I never said WH should be guilted. The cold hard truth is a 2x4. Maybe we are talking apples and oranges here but I don't know if any seeds are planted in WH's mind before tully left or if there's some many layers of crap in his head that they will never sprout until it is too late. None of this has to be in writing either and tully can still stay dark.

SDCWman and black raven, I do hope that a few judiciously applied 2x4s might have a good impact but I talked and talked so much for 10 weeks before I left and nothing I said had any impact. He might have been temporarily swayed by some discussions but then he would backpeddle a short while afterwards.

Sugar, your post bothered me. You have been such a positive and encouraging supporter of my M that to see you now asking questions like this makes me feel that you might have lost hope in our future. You didn't mention anything about the email sent by WH. Do you think this is a hopeless case? I do know that I can't go back into the M the way he is right now and if that means losing him then that's what has to be. Do you not think that he might still change? Is there an average length of time for Plan B?

Several of you have mentioned that he is obviously not ready to let go the A but I'm not sure that this is the problem. Of course he could be still with her but she is living in Ireland now and he is in France. The last two weeks he came to see the girls he stayed locally so couldn't have seen her then. He could have stayed with her the day before or the day after and I have no proof either way but he is claiming to everyone who will listen that it is totally over between them and that he is not in touch with her. Is he lying or is he resisting making the committment to our M out of pride and stubbornness and an inability to call into question his own actions and attitude. Does this make a difference to your opinions about Plan B?

tully,

I only have a moment now, but I will post again on this.

I'm sorry my post bothered you. I have not changed my positive feelings about your marriage one iota. I did not mention the email because for a few days I could not get on the thread, and when I did I saw that there had been many wise comments. I only had a moment yesterday also, so I posted about something that has been bothering me for some time, that your H's comments brought back to mind.

That is that a check of your legal position might be in order. If Ireland is anything like England, this time limit thing could cause problems for you. (Actually, when I studied politics years ago, Ireland had no divorce. I'm sure that's changed!)

Your H's email bothered me a lot because of its irrationality and all the blame-shifting things that others have mentioned, but also because of his certainty that the children belong in France. I don't now where he will go with this.

I think your position is more complicated than that of many because of the international situation and the children's nationality.

I got a shock when I checked English law and found that there was a time limit for adultery citation. I can explain my worries about this later, but my point is, what is the situation for you?

Contrary to what my post might have made you think, I'm with StillHereMakingIt on what the email reveals about your H's state of mind. He wants the marriage badly, and he is begging you to go home. As I said several posts ago, there is an opportunity here and I'm worried that it is being missed in the 'do not respond' advice. However, I'm a newbie with an unsatisfactory recovery and I did not want to contradict others.

This is all very muddled, I know. I must go now, but I'll try and come back later.

In this situation, you want so badly for things to work out that you may accept less and find out later you were sold a damaged bill of goods.

You have competing forces within you, your desire/hope and your gut.

Both have a very important place right now. Your desire and hope are keeping you holding on to the love you have, the M you will have, and the hope things will be better.

Your gut is telling you what is true and what isn't. If you are questioning his actions...listen to your gut.

At the most, he is going through withdrawal. If that is the case, now is a great time for you to be out of the way. Withdrawal can be a very hurtful time for the BS. At the worst, he may still be in contact and *trying* to end it with the OW. That is more likely the case. There is probably continued contact via phone, text, and email. If there were no more contact between them, then WH would fight harder for his family. His guilt keeps him away.

Think about it for a minute. He says he is devoted to his family and tells people he wants his family, but what do his actions show you. And trust me, if the man is not a wordsmith, his actions will not lie...

Do not accept too little, do not let your want and hope lead you into something your gut is questioning.

If you are worried he would give up the M if you do not go back now, that somehow your presence will enliven his love for you, then his love is too tenuous to trust anyway.

When it happens you will know it.

That, tully, that you said. You see it too. He is not with her as he could be, and he has not chosen her over you.

Isn't there something there that should be grasped?

I wrote about divorce because I thought YOU were giving up. I deduced wrongly and posted about divorce at the wrong time, for which I'm sorry.

However, I don't think HE has given up yet, and I don't want him to. I'll be corrected for saying this, but there is still too much in your marriage to let it go in non-response.

SMHI, that's exactly right. For various complex reasons I would like our M to get back on a solid footing and to make it work. But I also desperately want to avoid a false recovery.

Sugar, just to answer a few points. I got married in France so I suppose that it's a French divorce I would get if it were to come to that. The girls are of French nationality and have always lived in France. If we did divorce, I know that I would like to live in Ireland for several reasons; it is difficult enough to cope with raising 4 children in a foreign country without any family nearby but it would become next to impossible to do it if I were divorced and alone. I have lots of family nearby here who would be involved and would help us in every way they can. Also I have been a stay-at-home mum for 6 years now and the experience I had before that wouldn't count for a lot in France as I was self-employed for 4 years and worked for a company for 2 years that no longer exists. I know that my chances of getting a decent job and being independant would be much, much easier in Ireland. WH would probably be legally bound to support me financially but it would eat me up alive to be dependant on him. I didn't have a problem with not working as long as we were a team and I felt that I was doing the right thing for the family as a whole. I would feel very isolated and alone in France although living there was not a problem at all before.

I suspect that I would have a good chance of getting the full care of the children because he is the one who is at fault, I have given up my career to look after them, they are girls so the court tends to prioritise the mother's role and finally WH has a much better chance of getting work in Ireland than I have in France.

You talk about letting this M go through non-response but I did open the door to direct communication when I told him that I would accept an email outlining how he would implement NC with OW. He then sent the email above where he doesn't talk about it at all and it is full of stuff that makes me totally sure that I could not possibly remain in a M with a man with that attitude. I am having a big doubt about the future in that I'm starting to doubt whether I have been deluded about WH in the past - did he always have this strong selfish streak that I minimised before? I believe that if I went back to him in his current frame of mind, I would just be setting myself up for a year or two (if that) of misery and pain before a final break-up which would be destructive to me, him and, above all, the girls. I also have another fear, that a few years later it would be impossible to impose a country move on the girls and I would be trapped in France, in a deeply unhappy situation, all because I couldn't possibly leave the country without them.

Sorry for exposing all my doubts and fears here as I'm sure it's not the time or place to worry about this kind of stuff but it seems to me that the risk of going back into this M is particularly high for me in my circumstances and I need to be so sure that it's right before I take that risk.

"I am having a big doubt about the future in that I'm starting to doubt whether I have been deluded about WH in the past - did he always have this strong selfish streak that I minimised before? I believe that if I went back to him in his current frame of mind, I would just be setting myself up for a year or two (if that) of misery and pain before a final break-up which would be destructive to me, him and, above all, the girls. [/quote]
Tully, this is one of my fears, too. My WH was a good husband and dad and any lack always seemed something that could be worked on. I don't understand fully what caused him to do what he's done, but I'm afraid of R and afraid of him saying he has no interest in R after Plan B -- he doesn't seem to care if I'm around or not.
I'm so afraid for my ability to be in a healthy situation -- I chose him, I did not see any alarms. My WH lives close and sees the two younger kids regularly (DD12 will not go with him), so he can't say I'm using the kids against him (like in idey58, 2M2L, where seeing the kids has been more difficult due to WH's unwillingness to work with IM), but I wonder if he'd fight B more if the kids were part of the distance.
Feeling very sad for myself and not sure if it helps you, but I just want you to know that all those doubts and fears you expressed (on both sides)are what we BS's go through...It sucks and I can't imagine tonight wanting WH back after all he's done. But, hey, wait 5 minutes and I might feel completely different!!!
BF439

Don't let Sugar's post about divorce rattle you. I think I brought up looking into your legal rights back when Plan B was being planned. It never hurts to know and can give you some peace of mind if you are worried about finances should you decide to go with Plan D one day even if it's years from now.

As far as the 2x4s...I'm sorry if I don't remember specifics from previous conversations but was there ever anything that gave WH pause to think and if so what was it? He already cringes that the children know of OW...was how his children view him ever brought up?

BF, I read your 'confused' thread and posted on it. It's awful what we are going through and to think that it is being caused by the person we loved and trusted most in the world. I know what is keeping me going is the support of the MBers here who make me see that WH is not unique and that this is a process that can be understood and followed.

Good luck and I hope everything works out well for you in the end.

black raven, during the time between Dday and leaving for PB (10 weeks), I talked and talked to WH and sometimes I did get the impression that I was getting through on various issues like the kids or the pain he caused me. The problem is that it never lasted. He always backtracked. He keeps saying to people that he has apologised several times to me (which he has) except that he erased all the good of that apology by following them up with cruel and insensitive actions and words.

I am in a difficult situation in that the children want me to go back to France and WH even though it would be impossible for me right now. He has convinced everyone around including them that it's over with OW (throughout the time he persists in saying 'but it's over between us' every time I asked for NC as if that was the same thing - it drives me crazy that a supposedly intelligent man can keep doing that)and that he wants back into the M. Once he said to me that he loves his kids so much that he would be prepared to stay even with someone he hates. Well, I can't.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to book a phone session with one of the Harleys to ask for advice. I had already thought that if I start talking to him directly then I would ask him to have 4 or 5 joint sessions with the Harleys before I would consider going back to France. The only problem with that is that if I talk to him too soon before he is ready then we may be on the inevitable road to D if he doesn't change his attitude.

tully,

I've been following your story these past two months, and I've been awed by your strength. Even through the issues of geography and your friend not completely understanding what Plan B means, you have remained stalwart. Your WH would be a fool not to see the light in time to salvage the best thing that ever happened to him.

I wanted to address the question you and bestfriend raised about wondering if your WH's were never the men you thought they were, and if you were duped in the beginning.

THEY WEREthe good, loving, decent men you fell in love with. They have just allowed themselves to get caught up in something bigger than even they can understand. Good men who took a terrible wrong turn. It is likely they will both "come out of it" at some point and be horrified at what they have done, not only to you and your children, but to their own lives as well.

Whether they see the light in time for you to want them back remains to be seen, but once they shake loose from the devil (which is what I have come to believe this giving into temptation is all about), their world will change as much as yours has. They will never feel what you've felt, but they will suffer greatly.

This tragedy will be difficult to overcome, but it CAN be done. So many of us here have done it.

I, too, wondered if my husband was the devil incarnate, and thought maybe I was just too young and innocent to recognize it when I married him. Wasn't true. He DID have a "dark side" but that just made him human. He hurt me in all the ways yours has hurt you, but he ultimately came to his senses, and "horrified" was the word he used to tell me how he felt about what he'd done.

Our marriage will never be the same, and neither will yours, but it can be better in so many ways. We will always be the "sadder but wiser girls." There are worse fates than that.

Stay strong. You are in my prayers.

Right Here Waiting

tully,

One more quick explanation about my 'divorce' post.

I really mishandled timing that post and again, I apologise.

It was prompted partly, as I said, because I thought you were giving up, but also by your H’s comments in his email. I’ve mentioned what he said about the girls belonging ‘at home’, but he also said that he was thinking that being properly separated would give him a better deal than he has now.

Quote:
Concerning the future, I am reaching a stage where I ask all relevant people how to deal with kids in case of a separation. I am now imagining my life away from you and how I would deal with seeing the girls much less. In fact, last week-end, I though separating would be a much better option that what I am going through now. This is because if I was clearly separated, I could organise something much more structured, much better to see the girls. (End quote.)

I was worried that he might be thinking of legal remedies and I thought that you should explore your legal rights soon.

You didn’t say whether he went to Ireland last weekend (29th/30th).

I will be back soon.

Hi Sugar, please don't apologise. You have been a wonderful friend and I appreciate so much your concern. You are right to advise me to be wary but it's just that I thought 'oh, no, if even Sugar has given up...'

Yes, he did come over last weekend and before I got his email I had already organised for him and the girls to stay in a self-catering apartment belonging to a friend who gave an excellent price. I did this because i wanted them to be together and spend proper time together instead of wandering around shops and amusement areas. He arrived at 1am on Sat and dropped them back at 11am on Sunday. I don't know if he stayed with OW or if he saw her. He is very angry with me because I told him through the mediator that we were going away for a long weekend this weekend so he couldn't see the girls. They have a half day tomorrow and Monday off. A friend who lives by the sea and has children of the same age invited us to stay and I thought it would be good for all of us. The problem is that it's the twins birthday on Monday (8th) and he sees this as another vindictive act by me. However we can't afford anyway him coming over every weekend. I'd prefer if he came less frequently and stayed with them for longer.

RHW, thanks for that. It's hard to hold on to belief when right now the man I see is not one I could possibly spend the rest of my life with but you are right. Some day he will revert but I'm scared it might be too late.

Sugar, meant to say that I don't believe WH when he threatens D on me. It's all posturing. There's no way he will do that but nevertheless I don't appreciate these veiled threats 'if you don't come home right now, I might do something you'll regret...'

I think scheduling a phone appt with the Harley's is a good idea. Perhaps you can have one alone with them and then invite WH to join in the next, or a phone appt with all of you together to get things rolling would be best.

Although you have talked with him, coming from the Harley's it will be like hearing it for the first time for him...

This would be a good compromise and they can reassert what you have asked for and why.

And if he refuses, then you have your answer...he's not ready yet.

He knows deep down what needs to be done. The fact he is not doing it is a clue that he is still in contact with the OW.

SMHI, so are you saying that I should come out of Plan B?

The phone counselling would be the single best thing you could do. You are trying to follow the MB plan after all. What better source of advice could there be than the horses' mouths?

I'm really bothered about whether and how you should convey any more information to WH, and whether you should respond to his attempts to get you home.

My first ever post on this board was attempting to say that the books HNHN and SAA need a bit more information, and I think that Plan B is one of the areas that need clarification.

In the books, Dr. Harley doesn't actually say that the BS must not communicate anything at all , even via the mediator, until the WS indicates that the affair is ended.

I might get slapped for saying this (and if so, I'll take it like a woman!) but I don't quite see why you cannot respond -very coldly and calmly- to the email saying that, whilst H asks you to go home he does not say anything about NC being established. The fact that he blames the decline in his feelings on you being you (as you put it, tully) and does not say a word about still loving you, nor a word of apology, does not give you a basis on which to want to rebuild. You do not understand the basis on which he wants to rebuild, if he feels no love and little or no remorse. If the marriage is not restored, you see no reason why you should return to live in France, where you have little prospect of building a career, and no family. The reason for your living in France is because you were married to him; that reason would no longer exist if you were to divorce. He cannot expect you to live an isolated, financially insecure life in France after his choice to have an affair. His losing close contact with his children would be the sad outcome of the choice he made when he decided to enter an affair. He cannot expect you to return to a marriage in which he expresses no love and no commitment to anti-affair behaviour forever and ever.

What would be wrong with conveying that through the mediator?

I'm sure someone will tell me!

Tully and Sugar,

I have to admit that I am a bit confused about what the right answer is for contact during Plan B also. That said, I do feel strongly about Plan B protecting the remaining love you have for the wayward. If you continue to have contact during PB even through the mediator then the drama continues and there are very real chances of the LB continuing to be drained. Especially right now where Tully is already in a dangerous place with her thoughts about continuing and WH still seems to be very foggy. I think if Tully was feeling better about a future recovery and WH was much less foggy then contact would be less of a risk. I guess you have to decide Tully, do you think contact at this point will have a positive effect on WH and is it worth the risk of what more fog babble can do to your feelings moving forward?

Keep in mind, I am no expert and I didn't do PB myself so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. Just something to consider.

Still here pulling for you Tully!!

Mindshare

I did not recover my M via MB tactics but I wonder about this too Sugar. Not every solution is cookie cutter so just saying Go Darker isn't always the answer. Yes, Plan B will protect tully from more hurt in one way but it creates more anxiety another. I know tully has said she talk and talk to WH during those 10 weeks before Plan B started but sometimes the delivery is where the impact comes from.

tully, I'm not saying your delivery was ineffective and that WH was merely too proud and defensive with what you had to say. I know that when I tell my H something it can go in one ear and out the other with little response and then someone else (or even me) says the exact same thing with a different delivery and it's then a WOW light bulb moment in his mind. Does that make sense? I even see it here in MB posts. Some posters don't mince words, others are more eloquate, and some are both but know how and when to deliver the message effectively depending on the situation.