***real biblical advise requested*** (please try to look beyond what this may "seem" to be to give biblical and godly counsel...thanks.)

This is the one real sore spot in our marriage; it grieves me that my dh demands SF from me and says that it is biblical for him to demand and for me to meet his SF need whether I feel like it or not because I am commanded by the Word of God.

He says that he is entitled to SF that NOT meeting my EN is no justification for me being unsubmissive and he says that HE HAS THE RIGHT TO DEMAND SF because this is HOW CHRIST JESUS himself "loved the church" [/u](see the book of Revelation---commanding obedience and disciplining the church) and the he is permitted and "blessed by God as the spiritual head of our home to chastise for my disobedience."

He says that THERE IS NO ONE who is able to counsel him as he will not hear anything but what THE BIBLE ITSELF says on this...

There is much more to this story but I just want to focus on the questionIs "demanding SF" scripturally permitted and kind to dw???

Well, if you keep it up, chances are you will grow to resent it and you may start avoiding sex whenever you can.

Hubby is distorting scripture.

Why is it every time a man quotes this for whatever reason he conveniently forgets the LOVE THY WIFE part too?

He believes scripture shows him that LOVING is also correcting; but my concern and view is that he is selfishly demanding and using God's word...WHAT part of scripture would point to him that he is being selfish in demanding this? I told him that "he does not need to demand SF of me" and he replied "I do when you are not submissive to meet my SF".

The scripture I'm familiar with is Esphesians 5:22-33

Ephesians 5:22-33 (New International Version)

Wives and Husbands
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[b] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband

But I wonder if you have a pastor or someone who could talk to your husband.

Do you mind me asking you what church you attend?

I had connected with good Pastor/counselor who was willing to counsel us at a church that I was attending last year; my dh would not meet with him and later; for other reasons, did not want me to continue to attend the church.

I have a church that both dh and I met in over 13 years ago. I have always been active in ministry and he is available now to attend with me. The pastor is new as of last Sept; he likes him but we don't know them well enough. I have spoken with his wife and a few godly sisters and have prayer support but no male counsel who will approach him or whom he thinks is qualified to teach him what the scriptures say. He is NOT willing to meet anyone stating that "if I would only submit" that he would not have to demand.

This is true. And he feels VERY biblically justified especially since he says that the scriptures that I have shared do not apply to marriages but the ones in Revelation do?

Is he one of those people who feels only the new testament applies?

I say that because some people say the New testament is "more up to date" than the old, and hence abide by it rather than the old testament.

Here's a question:

Ask your DH what you submitting to him means. His answer will tell you all you need to know.

I'm sorry, but what a crock! You deserve better.

Submitting to him is:
1-when I have an idea and he discourages it; I drop it. He tries to talk me out of it and say that I am not being submissive if I "keep it up".
2-when I disagree with him on an idea of his; I do not discourage him with "facts" or my opinion or knowledge or "feelings" on the subject. I listen and agree.
3-when he wants SF, I am to initiate it. If I do not, I am not being submissive.
4-Yielding my will, thoughts and plans to him (I keep 95% to myself and H&O have suffered due to LBs of demands and DJ) I have friends who he is jealous of thinking of EA (with dear friend for years but we were always and have always been very close partners in ministry)
5-He has told me that he is not only authority but that I am inferior to him; but he has softened this up to say "You will NOT control me; I will NOT change!"

Submitting to me is:
1-Deferring to him for large and "family or marriage" issues
2-being able to speak freely without repercussion or attack.
3-Being free to trust and feel safe that the decisions that are made are for our good (which they usually are) and that
4-I am a viable, supportive, respected and active part of this partnership (marriage and family) who
5-supports and feel supported by him in all ways; just not SF, DS and Financial support.
6-following a trusted leader and friend who is not out just to meet his SF need!

I have been through verbal abuse (is what I have seen but D and DJ mainly with AO at times;)where LBs abounded until just about a month ago when we started reading Dr. Harley's books and then he seems to have to "find something" that I am "not doing perfectly"...well, I guess SF is IT. He seemed to understand EN and says that "he has been nice to be all day" but the entitlement attitude turned me off so much that I was sick to my stomach.

There is no counselor; male or female that I can confide in that he will listen to. One pastor called him "unteachble" just by what I had told him and he and his wife have a healing ministry for marriages. This has been going on so long that I am afraid that I will not love him enough (caring love) to try to provide SF for him at all. I feel emotional impotent in ways. I am sure that NO man on this board wants his bride to feel this way about him. Our hearts are fragile, we are the "weaker vessel" and need your understanding. I am back to feeling manipulated rather than loved. He feels that I withhold SF from him and that I do not love him...we talked about losing romantic love and JUST getting a little back before this "hit the fan". I am concerned about losing what caring love that I can still feel.

He doesn't love you. He owns you. Why would you want to stay with someone who doesn't cherish you and want to make YOU happy?

Your H is a control freak, plain and simple. I bet he's bounced around in a lot of churches because he disagrees with some minor point of doctrine. Anyone or anything that questions his supreme dictatorship over you and his family must be from Satan. He demands to be king of the house and you are his servant. Am I close?

Your H should be the head of the household. That's scriptural. But he should act in a way that you WANT to submit to his leadership. Leadership is NOT lording authority over "inferior" subjects. It is setting an example by actions. He is commanded to love you as Christ loved the church (BTW, you are not commanded to love him, only to respect him). Christ showed love and compassion toward sinners with no expectation of anything in return. Christ put others before himself. Christ sacrificed his own life. You will never be able to freely submit to your H until he demonstrates this sort of unselfish love. You will only resent him more and more. It's this incorrect interpretation of scripture concerning the husband / wife relationship that is a major contributor to the high divorce rate in the Church.

Your H should read the description of the biblical wife in Proverbs 31. The woman in Proverbs 31 undoubtedly submits to her husband, but she also has freedom, power, and the respect of her husband. Her opinion matters, and her husband values the wisdom that she brings to the table.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is anything you can do to change your H. That will only happen if and when he has an epiphany. Just try to work on yourself and especially your self esteem.

This is the scripture I think should most apply. You cannot take the submissive part of it wihtout including the fact that you love your wife as yourself. So does he think it's ok to make you do something as important as sex against your will. Is this how he would treat himself?

Or as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. Many people do not realize what a tall order that is. He gave Himself for the church- and He tells husbands that is how they are to love their wives. Has your husband forgotten that part?

I hate this. I lived it for 12 years, and went to countless pastors for counseling, marriage seminars, read books, etc. He would not listen. I discovered a book on verbal abuse that really opened my eyes and I realized he was just using the Bible to bully me.....and that is NOT Chrisitianity or Christ like. Sadly, the only advice I can give you is to leave him; he'll never change, and you'll turn yourself inside out trying to live with it.

I hate this. I lived it for 12 years, and went to countless pastors for counseling, marriage seminars, read books, etc. He would not listen. I discovered a book on verbal abuse that really opened my eyes and I realized he was just using the Bible to bully me.....and that is NOT Chrisitianity or Christ like. Sadly, the only advice I can give you is to leave him; he'll never change, and you'll turn yourself inside out trying to live with it.

I think he has "right man syndrome", was just reading this today; Yes, xring; he has NOT attended church because though he does not expect them to be perfect (only the true bride of Christ will be spotless and pure; the wheat and tares grow together until the "harvest") and he is truly very critical of everyone; including me. He believes THAT HE IS the King of his home but he says that he does not want me to "be a servant" to him; part of this is; he would have to BE HUMBLE to receive from me when he can "Lord it over me" all that HE GIVES UP FOR ME. I am ready to STOP taking anything from him; today it was SWEET emails; he is preparing for SF tonight.


He is the head of the house as far as I am concerned but he acts more like an evil master in his attitude.

He doesn't see where the bible tells him that that is NOT the way it should be done.



That is good; respect and caring love is as far as I can go and I feel that romantic love (a farce right now; only used to manipulate me for SF IMHO) and LOVE is really pretty meager. I don't feel like I have much to offer.


I don't feel safe in expressing how I feel at all; he twists it to become my problem and almost says "that I am sinning". He hasn't crossed that line yet. I truly feel that I have very little love; a bit of despising and I truly do not want to feel this way.
I brought this up the other day; he didn't have much to say about it.


I told him that "I talked with my Father today" and reminded him that He can talk to my Father (about us) as well. Actual email:

From ME:
I talked to my Father just today about this...
He told me that "I hear from him and He does correct me" and that your job is to be my husband and lover and friend; NOT some mean ole' teacher standing over me with a ruler. He doesn't like that at all. He has even told you that "I am the weaker vessel", He means that I am fragile and lovely; not weak or needy. If you crush me, I will break. If I break; my Father may not be very happy about it. He might even get angry. He certainly feels hurt when I cry out to Him. I hope that you can make a good enough offer; He has VERY high standards. Good may be good enough; but it has to be most sincere and from the heart.Let me know what He tells you.

His response (in caps as well)

YOUR FATHERS STANDARDS ARE VERY HIGH AND HE HAS WRITTEN OUT EXACTLY WHAT HE EXPECTS FROM BOTH OF US. HE WANTS US TO FOLLOW IT TO THE LETTER EVEN THOUGH WE MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE WANTS IT THAT WAY.HE HAS LET ME KNOW THAT YOU ARE VERY VULNERABLE ESPECIALLY WHEN SERPENTS COME AROUND WHISPERING, “Yea, hath God said… (GEN 2:1)”

HE WANTS ME TO KNOW YOU MIGHT NEED SOME BIBLICAL GUIDANCE WHEN THIS HAPPENS BECAUSE YOU ARE THE WEAKER VESSEL.THERE ARE A LIST OF QUESTIONS IN YOUR BIBLE YOU MAY WANT TO PONDER CONCERNING THIS.
LOVE,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I appreciate prayers and I truly appreciate your kind and scriptural responses.

Oh, puhleaze!

Maybe you need to try a different church. Find one that treasures equal marriages.

If you stay in this marriage, in 5 years, you'll either be an alcoholic or dead.

Where is his love for you?

Dearheart, I encourage you to read James Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. It's full of scripture. Also, in Love Is a Decision, the author discusses how he used scripture to bully his wife and bring his marriage to the point of collapse. Only when she decided to leave him did he finally see what he was doing wrong. It took him a long time to earn her trust back. Because he had betrayed her this way.

You are asking us to give you scripture to try to reason with your husband with. Other folks have pointed it out, and you say, no, your H has already rejected these. Yes, dearheart, we get it, he's only interested in beating you down with scripture, not looking to get his path right at all. What about reading scripture and getting resources to lift YOURSELF up, and let your H work out his issues with Christ.

"But, no, if I only TRY HARDER, then he'd stop abusing me. If I only FIND THE RIGHT WORDS TO SAY, then he'd stop abusing me." No, if you stop continuing to volunteer to be abused, and start protecting yourself, that's when the abuse stops. You can do this!

Your H is just like my FIL. He twists scripture to suite his own needs and to feel justified in correcting others. My MIL divorced him after 16 years of marriage. I don't know how she tolerated him that long. About 10 years ago, his 2nd wife left him for a few weeks. He made some changes and has treated her a little better since then, but he still has a self-serving, self righteous attitude. He also does not attend church anywhere because all of them (local churches) are full of false teachers that don't recognize his superior wisdom in understanding God's word.

Eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

1 Cor 13:4-7

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

How Christians should express love to one another, and especially the H to the W, is clearly explained in 1 Cor 13. If he doesn't see that, he truly is unteachable. Like I said earlier, he is supposed to lead by example, not dictate and whine about how much he sacrifices for you or anyone else in the family.

You ultimately will have to decide how long you can tolerate living with an abuser. I think you should consider taking a "vacation" alone. Maybe that will get his attention.

Thanks for your comments catperson; I can see how triggering this is for you...I tried to warn every one of the very unique nature of our relationship because he is a very good man; he is a wonderful father and provider. He does laundry, cooks, pays all the bills and does MANY things for me and wants to be a BIG part of my life (he already is) and he is really a NICE man except for the demanding of SF...just wanted to clear that for you. Our church; the one that I have been in; is VERY good with marriages but he has not submitted himself to any authority to come to any understanding or place where he will participate in counseling; he feels "above it"...He is very unique; you would like him; most people do.

thank you; I will read them both. I am reading Dr. Harley's books and have read Patricia Evan's books on verbal abuse.
I agree; I am really looking at this as a spiritual warfare issue and I am "taking every thought captive" and laying it all out before the Lord...

Thanks for the encouragement and prayers.

Even Jesus showed compassion to the Pharisees by telling them of their wrongs; He did not "Lord it over them" and He is the only One who could!!! I gave my dh scriptures of God's tender love through Jesus and he said that "that is only part of His love"...and I retorted and "His judgement is NOT love; it is judgement..."


AMEN ...I know that is what God's love is. He has given His love to us through His Son and those who have the Son (Jesus) have life (and love).
He sounds terribly self-righteous; proud and arrogant; in ways he even appears that way to me; he covers it up for others.

That is a great idea; I can go visit my brother with my son and mother in the Spring; we will be gone for a week. I think I would really like that...too much.
Thank you all for your thoughtful and thought provoking posts.

DH

Here are some scriptures that might be helpful:


Proverbs 11:2 - “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.”

Proverbs 11:12 - “A man who lacks judgment derides his neighbor, but a man of understanding hold his tongue.”

Proverbs 11:14 - “For lack of guidance a nations falls, but many advisers make a victory sure.

Proverbs 11:16 - “A kindhearted woman gains respect, but ruthless men gain only wealth.”

Proverbs 11:17 - “A kind man benefits himself, but a cruel man brings trouble on himself.”

Proverbs 11:29 - “He who brings trouble on his family will inherit only wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise.”

Proverbs 12:1 - “Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid.”

Proverbs 12:8 - “A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.”

Proverbs 12:10 - “A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.”

Proverbs 12:15 - “The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.”

A side note in my Bible - "“Some proverbs, disarmingly obvious at first glance, offer deep truth when chewed on. For instance, verse 17 seems to merely repeat the obvious. But its underlying meaning is that a person’s character determines his or her actions. “

Proverbs 12:17 - “A truthful witness gives honest testimony, but a false witness tells lies.”

Proverbs 13:10 - “Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.”

Proverbs 13:13 - “He who scorns instruction will pay for it, but he who respects a command is rewarded.”

Proverbs 13:18 - “He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored.”
Proverbs 14:8 - “The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception.”

Proverbs 14:12 - “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.”

Proverbs 14:15 - “A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.”

Proverbs 14:29 - “A patient man has great understanding, but a quick-tempered man displays folly.”

Proverbs 15:1 - “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”

Proverbs 15:4 - “The tongue that brings healing is a tree of life, but a deceitful tongue crushes the spirit.”

Proverbs 15:12 - “A mocker resents correction; he will not consult the wise.”

Proverbs 15:17 - “Better a meal of vegetables where there is love than a fattened calf with hatred.”

Proverbs 15:18 - “A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a quarrel.”

Proverbs 15:22 - “Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed.”

Proverbs 15:23 - “A man finds joy in giving an apt reply - and how good is a timely word!”

Proverbs 15:25 - “The Lord tears down the proud man’s house but He keeps the widow’s boundaries intact.”

Proverbs 15:33 - “The fear of the Lord teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.”


HTH
Tama

dearheart, I know you think you know what you are talking about, but you are doing what every emotionally abused woman does when she finally cries out for help but the help tells her to NOT do what he wants: you make excuses for him.

If you were to read one of Patricia Evans' books, you would recognize yourself in them. She explains everything you have described in your posts. She calls them abusive behavior. Abusers are very charming; when they want to be. And they NEVER look bad to the outside world - only to the woman they control.

The only issue is SF? Let me repeat for you what you have already written about him, and I'd like to hear how you think this has anything to do with a loving NICE man:

for me to meet his SF need whether I feel like it or not

that NOT meeting my EN is no justification for me being unsubmissive

LOVING is also correcting

I had connected with good Pastor/counselor who was willing to counsel us at a church that I was attending last year; my dh would not meet with him and later; for other reasons, did not want me to continue to attend the church. (abusers remove you from your support system)

He is NOT willing to meet anyone

when I have an idea and he discourages it; I drop it. He tries to talk me out of it and say that I am not being submissive if I "keep it up".

when I disagree with him on an idea of his; I do not discourage him with "facts" or my opinion or knowledge or "feelings" on the subject. I listen and agree.

when he wants SF, I am to initiate it. If I do not, I am not being submissive.

Yielding my will, thoughts and plans to him (I keep 95% to myself and H&O have suffered due to LBs of demands and DJ)

I have friends who he is jealous of thinking of EA (with dear friend for years but we were always and have always been very close partners in ministry)

He has told me that he is not only authority but that I am inferior to him; but he has softened this up to say "You will NOT control me; I will NOT change!"

entitlement attitude turned me off so much that I was sick to my stomach

One pastor called him "unteachble"

I am back to feeling manipulated rather than loved.

I think he has "right man syndrome

he is truly very critical of everyone; including me

he does not want me to "be a servant" to him; part of this is; he would have to BE HUMBLE to receive from me when he can "Lord it over me" all that HE GIVES UP FOR ME

he acts more like an evil master in his attitude

I feel that romantic love (a farce right now; only used to manipulate me for SF IMHO) and LOVE is really pretty meager.

I don't feel safe in expressing how I feel at all; he twists it to become my problem and almost says "that I am sinning".

These are the acts and words of a controlling man who has hit a goldmine because he knows all he has to do to get what he wants is quote Bible verse to you.

OK Dearheart, I don't know if I can help or hurt the situation but let me begin with this...Your husband will likely not listen to anything you tell him anyway, so the passages that you show him he will not accept. This is because he will say that his interpretation is different than what the text clearly indicates. How do I know this? Because he has taken a passage of scripture from the book of Revelation that says it is about Christ's indictment of certain churches and claims that these passages apply to marriage. At the same time, he claims that those passages that clearly SAY they are about marriage he will not accept as such. This is NOT a case of misinterpreting scripture. It is nothing more than application of abuse of power to get his own selfish way.

My personal opinion is that you leave him until he gets his poop piled in one place.

I'm guessing that isn't your plan, so let me see if I can give you any help. The problem of course is that no matter what you say to him he isn't going to accept it. So the best I think we can do is to show you that what he is doing is not according to scripture.

To begin with, the word for love used in Rev 2 verse 4 (first love) is the word αγαπην (a form of the word agape) which has nothing to do with the love between a man and a woman at all. It is the kind of love talked about in I Corinthians 13 and is an unconditional love. But Christ is saying that the church has abandoned what it first learned and believed. Like many churches today they had gotten caught up in false doctrines and lies brought in from those who twisted scripture for their own purposes. Christ is admonishing them to return to the simple message of Christ and Him crucified as payment for sins that they once accepted and now had begun to abandon in the name of more intellectual message probably related to Gnosticism which had become a serious issue by the middle of the first century.

Now in verse 19 of chapter 3 the word for love that is used is the word φιλω (transliteration is philo) from which we get the word Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love. The word again has no meaning in regard to love between a man and a woman and could easily be translated as "to care deeply about." So here Christ is saying, "Those that I care deeply about, I will chastise," or more simply, correct so that they don't wander away from the truth.

So neither passage has anything to do with marriage.

On the other hand, the passage already mentioned says that it applies to husbands and wives. This passage also uses the word αγαπε (agape)as it's word for love but know it says that a husband is to love (unconditionally) his wife as his own body. It also says that he is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. But Christ loved the church so much that He gave His life for her. In fact, He willingly gave Himself to die in her place though He Himself had done nothing wrong as a payment for her sins.

Now I would suggest that if he were to love you like that you might be interested in sex more often.

But that leads me to another question, do you ever agree to have sex with him or do you withhold it from him until he demands it. Because Paul also says that we no longer own our own bodies but our spouse owns it as well. And ultimately, Christ owns all of us and He commands us to give of our own bodies freely to our spouse.

So while I probably can't talk your husband out of his twisting of scripture because he isn't here and wouldn't be likely to listen to any argument that does not uphold his misdirected beliefs, I can tell you that sex is a very real need for a man and a wife should not routinely withhold it as a way to punish or disrespect her husband.

There is an entire book of the Bible that is all about romantic love between a husband and wife, BTW and that book is The Song of Songs (aka: The song of Solomon). It describes quite well what passionate erotic love between a husband and his wife should be. Oh, and nowhere in that book does demanding sex appear either...

With that out of the way, why not read the Basic Concepts and a few of the threads on these forums. You might also like to read the book, Fall In Love Stay In Love by Dr Harley. Another book that might interest you is Lasting Love by Alistair Begg. The first you can get from the bookstore on this site. The second you can get from Truth For Life Ministries. Just Google Search for life and you should find it.


Mark

Thank you Tama...
Proverbs 12:15 -
“The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.”
I would say that any person is a fool who disrespectually judges and tries to control his wife with scripture (when she is a "good" wife; works full time; in ministry and dedicates time and effort to caring for him...) and thus may have to face the reality that THIS is NOT what God intended in marriage.

You are right Catperson...thank you. He has told me that he cannot and WILL not change.
That's correct. Yet, when I asked him about Matthew 18 he said He "the speaker" was not referring to marriage when he was quoting that scripture. WELL, it seems to me that Matthew 18 could apply to marriage as well...and it just might very soon.
I believe so. He is always saying "see what a good husband I am" (see how deserving I am of SF and how BAD you are when you don't give it to me.)He thinks that he is deserving and entitled to all of me no matter how he speaks or behaves. I believe that he needs a rude awakening. We had another clear issue of jealousy; over a music relationship in church where he says that I am submitting to a man but not him and he demands that I "do music" and submit to him (my dh) the way that he sees me submit (follow instructions) from the worship leader.

I have learned this also. I believe that he is controlling and self-centered; not loving me as Christ loves the church by acting this way.

I have told him this; this past month is evidence of ENs being met all around. He has started the "you will submit" with me again. Sex is only a part of the relationship to the women;. I liken a woman's "need" for sex as the need to have monthly menstruation. It is only necessary if you are interested in bearing a child and if the woman's body is not healthy enough she will stop having her monthly cycle. Women CAN do without sex; we cannot thrive without relationship. We can wither and die in a suffocating marriage no matter how "christian" it may seem.
That's a good question and he says that I have witheld from him twice; I was literally dead on my feet; working full time and then he woke me and then kept me up arguing and I had to work all day on 3 hours sleep. (I did not make love to him after any arguement; he went to sleep dissatisfied in more ways than one.)I have never intentionally withheld except for times after conversations or lack there of when I did not feel safe and therefore was repelled by him. I told him so and my feelings were not respected as valid. He says that I have no valid reason to withold sex from him...he says that I "deny him" by not appearing to "be available" or when I do not "intiate". I told him a few weeks ago that I will not continue to do that and if he wants SF, he will have to initate and not start right when we are getting into bed. I feel like our relationship is all hinged on his control and SF; it sickens me.
I have learned this; he has begun to learn that my ENs are the ticket also to the "happy marriage" that we are all talking about. Then he begins with the "you will submit". This does NOTHING for a woman's libido. A woman cannot betray her heart and give her body only.
I have read the wonderful material on this site; looked over Dr. Harley's other books and have been reading FIL<SIL, this is the book that my dh and I have looked at together. It is going back to the library today and I am going to stop reading marriage books; they are for "normal" marriages and not for abusive ones.

NEW update and question for anyone interested in giving a thought.

My dh's doctrine is this:once a woman is married, God will speak to her husband through his Holy Spirit and then he will tell her what she should do. He says that the Holy Spirit will NOT speak to me and tell me to do something that he hasn't already told me (to submit to.)

I think this is all that I needed to hear from his mouth. I know that the Holy Spirit speaks to me; very clearly at times. I am very saddened FOR HIM for having to "pull this card", I am sure it is one of the "final submit" cards and he is hoping that I will accept it as truth...NOT!~

Please keep us in your prayers.

DH,

I'm a bit short on time right now as I have to get to church where I am involved in OUR music ministry...

But I'd like to pursue this from that angle a little later. For now, think about this question...Have you ever ignored, blown off or purposefully gone against your husband's wishes in order to participate in the music ministry?

I have follow up questions but that's all for now.

Mark

I would love to minister with my dh in music ministry; we have on several occassions and though I am a worship leader and singer, he would say that he picks at the guitar; doesn't read music or sing and plays pretty much by chord. He would not consider any of my requests for songs, tempo, asking if he would play while I prayed, etc because he "was leading it". He would not allow me the freedom to "lead" him with anything so you can imagine that I was "just singing" as best that I could.

I have never purposefully gone against his wishes in order to participate in music ministry. He acknowledges my calling in worship ministry and he has admitted in counseling "he likes what I do", he is just wanting me to do it FOR HIM because he thinks that in being in a praise team that I am "submitting" to the WL (keyboardist who has given me much freedom in "worship" and will "let the river of the Spirit flow; so to speak)rather than to my husband. He is jealous about the musical relationship with one other male (a dear brother in the Lord) who I have (with one other member also) recorded a project and ministered outside the church before my dh and I met. There is NO reason at all for any jealousy.

My dh has been so demanding (selfishly so that he does not try to get me involved or ask me to do something with him) and he has told me that "he will not collaborate" with me musically but just wants me to "do it his way" and I find it an impossible thing for me to do...I have past abuse issues which this triggers and I feel trapped, confined and controlled to the point that I just have to withdrawl. He then tells me that I am "not submitting to him as I should".

He will not allow me to finish a very clear sentence. He doesn't want to hear what I think. He told me today that I do not hear from the Holy Spirit and that since he is "my head" that the Lord will not tell me something without telling him

I am going to counseling and telling my dh that I need his assistance in this matter. I am unable to reconcile the fact that his selfishness and demanding of submission IS biblically based.


thanks for reading and praying.

I just don't understand why you feel a marriage to someone who clearly sees you as his property - not his mate - is worth keeping? Patricia Evans' books are good to start with.

OK, this is my second attempt at this...

Dearheart,

I have a couple of possible posts saved but I'm not posting them yet because I would like to know a couple of things first.

What church (denomination) do you belong to?

Does your husband attend church regularly or do you typically go alone or with DS?

Who would you say is the most influential person in your husband's life?

Same question as applies to you, who is the biggest influence in your life?

If your entire argument with your husband is to boil down to what God has revealed to you over and against what God has revealed to him, there isn't a whole lot anybody here can do for either of you, because honestly, I'm not real comfortable with individual revelation when it contradicts the revelation we already have in scripture.

And I am not saying God cannot or does not speak directly to us today, only that God never contradicts Himself and so any revelation made to me must align entirely with scripture and not be in antithesis to what it teaches. God has had one plan all along and doesn't need a NEW one now.

Mark

Technically; we are members no where at this time; we both became members at our current church years ago...the church no longer requires mandatory membership for service. This is pleasing to my dh. Born again, bible-based, non-denominational.
He has only just started back with me (due to work schedule)at the church where we first met and I have ministered at for many years. I have been there about a year; was away due to his insistence for about 3 years. We have always gone together whenever he was available and he prefers this church over all others.
I think an uncle who died at a young age; there was much domestic violence in their home. He is not close to his mother but has tried to be. He feels pretty much alone in this world; present company included. He might be demanding more of me because of his lack. He has no male friends and no hobbies to speak of; his total being is centered around his family. I think his expectation of me is just too great.
MANY fine godly people have influenced me. As a woman; I have had several mentors and still have "older sisters" in the Lord. (One who 'discipled' me; one who was a 'prayer mentor' to me; vocalists who were christians whom I ministered with, etc....so many) Family wise; I have my parents but my older brother has always been there for me. My father and I have never been close emotionally until I began to care for them in our home for about a year. Musically, I have had several teachers and peers who have encouraged me. That is hard to answer as one person other than my Lord Jesus who saved me and gave me a new life in Him!
I am unsure of what you are saying with this. My dh has agreed with my christian lifestyle and "working out my faith" up until this part of submission that you have stated that scriptures appear to have been misapplied from Revelation and Christ's "love for us" to our marriage. Our views of scripture; our christian life together and ministry are very similar. We do not watch TV or do "worldly" entertainment of any kind. We invest our lives into our children and care for our family. We work hard; play a little and rest in the Lord.

My dh likes and appreciates my worship ministry but contends that I am not submitting to him as he sees me submit to others in ministry. There is a jealousy that he wants me to work with him in the ways that he sees that I am able to work with others of equal or greater musical gifting. He wants me to follow him musically; which is not feasible or likely since he is not one who is willing to accept my input; which I have as I have written music and recorded. I think he just wants this part of me all to himself; a need which I would really like to fulfill but he is so demanding that I musically do it his way that I feel "used". My father and first husband (though I thought were nothing alike; my dh is even different still) both seemed to receive "kudos" for my singing and that was the only time I received recognition from them. I have not(and will not)use my gift to be accepted or loved and I will not allow my gift to bring glory to anyone but God.

We have talked about what God has called him and us to do in ministry and he has no answers; so in the meantime, I am doing what I know to do. I have told him that I cannot support him if he doesn't tell me what he wants to do. He has agreed that he has not told me and that it is correct that I cannot support what I do not know to support...He is very secretive and feels that my input is criticizing his work; he will not collaborate with me in music when we can "brainstorm" and add to a work already in progress...He will not take any musical suggestions on his songs and will not play my songs as I request...He has said that I must do things "his way" or I am not being submissive to him.

My desire to fulfill his SF need has really been challenged but I have worked very hard and been very conscious in the past month to meet it as best as I can. A woman can only "set so much aside" before she feels that she is just in the marriage for SF. I have tried very hard to overlook his "lectures" (DJ; he calls them "instruction") to feel that the heart of my husband is tender toward me so I can safely approach him. He would get much more (and he has)from me if he would kindly intreat me and humbly state what he wants. I would do about anything for him. (But I would prefer not to sing a certain style of music but I have because he likes it)

I know that many women would/could not go to these lengths that I have to stand for healing in my marriage. They do not understand why I have stayed with him. They see me as weak and that is NOT the case; I would have left years ago if the Lord had not given me the strength. The LBs have been around the submission and SF issues; other than that I would say that we have a very good relationship and potentially great marriage. It has been getting better all the time. It has boiled down to these two issues; I guess for being a woman; if my dh could not be displeased with me any more than he is then I would have to be perfect in every way. I will not give up on what God has called me to do...that is love my dh and serve the Lord with my music.

You're describing abusive behavior. Have you read Patricia Evans' books? They might do you some good. Anything would be better than the knowledge you currently are basing your decisions on.

I have read about every one of Patricia's books and I have personally spoken to her.(she also has a private forum) I have read about every marriage (christian and "not-so" christian) book available including Dr. Harley's FIL/SIL, LB and HNHN. I think I have enough "knowledge" to understand that his behavior has been abusive (he has admitted that); but what I base my decisions on is not the wisdom of this world...
I began my posting with:
***real biblical advise requested*** (please try to look beyond what this may "seem" to be to give biblical and godly counsel...thanks.)
I was hoping that since this is a christian forum that we could refrain from treating it in the discounting way as the world would; without compassion and the love of God.

This conflict that we feel in marriage (mainly due to our hedonism and self-centeredness) is opportunity for change...have you read Gary Thomas' book "Sacred Marriage"? His subtitle is "what if God didn't intend marriage to make you happy but to make you holy?. I am ready his "Sacred Influence" right now.

I love my husband and I do not want to just label him as an abuser and be done with him. I admittedly have "labeled" him a verbally abusive husband and have gone back and forth due to the number of "discussions"; their intensity and frequency and how he has chosen and learned what is acceptable and what is abusive. He has apologized when I have viewed his speech as abusive. He has made his ENs known to me and sees that I care to meet them and he has been meeting mine in a more assertive way. I have learned that our perspective colors every behavior we have; if I see him as an "abuser" and deal with him as an "abuser" rather than loving and respecting him as my husband then I have failed as a christian woman to do what God has commanded me. God doesn't love us or has saved us because we are good enough. If he would just label us as "sinners" and cast us aside; what kind of love would that be?

Thank you for posting catperson; I sincerly appreciate your thoughts but I am trying to "take it to a higher level" and was hoping that since so many couples are trying to make their christian marriages work on this forum that this would be a place to find some who are making it work by really trusting God to give us what we all need. I am saddened to see the vast number of christians who are giving up and using their own knowledge to cast aside the precious gift of marriage and their spouses. What ever happened to standing on the promises of God and walking by faith?

This was my point of reference for this comment...

What my point about this was that if you feel that God is revealing things directly to you and he feels that God is revealing things directly to him and the two are somehow in contradiction you can't both be receiving revelation from God. One or both of you can be wrong, at least one of you must be wrong and you both might be wrong...God does not contradict what he has already said and cannot reveal conflicting things to two different people regarding the same topic.

That said, it is also true that God has already revealed to us his model for marriage and one of the most basic things He has revealed is that marriage is to be forever. But at the same time he has given us things that He requires from each of us within the marriage.

Now one of those things is to submit to one another. We are not just told that the woman is to submit to the man but that both are to submit to the other. While this sounds like a leadership problem, it is is really a matter of the heart that is at stake here. We want a marriage to be give and take but it is really give and give.

I have been involved in our church's media presentation and music ministry almost as long as we have been a church. My wife was involved as a member of the worship team for many years and today she sits by my side working on the media presentation. But I have to tell you that if my wife had a problem with me working in the ministry I would stop in a heartbeat. I would hope that she would feel the same way as well. Any ministry that divides a marriage needs to be re-evaluated at its core.

Now I am not saying that when a non-believing spouse forces a decision between following Christ or walking away from the marriage that walking away from the marital relationship can't be the right thing. But here we are talking about two people, both claiming to be followers of the risen Christ, both claiming intimate first hand revelation from God the Father and in opposition to each other at some level.

But I can say without reservation that the thing we have the most resistance to in our lives is the very thing that God will choose to work on most diligently. Your husband claims that God has revealed to him that you need to be "corrected" whatever that is supposed to mean. And you claim that God has revealed to you that your husband is not to correct you but merely to be your lover and your friend...

I would suggest that you might both be wrong and yet both be right. Your husband is not responsible for your choices and yet he is told to provide direction to the family including his wife. But just like Christ, he is to do that by example and not merely by discipline.

On the other side we have your view that he needs to focus more on being your husband and less on being your teacher. My guess is that you don't feel very submissive toward him at all. You want to do what YOU want to do and can find a way for it to be about the things of God and your husband wants things to be the way HE wants them to be and can find the basis for that in the words of God as well. You are at an impasse. God told him you need to submit and God told you that he needs to stay out of your business.

The thing here is that you have no control over how your husband acts or what he thinks (though you do have much greater influence than you would imagine). What you do have control over is yourself and your own choices.

What I suggest you apply to this is Dr Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement combined with his Policy of Radical Honesty. Your husband clearly has a problem with something that you are doing and the way you are doing it. This raises all sorts of red flags but even more are raised by the fact that you are attempting to maintain the very conditions that you know he has a problem with. So he wants you to change and you want to not change above all else.

Could this be not merely about submission but about Independent Behavior? You neither one seem to be taking the others feelings into account and are both acting selfishly, from what I can see. You expect him to let you do what you want to do and he expects you to do only what he wants you to do. You can't both be right and I would suggest that as it applies to marriage you are probably both wrong. His Selfish Demands take away from your willingness to submit to him and you IB diminishes his acceptance of your desires in life.

Now the fact that he seems to have no one that holds him accountable might be an issue and the fact that he does not really act like the Godly leader of the family that he is called to be can be a problem the whole family has to deal with, but from what I can see, the only person you have control over is yourself. And if your husband wants you to NOT be involved in the music ministry, then you need to evaluate why you can't comply with that request.

But I think this is as much a Love Bank problem as it is a biblical problem. His SDs wipe out your feelings of love for him and your IB does the same to his side of the equation. The result is a state of conflict and unless one or the other makes a move to lead you out of that state, you will both end up in withdrawal and then you will have peace, but at the expense of having a growing and thriving relationship because neither of you will care any more.

Again, he's not here and you are. You can't change him, only yourself. You resist what he claims is biblical submission by the wife to her husband, but are you in fact submitting as the Bible describes?

The reason I asked about people of influence and denomination was to quickly try to ascertain what set of core beliefs you both might have so that I had some kind of idea where to take the conversation. Since you described your core beliefs very much like I might describe my own, I did not get a clear sense of how to proceed so I just decided to cut to the chase and state what I wanted to say.

Mark

I understand your viewpoint and your desire, but if you fully read the Harley's message, you will have found in it that Dr. Harley states that no techniques will work until the abuse is addressed and erased. In fact, it says that the abuser will actually turn the work you do around on you to hurt you even more.

God wants you to fix yourself, does he not?

You have said yourself - repeatedly - that you have found Scripture upon Scripture to read to him and he discounts all of it.

So what exactly do you think is going to happen? Are you waiting for an angel to come down and poke him on the shoulder and he suddenly 'gets it'?

I don't understand what you think is going to happen.

Cat,

We're going two directions here, so I'll bow out for now. Dearheart, you can lok me up when you want my input.

Mark

Mark, don't do that. I'll leave. She doesn't want to hear what I have to say anyway. She'll just sit around and wait for her miracle - the one God expects her to create.

Cat,

You can email me if you want to know the direction I was trying to go with this line of reasoning.

I would prefer that someone else be included in email exchanges that I have with women though...

Mark

Well, my dh has been very kind and has not made any SD and I have been very consciously meeting his need for SF. At first it felt more like a "have to" and now, since he is verbally kinder and more affectionate, I look forward to it. A little kindness goes a LONG way for a woman.

What I am learning is what I thought was even manipulation (and I think that this is "controlling" and felt that it was unbecoming to a christian wife) in "providing SF" even when my heart was not quite in it; is really like giving a baby what he needs. A baby cannot verbalize that he is hungry; that his diaper is wet or that he has a tummy ache. In many ways, I think that we as women can carefully look at these cues (DJ, SD and AA---have been the worst three for me)as "cries for help" rather than the aggressive, hateful and controlling weapons that they may appear to be. I am learning to "hear his words and what he means" rather hastily respond to his anger. More honesty and openess be needed to accomplish the goal.

I feel that since I have respected his position as my husband but not the behavior he was exhibiting that I felt less need to overwhelm him with my "feelings". I decided to "withdrawl in a good way"...and NOT burden him with my feelings, I am seeing that he is less likely to feel overwhelmed and criticized (when I am not happy; he feels that he is to blame; I think most men do).

dearheart, are you still around?

Did things improve with your H meeting any of your needs?

Hi Cat...YES...things have improved greatly and what appears to be "more permanent" asENs are being met all over the place.

I never thought that my dh would get so cranky; feel so unloved or feel disrespected if we had s*x at least once/twice a week. (average once a week anyways)That seemed like a lot to me. What I understand NOW is that he seems to want it DAILY but every other day is working out well for us. He knew I was tired last night but helped with dinner dishes after we had dinner and then had a few errands before settling in for the night. He put the kids to bed and gave me time to freshen up. He is MUCH more attentive, affectionate and gives me much more non-sexual touch (hand holding while talking in the car) and holding hands when walking. There is MUCH less stress in our relationship. I told him that I really need to HEAR his views on "the change" in his behavior.
He admitted that he was "being abusive" (not intentionally consciously abusive, if you know what I mean) and that he was acting badly toward me to "get what he wanted" and he realizes and admitted verbally that he was WRONG.

I can't help but think that this all coincides with him returning to worshipping with me and kids as a family at our church where we met. He feels that he belongs there and looks forward to attending.

I will have to say that these books HN/HN and FIL/SIL are two fo the most helpful that we have seen along the lines of meeting each others needs. My view on him has even changed. These books and this forum helped me work through anger toward my husband. Talking with him about these concepts and feeling love from him with the acknowledgement of my needs was very healing overall. I feel that he sees me and loves me as his wife...a person, not someone who is here to meet his needs...I feel loved, I feel cherished. He has "won my heart" with tenderness; SO EASY that he just can't believe it!

You mentioned that we need to focus on admitting the verbal or abusive behavior before it can be dealth with but I have found that a man's (my man anyways) pride will not allow him to verbally admit that at first; he has to be shown and PROVED that his behavior is NOT right and that his wife's behavior is NOT wrong all the time but that she is responding to his lack of meeting her ENs as well...it can be a crazy cycle and someone has to say STOP...my dh has admitted that I was the one who stood by him and loved him through this...

You mentioned that I was waiting for a miracle that would come through me... well...the miracle part was my tolerance and patience to do stay with him and do only do what I could do but I had to be willing first. The miracle in his heart is from God. God just uses those who are willing and I was willing to be used by God for my husband's and our marriage's healing.I know that He brought us together for healing. It has not been easy but I know that I have a good man and I am very glad that I did not give up on him. He is too...

Marriage is NOT impossible...we can be so stubborn and stupid at times and more self-serving than Christ and spouse-serving and then we expect things to be good in our marriages.
Gary Thomas said it best in "Sacred Mariage"...
what if God didn't intend for marriage to make us happy but to make us HOLY?"


thanks for asking...blessings to you and all who have followed this thread...

So glad to hear of your success!