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writer1 #2273605 11/13/09 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by writer1
I've been reading through this thread, and I keep seeing a common theme of alcohol and drinking popping up again and again. Is your wife an alcoholic?

This is a very touchy subject with her. When she is not drinking, she admits to having periods of time when she is drinking too much. When she is drinking, she is convinced that I think she is an alcoholic. I am not an expert on alcoholism, so I do not know the true definition. But, I personally do not think she is an alcoholic. But, I think she at times she is worried that she might be.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
rprynne #2273628 11/13/09 02:08 PM
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Rprynne:

I'm sorry that your W is still at it with OM. I think her empathy bone is broken.





What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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rprynne,

I have no words for you only a cyber hug hug .

I hope you can decide what is best for YOU.

SC

rprynne #2273671 11/13/09 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rprynne
I don't know why I think of this, but when we were dating, she got really drunk. It was in college, it was stupid, one of those things you do. She was drinking shots, and sitting down, and when she got up, it all hit her it once. She couldn't even walk. So I carried her all the way across campus and I took her home and I was angry. Really angry. She got sick and and I had to put her in the shower and still couldn't stand up. And I was screaming at her to just stand up. And she was trying so hard, but... she couldn't.

I believe our subconscious gives us the answers to our questions when we are ready for them. So things that "pop" into our heads--maybe they come from that place.

You had a lot of choices as to how to react when you saw how drunk she was. You could have abandoned her where she got drunk. You could have laughed at her trying to stand up in the shower, while you cleaned her up. You could have calmly cleaned her up and not thought twice about it, chalked it up to human frailty. So why were you angry? Why were you trying to make her do something she could not physically do? Why do you think you had that reaction?

Your wife reminds me a lot of my mother in that she cannot face things head on--to an extraordinary degree. In my mother's case it meant that she would not do anything until she was forced to by expediency. It was as if she could not make decisions in the long range, so she ignored problems until someone was threatening divorce or legal action or whatever and then she would actually make a pretty good decision. She was not a stupid person and could easily have made these decisions in advance, but did not. It's hard to explain. She understood cause and effect, but could never seem to see what was coming down the tracks as a result of her actions--ever. She could live on her paycheck, but never put money in the bank against the inevitable rainy day.

Does your anger at your wife not being able to face her problems make her avoid you even more? Are you yet another problem that she cannot face head-on?





rprynne #2273684 11/13/09 03:07 PM
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rprynne,

I think your W is a functioning alcoholic. I also think your analysis of the situation is correct. She wants you but does not know how to compromise...with herself.

I wonder if IC will help her. I do think you should offer her that paragraph you wrote about her inability to balance giver/taker but rather swing from one to the other.

I would really like to offer you some great advice that would solve your problems or lead to a path where such a solution exists, but I really don't know what it would be.

I will say that eventually YOU have to follow your own path and whether or not your W comes with you will be left for her decide based on actions that you find acceptable.

God Bless,

JL

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Quote
Why do you think you had that reaction?

I reacted that why because I thought that she wasn't really trying. I thought that she thought it was funny.

Quote
Your wife reminds me a lot of my mother in that she cannot face things head on--to an extraordinary degree. In my mother's case it meant that she would not do anything until she was forced to by expediency. It was as if she could not make decisions in the long range, so she ignored problems until someone was threatening divorce or legal action or whatever and then she would actually make a pretty good decision. She was not a stupid person and could easily have made these decisions in advance, but did not. It's hard to explain. She understood cause and effect, but could never seem to see what was coming down the tracks as a result of her actions--ever. She could live on her paycheck, but never put money in the bank against the inevitable rainy day.

My wife has many of these traits.

Quote
Does your anger at your wife not being able to face her problems make her avoid you even more? Are you yet another problem that she cannot face head-on?

Yes and no. In reality, I do not have anger towards my wife. But she percieves that I do. It is less described as anger, but more described as unhappiness.

As an example, the other day, she told me she was thinking about planning a trip for us to Las Vegas for my birthday. My response was I'm not so sure I want to celebrate my birthday. I said this basically in passing, and all I meant was that I'm not so sure I feel like doing anything special, because frankly I'd like to pretend I'm not getting older. Later, in talking with me, she cited this response about my birthday as evidence that I did not think she was giving enough effort on our recovery.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
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The M - recovered
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
She's entitled (in her mind) to independent behaviors that make her "happy" irregardless of how it effects you.(see family of origin point of view)
I don't think this will change.

What do you mean by family of origin point of view?


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
rprynne #2273874 11/13/09 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rprynne
What do you mean by family of origin point of view?

This:

Quote
Her family basically said "your a fine son-in-law but we just want her to be happy.

and this:

Quote
Her family knows she had the affair, but really won't talk to her about it.

Their concern is not about their daughter's "goodness" or righteousness.
Their concern is that she be "happy", no matter if she abandons her vows/morals/marriage/promises.

Being "happy" at the expense of other important things in life is what she grew up with. (apparently, according to you )

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RP,

If your wife is a functioning alcoholic or a non-functioning one, i e falling down in the shower type, if she comes home drunk more often than not or stays away after the DUI because she is to tipsy to drive home, then she is an alcoholic somewhere on that scale.

Now because she is an alcoholic, don't we usually say that the MB principals don't really apply?

Do we have to cure the drinking first?

I'm just grasping here.

kirk


CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
krusht #2273992 11/14/09 12:24 AM
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This is just part of an article on "An alcoholic spouse". There are three letters and Dr. Harley goes into great detail.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html

The newer editions of LB's had a chapter added with alcohol/drug addiction listed as a LB.


Many of you who were raised by a parent who was addicted to alcohol can testify to the nightmare that it brought to your family.

One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.
My job as a marriage counselor begins after successful treatment and sobriety. If the addicted spouse refuses treatment, then I direct the unaddicted spouse to Alanon or some other support group for spouses of alcoholics. Sometimes, I encourage an intervention.

That's what I learned to do after discovering that an alcoholic is so much in love with alcohol, that while in the state of addiction, there is no way for them to consider their spouse's feelings whenever they make decisions, a necessary condition for a great marriage. Alcohol always comes first, even when it is at the spouse's expense.

But even after sobriety is achieved, it's an uphill battle for the couple. The spouses of alcoholics are usually so relieved when treatment is successful that they often think their marital troubles are over. It's true, addiction makes it impossible to resolve marital conflicts. But sobriety itself doesn't solve them -- it simply makes them solvable. Once addiction is overcome, a couple is faced with the legions of other Love Busters that were ignored in the shadow of addiction or were created by addiction.

Some people wonder if they are really alcoholics. They may not go to bars, and they may not even get drunk very often. What is an alcoholic? My definition of an alcoholic is someone who cannot follow the Policy of Joint Agreement because of their craving for alcohol. If your drinking in any form bothers your spouse, and you cannot or will not give it up for his or her sake, I consider you an alcoholic because alcohol is more important to you than the feelings of your spouse.
This week, I am posting three letters from victims of addiction. Each one provides a different perspective on this marital problem that is very difficult to solve.


Go to site search and type in alcoholic spouse to view the whole article.


From experience I know this first hand.......

MB principles will not work unless you are both present to work them. If she is alcoholic the alcohol will be her first love.
Nesre

Last edited by nesre; 11/14/09 11:06 AM. Reason: Gave wrong name to link/added comment on LB's book

M 29 yrs
DS 28 DD 18
Me 53 FWH FBS
MTA signed 5/11/2011
D final 5/16/2011

Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
nesre #2273994 11/14/09 12:52 AM
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It sounds like your wife has an INNER priority list of who is most important to her and in her life. It looks like this:

1. Her alcohol
2, Her other men
3. Herself
4. Her parents/family
5. Her other friends
6. Other aquaintences
7. You, her husband.

Bubbles4U #2273995 11/14/09 12:53 AM
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I cannot figure out why you would continue a marriage with this multiple liar and cheater. Who puts up with this from a spouse?

Bubbles4U #2274007 11/14/09 06:29 AM
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rp, I get the sense from reading here that you are searching for an explanation for her actions that will enable you to stay with your WW without losing your personal integrity.

That you are trying to identify her "major issues" so that you can say to yourself that it is the issues driving your WW's behaviour, and that you can then fix them for her.

Is this issue alcohol, is it grief, is it FOO issues? As a fellow BS, I understand the search for a reason that can explain how the WS could hurt you so incredibly. It's so hard to accept that the person you love is capable of such cruelty so you desperately look for an issue that somehow absolves the WS from the responsibility for their actions. I think all us BS's undertake similar searches. Finding some sort of explanation does make it easier to stay in the relationship and attempt recovery.

However. whatever explanation is found, the BS eventually has to accept that the WS always had choices and the choices they made were selfish, self interested ones with little regard for anyone other than themselves.

For me, understanding the WS mentality through MB has helped me entertain the notion of forgiving my FWS for his A, but if my FWH were to hurt me again via contact with OW or any inappropriate behaviour with any other woman, I would be out of the door, Usain Bolt fast. I KNOW that and as importantly my FWH knows that.

I just simply do not understand how a WS can see the pain a BS goes through and then repeat the offence. It astounds me when that happens. So, whatever your wife's issues are, will they absolve her of the responsibility for repeatedly stabbing you in the back?

If you find a reason to stay, do you think you can fix her? Do you think that protecting her from facing the consequences of her actions will help her? Reading some of your recent posts you do sound a little like a parent rather than a H.

No-one here has any right to tell you what to do. You have to be happy with whatever decisions you make and you clearly still love your W so maybe there is hope that this can be turned around. BUT, your W has some serious work to do and I don't see how she will be motivated to do that work if she doesn't face any consequences for her horrible decisions. She is too self centred to do the real work if she isn't somehow forced to do it by having that mirror brought right up close and personal. All your false recoveries are testament to her selfishness.

Finding excuses for her poor behaviour hasn't worked so far to change her behaviour, so maybe you need to change how you handle the betrayals.

Again, I feel for you and I'm so sorry you are in this awful situation.


Me - BW
FWH - BB -(PA Jul 08 - Aug 08)
D-Day - 8 Aug 2008
Recovering nicely


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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Being "happy" at the expense of other important things in life is what she grew up with. (apparently, according to you )

Ok. I understand what you mean. I think what she grew up with was sacrificing to keep everyone else happy. Her family's reaction is more along of the lines of conflict avoidance. She was one of those families that no matter what's really going on, everyone tries to keep up appearences of the picture perfect family.

Originally Posted by Krusht
Do we have to cure the drinking first?

I truly considered that for a long time early after d-day. I was fully aware of the concept that really nothing can be done towards recovery with an alcoholic. During the early false recoveries, drinking was still very prevalent, so I sort of expected the poor results on recovery. But, she has really changed in the last 2 years or so on that front. Now, she only drinks when we are together (maybe once or twice when she is out with her sister). She still drinks more than me, but has not been "falling down" drunk during that time. The only other thing I can say of note related to that, is when we have R talk, she drinks. The only time she really talks is when she has had a few drinks. Again, since I know so little about alcoholism, I have no idea what that means.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
Finding excuses for her poor behaviour hasn't worked so far to change her behaviour, so maybe you need to change how you handle the betrayals.

Thanks for your post. I guess this is what I'd say. I thought my WW had issues, and if those issues were addressed, we could recover. I ackowledge that the folks who basically say, she is just a bad person may be right. But I figured we could test that out one way or the other and go from there.


Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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Originally Posted by serendipitous
(1) If you find a reason to stay, do you think you can fix her? Do you think that protecting her from facing the consequences of her actions will help her? Reading some of your recent posts you do sound a little like a parent rather than a H.

I think part of the problem is the BS thinking that somehow he/she can make deposits or avoid withdrawals by offering that protection. Not true. It's nothing but ENABLING. Trust me. I know. I have been sucked into that trap. It becomes nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
(2) No-one here has any right to tell you what to do. You have to be happy with whatever decisions you make and you clearly still love your W so maybe there is hope that this can be turned around. BUT, your W has some serious work to do and I don't see how she will be motivated to do that work if she doesn't face any consequences for her horrible decisions. She is too self centred to do the real work if she isn't somehow forced to do it by having that mirror brought right up close and personal. All your false recoveries are testament to her selfishness.

A common theme within the wayward is selfishness. Then the fight -- the race -- is to make the betrayed's environment more appealing to the wayward than the environment being created by both the OP and the enabling by the betrayed.

Originally Posted by serendipitous
(3) Finding excuses for her poor behaviour hasn't worked so far to change her behaviour, so maybe you need to change how you handle the betrayals.

For me, I either manufactured those excuses, or bought my WW's bill of goods regarding her innocent relationship with OM. On Thursday night, when she said she wouldn't end her relationship with him and acknowledged that it was starting to escalate, that did it for me. Sure, it was a spousal 2x4 delivered solidly to the back of the cranium, BUT it knocked something loose. FINALLY, I was able to stop making excuses (or buying them from WW), and NOW I can see the situation for what it really is -- HER choices and the consequences that come from them.

We are all different. The only shoes we get to walk in are our own. Maybe I should have done some things differently. Can't we all say that about ourselves and other facets of our lives? You bet. As BS's, we don't recover our M by feeding into this warped sense of support and entitlement. We certainly don't recover OURSELVES. If we continue to listen, if we continue to learn, we will continue to experience personal growth. And THAT is an end product that I am truly interested in buying......

Thanks,
TB





rprynne #2274073 11/14/09 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rprynne
I thought my WW had issues, and if those issues were addressed, we could recover. I ackowledge that the folks who basically say, she is just a bad person may be right. But I figured we could test that out one way or the other and go from there.

I haven't said she is a bad person rp. I cannot make such a judgement as I don't know her. I can judge her actions though and I can say she has made bad and selfish decisions. The question is what can be done so that she doesn't make the same bad selfish decisions again. I asked you how your WW was handling things and you said "the same".

To me, if you both do the same now as you did after the other D-Days, then in time you will likely see the same results, ie, broken no contact.

If doing the same thing over and over isn't working, then surely you need to try something different. I don't know what type of different you should do,(plan B, plan D, whatever) but I do think you should change the way you handle this in some way.

She obviously NEEDS things that you provide because she doesn't want to lose you, but then again she isn't willing or able to give up what she gets from the OM to fully commit to you. The OM might just be an escape from reality. I don't know what it is she gets from him, but she has to work it out. Then she has to share with you that broken part of her that she is not yet willing to face up to. I worry about why she hasn't had the motivation to be introspective enough to examine her own behaviour after the previous false recoveries.

Surely, she has seen you in pain. Why has that not motivated her to change?


Me - BW
FWH - BB -(PA Jul 08 - Aug 08)
D-Day - 8 Aug 2008
Recovering nicely


rprynne #2274074 11/14/09 11:46 AM
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The only time she really talks is when she has had a few drinks. Again, since I know so little about alcoholism, I have no idea what that means.

R, you need to research ALCOHOLICISM. You NEED to learn all about it. It is easy to learn about it like you would learn about anything else in life. There is no excuse NOT to learn about it. Perhaps you do not want to learn about alcolicism because you do not WANT TO KNOW if your wife is alcoholic!

If you learn about it, you will HAVE to face the facts and the truth. Are you ready to face the truth that your wife is totally selfish and an alcoholic?


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Bubbles4U #2274079 11/14/09 11:52 AM
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Spend about 8 hours researching alcoholics and thier traits. You may also want to call up AA and go to a few meetings both AA and ALANON. These are worth going to to learn more. You are not alone but if you continue to ignore that there COULD be an alcohol addiction here with your wife, you are ignoring the truth and the facts.

You have to face hard truths in life. You cannot ignore the truth.

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