Good about the auto-reply. Per SH, your mediator should also thank him for his communication each time there is one.

"Thank you for your recent communication. The children will be available for their visit at 2pm on...."

"Thank you for your recent communication. Your DD's dental checkups were all good..."

"Thank you for your recent communication. Tully will communicate directly with you once you can demonstrate that you have ended all contact with OW for good...."


It's much harder to be rude to someone who is thanking you all over the place. Some do manage it, but they only look the more foolish. Your WH is actually doing decently about using your mediator, which is going to end up making this much easier for you.

Well, WH has been and gone. He brought back the girls at 3pm this afternoon. My brother tried to give him a bag of Christmas presents I had prepared for all of his family but he refused to take them saying that he'd prefer if the girls brought them themselves. I'm not sure what that means as absolutely nothing, not even the greatest reversal of situation possible would make me go to spend Christmas with his family.

I have decided that if he tries to take the girls away by force or if he cuts off money to us then I will contact him directly and ask him for a D. I will leave Plan B and go for D. There's only so much a woman can take.

Don't waste your time contacting him directly even then. If you end up deciding to file, just file and have him served. Stay far far far away from any drama.

Your situation is still very hopeful. Even if you filed, I would still have lots of hope for your M.

Tully,

Hang in there! I agree with Neak. Even if you do decide you have to file for D it doesn't mean that things can't turn around. Some wayward's finally get that wake-up call (fog clearing) when they get served for D. Let's hope it doesn't get to that point in your case.

How are you holding up Tully? How is your LB? Also, how is your health? I know your were having some health issues when you first arrived in Ireland and I've been remiss is not asking how you are doing?

Mindshare

It's so good to hear that you both still have hope. All around me, everyone is losing hope and wondering what's the point of not talking to him when there is no sign of him coming around.

I'm doing all right, mindshare. I think the worst thing for my health was the lack of sleep so I've been taking quite mild sleeping tablets for the past while just to make sure I get a decent night's sleep and I think it's helping. As for my LB, I'm not sure any more what I think about that. I think his attitude and how he comes back to me if ever will have a huge impact. I'm really not a grudge-bearer and I tend to forgive easily but can I live with this, I just don't know.

Hi tully,

I take this as meaning that he badly wants you all to go there for Christmas (and not leave home again afterwards).

I know that instinct cannot be the basis for anything really, especially a cyber friend's instincts about people she has never met, but I'll tell you why I feel your H wants you back.

It's simply because he keeps trying to talk to you about the marriage. That means talking about your going back. If he wanted to tell you that he wants out, he would simply serve you with papers. If he wanted to abandon you and build his relationship with OW, you would not keep hearing that he wants to speak to you.

I'm really only going on what happened to me. My H DID keep his physical affair going for many months after D Day 2005 and the serious risk that I would leave him. To me at the time he was clearly demonstrating that he was done with the marriage and was trying to provoke me into throwing him out so that he would not be seen as having walked out on his children.

I only gradually saw that this was not true and that he did not want the marriage to end. If he had wanted to go at any stage after D Day, he would have gone. Instead, what he kept doing was breaking off with OW in a blind panic about losing me, then having "one off" (ha ha) sessions with her when things appeared to calm down at home and he thought I could not find out what he was doing in Brussels.

Now, I'm not recommending that you do anything in the stupid, unplanned, reactive way that I did, but I'm just trying to make you see that one thing; he would not be trying to talk to you if he simply wanted out. He would not telling his mother and other people that you are making the situation worse (you are not, of course) by moving and staying away. He would simply say that it's probably for the best, the marriage is over for him anyway and he only wants to make sure he doesn't lose touch with his children.

I do know that he must change his angry and entitled attitude, and approach reconciliation with much humility and remorse, if he is to win you back. Just now, his anger and pride are consuming him. It is possible that he will maintain his current attitude right up to a point where you say "enough". I do hope he does not.


I know this seems to be the opposite of what I said above, but it would be good for you to look into your rights. I do think that he might apply to a court soon to force you to let the girls visit him in France (not to take them away for good). You should not allow yourself to be taken by surprise in this matter.

Hugs to you on a grey cold day on which things seem very bad. I think they will get better.

Hi Tully! Thank you for your kind words on my situation. While not exactly what I wanted to hear it was definately what I needed to hear!!! It's so hard to break old habits.

I see you struggling with your LB and that's entirely understandable given that your WH has been acting like a complete jerk. BUT, your H is the man that fills your LB, rarely/never the WH. Keep your H in your mind to hold on to your M and give up as many thoughts as possible about the WH.

If and when he comes back, he will not be the WH anymore. Sugar is right. You will have an improved H who has walked over hot coals to prove he loves you and to win you back and THAT is the man that you can try to fall in love with, not WH.



Just breathe and take it a day at a time.

Thank you Sugar and 2M2L.
I agree that he wants us to go back but firstly I'm not sure if it's me that he wants back or if it's the girls and secondly I wonder if he only wants us back so that he can drive me away again and then come out of all this looking like the good guy who tried to repair the damage but wasn't allowed to do so by me.

I'm starting even to question the man I was married to before not just the new WH. It's as if I've been looking at him through the soft focus of love all this time and now under the glare of full light he's suddenly not looking so attractive at all. Maybe this is a temporary feeling coming from anger at his lack of respect and consideration for me. I have to consider the future for the girls too though.

tully,

I have just written to you.

This is an opportunity for you to look at the M from the outside and begin to change those things about it you don't like and will not return to. Firstly, what things will you change about yourself, and I say that rhetorically, because it is different for every person, and every person has areas they can make better. Then secondly, what will you no longer accept.

The next job you have is to protect that love you still have for him. I read it dwindling. If that is the case, you have to plug that leak...and what is that leak? Contact with the in-laws? Listening to family and friends and their advice? Thinking about him? Too much information from the mediator? Cut ALL contact so you can preserve that love. This is for you and for the M.

After that, how have you explained it to the girls? How are they faring? Do they have a stake in this? Do they have a say? Have you explained what is happening and what you are doing? I know girls, they want to know. Since they are in contact with WH, they can be a great wake up call for him...a simple question like, "Do you love the OW more than Mom?" Of course no prodding them or rehearsing, but allow them to make their own choices by giving them needed info. You haven't talked much about the girls, so not sure what you are doing there, just thought I'd throw out my 2 pennies worth.

Have you made plans for getting your own place? Or renting a short term apartment?

And get a life...get out there and enjoy yourself, but be careful around the opposite sex, you are particularly vulnerable right now and should be especially vigilant about NOT putting yourself in situations where an A can occur (it happens too often...)

I agree completely about plugging the leak(s). I think you've done a great job of that so far, not even hesitating about making the tough-but-necessary choices like cutting contact with MIL. Just continue to be vigilant, even over your thoughts.

Of course you're doubting him pre-A...your whole foundation has been shaken and you're questioning it all. From all your descriptions, I think your pre-A M was very typical of so many of us: not bad, some needs going unmet, but you both loved each other. You're going to be building a whole new marriage anyway, and I think you've got enough to go on when he's ready.

Plugging the leaks is an interesting topic. I totally agree that the goal should be to plug the leaks. I've been suggesting to Tully since I joined her thread a long while back that she needed to keep track of her LB. Some of the leaks are fairly straight forward and easy to plug such as no contact with MIL. However, some are much more difficult. As Neak just mentioned...a BS's thoughts. It seems to me that even if you are as dark as can be when it comes to contact with WH or others that can continue to drain the LB (and Tully is about as close as you can get) isn't there still a slow draining of the LB just because of the overall situation? Is it possible to completely stop the draining of the LB? I know that you can do things for yourself and focus on your kids, etc. and that can help and be a distraction but it is impossible to completely shut off your thoughts. I've been sensing for a while now that Tully's gotten awfully close to the red on her LB. I've mentioned this to her a few times. I don't have the answer so I guess this is more of a question on my part to see if anybody else (with more experience) has some thoughts or strategies. How do you prevent a slow drain of the LB that seems to be inevitable when you are in a dark Plan B and you have a wayward that is still in the fog? It seems to me that your daily thoughts and the fact that the wayward remains wayward in and of itself causes a drain on the LB. My observation is that this is what is currently happening to Tully. Who has some ideas on how to plug that leak?

Mindshare

IMO, that type of leak is at least partially inevitable, but because the damage is caused by a lack of action on the part of the WS, and not the previous in-your-face slash and burn of the heart, I think it is also the easiest to begin to repair once the WS comes on board with R.

That is also not to imply that it shouldn't be guarded against and fought as much as possible.

The effort to try and do away with the slow leak entirely may not succeed 100%, but it will certainly minimize the damage.

Tully, a few questions.

First, have you read Surviving an Affair and/or the articles on this site?

Second, if your H did everything you wanted - promised NC, handed over all means of monitoring him, changed jobs, emigrated - would you return to the marriage? What would he have to do to convince you to go back?

Third, what do you see as the possible outcomes for the girls in terms of yourself and their father? Which do you think is best for them/you?

And good luck with Steve tomorrow.

TA

Thanks, all. I think there is a leak in my LB but much less than when I was in France. Over the past 6 weeks since I got here I have had no direct contact with WH but I have had to listen to his foggy thinking through other people. I think I've blocked most of that out now but I can't help remembering stuff from the past when WH let me down. I think I mentioned before that he has a real problem with negative emotions and I saw that he was less than supportive and loving in difficult times in my life, mainly because he would rather ignore a problem rather than share it with me.

Another thing that is drawing on my LB is seeing the effects of this on my children. This evening DD11 was upset in bed and we talked about things. Most of the time the girls seem OK but every so often in the evenings one or more of them will get upset. DD11 asked me 'why can't he see that we are more important than her?' and I said that I didn't know. Then she told me something as if she was a bit nervous to say it. She said that WH had bought a birthday cake to celebrate the twins birthday this weekend. He said it was delicious and when DD11 said, 'yes, but not as good as Mum's', he said, 'I'm not so sure'. She said 'why did he say that, he always prefers your cakes.' This kind of thing makes me feel so sad and angry at him.

TA, I haven't read Surviving an Affair but I have recently checked it out on Amazon and I will buy it. I have read all of the articles on this website several times and most of it speaks volumes to me. One of the things that struck me was the bit about getting the balance right between the Giver and Taker. It makes a lot of sense to me but before I always thought that giving was good but taking was bad.


As for what I want, the only thing I am asking for specifically is zero contact with OW but what I would really like is that he understands fully the pain he caused me and how wrong he was to do what he did and that he is repentant and full of remorse but I know I can't ask for this.

I will be wherever my children are. If we go to D, then I will try to live in Ireland close to my family. Raising 4 children was tough enough when we were together, I don't want to do it alone. I want the family support for them and me that I have here. He could find a job here more easily than I could in France I think. I don't know how these matters work in a court but if i am not allowed to take them out of France then I will find a way to live there but it wouldn't be my first choice.

I am so sorry that your girls have negative feelings about your WH and I think that could be a major leak for you. You feel your children's pain so deeply and the hurt would be enough to drain your LB entirely.

Do they have people to talk to? Can they get professional counselling through school/church/community groups or friends? You might need to offer more superficial support to them instead of the detailed listening so that it doesn't hurt you more.

I think Sugar has been pushing you to follow up your legal options for the future as far as places of residence etc and now might be a good time to get some counsel on it.

Look after yourself and stay strong!

Tully, the reason I asked about SAA is because I'm not clear whether your expectations are realistic, and I wondered what you're basing them on.

I do most definitely understand your need to have him understand how much pain he caused you. However, separate out the moral boundary (it's wrong to betray a solemn promise) from the repentance/ remorse stuff. Chances are you'll NEVER get those in the way you want, and the chances of getting them so soon after D-Day (and it IS soon after D-Day in the timescale of infidelity) are pretty much nil. Brains take a long time - simply on a basic biological level - to defog. On what are you basing your expectation?

Let's say he offers you guaranteed provable NC. I get the impression that wouldn't be enough?

Your answer about the best outcome for the girls didn't include a healthy, recovered marriage, I notice. You're looking only at outcomes that involve divorce / separation, as far as I can see? Why? It's only, what, three and a half months since D-Day? With no MC and nearly half of that time spent in different countries with no contact or communication? Does that seem a realistic way to recover from a huge crisis like this? Do you think the girls would be better off with their father distanced from their lives?

That Giver and Taker thing is interesting, isn't it? Most of us BS's have done lots of heroic Giving and ended up feeling Better Than and a bit martyred. I know I did. But note that too much Giving is just as toxic to a marriage as too much Taking. You and I have both contributed to building marriages that were hopelessly out of balance. Whether we like it or not, there are things about OURSELVES that need to change. (And believe me, I take very good care of my Taker these days.)

Good luck.

TA

But TA, I feel this is a moot question seeing as he isn't even giving me this. If I got this then I would agree to meet and talk with a view to reconstructing our M and I would be prepared to give it my best shot. But I also know that if he makes no effort whatsoever with occasional provocation and mockery (which is the way he was before) then there is no chance it will work. It's not even a choice for me, I would be mentally and physically incapable of continuing with him. I know that some women might be able to take this in the hope that in some distant future things would improve but I couldn't. As it is the 10 weeks I spent with him was having such a negative impact on my health that I honestly think that 3 or 4 months of that would literally kill me and that would not be a good think for the girls.

Yes, I am starting to see that we are in an impasse. He seems to think that I have caused him as much harm by leaving as he has caused me and is not prepared to back down in any way. This doesn't surprise me about him, this is quite typical even before his wayward ways but IMO the worst possible situation for the girls and for me is to go back to a bad marriage which is doomed to failure in the short or medium term. I would rather walk away from this right now. However, I have been hoping from what Neak, black raven and others have been saying is that by asking for NC I am asking for bottom card of the house of cards; I am only asking for one card but it's a critical one. Of course I may be wrong but it's worth a shot, I think.

In any case, I have an appointment with Steve Harley in about one hour so I will raise this issue with him directly. Thank you for bringing it us now so that it's fresh in my mind.

I'll report back later. If anyone thinks I should discuss any other specific issues please let me know.

TA, I just wanted to add that I think it's also important to be a good role model for one's children. I have 4 daughters and I've asked myself what would I want for them. Would I want them to follow my example on this if I take whatever kind of marriage my husband deigns to offer me? No, absolutely no. We will be OK together if it goes to D. He will continue to be a big part of their lives but I suspect that as they become teenagers their respect for him will diminish but that's less important than their respect for themselves.