What I would suggest is make an appt with the Harley's, either ask them what would be best or just talk with them alone. You can let them know you are in Plan B. Often they will talk with one spouse or another and ask the other for privacy.

Then pass a message to WH through the intermediary and tell him if he would like, you have scheduled a marriage phone counseling session and he is welcome to join in. Through the intermediary you can give details.

Is joining together in a phone session with the Harley's breaking Plan B? It depends on how much he tries to talk directly to you.
Or you can set up the appt and leave it up to the Harley's about what conversation you will have together. I suspect they will talk with you both for a few minutes, then talk with one of you alone for awhile.

Anyone who has experienced this chime in?

Well, I have been thinking and here's a tentative plan (although as GF said above, I reserve the right to change my mind every 5 minutes) I think mindshare is right in his analysis. My LB is in danger and I do think that direct communication with WH puts us on a path towards a decision one way or the other whereas Plan B allows us to stay in limbo for a lot longer and given WH's frame of mind this might be better for the moment.

I was thinking of taking an appt on my own with one of the Harleys next week to ask for advice. Then I might stay in Plan B as dark as possible (unless I get convinced otherwise) until after Christmas. Maybe Christmas without us might give WH the shock he needs although on the other hand his reaction seems to be systematically to get angry and blame me for everything so that might backfire. I'll let you know what the Harleys have to say.

SHMI, I suppose I could ask WH to have a session with the Harleys on his own without breaking Plan B in the hope that they would make him see sense. I know that he will resist very strongly because he hates the telephone even at the best of times but you never know.

(I'd love to know what Neak has to say. Are you out there, Neak?)

My thought on this is that it is a learned response, a childhood behavior that got him what he wanted without him having to learn to be contrite or modest. In other words, if you're angry, you never have to admit you've done anything wrong. IMO, the only time I've seen anything work around here is when the WS hits rock bottom and is willing to confess his/her sins to the world and give up that hope for protecting his image; even if it's just in front of his kids.

I wouldn't trust a single WS until they are willing to admit to everyone they meet what they have done. And anger has no place in that.

Tully, I'd be interested to know how your husband behaved in the past (pre-A) when he needed your co-operation or acquiescence on something.

Was he in the habit of negotiating, of accepting your right to disagree, and looking for ways to make the 'thing' more acceptable to you?

I ask because it's not easy to work out whether he's making use of a well-worn technique of getting his own way (essentially threats, bullying and/or trying to make you feel bad about his pain), or whether he's behaving in an out-of-character way because he's really frightened. It's fairly standard for people who're faced with two unpleasant choices, to look to avoid the choice by forcing someone else to back down on a boundary.

And he really does have two seriously unpleasant choices, doesn't he? I think he may be in a worse position than many WHs here. For some, NC is a relatively simple process - a few things to do with email addresses and phones. For your WH,it means potentially destroying a whole academic career and being shamed in front of a professional peer group. That's a little more devastating than just changing jobs, I would think. Of course, it's his own stupid fault for getting involved with someone in his own academic sphere, but his panic will not allow him to think of that yet.

He'll also be in that idiotic state that so many WSs are in - where they OP has fed them so much seductive nonsense that their sense of entitlement is hilariously inflated. It can take a LONG time before a sense of reality filters through.

But he may just be like this, as Catperson suggested. It may be his standard way to deal with a situation where he knows he's in the wrong.

But you know him; we don't. What do you think?

TA

Thank you catperson and TA, I don't have time right now to write a properly considered answer to your question. My H was never a bully and didn't impose his point of view but he was emotionally quite dependant on me. He has a really big problem with negative emotions and avoids them to an unhealthy degree. His tendancy is to back away from painful emotions even to the point of abandoning a loved one or good friend to deal with that painful situation alone. I know this is an extremely difficult situation for him because whichever way he turns he is faced with serious negative emotions and can't escape. If he manages to make the right decisions and face up to them then i think he will come out of this experience a much better, stronger person but I'm not 100% confident in his ability to do so. He doesn't have a lot of experience in this field (I have much more than him) and he doesn't have me with him to help him either.

He has always tended to blame others, mainly me, when things go wrong even things that are a twist of fate. His knee-jerk reaction to mislaid keys is to turn to me and say where did you put them or if we get caught out in a thunderstorm - why didn't you plan for this? He is no good at empathy and tends not to question himself in a difficult situation - the blame is always turned outwards. This sounds like a major criticism of him and he doesn't sound very lovable but he has lots of other good qualities.
Catperson definitely has a point in that his mother has always put her 2 sons and husband on pedestals and sacrificed herself to the point of being a doormat. She is over the moon when one of them shows the least amount of appreciation or affection as if she is starved of it. I have learned to like her a lot over the years but sometimes it's a bit pathetic. I am absolutely not my MIL and I don't think H wanted me to be but this experience of the past year has made me question even the most basic of my assumptions in life.
I'm off for a long weekend. I'll probably be able to check in a couple of times over the next few days but it might be a bit erratic.

Thanks for all these ideas. Food for thought.

Tully xx

Hello friends, we just got back from our long weekend away as the girls had no school today. We had a very nice time with friends and I think the girls enjoyed it. I am not really myself though so it's not always easy.

We got back around 4pm today and as it is the twins birthday I called my MIL and passed her on to them so she could say happy birthday. At the end she asked to speak to me again and she brought up the old conversation of 'if I had made a decision about coming to them for Christmas' (which is what was originally planned.) She rang a week or so ago and basically said 'so what day do you think you'll be arriving for Christmas' I have stayed firm saying that until WH cuts all contact definitively with OW then I will not go to them and as he obviously is not prepared to do this then I cannot go. She said 'But all he wants is to talk to you'. I said there's nothing to discuss because either he cuts contacts or it's divorce, it's as simple as that. She then proceeded to say that she wanted to spend Christmas with her grandchildren. I said sorry but it won't be possible given the circumstances so she said 'Then I will come and bring them back by plane for Christmas' I said no you won't so she then said 'so you're going to deny me that right?' This was when I lost my temper. I shouted at her to stop right there, that she had overstepped the limits, that they were my children and that she had no rights over them and then I slammed down the phone.

Previously I swallowed my anger when she blamed me for the marriage breakdown because often he has has to set the table or do other small tasks (which he is not complaining about by the way) when he comes in in the evening and when she said that taking the children away without saying goodbye to their father was 'unforgiveable' and all her comments about how this all must stop because it's affecting her health and all kinds of other nasty comments but her assumption that she has the right to come and take my children away from me for Christmas was beyond my self-control.

This is such a horrible situation that I'm in. I'm so fed up with everything. Everyone he is in touch with seems to think that me leaving France with the children without telling him is so dreadful that it cancels out any bad thing he may have done. Please could someone tell me I'm not a bad person and prop me up right now?

Tully:

You are doing what you are supposed to. Plan B seems to be working...

I mean, if his MOTHER is coming apart at the seams, odds are he is too.

I'm glad you had a nice weekend but I could choke your MIL. You are in no way a bad person tully. Just the opposite. Your MIL had a lot of nerve but you handled it and it's over. She is in denial and wants to make you the villian instead of her wayward son. If you want MIL to speak with the girls, I'd advise that you let one of your family members handle the calls from now if that's her attitude.

Did the twins speak with WH?

Black raven, I have decided to do exactly that. I will not speak to MIL on the phone any more. But I was thinking of writing to her (I had planned to send a Christmas present from the girls anyway so I could add a short letter) to say that I still feel that she overstepped the mark but that this doesn't excuse me for getting so angry. (If only I had been cool and calm.) At the moment I don't particularly care about her but it might be important to preserve the future, if there is one.

And yes, WH did speak to the twins this evening. We tried to call him several times over the weekend and he wasn't there so I'm not sure if he went away or not. He's coming over next weekend but no details through the mediator as of yet.

Sorry, KR, meant to say thanks for the vote of confidence.

Tully, your MIL seems to have been always a bit of a doormat, avoiding conflict or pain over the enforcement of boundaries with the men in her life. It's therefore not much of a surprise that she's crumbling under this pressure, is it? I'll bet that she's getting wall-to-wall grief from your WH, and is passing the pressure onto you as quickly as possible.

Obviously, as a grandmother, she's fearful that the breakdown of the marriage would mean the loss to her of her relationship with her grandchildren - she's probably wondering if she'll ever see them again, don't you think? When people are scared they act in all sorts of awful ways.

The fact that you left France without goodbyes has doubtless been shocking to everyone. (Including the girls, let's be honest.) It was a fairly dramatic exit. Your alternative option was to stay in France but ask WH to leave the family home, which would have left you coping in a foreign country without family support, but would have allowed the girls to stay in familiar surroundings. Was there a reason you didn't want to do that, beyond exhaustion and wanting the comfort of your family?

I must confess that I'm concerned about the girls. One minute they had a life in France, and now they're living in someone else's house, without their familiar bedrooms, toys, playmates and surroundings, and no way of knowing if they will ever see them again. I think they must be more than a bit confused and insecure.

Of course, chances were always high that they would end up in Ireland anyway, if WH continued to be a fool and you were forced to pull the plug on the whole thing. The difference would have been that it was a managed transition, with time to help the girls with the emotional separation.

So I think that people DO have a point in feeling negative about your abrupt departure, but only in connection with the children. And I don't think that's what they're concerned about. Your WH is emitting 100-decibel distress in every direction...I'm trying my best...I don't understand...I miss the girls...', and for some reason people always almost react to that kind of distress with an urge to reassure and comfort, and project blame onto the person 'responsible' for all that noisy hurt. It baffles me, but it happens all the time that people are affected by the loudest emotions. You're not screaming with pain, so their sympathies are going towards your WH. Daft. Ignore them. This is not a contest for people's sympathy.

I think it would be worth having your intermediary ask WH for clarification as to what he THINKS you're asking for in order to consider resuming the marriage. He's managed to avoid that issue pretty slickly up to now.

TA

TA, the main reason I didn't ask WH to leave for Plan B is that he would have refused and even if he did leave eventually (and I went to see a solicitor who told me that there was no legal recourse to make him leave) then a dark Plan B would have been impossible. Even here in Ireland he tried to enter my brother's house forcibly to talk to me, a dark PB in France would have been impossible, there is no way I could lock him out of the house and refuse to him entry while the girls were listening to his pleas. Also I was afraid that this would put us into more of a divorce situation which would have been difficult for the girls to deal with. At least here, I have told them that this is a temporary situation while we give dad time and space to deal with problems. I don't want to imply that they are very upset, they're not, the main thing is that they miss their friends but I'm not sure that we could reconstruct anyway in the very small village we live in. I think we'd need to move house to allow us a fresh start.

In Ireland they went to this school for 3 weeks already in Feb of this year (to improve their English) so it's not totally new to them. They also have lots of aunts, uncles and cousins and my friends making a fuss of them and that helps a lot. It also gives me a huge level of support. Anyone from France who has spoken to the girls on the phone can hear that they are in reasonably good form although they do miss their friends. I honestly don't think I could go back and cope alone with both the physical and emotional strain. I have friends in France but it's not the same as my family here.

PS, I meant to say, TA, that I get the impression that most people's sympathy is for him rather than the girls. The girls are happy on the whole but it's not an ideal situation all the same. Although maybe they are bottling things up or I am blinding myself to the situation. I'll be more aware of any signs of distress.

Tully,

You are most definitely NOT a bad person!!! You're MIL severly over-stepped her bounds and had it coming. I'm glad that you had the strength to stand up to her!

That said, I'm not at all surprsied by MIL. It's much of the same in many families. She is just not going to admit that her precious son has brought about this horrible situation. She may lay some blame at his feet but she is finding it easier to focus much of the blame on you. You are an easy target compared to having to admit that her son is an adulterer and a liar and has virtually destroyed his family. No easy admission for any mother. I totally agree that she should now become part of your Plan B also. She is adding much un-needed drama to your situation right now.

And, for the record, I disagree completely with TA. I understand the concern that TA is raising but I've been with you for quite a while on this thread and I totally agree that going to Ireland was the best possible situation for you.

Stay strong!

Mindshare

I felt I owed that much to you, tully.

Anyway, perhaps their sympathy is because they KNOW the girls are fine, but your WH as I said before is likely going nuts without his tully there.

They can't see the girls, all they can see is your WH. Out of sight out of mind after all.

Thank you both.
Mindshare, you have been so supportive but in an intelligent, questioning sort of way and I really appreciate that. I know you won't say something just to make me feel better.

KR, if only! I think what he's saying to all and sundry is that he misses his daughters desperately but nothing about me!

Meant to say that I sent an email today to the Harleys to schedule a session. I hope it will happen this week but I'll let you know how I get on.

I don't think you owe MIL an apology, more like the other way around. Let her think over your reaction and the followed up silence of including her in your Plan B might bring on some self reflection of her own wayward thinking.

Have you told the girls you will all be there for Christmas? Have they asked?

Hi Tully. Thank you for your comments on my thread. I really appreciate the support on here and I know you are getting awesome help too.

It is horrible to think that the uncontrollable chain of events gets us to such a horrible place where everything we loved about our lives is now unstable and in complete disorder. I always thought I had an amazing husband and committed marriage and felt lucky and special everyday. I guess we just don't always know what is happening for our WH.

I hope that you can stand fast with your boundaries and keep them firm with MIL as well. Mine has said some horrible things to me and about me and she is the matriarch of the family and stands by everything she says, even the really stupid things. 3 sons and used to physically and emotionally abuse my FIL. They have been separated/divorced for about 20 years.

Good luck with the Harley's. I was going to call them but went into plan B instead and it's taking all of my energy at the moment.

Take care Tully. You are never alone!

I agree. Give her a taste of Plan B for daring to threaten to take your kids. And wait for her apology.

tully, you explained your reasons for going to Ireland in a post following this, but I should like to add:

TA, if you read tully's thread from late October, you will see how she agonised over how to do Plan B and tried at first to work out a plan based in France. She spent several days discussing with us how to be completely dark with such young children involved. She was very worried about the effects of the separation on her children.

After much discussion (and after the shocking conversation between H and her on the plane), she came to the conclusion that Ireland was a better place from which to maintain darkness. She would have great family support and the children would be with family who love them. Indeed, they are physically closer to supportive family in Ireland than they were in France. tully was not just concerned with the 'darkness' aspect of Plan B; she was concerned with ensuring a high level of support and love for her children through what was bound to be a traumatic time for them. She knew very well that their confusion and insecurity would be high, but this would be offset by the love and stability that her family would offer them.

Their surroundings are not so unfamiliar; they lived in that house earlier this year and went to the local school. Most of the time they seem happy to be in Ireland again on "holiday", doing the same things they had done earlier this year. Some of their unhappiness comes from their father manipulating them when he talks to them. They will certainly be getting used to where they live now, and tully's painting a room and adapting the house will already have speeded up the adjustment.

The international situation made carrying out Plan B difficult. If tully was to be successful in moving her children to Ireland the moment she felt that she could not stay with H any longer through his affair, she would have been unwise to try and seek agreement and forewarn him. He would not have agreed to a move abroad for the children and would probably have gone to law to stop this. I don't think tully chose a "dramatic" exit for any other reason than that.

tully, earlier you wrote about your fears of going back to France, only to face a marital breakdown in a few years, when you could not move the girls abroad as they would be older. You would then be faced with either a relatively lonely existence in France or a move abroad without your children. I understand that fear. I think it is a sensible one and you are right to wait for a much stronger message from your H of remorse and commitment.

It is perfectly fair if it turns out that the children spend their younger childhood in France and the rest in Ireland (although I really hope that you and H reconcile, strongly and permanently). The suddenness of the move is undoubtedly traumatic for them, but so is any parental separation. They and you should not have had to make such a move, but at least the girls are young enough to adjust to the country move easily.

They will not easily adjust to (temporarily) losing their father. I hope he sees his responsiblities clearly and acts soon.

About wanting reassurance; you already know what I think of you!