2LE
BS(Me)-57
FWH-54
Married-5/26/2001(2nd for me, 1st for him)
DS-30
DD-27
D-Day-05/31/2007
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,247
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,247 |
Tully --
He is masterfully trying to manipulate you!
Your letter was beautiful, and explained everything to him. You do not need to justify yourself to him. Its all been said.
This is just an effort by him to get what he wants. More of the same. You back home, girls convenient to him, and OW on his terms.
There is nothing in that letter for you. Nothing that should warm your heart. He's trying to play on your fear.
He's trying to make you afraid that this move of yours is causing him to contemplate divorce. So what?
He should be the one afraid. Afraid that his actions have pushed you too far. There is only the slightest acknowledgement of his culpability in that letter. Mostly he wants to shift the blame to you.
This letter probably will drain your lovebank further as you consider his words and his selfish nature.
(((HUGS))))
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 511
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 511 |
Thank you all very much for your insightful comments. I agree with you all. I particularly dislike his attempt to place the blame for the A on me. He says that the problem was with me and him and had nothing to do with OW and that the main problem was that I was so pushy, forcing him to have all those 'heavy' conversations which turned him off. What he doesn't mention is that most of those conversations were about how our relationship was disimproving and my attempts to get it back. He refused completely to discuss any problems we might have had in our relationship and IMO he sought and created problems just to justify his A. If I agreed with his analysis of the cause of the A then I would never go back into the M because he is basically saying that I drove him away simply by being myself.
However, I think the problem is a combination of a severe mid-life crisis plus the opportune presence of a hero-shipping, attractive bimbo although I do acknowledge that we had been spending less time together over the past few years due to the pressures of raising 4 small children with no family support.
Anyway, I did consider replying through the mediator but I decided in the end that I have nothing to say in response and so I think the best thing is to say nothing at all.
I had hoped that there would have been a crack in his selfishness by now but maybe he needs to go rock bottom in order to do that.
Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.
Maya Angelou
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 639
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 639 |
I had hoped that there would have been a crack in his selfishness by now but maybe he needs to go rock bottom in order to do that. Tully, Everything I have read says that these WSs usually do need to hit "rock bottom" before they take that proverbial "hard look in the mirror" and come to some responsible self-realizations.
xWW:
Secret LTA w/ thrice married OM at her workplace; EA/PA starts ~ 2005-6
Files & completes D - 2007, OM/OMW#3 D - 2007, Affairage - immediately thereafter
Disappears in 2006 w/o even a goodbye to anyone, Never a paragraph of real truth ever spoken
Me/xBH:
M "for life", Suspicions (denied) & desperate Plan A latter-half '06
1st D-day 1/07, full truth D-day 7/08 (all via 3rd parties)
NC w/ xWW 8/08-date, better off w/o unrepentant vileness, betrayal, & rampant deceit in my life anymore
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686 |
With your WH's track record I fear there may not be a rock bottom til he has an OC....
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179 |
Wow,  Karmasrose , that was a cheery thought. Tully needs to interrupt her Plan B to worry about whether the WH she is no longer fretting about will knock up the OW. :RollieEyes: Tully, carry on as planned.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb Neak's Story
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 511
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 511 |
What's an OC, Karmarose? Or do I really want to know? 
Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.
Maya Angelou
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108 |
Nice guilt trip from WH... :RollieEyes: It's amazing how warped a waywards mind must become to spew that crap. Now, I am completely lost with what I feel. In fact, I go from one extreme to the other 10 times a day. Well welcome to a BS's world. Too many WTFs to point out but this one caught my eye: Although my attitude did not show the motivation you expected, I was making progress in my head.  Ignore the letter as others have advised. That garbage isn't even worth a response unless Plan FO was underway. Your silence will speak volumes! As for the girls questioning their Wdad about OW...good. WH KNOWS someday when the girls are grown and can understand all this that he will look like a POS in their eyes especially if he wants to end the M. WH's actions will speak for themselves and he knows it. My DD brought up OW's name a few days ago and my H looked ill.  A good dose of reality...kisses to my DD. OC = other child (born of A) I don't think that is WH's intentions. That would be the ultimate to make his DDs and others think tully was 10,000% correct to leave him and take the girls. In plan B, are AO and DJs from others okay? Someone needs to 2x4 WH HARD and hasten his descent to the bottom.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686 |
I didn't say tully's WH would MEAN to make an OC nor was I suggesting she break Plan B.
I simply fear that by the time he gets "back on board" for the marriage (if Plan B continues to work in the way it seems to be working) there MIGHT be an OC.
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,247
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,247 |
I think everyone knows what you meant Karma.
Just not sure how adding that fear to Tully's list helps her.
???
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179 |
Why even bring it up? I mean, it's a risk in ANY affair where the parties are fertile, which is most of them.
Why would you want to try and stir fear in Tully over something like that?
You remind me of someone I know.
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb Neak's Story
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,686 |
I was trying to bring it up in a "all the more reason to stick to Plan B, so THIS won't happen" way.
I often seem to word things improperly, I apologize.
One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger
I will not spend my life this way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,108 |
I hear ya. I didn't take it that way and maybe should have worded my response differently.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
305
guests, and
54
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Children
by BrainHurts - 10/19/24 04:02 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,613
Posts2,323,450
Members71,883
| |
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
|
|
|
|
