HOLD you did not push her into stealing, lying, or being disrespectful to you.

Hold...Do you feel threatened by her weight loss? Do you feel, possibly, less desirable in some way?

True. It is like an affair. I may have created conditions. But she made the choice to do what she did.

Still, I would appreciate you editing out the most strident portions of your message from 12:09 pm. Thanks.

Threatened? No. I dealt with that with the viagra. At this point, if she cheats, that will just help me end the marriage without being the "bad guy".

Less desirable? No. No way for me to feel less desirable than I already feel. I never had a hot bod. There have been times when I was more fit and times when less fit. I have worn my hair longer and shorter. Grew a beard and then shaved it off. My physical appearance and fitness have never made much difference in how Mrs. Hold treats me.

Neither has her looks or fitness. She treated me just as poorly when we first got married and she had a killer bod as she did when she gained weight after the kids. She treats me the same now that she has lost some of the weight and gotten much fitter.

I had hoped that her getting fit and losing weight might affect how she feels about herself and about sex. But I guess we are too far down the road for it to affect how she feels about me. Then again, I always thought it would affect how I think about her, and it hasn't done that either. I feel just as angry and bitter and resentful as before she lost the weight. Which pretty much explains everything.

Okay.

Listen Hold...you've got what - 6 years before your youngest is gone? Can't remember.

How about you just concentrating on being civil, respectful, and a great dad, while doing your best to improve the finances. Cancel the credit cards in both your names. Open a checking in your name only.

Then make your departure when the youngest graduates. Try to think ahead, to what your life will be like when you don't have to be married. And stay upbeat about that pending freedom.

I'm at a loss for what else you can do.

Soolee:

That is exactly what I am doing. I have remained civil and respectful to Mrs. Hold. I tell her how great she looks and how proud she should be of her consistent effort and improved fitness. I compliment her on her attention to detail on D12's party. I tell her she is a supportive friend.

I do my best at the Dad part. Yesterday D12 had a meltdown about her party. She went into her room. I followed her. She said "Stay away. You are going to say something smart and funny and then I won't be so mad." And then she giggled.

On Monday I am camping out at Gamestop with S14 so that he can get the new Call of Duty game when it goes on sale at 12:01 am. And I promised to open my own account at Xbox Live so my feeble efforts will not affect his score / rankings / reputation / etc. We talk fairly openly so I think things are going well there also.

I am also trying to get a life. I go to services more often. Attend all the temple board meetings. I went to a meeting Monday night to help plan a costume ball in February. Last Wednesday I had lunch with an old college friend and dinner with an old high school friend. So I am trying not to withdraw into my shell and stay isolated from the rest of the world, even if I am quite isolated from Mrs. Hold.

As for finances, our credit card balances after the party will be as high as they have been in 8 years. But mostly a joint decision reflecting the parties for S14 and D12. Since there are no raises available at my level and I am unlikely to ever qualify for a bonus based on my hours worked, I have asked for a % of the business I bring in. That will be small compared to my salary, but it will help pay off the credit cards faster. We should have them paid off by the time S14 gets to college.

So we can hope to make a "clean break" when D12 leaves home. As clean as can be when there is not enough money for either of us to keep the house. She can take her 401(k). I'll take mine. Worth about the same. Sell the house and split whatever equity, if any, there is. She will get whatever alimony the judge decides she deserves.

And then we move on. I do not look forward to that "freedom". All I ever wanted was to be in love with the mother of my children. But everyone has disappointments in life. If this should be the worst thing that happens to me, I am fortunate. Plenty of people survive divorce.

Hold: NED once suggested I work on Plan A-ing the kids since obviously Plan A-ing the spouse wasn't where I wanted to go.

I did that for a while and it really made me feel good. It made the kids feel good. I need to get back to that. Soolee's other advice is great too. I doubt I'll last another (for me) 8 years but applying the advice today, will at least leave me feeling like I'm moving in a forward motion and not in limbo.

Boy, do I hear you on that one. Between the alcoholism and depression with my husband, I know he is too sick to ever be the guy I want to spend the rest of my life with. And that is not how I envisioned my life turning out.

I have to bring up NED again because she recommended a book to me--it's on the Alanon list of 'conference approved literature'. I just ordered it, in fact. And I can't remember the name of it! ARGH! But it's supposed to be about how to deal with the feelings that fall out of life not turning out as you'd hoped. Hopefully she'll come along soon and supply the title.

I know I sound down sometimes, but I am eeyore. I always sound down. I gave up on our marriage in 2005 when we stopped coaching with cerri. I have made 4.5 years since then and I can make 5.5 more. T-minus, what, 2066? With 6328 down? Wow, so I guess I passed the 3/4 mark. Piece of cake.

And who knows, maybe Mrs. Hold will surprise me. Maybe I will even surprise myself?

Call me Pollyanna today, but life could always be worse, right?

In a predicament where I wanted out but couldn't for several years, I would use that time as wisely as I could in all sorts of directions in my life -

Time with the kids, college education possibly, bettering the finances, losing weight, etc. It might help you to figure out the different areas of YOUR life and ask yourself if you're working on all of them, you know...being proactive in all directions.

Perhaps it is time to stop hoping for the marriage to turn around and maybe then your mood will shift in a more realistic direction. You can then start thinking ahead. What do people in jail do while they await freedom? They exercise, learn the system, try to learn a marketable skill or get a college education, own their wrong doings, cherish family visits, try to have some fun. You can do that, surely.

Yuppers. Focus on everything else.

Sounds like Hold, OH, and Ima are all in the same ocean, treading water.

I think if this is the path you have truly decided to take then make the next years the best they can be. With no expectations from your wife or your marriage. Have the best time you can have with your kids and your wife. If you have no expectations and then you are going to end it then maybe just maybe you guys can have a great time over the next couple years. Lots of laughter and memories. Just maybe you will be surprised.

Good suggestion, but sorry, no can do. I can't play with my wife and laugh with my wife and create memories with my wife and not want to have sex with her. Hurts too much. So if we are staying together without sex, we will be staying together without laughter and playfulness. The laughing and playfulness will be separate, or not at all.

No, I am not intending to have an affair. Just intending to somberly slog through this with her. And have the good times with kids and guy friends.

I hope so, since that's the area in which I'm struggling right now... (not to t/j- just empathizing).

Daisy, the book came in the mail today!

Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.

I got it on Amazon for $.50--NEW! (and I bought Buyers Renters & Freeloaders there too...NEW for $.25!)

Sounds like an awesome thing to put in a card, and give to her.

Yesterday we took pictures (they won't let us take pictures at the synagogue tomorrow since it is Shabbat). In a few pictures the photographer had Mrs. Hold and I hold hands. She seemed to enjoy that very much. I felt wierd.

Huge extravanganza all weekend. Then no "togetherness" events on the horizon. My pulling away will be far more pronounced once there is no longer the need to discuss plans for the Bat Mitzvah. Planning for this event over the past few months has disguised how far apart we are.

If the hand holding is any indication, I don't think Mrs. Hold is going to enjoy the distance. I don't either. But I dislike it less than engaging with her emotionally but not having sex.

Gee, I still wonder why you assume she enjoyed holding hands with you...and didn't ask.

That would be connecting, respectful and decent. I believe that is what you truly want to be and won't hold yourself to acting from in your marriage. Would NOT open you up to more pain...you're already in it...Marge, you're soaking in it, anyway.

Lemme know when you truly want to stop soaking in it. Stop using your W as justification to stay in pain.

LA

Weekend was great. D12 did a great job at the religious part. All the social events came off without a hitch. The DJ Saturday night was fabulous. During the party Saturday, all the kids yelled "I love you D12". She was queen for a day. So glad we could make that happen for her.

Now back to "real life".