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Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
tst if I am not mistaken doesn't SH recommend other things first...namely, the "cleaning out of the wound"?

He told us that doing the ENQ and LBQ were going to do no good until the wound was cleaned out.

We started with a blow-by-blow of the A, and I was able to ask any and all questions I wanted/needed. FWH could not hold back on ANYTHING that I asked. I could take however much time I needed to in order to do this. It was our very first step.


Yes MF

But I believe they have spent 4 months on the subject. It appears BaT has answered the questions, he has just been lacking any empathy along the way, which re-triggers everything.

I'm afraid for this couple that if he doesn't learn the CARE portion of the MB Program quickly, his BW is going to have a nerveous break down........ EXTRAORDINARY CARE will help clean the wounds as well!





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Originally Posted By: By_a_thread
Gack - Not being much different than other men means that we like to fix things that are broken.
This is not a 69 Charger with a bad starter, you cant replace the starter and think that "Fixes it"

You cant Fix this, you can fix yourself, and that will help start true recovery.


Originally Posted By: By_a_thread
And, yes I do get what I have done...as I have put out there numerous times today...
No you don't

I want to ask you a question, Man to Man, Betrayed Spouse to Wayward Spouse.

Which would you rather have happen.

1. Be locked up for 1 year with a group of Violante sociopaths who have been trained to torture and kill. Have them constantly beat, torture, and yes, rape you to the point where you pass out from the pain! And everyday face the reality that you could die from your injury's at any moment......

Or

2. Your wife have an affair?

If you answered #2, or even thought about it for a split second....Then you don't get it.

It's that bad!

Nothing I have ever experienced comes close to the pain my wife's A caused.


Me 34
WW 30
Abandoned Feb 17th 08, D-Day Aprl 27th 08.
Returned home Jul 7th, OC born 12/30/08
The FOG is clear, and we are in recovery.
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""I feel like I can back off now."" dance2 dance2

So how is that there retirement thang workin' for yah, Pep?? cool


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BAT,

Let me jump in here a moment and then I will leave it to those already posting to you. They are giving you great advice.

People are "poking" at you because they know something you cannot yet see. Saying "I know I was wrong. I know I was the one at fault. I know..." is a start, but as those who have been on this site for years can tell you, implied in those statements is a "but..." Perhaps the "but" is she shouldn't be doing this to me or she should know that I want this marriage or the affair is over, whatever it is your are telling yourself is implicit in how you say things.

People here are picking that up, more importantly your W is picking it up and it is feeding her anger. If you/we can identify the implicit "but" and address it, it will help you and your W attempt to rebuild this marriage.

I know you feel guilty but you need to move from guilt to remorse and that leads to making amends somehow. usually, amends begins with absolute honesty of everything you remember. Don't wait for her to ask you, you tell her or you write it down and give it to her. Do your best of offer any data that will allow her to confirm what you say.

You become proactive in putting this marriage on a basis of open and honest behavior. You can do this and you don't have to wait. I know your instincts are to "duck and cover" but the bomb going off over your head is going to blow away the table you are ducking under. Instead stand up, be honest, and be open. Her anger is her expressing her primary emotions: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration. When you realize that you will start to see her in a different light. She is a very very wounded little girl right now. You need to protect her with your honesty, your heartfelt actions and your patience for her.

I'm done. I return you back to your regular programming.

God Bless,

JL

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Please print this and read it;

It will help you to keep your head on straight when your wife asks you the same questions again and again...... which, By the way, IS normal.
------------------------------------------


Josephs letter

Applicable to WHY disclosing all the truth matters;


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened Josephs letter

Applicable to WHY disclosing the truth matters;


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)
_________________________





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BAT,

My husband is Skald. TST helped save our marriage. Please listen to him and do what he says.

About being a normal guy and wanting to "fix" everything:

Skald tried to do this with me and it pissed me off. It pushed me away. Sometimes, you just need to sit there and take it. Then ask if you can give her a hug or just hold her hand if she won't accept a hug. Say you are sorry for the pain you've caused and express how much you wish you could take it all away. Honestly, I couldn't hear that enough. I needed to hear how sorry he was. I needed to hear that he WANTED to erase that past and that he WISHED it NEVER HAPPENED. I needed to hear that he felt that way too. And no matter how mad and withdrawn I was, a part of me needed to be held.

Your wife feels so very alone right now, and she feels like she can never trust anybody ever again.

Please, don't try to "fix" her. She's not broken. She's stronger than either of you know. She's just scared and doesn't know where to go, because her safe haven with you is gone.


BW-31
FWH-32(skald)
DD-5
In Recovery
"Do not go where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

"To Err is Human. To Arr is Pirate."
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Originally Posted By: By_a_thread
And, yes I do get what I have done...


If you had you would not have written this: "I don't get the impression that she truly wants to fix our M." You have no idea the battle she is struggling with....none.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally Posted By: By_a_thread
.These girls continually keep my W updated on what is going on in OW's life and marriage and any drama that unfolds. I have expressed my concerns with staying involved with these girls, but my W insists, and I feel that I am in no position to keep her from doing anything or talking to anyone she chooses.


"Keeping tabs on the OP" is likely to continue for some time, particularly of the OP is in such "close" proximity. I'm almost 5 years past D-Day and I still find myself spot-checking on the OM, though it happens a LOT less regularly than it did just 6 months after D-Day.

Time will eventually deal with this issue.


ManInMotion
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Originally Posted By: tst
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
tst if I am not mistaken doesn't SH recommend other things first...namely, the "cleaning out of the wound"?

He told us that doing the ENQ and LBQ were going to do no good until the wound was cleaned out.

We started with a blow-by-blow of the A, and I was able to ask any and all questions I wanted/needed. FWH could not hold back on ANYTHING that I asked. I could take however much time I needed to in order to do this. It was our very first step.


Yes MF

But I believe they have spent 4 months on the subject. It appears BaT has answered the questions, he has just been lacking any empathy along the way, which re-triggers everything.

I'm afraid for this couple that if he doesn't learn the CARE portion of the MB Program quickly, his BW is going to have a nerveous break down........ EXTRAORDINARY CARE will help clean the wounds as well!


tst...can you please go read his BW's thread? She has NOT gotten all of the answers...he has not been RH with the details of the A that she NEEDS.

This is a huge stumbling block. I know because it happened to me too...she CANNOT move forward and allow him to meet any of her ENs until this part of recovery has been completed.

I believe they have an appt on Friday with Steve...it might be best until then for BaT and hbh to not talk about the A...let Steve guide them through this part. It's pretty gnarly and needs to be dealt with delicately.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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Bat,

Let me continue the auto repair analogy Gack began above.

You wrapped your prized marriage around a tree. It isn't just body damage but the frame is bent, the body is shot, the motor is broken and even the tires are trashed. If it were a 1997 Honda Accord you'd call a wrecker and have him haul it away and be happy if it only cost you 100 bucks to get it hauled off.

But it isn't a 1997 Honda Accord. It's 1967 427 Cobra AC. It is rare and precious and you wrecked it by being a careless fool who was showing off his manhood to feel good about himself. It is worth much more than the sum of its parts and it doesn't need to be fixed; it needs to be restored. You can't pay for new parts to fix it. There aren't any! You have to take it apart, straighten each and every piece, MAKE new ones when the old cannot be repaired. Paint and parts will NOT fix this.

The thing is, you walked away from the wreck. You have a chance to make this even better than when you wrecked it, but you aren't going to find any shortcuts, magic solutions or find anybody else who can take the problem off your hands and bring it back to you having been made all better. YOU have to rebuild this one piece at a time. MAYBE you'll be allowed to drive again when you are done, but until it is rebuilt, you have only one job and that is to restore what you trashed by acting like an 18 year old after a high school football game.

Your wife needs to be the most precious thing you've ever had. You must be willing to do whatever it takes to help her to get back to being the pristine special and unique thing of beauty she was before you ran her off the road. You can't "fix" this. All you can hope for is a chance to make right what you so casually destroyed. Starting from scratch is easier than restoring what you wrecked. It is up to you to make it right and the first step is to realize just how much damage you have done.

What you wrecked was worth more than you can pay. All you can do now is to work to make it better than it once was.

Mark

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Originally Posted By: tst
[But I believe they have spent 4 months on the subject. It appears BaT has answered the questions, he has just been lacking any empathy along the way, which re-triggers everything.
!


tst, from reading the other side, I would agree with this assessment. And would add that he is still very foggy. He has tried to portray this filthy affair to his BS in a beautiful, romantic light, when really it is about as romantic as 2 pigs going at each other in the pig pen. It doesn't get anymore disgusting and putrid than that. This is the story of 2 pigs in heat and to hear such a story romanticized has got to be adding fuel to the fire.

BAT, can you understand how your affair looks to objective observers who are not high on pig slop? I think your view of your affair is very harmful to the recovery of your marriage and asking her to view it in the same way would be enormously abusive.

Another thing that is fueling her trauma and keeping her furious is being told to "get over it" and put it in the past. That is like telling a rape victim to "get over it." It shows a profound lack of empathy for the rape victim.

I tell you these things, not to be harsh, but from the perspective of an objective observer who has been both wayward and betrayed. As someone who WANTS to see your marriage recover. I hope that your wife takes my advice to vent to us here, but we need you to not fan the flames with loony, unrealistic "romantic" views of a pig affair along with suggestions for her to get over it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: By_a_thread
....These girls continually keep my W updated on what is going on in OW's life and marriage and any drama that unfolds. I have expressed my concerns with staying involved with these girls, but my W insists, and I feel that I am in no position to keep her from doing anything or talking to anyone she chooses.


This probably makes her feel safer to keep tabs on the OW. Right now her need to protect herself from you and the OW outstrips her need to not be triggered. She is a walking trigger anyway, so this just makes her feel safe to keep an eye on that vicious skank.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: MarriedForever

tst...can you please go read his BW's thread? She has NOT gotten all of the answers...


I've been following along MF...... I suggested FILSIL (for HIM) because it is the quickest tutorial of the MB Program.

It will help him with plugging the holes that all the LB's are causing and it will give him a general view of how to provide extraordinary care for his wife.

It will cover UA, RH, & POJA as well...... it's a great book!

I wouldn't expect his W to open her Love Bank account for quite some time regardless of what he does right now, but the sooner he learns how to do all these, the better!

Mel, I'm glad you see what I mean...... without empathy while answering these historical questions, re-triggering will never stop, because his W is looking for more than just an answer.... she is looking for a change in his heart, which cannot happen until the fog clears.

BaT..... FILSIL and finish the weekend seminar ASAP!





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: tst
[But I believe they have spent 4 months on the subject. It appears BaT has answered the questions, he has just been lacking any empathy along the way, which re-triggers everything.
!


tst, from reading the other side, I would agree with this assessment. And would add that he is still very foggy. He has tried to portray this filthy affair to his BS in a beautiful, romantic light, when really it is about as romantic as 2 pigs going at each other in the pig pen. It doesn't get anymore disgusting and putrid than that. This is the story of 2 pigs in heat and to hear such a story romanticized has got to be adding fuel to the fire.

BAT, can you understand how your affair looks to objective observers who are not high on pig slop? I think your view of your affair is very harmful to the recovery of your marriage and asking her to view it in the same way would be enormously abusive.

Another thing that is fueling her trauma and keeping her furious is being told to "get over it" and put it in the past. That is like telling a rape victim to "get over it." It shows a profound lack of empathy for the rape victim.

I tell you these things, not to be harsh, but from the perspective of an objective observer who has been both wayward and betrayed. As someone who WANTS to see your marriage recover. I hope that your wife takes my advice to vent to us here, but we need you to not fan the flames with loony, unrealistic "romantic" views of a pig affair along with suggestions for her to get over it.


You have something agaist pigs, Mel? An affair is nowhere near as honest and natural as a couple of God's creatures procreating.

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Please, tell me you are making that up about dancing with this woman in front of your wife, BAT. That is downright sadistic.
My WW did something similar. She woke me from a sound sleep and described her MM's physique.
Please, man. You did the Nanny, your friend's wife. You did it in your bed with your kids around. And , you danced with your OW in front of your wife.
Man, I am shocked she is willing to try.
WHy did you rub her nose in it like that. That is way overboard in comparison to your run of the mill affair.

Sounds like you were punishing her. You must have been really pissed at her to take it that far.

Last edited by Zelmo; 02/10/10 05:38 PM.
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Quote:
Sounds like you were punishing her. You must have been really pissed at her to take it that far.


No, just selfishly entitled, cruel and egotistical.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

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It may not seem like it, but the fact that your wife IS so angry with you is actually hopeful.

Even if she's yelling and angry, at least she still gives enough of a damn to engage with you.

But when a woman goes silent, she's finished - and so is your marriage.


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
Sounds like you were punishing her. You must have been really pissed at her to take it that far.


No, just selfishly entitled, cruel and egotistical



I'm sensing that there is something punitive going on. There's a lingering smell of resentment and desire to hurt.

TA


"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
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To me, this was just way over the top stuff. And, I bet there is more.

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Originally Posted By: Zelmo
And, I bet there is more.


There's always more to every story!





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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