Mrs. W., that's a very interesting article. But I do guarantee Mr. W.'s self respect was also affected. The article states this:
Upon D-day, a BS discovers that they are, in fact, not who they think they are. Self-respect is out the window because a very critical part of our own self-definition - our marriage and our union as one with the WS - does not even exist. Certainly not as we had spent our entire marriage believing it did.

Anyway, it's just semantics when you get down to it.

I just don't agree regarding Mr. W's self-respect and he and I have discussed this of course - he agrees with *ME* ...Who he knew himself to be did NOT change...*HE* was still the same person that he had always been, it was *ME* that was different...His belief in God, did not change...his relationship with Him did deepen though...

Let me give you an example of the kind of guy that Mr. W is...Here is the thought process that he used during the affair: He said to himself, "Well, this is MY life experience, good or bad, it is MINE...I am going to approach it like this: I will picture myself going over a waterfall...Now, I can either squeeze my eyes shut in fear, OR I can choose to look around and experience all of this and learn from it." He chose to look and learn and of course ACT when he needed to...realizing that in the end he would be okay no matter what...He KNEW that...Operated from that position...

He is the type guy that does not believe that he is owed anything...Not an entitled bone in the man's body...and he is GRATEFUL for EVERYTHING...Even the tiniest of things...And he will also tell you that some of his attitude may be the result of growing up rather privileged (though not spoiled)...NOTHING bad before the affair had ever happened to him...He will tell you that the affair is the ONLY bad thing that has ever happened in his life...And in that same breath, he will tell you that he would have felt like a total heel to have said "WHY ME?" because of all of the blessings that had been bestowed upon him...His attitude is not something of this world, imo...

I told you, he is an anomaly and I am so very blessed to be married to him...

Mrs. W

I'm glad you H took you back Mrs. W but if he is so different from other men then maybe it isn't fair to use your recovery as a typical example of what is possible but rather an extreme exception?

As you said, he's an anomaly.

Well iam, I do think Mr. W is extremely exceptional...No doubt about it...And yes, much of our recovery has gone so well because he simply is that wonderful...BUT my learning to appreciate him (and him me) has come from all of our learning here on MB...Using this forum...Dr. Harley's books...As well as the MB Weekend Seminar...And most certainly church...I do feel we are example of an MB success story...I would hope that God might see fit to use us to help someone through us sharing our experiences...Dunno...We have certainly felt compelled to try...

Mrs. W

Btw, I certainly am not implying that Mr. W is perfect (though he is perfect for me), therefore, I do believe others could choose to follow his example...I know I am certainly trying...

Mrs. W

But I am (funny, "I am") a typical guy. I'm not special. I just refuse to allow my wife's actions 3 years ago to define my life, my ability to love and my ability to experience relationship(s). Mrs. W is the extraordinary one. SHE is, perhaps, the atypical former ww.

What I really find atypical, are betrayeds that continue forever indwelt with their experiences with infidelity unable to regain themselves. It makes me question how much "themselves" they had to begin with. Sure my confidence took a short term hit. But I had some to spare. I was a little too prideful anyway. Mrs. W is not my possession, she is who I've chosen to spend my life with. She's who He's chosen for me to spend my life with. OUR relationship, through Him, has overcome attack from a real and cunning enemy, an enemy that attacks the minds of both waywards and betrayeds alike (because you are one flesh). TOGETHER...we defeated satan...this time. He's sure to try again....but he'll find a stronger unified opponent next time.

Don't get me wrong...I have sympathy for the stuck betrayeds but, I can't for the life of me begin to understand how a betrayed spouse can fritter away YEARS upon YEARS of their precious life bemoaning this stuff.

I don't like looking back. Dday sucked. After Dday sucked. Early recovery sucked. I was fortunate the episode only lasted a few months. However, I was going to be OK no matter the outcome.

Imagine surviving infidelity and having a marriage of extraordinary care. What will that look like and how happy would YOU be? BE that spouse NOW and your future may just become your present without the wasted years in between.

Besides...bemoaners aren't very attractive to anybody so even if you have to fake it for awhile, your (and maybe his/her) feelings will follow your actions. Happiness and contentment are contagious. Remember, any one of us could die tomorrow.

Mr. Wondering

Great post MrW - I totally agree.

Our recovery was pretty much like this as well.

This thread took on a much bigger life of its own than expected.

I want everyone to think of the Bud Light commercial that was popular a few years ago:

Guys, you're my guys. And I just want to say.....


I LOVE YOU, MAN!

Mrs W. makes some great points.

If I may, I would like to add that although Mr. & Mrs. W. "ARE" special, from my limited time on these boards, their recovery from an A is what a normal recovery looks like.
I believe that they both just continue to raise the bar as opposed to lowering it again.

When I came here, I was told by ALL to accept responsibility for my choices. I took everyones advice and I'm thankful I did.
IMVHO, The same applies to BS'es.
(and I am saying this with great respect to all BS'es)

Not much time, but let me try to clear a couple of things up.

Part of doing Plan A is doing it because you think it is the right thing to do in order to save the marriage because you think THAT is the right thing to do. If I only believed in doing things the right way because I got my desired results each and every time I attempted them I would quickly have a very small list of what I consider to be right. What I think is the right thing to do is NOT determined by whether or not doing it is paying off for me personally.

Part of this for me comes from the fact that I do have a faith in God, not as some impersonal force or some grandfather who indulges his grandkids in whatever way they desire, but I see Him as someone who wants what is best for me even when what I want isn't what is best and certainly isn't what He wants for me.

So if I believe that I should fight to save my marriage, I am doing it because I believe that I should fight, not because I believe that I will succeed, though that is my hope, again, because I believe that is what would be right. I also believe that it would be right for my wife, since it is not just my opinion that it is for me, but also for her since an affair is wrong and therefore cannot be right.

The reason I think that being beaten down is not part of Plan A is that if I am doing Plan A type stuff to change my wife, I am not really doing Plan A. The goal should be to change me, not her. As I examined myself to see what I could do to make ME a better person, I knew that what I was doing was right and therefore the results were MY reward rather than what she did or did not do to respond to my changes.

As I did Plan A I got stronger, though still not able to simply let go of her because I still felt as though what we had before the affair, though flawed, was worth trying to save. My intent was to save my marriage, but my changes were so that I was better for it, not based on whether she remained my wife, but based on knowing that I was not only going to be a better man than I was, but was already a better man than OM.

The comment that you can only fix yourself is not to imply that you are at fault for the affair or that if the marriage fails you will be the one who needs to take the blame. It means just what it says, you have no control over how someone responds to the things you do and yet you do the things that will enrich YOU and make YOU better. Your HOPE is that enough reality is still breaking through the fantasy and that your WW will also see that you are a better choice than OM, but the value is in doing the right thing for YOU and not for her.

Plan A will make you feel like a doormat because you are giving while getting nothing in return. If you can understand that what you are doing is right and not confuse results with expectations and know that you will only be doing this until a certain time has past and then are willing to let go it becomes a lot easier. It's still really hard though.

It isn't lack of results that beats down the BH but the unmet expectations that we begin with. We think that if we do X, Y and Z, then she will do _____ and everything will go smoothly from there. But that almost never happens and if what we expect to happen does not we can feel as if our effort is worth nothing.

As long as we can do what we need to do because WE need to do it and NOT so that WW will do anything specific we can keep our expectations low and ANY progress seen becomes a windfall.

So you figure out her ENs (usually she isn't going to help with this, but unless you have been a totally insensitive lout the whole time you were married you should have SOME kind of idea what her ENs might be and if not you go for the ones you know are typical of women in general, Conversation, Affection and openness and Honesty.) and while doing this you expect NOTHING at all in return from her. You still state that she must end the affair, that you will not share her with OM and that you will not wait for her to decide forever.

You identify Love Busters and get rid of them from your daily existence. Now LBs are a lot easier because there are really only 6 categories and ALL of them do damage in some way shape or form. So you do away with all 6. This is maybe the hardest thing to do, even harder than meeting her ENs because you WANT to throttle her, scream at her, call her every derogatory name you can think up and get even with her for doing this to you. And you expect her to not notice any changes at all.

You know you are going along the right path when she tells you that you are doing too little too late and nothing you can do can make her stay married. This means she is seeing your changes and you are making the right ones. This is a sign of HOPE not lost cause.

When you first find out it feels like your whole world is out of control. Nothing is as it should be and everything you ever thought to be true is in doubt. Plan A makes you focus on what you DO have control over and that is YOU. By working on YOU and not her, your self worth can be based not on what she does but on merely knowing that you have done the right thing.

Now I did not end up in Plan B but was nearing the end of being able to do Plan A the way I believed it to be done when I let go with my biggest Love Buster in years. I was barely able to keep from slamming my fist into the wall and what I wanted to do was to slam it into her face. The fence sitting was frustrating that day and when she walked away and then said she was going home, I told her to pack when she got there unless she was willing to change something. Her response was that she didn’t want to change anything and I was certain that the end was near. The next day is when she sent me an email telling me she was committed to staying and working it out and wasn’t going to run away.

Then the really hard part started...

Mark

You can tell me otherwise if you wish, but to me, this was an ultimatum, which is exactly what started this whole line of posts.

I think , instinctively, I did a good enough Plan A, then. I used to think the fact that I did not go ballistic and that I let her have 3 months to get her self staight was going doormat. But, I cut oof all funding that was being diverted to the affair, I exposed liie crazy,and I never cried , begged or pled. Still did not work and she moved out to be with the OM. So, I guess I can feel good about giving it my best shot.
e need to be able to distinguish between different types of WS's. Soem, like my XW, are not capable of facing this and they run.

Yes, it was an ultimatum but it was not what I did the first day after I found out. In fact, after I examined what I said I would have probably held my tongue instead of blurting out the fist thing I thought of at that moment. I can tell you that if I had issued that ultimatum on D-day instead of well over a month later, I would be frequenting the Divorcing/Divorced forums instead of GQII.

Of that I have NO doubt because my wife has told me as much. She said that if I had acted in such a way the day I confronted her she would have simply moved to Kentucky and we'd be done. She has told me that it was seeing me work so hard at trying to save "us" that gave her pause and made her think that maybe she WAS acting selfishly. It made her examine herself.

To be honest I issued other ultimatums along the way as well. I told her the day I confronted her that I hadn't decided if I was going to try to figure out a way to keep us together or send her packing. I told her three days later that I wasn't going to share her with OM or anybody else. I expressed to her more than once that if she ever used my phone or computer to contact him she might be wearing pieces of them. I also told her that if I found any more calls on her work phone I would call her boss and tell him she was abusing the phone for personal business. (Her work account was MY account in that I was the one who sold the company the phones and was how I found the proof of the affair in her call records)

It isn't issuing ultimatums I am against. It is doing it in a way that says "or else" and having only divorce as the "or else."

If you issue the ultimatum that says "end the affair or get out of my house" and the affair ends, it worked. If it doesn't work what do you do then? If your only plan is to throw her out and she refuses to leave, what do you do THEN? And if you try to throw her out and she calls the cops and says you are abusing her, what do you do THEN?

Assumption #1, you want to save your marriage.
Assumption #2 you are willing to work to do it.

If you demand an end to the affair & it doesn't end, what is your next step? I demanded an end to it and it took over another month for it to end.

If you beat your chest and the rival doesn't bolt, are you willing to fight?

How much value do you place on your marriage, not your wife but your marriage TO your wife?

I EXPECT that a BH would tell his wife she had to stop the affair, unless of course he saw it simply as an opportunity to upgrade himself, in which case he was never really a buyer but merely a renter. If his wife is what defines him as who he is, HE has issues that need to be addressed. Whether married to a cheater or not, he still has to face the fact that HE is his own person and SHE is her own person.

So you demand the affair ends and it doesn't? Now what?

Now what is the answer a BH usually struggles with. Those who draw their sense of identity from being married are the ones who flounder the longest. Back to the emotional maturity question I think.

My ultimatum that day blew off enough fog to get her to reluctantly agree to end the affair. But what I did in the previous weeks was what made her make the decision she made. If I had thrown her stuff in the yard on D-day, she'd have been gone that night.

The question I've always wondered about is what would I have done if she had NOT agreed to end the affair after that incident? I figure I had some Plan A left, but my love for her was going fast and because she was not meeting MY ENs at all, nothing was restocking the cupboard.

I think that the longer you can Plan A the better as long as you do not let yourself begin to hate your WW. Those who can't do it a single day usually can't because they EXPECT it to be instant pudding. Or they just can't bring themselves to do anything other than argue about it and have one AO after another.

When I began reading here one of the first things I read was that Dr Harley said that men should be able to do Plan A for about six months. That was my expectation going in, that I would be doing it with no visible results for six months. If the affair was still going on then, I was determined to go into a Plan B. I did not go into Plan B because I did not have to because the affair ended before six months had passed.

If I had spent the entire six months with the same results I don't know if I'd have had enough left to try recovery when the affair was over, but I KNEW I was NOT going to let it go on for over six months right up front.

I also don't know if I would have been able to last that long if she had run off to spend the weekend with OM at some point. I might have decided to quit and call it a day. But part of what I was doing was spending as much time with her as I could manage. I left work early some days, fixed special dinners for her, took on more of the housework than normal and shared my day with her and listened while she shared details of hers. I started horseback riding with her and took her fishing with me. I scheduled things that required her presence as well as mine.

I was also fortunate that HER family supported my efforts as did her friends that I had exposed to. So did our pastor who had met Dr Harley years before and pointed me to MB in the first place, though not directly enough for my tastes…But it was HE that made me realize that I wasn’t going to get instant anything from this.

The ultimatum might have been a catalyst, but even in the presence of a catalyst a reaction can't happen without the raw materials to work with.

Plan A provides those raw materials...

Mark


I wish I had the time to spend here while I'm at work...

Well thank goodness for that!!

Man you could talk the horns off a billygoat.

How about we put you into a 12 step program to help you reduce your posts to 3 paragraphs or less

</removes tongue from cheek>

OK

Was i the only one that seen that you had replied and was gettign ready for a nice long read?

ITA!!

Mark, that was truly inspirational! I laughed, I cried...then I did this~~~>

You know we luvs ya Mark!

Mrs. W