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rprynne #2272673 11/12/09 09:35 AM
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This just sucks bug time rp.

She has to have learned along the way that you will not enforce your boundaries. She must somehow believe she can manipulate you or talk her way out of things, that you just love her too much to be without her.

Unfortunately, the only chance you two have for any sort of future recovery is for you to start enforcing your boundaries and for you to protect yourself from her cruel behaviour.

A dark plan B so that she starts to really believe that she is going to lose you may allow her to see the light.

I really feel for you.





Me - BW
FWH - BB -(PA Jul 08 - Aug 08)
D-Day - 8 Aug 2008
Recovering nicely


rprynne #2272713 11/12/09 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rprynne
I told myself (and her) if she broke no contact again, that was it. I tell her to get out, then she looks at me, all sad and teary, says she's sorry, it was a mistake, she wants to try again and before I know it, I feel like the bad guy. I don't have this problem anywhere (or with anyone) else in my life.

You need a PLAN.
"I made a mistake" Your response ... "You make an informed choice."
"I'm sorry" Your response ... "I'm heartbroken, again."
WW is teary and sad ... Your response ... "You've viciously and intentionally wounded me, knowing how much this would hurt me."

Tell WW you are DONE listening to her excuses and that you are DONE comforting her tears.

ASK her to move out.
If she fails to do that, contact an attorney.
Move to another part of the house.
Separate yourself financially.
EXPOSE to every family member and important friends.

"It breaks my heart to tell you, WW has betrayed me again with OM. I am making efforts to separate from her. I ask for your support."
THAT, my friend, is boundary enforcement.

rprynne #2272851 11/12/09 01:11 PM
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rprynne, I'm so sorry that you are going through this.

I read your wife's posts when she came here earlier this year. Unfortunately, those posts have disappeared in the meltdown. I did not say then how disappointed I felt to see how she wrote about her affair, your marriage, and you. I thought it would do nothing useful to point out how less than half-hearted she sounded, but I am going to say it now.

She did not sound as if she came here really seeking advice. She was very reluctant to describe her affair accurately, and never asked how to help her marriage, and you, to recover. If I remember correctly, she described her H (she never pointed out that he was you) as never being happy with the efforts she was making. She suggested that her H's unreasonable demands were pushing her away. She barely mentioned that there had been a false recovery, and when someone finally picked up on this, she never supplied a full picture.

MelodyLane immediately identified a problem with a lack of POJA - the same issue you were discussing in a separate thread, where you had raised the matter of her visits to her sister. Your wife did not seem to like or believe in this principal and argued with Mel. She then drifted away.

I don't know why she moved with you and appeared to go back into the marriage when she could have just walked away.

Am I right in thinking that you lost a daughter? Could your attempt to be compassionate about your wife's loss explain why this happens?

Originally Posted by rprynne
I don't know what my mental block on this is. I'm gonna have to get therapy or something. I told myself (and her) if she broke no contact again, that was it. I tell her to get out, then she looks at me, all sad and teary, says she's sorry, it was a mistake, she wants to try again and before I know it, I feel like the bad guy. I don't have this problem anywhere (or with anyone) else in my life.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
SugarCane #2272860 11/12/09 01:29 PM
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Rprynne...I am so sorry for your heart and your marriage.

What if you are the bad guy for not keeping your promises, which is enforcing your boundaries? She knew when she quit her job and moved back in, acted transparent, got into counseling, that this was her last chance of saving her marriage.

So she knew, as well, that contacting OM all along the way was continuing the affair. She knew, as Pep so aptly dialogued...please respect that she knew. She chose. Again.

She scams herself, hence, she scams you. You're a bad guy for enabling and encouraging her to break her promises because you continue to break yours. You said "that would be it, if she did it again" and she has, and now, keep your promise.

Listen to these posters...you fear being a bad-guy in your very parentalesque marriage. Stop. You know better. Now do better. Partner her...she knew exactly how horrible you would feel, freshly betrayed again, and again, and again...how every lie tore at the fabric of intimacy, triggered and wounded The Marriage as well as yourself.

She knew.

She knows. Fog tells her it's not real...trust she KNOWS it's real. Self-deception tries to cover truth...distort and change it...still, we know the truth of our actions. Up to you to know this.

And enforcing your boundaries is an act of love, not punishment or fear...do not treat them as such. Your own fog is at play here, making day into night, and night into day. It's not, 'k? Don't buy into her stuff. She's not a child--she's your equal.

She may want to try again...but to try is to lie. The moment she stopped doing transparency, she lied.

I believe you feel like a bad guy not from her teary and temporary remorse...I believe it's coming from how badly you've failed yourself, holding yourself to your boundaries and her to the marital ones. Change that now. Respect her choices, acknowledge and validate that she made them...and respect she knew it would end the marriage.

Whether you do Plan B or Plan D or Plan FU...choose your plan and do not base it on what promises she made or makes now...base that choice on what YOU promised, 'k?

LA

rprynne #2272871 11/12/09 01:40 PM
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It's time for you to get tough and let your W know that your M is over if there is any more contact. She is abusing you. Having an A is abuse plain and simple. Maybe if you showed her that you can live without her she will get her cheating butt in order. You have to stand up for yourself.

OurHouse #2272881 11/12/09 01:52 PM
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How do you check it? Ca't calls/emails be deleted from a BB just like from a regular phone?


Me46
FWH42
Married 19 yrs
EA 4/07 - 4/08
(Confirmed by polygraph that it had not gone PA)
Dday1 4/13/08
Dday2 8/8/08
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let your W know that your M is over if there is any more contact


He's already let her know this countless times. It doesn't seem to matter to her. She probably thinks by now, what's he gonna do, divorce me?

Rprynne, she is playing you over and over again. Please, don't tolerate this anymore. You deserve a loving, FAITHFUL and trustworthy wife.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
rprynne #2272964 11/12/09 02:54 PM
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rprynne,

You asked
Quote
What I hope someone could help out with "logic wise" on this is, if it is as bad as it seems (i.e. been keeping it going with OM all along) why the heck did she come home. A year ago, I finally figure that I'm being scammed, I go to a lawyer, I get the divorce stuff going and tell her I want a divorce. Then she quits her job, comes home, starts counseling, opens her accounts to me, shares passwords, we sell our house, move to a new place, etc., etc., all the right moves.

What could she possibly gain by doing all that if her intentions are to keep the A going? My state is a no fault divorce state, so the A would not matter in court. We have no kids to argue custody over. If she wanted out, why not accept the divorce, (or not move in with me when we moved.) And it's not cake eating, because there are no emotional needs of hers that I'm meeting that OM wasn't meeting as well.

Sorry if this post is a bit rambling.


I will start my answer with a thought problem I saw in an article on intelligence quotients and real intelligence yesterday. I am not questioning your intelligence but I think it illustrates a point I want to make.

Mike calls Ann. Ann calls George. Mike is married. George is single. Was there a call between someone married and someone single? The article points out that most people immediately respond, there is not enough information. When informed there is they figure it out.

Answer to the riddle. If Ann were single then the answer is yes. If Ann were married then the answer is yes. Therefore, one has enough information and the answer is YES.

Now why did I mention this to you? Read what you have asked. You asked the wrong question as if you did not have enough information. If she did not do these things she would have lost something. By doing these things she has lost nothing. She still has you for support and whatever needs you meet, and she still has OM for fun/sex and whatever needs he meets.

Her reason for acting as she did was not because she was going to gain something, it was to prevent her losing something.

I hope this helps you. Oh! and before you ask this is about her, not about you.

God Bless,

JL

SugarCane #2273094 11/12/09 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Am I right in thinking that you lost a daughter? Could your attempt to be compassionate about your wife's loss explain why this happens?

Your post is very insightful and I appreciate it. I did not know if anyone realized it has my WW posting that thread or not. I did not read it, as I agreed with her that I would not read it, so I can't speak to her tone or thoughts.

My WW is not the menace that she comes across as. Yes, we lost a daughter. In fact, leading up to her A, we lost a daughter, my wife started drinking heavily and she was sexually assaulted by her employer. And we because we never talked about any of that in any meaningful way, we fought. By the time her A started all she wanted to do was sit in a bar, drink and smoke cigarettes, and not have to face any of her problems. This is exactly what OM does.

I don't know. I'll have to think some more on it.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
rprynne #2273158 11/12/09 06:10 PM
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I tell her to get out, then she looks at me, all sad and teary, says she's sorry, it was a mistake, she wants to try again and before I know it, I feel like the bad guy. I don't have this problem anywhere (or with anyone) else in my life.
When you find that therapist, tell him about your fear of abandonment, as seen in the words above.

rprynne #2273175 11/12/09 06:35 PM
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rprynne,


I am so very sorry to read this news from you today. I am also a member of the "four years of false recoveries" club and it is not a good club to be in.

Can I ask what you thought your W's character to be in the early days? What are her wonderful traits? Was there ever a person there who wanted to do right just because it was right? If so, can you identify when things changed?

I feel your hesitation at what are perfectly reasonable suggestions about boundary enforcement. I have been in your shoes very many times. Like you, I could not bring myself to deny him his repeated requests to try again after yet another failure.

Today, I am glad I hung in there. I see the character coming back. I am having happy days.

No one will blame you if you decide to be done. But you alone have to be at peace with that choice.

I do think that staying needs to be costly for her. By that I mean that she has to start to face herself and her problems in a real way. Therapy, some serious work at healing the damage she has done, a decision to turn away from her selfish indulgence.

This is such a hard road to walk. The damage done is so great. I am in a vastly better place than I was not too long ago. I hope you can be soon, too.


Chrysalis
rprynne #2273176 11/12/09 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rprynne
I did not know if anyone realized it has my WW posting that thread or not. I did not read it, as I agreed with her that I would not read it, so I can't speak to her tone or thoughts.
I only knew it was her because you mentioned on a thread that she was then posting here. You were asked her name and you said you would rather not give it was you wanted her to get unbiased advice.

I only read your comment several weeks after you wrote it. I must have been going through some old posts for some reason; probably when I was caught up in my "assumptions" thread, on which you posted.

Your post intrigued me. I went through all the new arrivals on SaA over a relevant period, identified the (F)WWs and found her quickly.

She could only have been that poster, but a reader would have thought that this was a different marriage from yours. There was no sense whatever of her refusal to give up all contact with OM, or of how long this had dragged on for, poisoning her marriage. There was no sense of her husband's pain, only irritation at his incessant complaints. His complaints made her unsure that she wanted to recover the marriage.

It seemed clear to me that no-one posting to her realised that her H had ever posted here, let alone that he was you, and yet she received the identical advice that you were receiving about POJA. If you wanted to unbiased advice in action, well, there you had it. People saw right through her lack of interest in her marriage, and lack of care for her H, even though she was not trying to show that.

What did she tell you about the advice she was getting, or did you not talk about it? What reason did she give for stopping posting? Were you disappointed when she stopped? Did her lack of persistence tell you anything?

Originally Posted by rprynne
My WW is not the menace that she comes across as. Yes, we lost a daughter. In fact, leading up to her A, we lost a daughter, my wife started drinking heavily and she was sexually assaulted by her employer. And we because we never talked about any of that in any meaningful way, we fought. By the time her A started all she wanted to do was sit in a bar, drink and smoke cigarettes, and not have to face any of her problems. This is exactly what OM does.
These must have been terrible for both of you to go through, and I am sorry.

If it wouldn't hurt too much, would you mind refreshing us about the timeline of these things? I'm unclear also about how long the affair has been on/off/on.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
SugarCane #2273357 11/13/09 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Sugarcane
What did she tell you about the advice she was getting, or did you not talk about it?

She felt the advice was good, but not entirely practical.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
What reason did she give for stopping posting? Were you disappointed when she stopped? Did her lack of persistence tell you anything?

She stopped because the only one posting to her was Mel, and she felt she already understood her POV. At first, I was not disappointed because she said she was going to start up again.

Originally Posted by SugarCane
If it wouldn't hurt too much, would you mind refreshing us about the timeline of these things? I'm unclear also about how long the affair has been on/off/on.

Sure. We lost the baby in 2002. After we lost the baby, my wife and I grieved and healed and then talked about trying again, and she said she was all for it. But while saying she was all for it, she started working later and later and more increasingly came home drunk. (It started as had a glass of wine at the office after work, then entertaining clients, etc.). We fought more and more and basically the fights were some mixture of "you are never home and how can we have kids if we never see each other". I do not know all the details but sometime in 2003 was when she was assualted. (I was not told of this until around 2006 and my wife would not seek therapy about it or talk to me about it. The man that did it was already dead). For the balance of 2003 and into 2004 she came home less and less, drank more and more, and at one point got a DUI. At first the DUI made her quit drinking, but then later, it just made her quit driving, so I started getting a ton of "I had a couple of drinks with clients, and I just don't want risk driving home, so I'm going to stay with a friend. (The friend was single and I think really encouraged my wife to start hanging out with her in bars). While this was going on she was being treated poorly at work by her boss, and eventually her employer accused her of wrong doing in which my wife gave them her entire retirement to settle a case. Sometime in mid 2004 is when she started seeing OM. She knew him through work, but he did not work with her.

In late 2004, she said she wanted to quit her job. I thought it was the best thing for her and agreed. So she quit. However, the A was still going on, so even though I thought she would finally be home more often, she was gone even more. Always some excuse, visiting friends, a job interview here or there, etc. So we fought about that.

In early 2005, she finally came to me and told me she did not want to have kids. I did not handle this well, because frankly, that is what I had been saying all along and she kept denying it. A few days after that, I got ILYBNILWY talk. A few weeks after that, she got a job offer in a town very far from us. However, the company said they wanted to open an office in our location. And she just needed to go there for training for 3 months. I agreed and she went. 3 months, after she left, was d-day in early July 2005.

At first she said the A was already over. I dug and researched and found out that was not true. She was actually living with OM. I exposed to her family and my family. She did not have any friends to expose to. Her family basically said "your a fine son-in-law but we just want her to be happy. Her family knows she had the affair, but really won't talk to her about it.

After exposure she sent a NC letter, but I believe she intercepted it. After all, she had access to his mail. I busted her on the phone with him, so she sent an e-mail NC letter. Which upset OM and he told her off. She immediately got back in touch with him to explain she was just doing that to appease me. I think this is the first time OM even knew she was married. In late 2005, she sent a third NC letter and we started working with Steve Harley. I believe she actually maintained NC for probably 3 or 4 months. She had since confessed that the job was never going to be located where we live, and she was quitting her job as soon as she got her year end bonus. During the first half of 2006, she kept coming up with excuses why she couldn't quit the job yet, but would come home on weekends, and was doing things to prove she wasn't in contact with OM. After a few months, I was up late one night, her cell phone rang and and someone left a voicemail. I woke her up and had her play it for me. It was OM. Her story was that he had called her for some bland reason and they had just started talking again. We quit MC with the Harley's, I took a leave of absence from work and figured it was time to move on.

I separated all our finances, and moved out and told her do whatever she wants. She said she wanted to work it out and I said well clearly you don't want to follow the MB plan, so you pick a plan and I'll give it a try. This was in Apr of 2007. For the next year or so, she worked in the other town, but would stay with me on weekends at least and sometimes for longer stretches. She set up MC with another counselor and we started going. The MC was pretty good. Although he said one thing that I thought helped and one thing that I thought hurt us. He did tell my WW that NC was essential. (Even non MB MC's know that). But he also kept pointing out that there are successful long distance marriages. My WW latched on to this and basically for that year kept trying to have a long distance marriage. I told her repeatedly that I did not believe that would work for me, but perhaps if we address other issues, things might get better and we could see where we go. Anyway, we didn't really address the other issues.

In late 2007, I told her this isn't working, and I wanted a divorce. She said she did not want that and quit her job. In Jan of 2008, she quit her job and moved back in with me in my apartment. We did some MC during this time, but not really much breakthrough. In about April 2008, our MC retired. Shortly after that we decided to move back into our house and my WW told me that she wanted to come clean about things. She should me her cell phone records, which showed she had once again resumed contact with OM, but it had appeared to end in Feb of 2008. I wasn't real happy about it, but she was home and she did volunteer the information, so I thought maybe we were turining a corner.

Since that time, she had agreed to answer all my questions, which she did, (I believe truthfully this time), had been completely transparent, suggested we re-do the EN questionaire and, closed her checking account, just a bunch of stuff. I was still a little leary and we were trying to sell our house. I had remain relatively reserved and guarded during all of this and to be blunt, kind of expected that the minute we sold the house, she was going to drop a bomb on me.

But we sold the house and she moved into the new place with me, and things seem fine. She made the occassional trip to see her sister, but frankly, I trust her sister. I don't think she would support her A. Then about 3 months ago. The company she use to work for had a job where she is an expert. They asked her if she would do some consulting on it. We POJA'd that, and I agreed to let her do the consulting work. At first, that seemed to work well. But then, she started "violate" terms of the POJA. Little things at first, but then bigger things. I can't say we fought about it, but I was pretty clear I wasn't thrilled.

This is when she started posting here. I did not read her posts, but I guarentee the theme was "what if there is something I want to do that makes my husband unhappy. If I agree to not make my husband unhappy, aren't I losing my indentity. And if I lose my indentity won't I be miserable, because I don't buy that a loving committed relationship really makes one happy and furthermore, nothing I do is enough to make my H happy."

Shortly after that, is when the weird behavior started again. Things like being real careful where she leaves her bags. "Double trips" as I call them. Things like she says she's going to the store, and I say I want to go with you. And somehow magically we forgot to get something, so she has to run back out again without me. Anyway, I knew something was up again. And when she went to take the garbage out (and it took about 15 minutes) I went downstairs and caught on a cell phone I knew nothing about.

Anyway, that's the timeline.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
rprynne #2273379 11/13/09 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rprynne
This is when she started posting here. I did not read her posts, but I guarentee the theme was "what if there is something I want to do that makes my husband unhappy. If I agree to not make my husband unhappy, aren't I losing my indentity. And if I lose my indentity won't I be miserable, because I don't buy that a loving committed relationship really makes one happy and furthermore, nothing I do is enough to make my H happy."
Bingo. That is exactly what she said. I thought the reason she stopped posting was because Mel was insistent that she should want both herself and her H to be happy, and she was prepared to do things only for herself. She did not see what was wrong with that and felt people were not trying to see her POV. They were trotting out MB-speak that they follow like sheep around here and she had no time for that simplistic thinking.

Thank you for the time line. It is complex. I will read it again.

I read right through the "run of the mill WW" thread today and I saw a lot more from you that explained what you should be doing now. Are you able to follow your own logic and take action based on it?

I can see that I misunderstood your position a bit until I read through the thread again. I now understand what you meant by the mixture of disposition and situation producing everyone and anyone's behaviour.

Do you still have hope that you can make your wife's situation in the affair so uncomfortable that she will want to end it, or do you think that she will forever try to have both the affair and her marriage?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
SugarCane #2273410 11/13/09 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Do you still have hope that you can make your wife's situation in the affair so uncomfortable that she will want to end it, or do you think that she will forever try to have both the affair and her marriage?

I don't know. I will get 2x4's for this, but many times I feel the A, the contact, is just a symptom of the real issue. As soon as something comes up that she thinks I will be unhappy about, she throws the switch and goes into this manipulative mode. Which is a stressor. And it builds and builds, until she does something really bad.

I can not seem to get her to believe that if she would just bring it up, let us work through it, that she will end up on the better side of things. She may not get everything she wants, everytime, but still.

I don't know why I think of this, but when we were dating, she got really drunk. It was in college, it was stupid, one of those things you do. She was drinking shots, and sitting down, and when she got up, it all hit her it once. She couldn't even walk. So I carried her all the way across campus and I took her home and I was angry. Really angry. She got sick and and I had to put her in the shower and still couldn't stand up. And I was screaming at her to just stand up. And she was trying so hard, but... she couldn't.

She doesn't remember any of it. But I do. I've always hated myself for that. She was trying, but she was just too drunk. And I was there yelling at her.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
rprynne #2273420 11/13/09 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rprynne
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Do you still have hope that you can make your wife's situation in the affair so uncomfortable that she will want to end it, or do you think that she will forever try to have both the affair and her marriage?

I don't know. I will get 2x4's for this, but many times I feel the A, the contact, is just a symptom of the real issue. As soon as something comes up that she thinks I will be unhappy about, she throws the switch and goes into this manipulative mode. Which is a stressor. And it builds and builds, until she does something really bad.
I know enough about your insight to know that you are not talking nonsense or crying out for a 2x4. However, I don't get what you have just said in relation to the affair.

What is the "real issue"?

What is the thing, just recently, that she thinks you will be unhappy about?

How is the affair supposed to work as manipulation?

Does she get what she wants when she does something "really bad"?

How does her moving back in with you fit into this?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
rprynne #2273442 11/13/09 11:24 AM
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Reading your timeline is very sad.
She's put you through a lot.

She's entitled (in her mind) to independent behaviors that make her "happy" irregardless of how it effects you.(see family of origin point of view)
I don't think this will change.

She's not going to POJA in earnest without a huge shift in her value system. Even if she now professes to be willing to POJA (now that she's caught again) I doubt she will ever willingly and lovingly eliminate making independent decisions. There is no reason/evidence you should believe she is earnest and sincere.

In her mind, I believe, she does not want to lose you because on many fronts YOU make her happy. In other words, she feels entitled to "keep" you but not required to stop her independent behaviors.

Cake anyone?

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I've been reading through this thread, and I keep seeing a common theme of alcohol and drinking popping up again and again. Is your wife an alcoholic?


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
SugarCane #2273597 11/13/09 01:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,320
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rprynne Offline OP
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
What is the "real issue"?

What is the thing, just recently, that she thinks you will be unhappy about?

How is the affair supposed to work as manipulation?

Does she get what she wants when she does something "really bad"?

How does her moving back in with you fit into this?

The real issue is that my WW can not grasp a middle ground between giver and taker. She is either/or on those fronts. When she attempts reconciliation she goes into a complete sacrifice mode. This is suffocating for her, so eventually her taker comes out. But she is a conflict avoider. So rather than say, I want to do this or that, she schemes a way to do it that involves lies and deceit. (That's the manipulation I'm talking about) And then it just spirals from there. And to be clear, I'm not talking about her taker coming out meaning she want to see OM, I'm talking minor stuff.

She moves back in because she really wants to do the right thing. But then she goes about it in a manner that makes her miserable. Then rather than conclude she's going about it wrong, she concludes it can not be done. So she goes back to what she was doing before.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
rprynne #2273604 11/13/09 01:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,245
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Quote
The real issue is that my WW can not grasp a middle ground between giver and taker. She is either/or on those fronts. When she attempts reconciliation she goes into a complete sacrifice mode. This is suffocating for her, so eventually her taker comes out. But she is a conflict avoider. So rather than say, I want to do this or that, she schemes a way to do it that involves lies and deceit. (That's the manipulation I'm talking about) And then it just spirals from there. And to be clear, I'm not talking about her taker coming out meaning she want to see OM, I'm talking minor stuff.

She moves back in because she really wants to do the right thing. But then she goes about it in a manner that makes her miserable. Then rather than conclude she's going about it wrong, she concludes it can not be done. So she goes back to what she was doing before.
You should copy this and send it to her. And her parents.

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