HW, no one ever said abuse, rape or losing a child is not devastating, though, so I don't know what you are talking about.

What was said is that "Dr Harley equates the trauma of adultery to that of RAPE or the death of a child." This is based on his many clients who actually call the trauma of adultery WORSE. No one has ever said that individual mileage doesn't vary.

What is arrogant is to dismiss the pain of adultery victims when you have never experienced it yourself. Many call it the worse thing they have ever experienced.

I think the big difference is how rape, domestic violence, and losing a child is viewed in society. How many movies or TV shows do you see glorifying rape, death of a child or DV? None. However, the top grossing movie ever involved a foggy fiance living a fantasy on board an unsinkable ship that ended up at the bottom of the ocean along with her adultry partner. Heck, 90 years later she was still foggy! Adultry is glorified in the entertainment industry.

After a time, the BS can expect people who are close to them but have not been through it to say "get over it", "move on". Do you hear that about rape victims? DV victims? Also, there is no "justice" for a BS. No fault divorce has ensured that. Yet, if you are a victim of DV, all you need to do is walk into the courthouse and you will get a restraining order.

What is so devastating about adultry is how the WS is often times viewed as the victim and the BS the evil one. In my sitch, my exWW's adultry is the worst thing that has happened not only to me, but to my parents, my exMIL, and my exSIL.

Adultry is abuse. It's time it is treated with the same respect as other forms of domestic violence.

Not true. Should be true, but isn't. It takes more balls than most women have...I took one out against my xh, and he was allowed an appearance before the judge before being granted...he didn't show, so it was granted...lucky for me, not lucky for the girl he was schmoozing at the time, who he later shot.

Respect for PSUBIKER. He got served by his WW on multiple occasions and had to spend God knows how much in attorney fees to get them quashed.

At the risk of stirring the pot, I also wanted to ask this:

I don't at all want to minimize your personal tragedy, Mel -- and any one of the things you mention would be enough to sink a normal person. You're clearly not normal, although I mean that in the best possible way :-).

Still, I'm just curious. Your current husband isn't the one you beat up on the roadside, is it? I only ask because it seems like important perspective if we're going to talk about domestic abuse. And the cheers you've gotten here for that beatdown have never actually sat well with me for some reason -- just full disclosure on my part. You've cast that beating as justified by what you went through, so what gives you the standing to talk about whether domestic abuse is equivalent to adultery?

Jim, I have never justified the beat down of my husband, so your first premise is wrong. Even though I don't understand how it could be relevant.

Secondly, did you read the quotes I posted? A more thorough reading would probably clarify the issue for you, but I will post it again. Dr. Willard Harley, a clinical psychologist, has equated it OFTEN. I believe he has some "standing." Here is the text of his words and you can hear him making the equation in the video at this link:

How to Survive Infidelity

Hope that clarifies the issue for you.

And Jim, not that I have justified any beating, but I would like an explanation of your comment that one needs to have some sort of "standing" to state a true fact? It is a true fact that many view adultery as traumatic as rape, physical assault or the death of a child. You can't deny that. Or are you denying that?

By what standard does one need a "standing" to state a true fact? And why? Can you make sense of that comment?

******************edit****************

The fact is, physical beatings can hurt you worse than adultery, because they can leave you dead or permanently disabled. That is a fact. I don't at all mean to minimize the psychological and emotional pain of adultery, because, you know, it sucks. Mightily. And we all know that. But at the end of the day, you can walk away from the abuse of adultery. You don't actually get that choice if you're left in a wheelchair -- or worse, a coffin.

The issue of "standing" here is essentially one of being fully honest with ourselves. ******edit*****if you're going to lecture other people about the relative pain of adultery and domestic abuse? I certainly do. And I make no apologies for it.

************edit************

Jim, but this still makes no sense. Lets say that I celebrate the anniversary of that beat down every year. What does that have to do with citing the true fact that many view adultery as traumatic as assault? Would the celebration of that beat down somehow negate that true fact? How?

Does that even sound rational to you? Are only certain people, with the right qualifications, allowed to point to Dr Harley's oft-stated position that adultery is the worst thing that can happen to someone?

Are you denying Dr. Harleys very words on this subject? On what grounds? You have not experienced rape, physical assualt, or the death of a child so it is puzzling that you would arbitrarily dismiss the experience of others. Does that make sense to dismiss an experience you have a) never experienced yourself and b) have no professional standing by which to comment. Again, please read Dr Harley's words, Jim.


C'mon, you are grasping at ways to criticize and have really overreached with this one.

I've had 4 Protection orders filed against me. All 4 have been dismissed after a hearing in front of a judge. In all states, the burden of proof on these is a preponderance of evidence which is 51/49. Beyond a reasonable doubt is more like 90/10. My ex was finally found in contempt for filing false charges after the 4th one. In all 4 cases, all she did was walk into the courthouse and say she's afraid of me. However, the first one served it's purpose. The hearing was 5 days after she filed it. She got a continuance which delayed things for six weeks but in the meantime, temporary orders were issued that gave her possesion of the house, temporary support, and every other weekend visitation. All without me saying one word in my defense. It got me out of the house so she could move her boyfriend in. The "DV" system allwed my ex to legally throw me out of the house and require me to support her and by proxy her homeless and jobless affair partner since he has not had a job in 10 years. The system is broken and broken in a big way.

I have spent close to 10K on the "DV" system to prove that I didn't do anything. Sorry, but the Protection of Abuse process has been abused because it is the cheapest and most efficient way for someone to get an extremely favorable divorce settlement. Think about it, in my case, the ex got possesion of the house, temporary support, and defacto every other weekend visitation for me. All it cost her was $60 in filing fees, and $200 in attorney costs. Fortunatley for me, after the first petition was dismissed, the ex had a change of heart and agreed to 50/50 custody. If she didn't, I would have been every other weekend dad. On the day of my custody hearing, there were 70 protection order hearings scheduled that day. On most days, only about 10-20% are actually upheld.

I'm not grasping at straws. *****EDIT*******

Yes, many may view adultery as an assault that's as traumatic as physical abuse. I believe that's true up to the point where domestic abuse can leave someone crippled or dead. At that point, there's no comparison. Adultery hurts, no question. It can permanently mess people up psychologically. But it does not leave them dead or crippled. That is a fact.

So of course I don't question your right to cite what Bill Harley writes, or what other folks have been through. I do think, though, that there's a clear line to draw between the terrible pain of adultery and violence that can leave you dead. ***************edit********

Jim, please read what is being said here. My background and your background are irrelevant to this issue. What is relevant is that many people [on this board and in Dr Harley's professional practice] have stated that adultery is WORSE THAN physical assault, rape and the death of the child. While it may not be YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, that does not negate their experience. You have no grounds on which to negate the experience of others.

It is the height of arrogance to negate the personal experiences of other people. As someone who has experienced both physical assault and the death of a child, I will tell you that adultery is the most traumatic of all. Beating up my husband does not change that true fact, nor does it disqualify me from stating that this has been Dr. Harley's experience in hundreds of cases.

You have no grounds whatsoever to dismiss the experience of others, Jim. You have backed yourself into a corner on this one.

First off, I have not hidden that fact that I beat up my H when I found him with his OW. One incident does not a "violent" person make, Jim. That is silly.

Even so, you've not been able to support your assertion that my background, and most especially yours since you have NO point of comparison, would negate the very real and true experiences of others. Our backgrounds are not relevant to that issue.

It seems to me like you are working overtime to find ways to impugn me, Jim. And this line of attack does not serve you well, friend.

Of course, the dead don't speak up on this board. Those who have been permanently disabled by domestic abuse are an apparent minority as well.

I am not negating anyone's experience. I've suffered the pain of adultery. So have you. I have not suffered the pain of the death of a child. Apparently you have, and I grieve for that. I have a five-year-old who I love more than life itself, and even thinking about the possibility of bad things happening to him puts me right on the edge of the emotional cliff. So I can imagine -- but only that -- what I'd feel if something truly terrible were to happen. And I don't know that I could recover from that. I know that I could recover from adultery. That's my personal experience.

And that is your personal experience, and it's entirely relevant to the discussion. *********edit**********

Years ago, my dad was on a jury in a case where a betrayed spouse killed her cheating husband with a shotgun. The jury found her guilty of murder. The law is pretty clearly on the side of weighting physical assault as a greater crime than adultery. Again, I am not minimizing the pain of infidelity, having suffered it myself. But it did not leave me dead or in a wheelchair. I knew that I would get through it one way or another. That's a choice often denied to the victims of domestic abuse.

I'm not dismissing anyone's experience. In fact, I think all experiences are relevant here. **************edit**********

The topic is----
Exposure--Bill Harley speaks in the newsletter."

Let's get back to the topic!!

This thread will be locked if the personal attacks don't stop NOW!

**edit**

Moderator's note: Lets get back on topic please.

Many, many studies show that women are just as likely to be abusive, including pysically abusive, as men, Some studies found that women are more frequently abusive.
So, if abuse plays a part in the decision to cheat, why is it that more male WSs are not using that as the reason they cheat. Statistically, there are just as many abused men. Yet, we do not see many WHs saying they were abused and seeking to be saved.
I think this indicates that the women that cheat and claim abuse are often lying.

This is very common, the double standard re female on male physical abuse.
And, the claims of neglect are also very common. One writer on the subject of women's infidelity, Michelle Langely, points out that in most of these cases of alleged neglect, the WW was a poor communicator and would not take responsibility for both her unrealistic expectations, the hypocrisy of failing to do her own part in meeting her husband's emotional needs while expecting he meet hers, and the expectation of clairvoyance.

Zelmo, this finding is the opposite of what I read in Dr. H's article Why Women Leave Men. In that article, men who start using POJA restore their marriage.

ML, I understand that adultery can be harder than domestic violence on the BS as a person. But if you look at the whole family, Dr. H recommends leaving for a year in cases of domestic violence, whereas in infidelity there is a clear way home presented in Plan B that doesn't have that year requirement. Also recidivism is very high in domestic violence, where hopefully using MB's idea of extraordinary precautions, the marriage can recover from infidelity with no slips back into it. I think it's sad but true that while folks can recover from infidelity together, and have a better marriage than they ever had, that in cases of domestic violence, there is no such thing as recovering a great marriage. At best you get a life of looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life. I know women whose dread doesn't ease even after their abuser has passed away.

And like other have said, I imagine it must be a sad life for male victims of domestic violence, too.

I agree that the recovery for all of those traumas may be different but it is not true that marriages with domestic assault don't recover: many do. Marriages that suffer adultery also look over their shoulder for life. For example, even though the trauma of losing my child was as bad as adultery, the RECOVERY is not the same. I have mostly recovered from the adultery; I will never recover from losing my child. But by "recovery" of the adultery, I don't mean recovery of the marriage, but personal recovery, because he is still with his OW. Our marriage was destroyed over his adultery. But when those tragedies happened, the trauma of the adultery was just as bad as the trauma as losing my child, if not worse.

Keep in mind that many marriages do not recover from adultery, and children most certainly are very affected. Divorce is devastating to children. We see the devastation on this forum every day. And I would disagree that marriages with domestic abuse can't be recovered. Dr Harley has counseled many such couples and they are in happy marriages today. [there are several over on the weekend forum] Marriage Builders principles work just as well for adultery as they do domestic assault.