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#2221295 02/26/09 08:12 PM
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I am horrible at starting new threads but will do my best here. This is a continuation of a discussion started on goldpig22's thread about details. Began to realize that this discussion was bit of a TJ.

I will copy a few of the posts made over there and if anyone wants to hop in, this is the place.


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My post to Jerry:
 Quote:
Jerry,

My comments to Krazy are in *NO* way a justification of ANYTHING. I want to make that as clear as I can.

There is NO REASON EVER to justify adultery. NEVER, EVER, EVER.

I was not even really talking to goldpig. I was refuting Krazy's statement that no woman, ever, has EVER given it up for ATTENTION. That is ridiculous. And it shows a basic misunderstanding of how women think. Many(I am reluctant to say MOST) women think of sex as primarily emotional. The physical componenet is secondary.

OF COURSE it's about boundaries. That is the point. Many women are willing to give up their boundaries, their self-respect, to get ATTENTION.

Women and girls EVERYWHERE do indeed give it up for ATTENTION. That does not make it RIGHT. That does not justify it. But it IS the truth.

And truly, I am thinking more of unmarried women in pre-marital realtionships here. Do you really believe that all those teen-age girls out there having sex are having it because they are craving a physical relationship? Because their hormones are screaming that they want an orgasm? They are NOT. They are craving ATTENTION. They would rather "give it up" than be without the attention. They would rather suffer through sex they don't really want than be ALONE.

And these poor choices and lack of boundaries persist into adulthood and after marriage.

They have not been taught boundaries. They do not want to learn HOW to have boundaries because they are going to have to suffer the consequence of being alone because they do not want or are not yet ready for a sexual relationship.

Quote:Do you understand that what you describe above is exactly how and why a predator moves in on M'd women as opposed to single women? A disallusioned M'd womean is easier to persuade than a single woman with discriminating tastes. A true predaator knows and understands this far better than most M'd women do. That is exactly why they prey on M'd women. Less boundaries because of unfurfilled EN's in their M, that have soured the M relationship.

This is EXACTLY my point. IT IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION. A married woman who has decided that she is ENTITLED to get ATTENTION when her H does not provide it to her will seek it elsewhere. AND, if it turns out that she has to have sex in order to keep the attention coming her way, she MAY very well do that.

IT IS WRONG on every level. I know that. I agree with that. That is the point.

The BH who has a WW who has put herself in this position is NOT at fault because his wife DECIDED to lower her boundaries and have an affair.

But the point is.... many women DO have sex for attention alone. They have sex that is unfulfilling, that hurts, is degrading, and is adulterous. They lie to themselves and convince themselves that their sex partner MUST have feelings for them or they would not WANT sex with them. The strong desire for ATTENTION at all costs is no different than the stong desire for anything ELSE at all costs.

Again, I agree COMPLETELY that the issue is a failure to protect boundaries. My point to Krazy was that a woman can have sex merely for the attention. I think that Krazy grossly underestimates the desire(EN) for attention.

And personally, my marriage pre-A was EXACTLY as you describe. MY ENS were completely unfulfilled while my H's WERE fulfilled(by HIS admission), yet HE is the one who chose to have an affair. And I did not.

I agree. Boundaries are the issue.



ETA: For what it's worth, goldpigs wife may be lying about EVERYTHING. But that does not change the fact that their are MANY women(even if SHE was not one of them) who have sex for the attention the yget from it.


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Jerry's response to me:
 Quote:
Quote:Women and girls EVERYWHERE do indeed give it up for ATTENTION. That does not make it RIGHT. That does not justify it. But it IS the truth.



Ya know , Wknghrd2LoveEasy, that statement is really rather frightening to a BH. I say that because my wife gave it up to her boss, who was 12 years younger, after 32 years of M. She was no teenage girl, or even a woman who could hide behind naivety. She, like I, had been around the block a few times in our lives.

I am not trying to paint you into a corner, but perhaps EN's are overrated when it comes to pa. Ther are times, that I believe, that it was rather about frolicking in the persuit and excitement of the A. That can strike anyone at any age. In fact, age has no boundary for this to occur. Dr Harley admits this when he states, "We are all wired to have an A."

My Q thus becomes, what caused a WW to enter an A, unmet EN's or the thrill of the chase? Suppose we could debate this forever but now I'm hijacking Goldpig's thread.

Could start another thread if you care to?

All Blessings,
Jerry
_________________________


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So what is your conclusion? It could be either, or both, or a combonation of the two?

Dr Shirlee Glass(rip) calls this the slipery slope. Once we engage in the slipery slope, there are no longer any limits or boundaries that will keep us from our fantasy.

We will simply move or remove whatever boundaries there were in place, to accomadate the A.

Pretty frightening thought for me.

All Blessings,
Jerry

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Nothing like bolstering my own thread with lots of posts from myself. Sorry about that.

Jerry,
 Quote:
I am not trying to paint you into a corner, but perhaps EN's are overrated when it comes to pa. Ther are times, that I believe, that it was rather about frolicking in the persuit and excitement of the A. That can strike anyone at any age. In fact, age has no boundary for this to occur. Dr Harley admits this when he states, "We are all wired to have an A."


I do not feel at all painted into a corner.

I do not believe that ALL women have sex with an OP merely because they want the attention. I wanted to point out that there ARE women who will do this.

I, for one, do NOT believe that men OR women have affairs merely because ENs are not met. As I said, in my H's case, even HE admits his needs were being met. He wanted to feel COOL, like a macho man who could have multiple women. He wanted some
"strange". He was not wanting for sex from me in any way. I gave and give him his fill.(Sorry if TMI)

But sometimes, especially(I believe) with women, it IS about attention. A woman whose H never tells her she is attractive or that he loves her or that she is the most precious thing in the world to him MIGHT seek ATTENTION elsewhere. And an EA is born.

This is, of course, a HUGE mistake. It shows a lack of boundaries and a refusal to protect the marriage. It is NEVER an excuse for adultery. N.E.V.E.R.

THEN, when the man who has been providing her with the much coveted attention decides that he wants to take things to the next step(PA), the woman MIGHT go along, even if she doesn't really want the sex, JUST to continue to have the attention. And sometimes the woman really does NOT want the sex, despite what Krazy might think.

It might sound stupid(all affairs ARE)but I know women who have done this. And so does my daughter. She has a friend who is not having an affair, but has regular sex with a guy BECAUSE she feels that it is the ONLY way she can keep his attention focused on HER. This is not to say she doesn't like the sex, but it is the attention she is after.(And it is not working very well.)

I absolutely DO believe that we are ALL hard-wired to have an affair. I believed this long before I heard of MB. I know that when I married my H, I made a conscious decision NOT to have any ENs met by ANY other man. This was before I even knew the term EN. I decided to protect myself, my H and my marriage. And I believe that as long as I do this, I won't have an affair. But if I let my guard down I might.

I know that my personal weak spot would actually be attention. Not a craving for fun and excitement and sex. But one thing DOES lead to another.

Unfortunately for me my H did not make the same decision.

I believe that is what MB is all about. Both spouses protecting their own boundaries AND each other's.

As we BOTH know, it doesn't always work out that way and we end up here, in the nicest club that no one wants to join.

 Quote:
My Q thus becomes, what caused a WW to enter an A, unmet EN's or the thrill of the chase?


I think it depends on the woman.

Either way, it is a case of poor boundaries and a sense of entitlement. For men and women both.

What do you think?

Blessings,


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Yes, the slippery slope.

As a Believer, I know you know that the adversary works overtime to convince us that the slope is not only not REALLY slippery but that even if it IS, we can navigate it anyway.

My sister always refers to this as "eating the apple" AGAIN!!!! We think that somehow we are "special" and that we can "handle" a little loosening of the boundaries. WE won't slide down the slope. No, no, no. We are smarter, more sophisticated, more careful, less stupid.......and then ....boom, down we go.

Then we justify and deceive.

 Quote:
We will simply move or remove whatever boundaries there were in place, to accomadate the A.


Yuk. I think that is what is the most scary to me. Without vigilance, it can happen to any of us.

Blessings,


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OK, I gotcha.

Still it's sad to think that's the only difference between the faithful and the unfaithful.

a thin line of EN's.

Thats really scarry.

Lends me to a depression.

Wish i could say more.

All Blessings,
Jerry

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I think not a thin line of ENs, but thin BOUNDARY lines.

Don't be depressed.

Pray.

One of the things I think I did wrong BEFORE my H had the A was that I did not pray effectively enough for him. Exactly 2 weeks before D-Day I felt led to write a prayer for him. It was an overwhelming urge.

I wrote it and prayed deeply and consistently with it and then came D-Day. With all my heart I believe that my DEEP praying helped to bring the dark things into the light.

Blessings,


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At the time of my A, my ENs weren't being met for the first time in our 28 year marriage. The OM turned up again after 35 years (he wasn't the OM then - just to be clear) just at that time. I don't think it was lack of ENs being met that contributed to the A. At the time I had no experience of anybody who'd had an A. I thought I was unique.

I didn't have SF with the OM for the attention. I had SF with the OM because I was planning to leave my marriage and thought I would be with the OM in the future. I had SF with the OM because he was the only other person on earth apart from my H I could even contemplate having SF with. It was only because of our early history that I could possibly even entertain the thought of SF. When I married I knew I would be faithful forever to my H. Turns out that was not going to be true.

I romanticised the A completely. I thought we were star crossed, fated, blah blah, blah.

I think there's a huge difference between a man having an A and a woman having an A.

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Well I pray all the time.

When my FWW was in the midst of her A. I was praying the rosary every day, faithfully.

In spite of that, I had no idea she was involved in an A at the time.

Sometimes I just feel like a fool.

All Blessings,
Jerry

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We all feel like fools Jerry. The signs were so obvious I don't know HOW I missed them.

But my intellect reminds me that I am NOT a fool and neither are you. My heart doesn't always get it, but my head knows better.

Praying for better days for you Jerry. You are a blessing to everyone on this forum.


WH2LE

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Gosh, I was typing in invisible font again. I'll have to watch that.

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I agree that there are woman that give it up simply for attention and to hang on to the attention giver. How many times has it been said that waywards revert back to "highschoolish" behavior during an A? I love you. I love you too. But I love you better. No, I love you better. Nope, I love you. The ridiculous amount of IMs, texts, emails, pointless phone calls.

Women of all ages, not just teenagers, give up sex to get a man and to hold on to a man. Heck, some women will even go as far as getting preggers to hold onto a guy. Look at all the women signing up for their 15 minutes of fame on shows like The Bachelor. They might be bimbos, but they still crave the attention of the spotlight as well as to say look, I'm so great that this guy picked ME out of all these other women. I'M SPECIAL!

Men want sex and there are lots of women willing to give it up to get the attention and try to "secure" their spot by not turning him down. Some wayward women could just want sex, like the thrill of the A, want the attention/"romance", or want a replacement H. It's not all about sex even if the A goes physical.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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lol Jen!!!!

Actually I was excited to see you posted here. I ususally can not post or even check here after about 10:00 my time becasue I have to pick up my H from work. That is a 2 hour project. Last night I just checked in and did not have time to respond to you.

I OFTEN feel that I post in invisible font. In fact, sometimes I am afraid to post on an interesting thread because when I check back on it, it has fallen to 2nd or third page. I don't want to "jinx" a good thread. \:D

 Quote:
I think there's a huge difference between a man having an A and a woman having an A.


AMEN! There are exceptions of course, but women seem to be looking for the emotional connection more than a man. Women want to feel "LOVED".

My H wasn't looking for sex, but he wasn't looking for a woman to "LOVE" him either. He wanted to feel like "big man", someone that other guys would feel jealous of. He wanted to feel COOL and like he was getting away with something. Gag.


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I watched a few episodes of The Bachelor this year and it made me sick to my stomach.

All the things those women will do for ATTENTION. All those women "fighting" it out over a man. Nothing more than a fancied up Jerry Springer show. And the Bachelor just LOVING it all.

Ewwwww.


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 Originally Posted By: KiwiJ
I didn't have SF with the OM for the attention. I had SF with the OM because I was planning to leave my marriage and thought I would be with the OM in the future. I had SF with the OM because he was the only other person on earth apart from my H I could even contemplate having SF with. It was only because of our early history that I could possibly even entertain the thought of SF. When I married I knew I would be faithful forever to my H. Turns out that was not going to be true.


Did you contemplate having a life long relationship with OM without you having SF with him? Meaning did you think he would stay with you if you did not have SF with him.


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I'll try to answer that.

The history of me and the OM was that we were HS b/f and g/f. We went out together for 5 years and in that time (from when I was 13 to 17) we didn't have SF. I was what they used to call a "good" girl. When we met up again 30 years later there was no intention to have an A. There may have been some on his part - I don't know. That's just to give a bit of background.

By the time I had SF with the OM, which was three months into the A, I was sure I wanted to leave my H. I had SF because I thought that's the way the A was going - to both of us leaving our marriages. If I had or hadn't had SF wouldn't have made any difference to the OM. The SF part of the A stopped after 5 months anyway (stopped by the OM) and it continued as an EA for another 7 months. It sounds flippant but with the history it wasn't hard to stop the SF. Granted we were now adults but the dynamics remained the same.

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 Quote:
And these poor choices and lack of boundaries persist into adulthood and after marriage.

They have not been taught boundaries. They do not want to learn HOW to have boundaries because they are going to have to suffer the consequence of being alone because they do not want or are not yet ready for a sexual relationship
Oh my goodness, that was ME! The EA turned PA to continue to get the attention from xOM. I am not like that now but that behavior started when I was a teenager.


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