I don't know where else to turn, I can't get unbiased advise from anyone I know, and the end of my M may be drawing near if we don't do somthing now...

I am the WH, and had a 4 month A that ended when we were found out 9/15/09. I wish it were simply an issue of co-worker or a stranger, but it wasn't. I had an A with our nanny, she was part of our lives and my W entrusted her with everything, and went out of her way to be kind and generous, even buying her a new car. Her H was also one of my best friends...My W and I decided to put our 7 yr M back together and move past this, and this is proving to be very difficult. I changed my cell #, We moved 200 miles away to a new city. We own a business where we lived and still make monthly trips back to check on things, but have begun building a business in our new location as well. I have not had contact with OW since 9/25, and tried to forget everything about her and move forward. I have always had a spotty memory, and I have tried to be "radically honest" with my W, but I genuinly cannot remember details that well, and my W tells me I am lying to her when I can't remember.

We began MB last year but didn't finish (and should have). We recently decided to get back onboard with MB and finish the program, as both of our behavior patterns have been more detrimental than helpful.

I feel at times that my W hates me...she calls me horrible names, she takes things I have opened up to her about (radical honesty) and uses them to hurt me now. She takes things that I have said to her in the past and repeats them back to me out of context to push my buttons and fight. I don't blame her for being angry...I hurt her badly, I humiliated her, embarrassed her, and put someone else before our M, kids, and business. However, I do not want to hurt my W or fight anymore. I have trouble controlling my outbursts, as does she. There is no violence, but I feel she would hit me anytime, and it's getting worse. I don't get the impression that she truly wants to fix our M, and is only allowing me to stay for our kids. I have tried talking with her many times, and a rational conversation quickly decends into name calling and wanting to throw our M away. There is much, much more going on with us, but I am trying to hit the highlights, and get some positive feedback from someone who's been here and made it through.

I realize that was a long post, so I'll get to my questions...

How do I get her to realize that I want our M?
Should we just give up and be the best parents we can?
What's next? What should I expect from her?

Her rage is not only about your A.
You exposed your vulnerable children to a crazy person.

What say you about that?

BaT, I've heard that the anger of a BS occurs at about six months into recovery. That's about where you are right now.

In other words, this is expected, and is something that needs to be worked through.

I'd suggest making an appointment with the Harleys. Today.

How did you do the MB programme before? Were you coached by the Harleys? Could you do this now? How are you "back on board" now? Are you doing the online course?

Did you post here last year? What was your name?

Have you set up an appointment with the Harleys? Can you attend an MB Weekend?

Have you made your list of Extraordinary Precautions and followed them?

Do the EN and LB Questionnaires again.

We are doing the online program, andI have never posted before...Just trying to figure out what is coming, and how to handle it.

'BAT', as 'Fred' said, 6 month period is the anger phase. I am just about at that 6 month period and I was wondering why I've been so angry lately...now I know why.

Doesn't stop me from being pissed off, but at least I know I am not the only one who has felt this way...your wife is expressing normal feelings about what you did to her, your children, family, friends, the nanny's family.....

She already realizes this.
She's not sure if she does want this M.
She is not sure if you are worth that risk.

It's going to be a long time before she is certain she wants YOU.
Probably years.
Do you get that?



If you give up now it will be because you lack empathy for your wife's dilemma.
If you give up now, it will be yet another selfish, weak moment in your personal history.

You brought her to this dance, and now you complain you don't like the music.





A roller coaster ride of conflicting emotions.
Thousands of questions.
Thousands of tears.
Dirty looks.

And, you can expect her to feel sad and angry without obvious provocation.

You deal with it.
You fix yourself.
You find more strength than you ever had before.

And, most importantly, you dig deeper than you ever thought possible and find EMPATHY.

'PB', you always make so thought provoking, relevant posts.

Thanks, it does help to know that this is a normal reaction. I assumed (in my naivety) that we should be doing better at the 6 month mark.... We have been to 2 different MC's and aquired some useful tools, just haven't really been able to put them to positive use yet. I want to make her understand that I am here, and not going anywhere...I make no excuses for my actions...There are certainly reasons, but no excuses. I hope she can work through this with me and keep our family intact.

You might not have meant this, but it sounded from your post as if you are looking for a way out. You are prepared to stay if your wife makes your marriage sensational and woos you back, but if she is going to be angry like this then you don't want to know. It's too much hard work.

It sounds as if you are looking for someone to give you an out from this unreasonable wife. Thus you paint her anger as something extreme, when it is perfectly understandable and merely inconvenient to YOU. You do not begin to explain how you thought it right to destroy your family as you did. How did you THINK your affair would make your wife feel?

You can leave at any time, if you want to continue exercising the selfish and self-interested behaviour that resulted in the affair. You do not need to convince the world that you are married to an impossible SOB.

Have some compassion. Don't stay with her if you do not want to, but do not blame her.

'BAT', thats an interesting comment, 'there were reasons but no excuses'....true.

The WS understanding that the BS did NOTHING that justified having sex outside of their marriage is key to any R.

The title of your thread reveals what's going on with you.


This makes it seem that, sans your W's unreasonable hatred towards you, marriage recovery would happen.

Your W doesn't hate you.

She hates that she cannot trust you.
What does this say about your wife?
It says that openness and honesty are high on her EN list.

Your wife does not hate you.
She hates that she does not recognize the man she married.
THAT man, would never expose his family to such danger.

Your wife does not hate you.
She hates that she has lost respect for you.
A real man never exposes his children and his wife to danger, in order to get laid.

So, if you can stand reading this .... there ARE actionable things regarding her feelings toward you.
It's not her hate that is messing up the recovery.

It's your attitude.

Are you ready to change?

'PB', half of your posts to other members here ring so true for me and freaken make ME wanna cry. Jeez

Believe it or not, my sharp pointy finger is going to help you.

Hang on.
Here's another "look at you" comment.

She understands you say you are not going anywhere.
It is not her lack of understanding which brings such pain and conflict.
She understands what you say you want, she has no reason to believe you.

(yet)

She's not certain if she can stand looking at your face for the next 20 years.

She's not dumb. She understands.

Keep SHOWING her that you are there for the long-haul. Words don't count at this point. Your ACTIONS are the proof.

And THIS is the granddaddy comment.

Look, BaT, I don't expect you to "get it" entirely, not yet.
But, you better become a speed reader of insight and empathy, if you really want this M to recover.

Do you realize what this particular comment says about YOU?

Where's the leadership in your comment?
Where is the MAN-UP strength in your comment?

Come on!
Be the strong one.

YOU can do it!

Man up !

I appreciate all the feedback, and I certainly do not want out, or an excuse to leave her...I made a huge, seemingly unforgivable error in judgement and a life altering mistake! I wouldn't take the time to put my personal life on the internet, write a post, read responses, and seek advise from others that have been through this if I wasn't searching for answers and help...I would simply listen to a divorced friend and leave!

With regard to her anger, I DO NOT blame her, and I do not know if her anger is extreme or reasonable...it has gotten worse, not better. I am just trying to understand, and find out what I can do to help the R process now...I can't undue past transgressions...Obviously, if I had been thinking clearly and acting within the guidelines and principals of a healthy M, I wouldn't have done what I did in the first place. I empathize with her, and I hurt when she does...I get upset and emotional daily when I think of what I have done to our family. I am simply asking what else we can do....

Change....I do not talk to or communicate in any way with her or anyone who knew about the A...I moved, changed my cell# and deleted her from every email and messenger account...I do not go anywhere or do anything w/o my W. We work from home together in the same room, we share every meal together and spend every night beside each other...My computer, emails and cell are always available to her, as I am trying to be transparent in my day to day life.

I am doing everything I know to do to win her back...Once again, that is why I am here asking for advise/help on what to do and how to do it...

"I'm not going anywhere" is a start, but it's not nearly enough to fix the damage.

In fact, it's perilously close to the "I'm here, aren't I?" response that so many Wayward Spouses give to their frantic Betrayed Spouses after D-Day.

Did you think your BW was just frightened that you would leave, and all she wanted was reassurance that you wouldn't?

(That's how your posts are coming across.)

"I'm here, aren't I?" is arrogant and dismissive. Your Betrayed Wife needs far more from you than that. Just being graced by your presence is not nearly enough.

Like Pepperband said, your BW knows you have offered to stay. Your BW is looking for a reason why she should WANT you to stay.

What reasons can you give her?

Okay, fasten your seat belt:

Try real hard to picture your wife spreading her legs for another man.

Then she wants you to forgive her and go on with your lives as normal.

Try real hard to picture how you would really feel about this.

And if you can't picture this because "my wife would never do such a thing" - well, that's what your wife thought about you, too.

We are not trying to hammer you here.

We are trying to get you to have one thing: Empathy.

Just as Pep said above.

Empathy, empathy, empathy.

BaT, I am incredibly envious of you. You have chosen to recover your marriage! There are many of us who wish we could be in your shoes.

There is a way to do this, and it exists on this site, in the books Dr. Harley has written, and in the counseling and weekends the Harleys conduct.

YOU made the decision to stray outside the marriage. It's now up to YOU to do what you can to repair the damage.

I understand your wife's anger perfectly. In my case, I would still be wondering if my WW's actions were a deal-killer. I would put it entirely on her shoulders to show me that she was in earnest about recovering the marriage, and not just going along for the ride until something better came along.

You say you started MB before. Are you familiar with the concepts? About the Four Rules? Have you read What to Do with an Unfaithful Husband? As others have already stated, she will know by your ACTIONS how serious you are.

And you won't convince her over night.

Are you taking anti-depressants?
You might consider taking them, after discussing with your physician.
You sound pretty frazzled.

My darling H and I have more than a decade of M recovery behind us.
When my H was trying to get me to "understand" that he wanted "me" and wanted our marriage, he said this:
"I have new eyes." .... Sounds nice, right? It made me want to scream and choke the life out of him, while saying; "Now, thanks to you and OW, I have new eyes as well ! And with these new eyes, you look like crap!"

I advocate for your marriage.
The forum is, collectively, in favor of your marriage.
Nothing would please the forum more than your marriage becoming a shining success.


Your wife is questioning her decision to stay with you.
Everything she thought was true, is false.
Everything she thought she knew, is now questionable.

Your adultery is not just about the sex you had.
It undermines your wife's entire world.
She doubts gravity.
She questions oxygen.
She doubts herself.
She has to reconstruct reality.

Have empathy for that.
And, MAN UP !

By A Thread ....

WELCOME TO Marriage Builders !!!

Once again, I thank all of you for your responses, guidance and helpul "finger pointing".

I have read many things including: Change, empathize, have compassion, deal with it, fix it and Man-up. While all very good ideas, and constructive in nature and meaning, I am finding no tangible advise. My W's entire world has been turned upside down, and i am responsible for turning it around and showing her that I can be a good H again.

I originally posted looking for help and answers to fix what I broke....I have posted many of the things that I/we have done thus far, and what we are currently doing and working towards.

I would find it beneficial and helpful to recovering my M, and keeping my W if I were given more specific examples, and help...Simply telling someone that they need to change and pointing out the way that they are responsible for the damage is a bit generic and broad, as I am FULLY aware that there is no-one to blame for the state of my family and our lives than me...mister selfish.

So, before I give up on seeking advise, I will try and be more specific...

What other actions can I take?
What sort of things can I do?
How do I "fix" it?
What can I "show" her?

Hold on.
The recovered former wayward men will come around soon.
Their perspective will be both personal and practical.

It's so masculine to ask :
"How can I fix it."

Gotta love that !

Hang on .... You cannot give up so easily.

There is no quick fix.
There is a process.

Put this topic on your watched topic list.
If you click on the "topic options" tab next to your first post, it's one of the choices.

Then, you will get an email as someone replies to your thread.

Thank you...I will check back periodically to see if I can gain some useful and practical applications to everyone's advise.

PB, i know there is no quick fix...but there must be things I have not thought of or done to this point. I am not dense, nor am I uneducated...It kills me to ask strangers for help, and if I thought there was another way, or we were not on the verge of a D, I wouldn't be here. I am not working right now, as I should be, because I cannot think of ANYTHING more important than my W and K's.

I know that a BS hates to hear a WS say that, as I can already hear the masses telling me that I should have put them first last Summer. Again, I cannot change or undue the past, only seek to change my future. It is good to know that others have made it through a PA, and I look forward to ANY practical advise.

The Prodigal Son is my favorite parable, because humanity is lost without the hope of forgiveness.
The parable gives me hope for all of us.

God Bless

BaT, you're lucky. My FWH did get a few bruises from me. Not one of my prouder moments, but you'd have to been in a BS's boots to really understand the pain and rage. And yes, I got physical around the 6 month mark.

One thing you can't beg, borrow or steal - time. And unfortunately that's what you're going to have to have. Time for your BW to heal, time for YOU to heal, time to put back together what you tore apart. It's going to take time.

Read here and keep posting. It might be helpful for your BW to come on board here, as well.

pb can you confirm this??

Ive been seeking this since day one on this site and have posted as such on the technical forum. Ive have already done exactly what you've said but have NEVER recieved a single email???

Sorry for hi-jacking, just shocked to read this.....

Yes.

Got to "my stuff" tab (next to forum list)
Then, go to "edit preferences".

look at the choices

Say "yes" to

"By default should anything added to your Watch List be emailed to you?"

While your at the edit preferences place ....

It is so convenient to change the

topics per page from (default) 10 to 50 or 60.

same thing with the (default) 10 posts per page shown .... I have mine set at 60.

What happened to the car you bought for the OW? That's probably a sore-point with your BW as well. Getting it back and selling it, then using the proceeds towards something for your BW or your family might help.

Is complete and total No Contact (NC) in place with OW and any and all associates of OW? No Contact means no information at all from or about OW. This means if she died tomorrow YOU would and could never know!

Have you written a No Contact letter to OW?

Has all financial support of OW ended (Like a possible Car Payment)?

Have you read Surviving an Affair?

Does your Betrayed Wife (BW) know every detail of your affair?

Have you implemented Extreme Precautions to protect yourself and your wife from your boundary problems with the opposite sex?

Have you scheduled a session with Steve Harley?

Here is your tangible advice.

Figure out her most important needs. You should have them if you started the MB program. Now, meet them, and meet them the way she describes would deposit the most love units.

Now concentrate on the love busters. What are the biggest love busters you commit. You said you have trouble with your temper. You are going to have to focus at this love buster for a while and do not allow things to escalate when she lets her anger out on you. While not productive on her part, it is certainly understandable after what you put her through.

Continue to prove to your BW with ACTIONS that you are going to man-up and do the work necessary to recover your actions. If you keep meeting her ENs and avoid LBs, after a certain period of time, you will get past this phase. Dr. Harley himself says most affairs take AT LEAST two years to recover from. You aren't even 6 months into the process. Have patience, and focus on the MB program. Hopefully, you do not let things escalate if your wife shows anger towards you. Eventually, you will get past this stage.

On a side note, your BW is saying those things to push your buttons and hurt you because she's hurt and part of her wants to hurt you back. Here is a trick. The next time she says those hateful words, just ignore them. She's looking to get a rise out of you. If she says them and no longer gets a rise out of you, she'll have no reason to say them anymore.

BAT, you're asking for practical advice.

First, learn to be patient. Your wife has experienced a huge trauma that will take years for her to recover from. Do you understand that? You've done what you can to remove yourself from the scene of the crime. Now you wait for her massive injuries to heal.

What have you done to educate yourself on the emotions of a betrayed spouse? What have you learned about PTSD? Do you know why you didn't NOT have an affair (ie, what were the aspects of your character that did not choose to hold true to your marital vow, whatever the temptation?).

These are very early days. Her emotions will be volatile for months and years to come. You're lucky she hasn't lashed out physically; the intensity of emotion in this situation is indescribable. Do you understand that?

You can't get through this without going into those icky emotional places. Do you understand that, too?

TA

No, you made a huge, totally unforgivable error in judgment

See the difference?

Hmm!

Sounds like you need to loose a couple of unsupporting friends.

I would say, since you seem to still be able to spontaneously respirate, her anger is well within reason.

I'm gonna be honnest here BAT, I want you to save your M, but you come accross with an air of dismisivness about your affair, and general superiority about yourself. Your wife is probably also sensing this, can you humble yourself low enough to show genuine remorse?

When she's at her most angry and unhappy, try to get into a loving place. Hold her, tell her you're sorry, tell her you love her...tell her again and again. Do it the next time, and the next, and the next. There's no simple quick formula for fixing this, many more than there's an operation to repair a broken spine and have the person jogging the next day.

TA

Third, it's time to grow up.

An affair is not the action of a mature adult; it's the action of a child. An adult breaks his mother's precious ornament and knows that her anger is about the pain of losing something that had meaning; he wants to do all he can to comfort her and reduce the pain. A child breaks the object and experiences his mother's rage as punishment; he just wants her to stop being angry with him.

Read over what you've told us so far, and try to work out where you are on the adult/child scale.

TA

Hi BaT,

Welcome to MB

I came here a Broken Man in 2007 after an 8 month A that devistated my wife and my family. I was fortunate enought to have a wife that was willing to give recovery an attempt.

I didn't realize until much later that recovery would be just as excruciating for her as the A had been.

I'm so glad she gave me an opportunity to show her that I would fight for her and our family, with every ounce of strength I possessed, for as long as it would take.

Sounds like you may just have as amazing of a wife as I do.

Trust me when I say this..... Your wife's worth fighting for!

How about we go back to some basic questions that may help us to help you.

You said you purchased the online seminar..... Right?

Did you and your wife complete any of the lessons? If so, which ones?

Did you do any phone coaching w/ The Harleys?

Are you and your wife scheduling 15 hrs of Undivided Attention (UA) together?

What MB books have you read?
What MB books has your W read?

What is your wife's MB user name?

Let's start here if that's OK with you!

I do have more questions,,,,, But I promise we will give you some concrete steps you can take to help recover this marriage,,,,, it just won't all come in one day, OK!

Have you been tested for STDs? That is a tangible thng you could do, as well.

It's a fact, Jack!

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...;Words=nanny&Search=true#Post2319284

Funny that several of you brought up the car...My W still keeps in close contact with the OW nieces (that live w/ her). My wife has also hired the older niece to work for us, gave the vehicle to her, and takes the car payment out of her salary....These girls continually keep my W updated on what is going on in OW's life and marriage and any drama that unfolds. I have expressed my concerns with staying involved with these girls, but my W insists, and I feel that I am in no position to keep her from doing anything or talking to anyone she chooses.

To answer another question, I have removed myself from ANYONE that knows her, or knew about the A, and I have not had contact since 9/25...10 days after D-Day, and I sent the "no contact"
letter...and to date, there has been 0 contact...none!

I am genuinely remorseful and trying everything I know to do...The comment I made earlier about divorced friends isn't somthing I am considering...It was meant to make a point...Read the post prior as someone was suggesting that I am looking for a way out...I have removed ALL of these people from my life...I DO NOT communicate with any of my old friends...I do not respond to whimsical emails, talk on the phone, or visit anyone...I have been with my W day in and day out since D-day.

I'll end with this...Thank you all for insight and guidance, and to those of you who have offered practical advise, it is appreciated more than you can ever know

For the rest of you that feel it somehow helpful to lash out and try and make someone else feel worse about what they have done ...It doesn't help, and I personally don't feel that people come to a forum unless they are looking for help, guidance, answers or solutions...They are searching for a way to rebuild what they tore down...additional blame isn't help, guidance, advise or a solution.

I know what I am, I know I am to blame, I know what I did, I have accpeted full responsibility, I know I cannot undue the wrong, I hate myself for having created this situation...and finally, I want to fix it...

Please, before anyone else posts, please read mine from start to finish, and have a better idea of why I am here..My W is all I care about now...If you don't have any helpful ideas, please don't post

Thanks Pep!

BaT ~

For many women, RESPECT is what allows us to be "in love" with a man.

Your W has lost all respect for you. ALL of it. She has ZERO respect for you right now.

You need to find a way to earn this back. I have found that meeting ENs and avoiding LBers mean NOTHING to me if my FWH has not earned my respect back.

What are you doing to earn her respect back?

BaT,

When you allowed yourself to have an affair you didn't make a "mistake" or an error in judgment. You made a choice. That choice was to feed your own selfishness over showing care and protection for your wife, and I might add, your friend as well as both families. Your "mistake" was in believing that you were entitled to fee that selfishness. You went wrong when you chose to go down that road and allow yourself to consider the nanny as someone other than an employee. You stopped thinking about the consequences of your choices and allowed yourself to feed off of the feelings you were having rather than making a rational choice to protect others, most importantly your wife, from your selfish behavior.

Lot's reasons might exist for that kind of thinking process but honestly none of them matter, at least not right now. What matters now is what you will do to prove to your wife that you can't, not won't but cannot, ever go down that road again. You have to show her, not tell her, that you are protecting her from your own selfishness. You have to demonstrate that the person who did this will never be you ever again.

A betrayed spouse loses all reference to what is real and what is unreal. Nothing they ever believed can be trusted. The ONE thing they believed above all else was the nail in the wall they could count on to measure, define and establish everything else in life is GONE.

They lose the ability to trust, not just the WS, but everything they once believed in. Most of all they lose the ability to trust their own ability to KNOW what is true. She no longer trust you but more importantly she isn't sure she can trust herself to know when you are being honest.

The road to the affair was not likely a single event nor did it take place on a single day. The recovery process will not be a single even or a single day either. It will take a lot longer than you can even imagine right now. It will be a roller coaster ride that will make you puke.

Mark

This is VERY VERY unhealthy. Your W needs to stop this TODAY.

Find a different nanny. This is keeping your W at d-day and is part of why she is so angry (some of her anger is very normal at this point...VERY. But this is not helping, in fact it is making it much worse.)

Trust me on this.

BaT...... Did you somehow miss my earlier posts before you submitted your last reply?

TST - Thank you..concrete steps are what I am looking for..I'll email the other info u are asking about.

Married Forever....

You might want to read his wifes thread..... Pep linked it - a few posts ago.

Bat - the email and PM functions don't work on this forum.

If you would..... just continue on this thread with answers. You will receive some amazing help from many good people in the end..... I promise.


You are going to find some 2x4's being swung at you...... maybe even by me. I'm sure you will come out on the other side feeling better regardless..... I recieved 2x4's that make what's been posted to you smell like roses.

Has the affair been exposed to OW's Husband?

TST - It took me awhile to type (one finger at a time). So, i saw ur post after I replied..tried sending a PM, but can't figure out how. thanks again.

Yes Gack, I even wrote an apology letter to him shortly after D-day.

BaT the PM features on this forum are disabled. It really will do some good to post your replies here instead of in a private arena.

FWIW I've been in your shoes and Tst in particular was a large influence in helping me recover myself and my marriage.

You may get hit with some 2x4's but you'll quickly learn the difference between a poster trying to help and a poster trying to lash out - ignore the ones that lash out, develop some thick skin, and settle in for some work.

BAT,

""I had an A with our nanny, she was part of our lives and my W entrusted her with everything, and went out of her way to be kind and generous, even buying her a new car. Her H was also one of my best friends""

Your sitch is much more complicated with many more threads of betrayal than the "average" adulterous affair. And you seem to realize this. Not only were you unfaithful to her, but the Nanny was unfaithful to your wife also. And you betrayed the nanny's husband who was a best friend too, which also comes back affecting your wife.

Your wife has had a double whammy, close to a triple whammy.

Say your wife was brutally gang raped by three sadistic psychopaths and left for dead. How would you help her heal and become any semblance of her former self. How would you treat her day by day? What things could you think of to do for her to bring her back from where-ever she is now?

Not too different from what you have done to her, brother.

And if you think this too extreme, then the empathy of which Pep speaks of is nowhere close.

imho

kirk

"additional blame" ????

I asked your wife where YOUR children were while you were banging the nanny in the children's bed ... and you think any of us have to power to assign "additional blame" ?

We have a female poster who has reconciled her marriage after her WH made 2, count 'em, TWO babies with OW. We don't need pointers from you about what it takes to reconcile or find a solution.

Dr Harley says:

I know the wrong thing to do is ask my W what she wants, and I should just let her vent and rage at me whenever she feels the need to...here it comes...But, i don't feel I am much different than many other men, and I want to fix it...Today was the first day I have read her posts and responses (didn't even know she was posting today)...I will say that there seem to be a few differences of opinion...and that is somthing I intend to work on...Afterall, she was wronged, I did it, and at this stage, she is right and i am wrong...So, my goal is to make sure that we are posting similar issues and I am working towards putting her back together...She's my (W)orld.

Yup.

And that is the number one thing hindering your recovery.

YOU don't really get the severity of the pain YOU caused YOUR wife, and she knows that!

When you finally really get it, if it's not too late, Recovery can really begin.

What does that mean?

Bat,

Let's try these again.............

Have you done any coaching with the Harley's yet?

Have you read any of these MB books?
His Needs Her Needs
Love Busters
Surviving An Affair
Fall in Love Stay in Love

What Online lessons have you completed, if any?

Stay off her thread.
That never goes well.

Stick to yours.
Her issues are different from yours.

Pepper, I'm curious...How do you feel it's beneficial to point out that the WS is to blame, after he/she has already accepted that fact and is coming to others for guidance.

I am certainly not giving you pointers...I am simply asking for guidance and practical advise..."additional blame" is a simple concept...Neither you or anyone else has the power to assign additional blame, it's merely the phrase I chose to describe posters that offer nothing tangible, and tell me that I screwed it up and should fix it.

If you have helpful guidance and insight, offer it.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT try to post similar issues...

Stick to your own questions and your own solutions....... They WILL be much different than what she will need to be doing!

Do you understand this...... In other words, please stay off her thread..... I wouldn't even read it for a while.

Stay out of your wifes thread!

Well?
What does that mean?

I don't intend posting to her thread, and I will not read it, if that is not what I should be doing...

TST - We have not done any coaching yet, but we did get Love Busters, and Surviving an affair...We have completed about 1/2 of the weekend online seminar.

Gack - Not being much different than other men means that we like to fix things that are broken. And, yes I do get what I have done...as I have put out there numerous times today...

You know, I just do not buy the "spotty memory " deal. This was relatively recent. Sex with someone is a big deal.It makes an impression. You sound intelligent. No way you do not remember all the details, IMO.
Maybe your wife is not buying this line, either. That would probably piss her off and make her insecure.
You need to stop lying about your inability to remember stuff. I can remember every woman I ever kissed.

I'm trying to gauge your ability to offer empathy.

So far, it's not looking good.
Can you tell us how you currently express empathy to your W(orld) when the vision of sex in your kid's beds sends her off the ledge?


Are you aware that this sudden vision of you with OW will pop into her mind FOR YEARS every time she tucks her little ones in bed?
The joy of motherhood, one of the small and gentlest things a Mother can enjoy with her children, has been tainted.

What can you do to show empathy each and every time that happens?

Hold her.
Stroke her hair.
Bring her a warm blanket.
Rock her in your arms.
Sing to her.
Cry with her.

You cannot "fix it".
You can show empathy.

Understand?

You give lip service to the fact that you accept blame but you still reek of waywardness. Expect to have it continually pointed out to you until we sense that you "get it."

Sadly, most of us have personally dealt with your defensiveness, with Ws whose lips say one thing and attitude says another. Sniffing out rats is our specialty.

Read TST's entire thread. You will be able to see where he "got it." He is the poster child for a truly reformed wayward as opposed to one who just wants to start over and forget about it.

God's Blessings,

Say

I have given her details of every time we were together, including when, where and how...the things she wants me to remember aren't the big things, its the small details. I'll try and give an example:

I danced w/ OW at a country bar one night...My W did not like the way we danced together (we went out as a group) and pointed it out to me...Obviously I was having a PA with her, so, I lied and promised never to dance w/ her again. About a week ago, my W asked me what song we danced to...I do not have a clue, yet she does not buy it...

I understand her mistrust, and she may never believe anything I say again, I will just do my best to answer anything she wants as honestly as possible.

I will say it again:

Earn her RESPECT.

[hint: telling people here they are assigning "additional blame" and telling folks that piling more guilt on you does NOTHING to earn a woman's respect.

If you look and sound like a wuss here, I am sure it looks the same to her.]

I am not trying to be mean but I believe that recognizing how important it is for a woman to respect her H is often sorely overlooked.

She will act respectfully towards you when you are acting respectable.

And then she will fall in love with you again.

Respect PRECEEDS love.

BAT,
On hearing your story, I recalled your wife�s posts and so I went back & found & re-read some what she has posted. (Disclaimer: I�ve only been at this business of recovery for a little over 13 months, so I�m still figuring stuff out, too.)

You�ve done some things right: Foremost, no-contact. If you�ve held up your end on this since Sept.25, this is good as far as it goes. That you were willing to relocate to protect your marriage & family is positive.

However, the no-contact policy, while necessary for recovery, is not sufficient. Let me bounce some thoughts & questions off you, based on some things that you & your wife have posted. This won�t be fun for you to read, but it is all well-meant for you & your marriage:

## She said �WH begs me almost daily to move forward with our lives� Is this true? She said that you�ve told her �You just want to live in the past." Is this true? (If so, do me a favor and punch yourself in the jaw for me right now, since I�m not there to do it in-person!) Here's the thing: You can�t be out �walking point� in the process of moving forward. You can�t be more ready to move forward than she is. You need to let her set the pace. Your job is simply to let her know that you have her back covered. (Specific advice: Covering her back includes making sure you've told her whatever she's wanted to know, when she wants to know it, with no obfuscation or fudging.) From today onward, you define how well you are doing by how well she is doing.

## She says she�s read �Surviving an Affair.� Have you? If so, what are some things you learned from it? What specific changes have you made in the ways you relate to her & to your kids? What are her top emotional needs? What are you doing regularly now to try to be better at meeting/filling each of them? (Please answer these questions in a subsequent post.) Read about Love-Busters, such as Angry Outbursts. It�s not a Harley term per se, but among the Love-Busters are what I call �Stupid-[censored] Statements� (�SASs�); and when you�ve had an affair in your wife�s home, in your marital bed, caused her & your children to have to relocate, turned her professional life topsy-turvy, and trickle-truthed her afterwards, all within the last 6 months, �You just want to live in the past� is a SAS. Here�s some specific advice: Go to her right now (or call her if you�re not together) and apologize for saying anything like this. (This should be easy for you. After all, as you just said, she's your World.)

## You said �She takes things that I have said to her in the past and repeats them back to me out of context to push my buttons and fight.� Waitasecond: Didja notice your evasion of responsibility there? BAT, you�re not a robot. You control how your �buttons� are wired. You can re-wire them. If she (as you see it) �presses a button� to goad you into a fight, who controls how you react? That�s right � you do. So do you start yelling and getting defensive and protesting about all the good changes you�ve made, and telling her things can�t work unless she moves forward? Or do you stick with accepting your rightful blame, ask her what she needs from you, and set out to deliver on that?

## Very early-on in our recovery, our MC asked me, �[GloveOil], can you take it? If she gets angry at you, can you take it? If she rages at you, can you take it, no matter what?� What she was really asking me was �WILL you take it? Are you committed enough to see it through?� There were times when my wife �- a former conflict-avoider & Sunday-School teacher who never used a bad word -- threw F-bombs at me, pounded on my chest like she�d never hit anything before in her life, or just didn�t want to talk to or be in the same room or building with me. And even more than a year out, even though even she would tell you that our relationship is closer & better than ever, the rollercoaster is still there, there are still dips & turns. It can get better, but it takes patience, and at only 6 months out, and with the specific circumstances of your affair, you've got a ways to go. As other posters have counselled, be patient. You owe her a ream of patience. It was within her rights to toss you out on d-day and drop a suitcase on your head. She has stuck with you, despite having lots more reason to doubt you than you've had to doubt her.

BAT, WILL you take it? If you�re on here posting questions like �Should we just give up and be the best parents we can?�, then I�ll wager that this sort of equivocation & uncertainty is also coming across to your wife, in the discussions or arguments you have with her. You said you want to make her understand that you are there & not going anywhere. This is good as far as it goes, but it doesn�t work as a static concept. You can do it once, you can do it for 5 months, but if you�re using poorly-chosen language that gives your wife any notion that, for you, quitting is still an option someday if things get tough enough, then you�re undermining her ability to trust that you�re really, in fact, not going anywhere. You can't overcome this mistrust with any words, you just have to keep walking the walk.

Is it true you were doing this woman in your home with your kids around? Yikes, no wonder she is pissed to the max. That is crazy, man.

Good, reading her thread is not going to be helpful to you or your marriage at this time.



OK, please schedule a time with your wife to finish viewing the seminar ASAP.

First and foremost, I'm going to recommend you do whatever the Harley's tell you to do. That being said, I suggest you to get the book and the book on CD, Fall in love, Stay in Love. Then read as well as listen to it over and over again.

You, my friend are going to have to learn this program quickly, and FILSIL is the best tutorial book available.

Are you willing to do these things today...... schedule the time and order the books?

You've gotta start somewhere!

tst if I am not mistaken doesn't SH recommend other things first...namely, the "cleaning out of the wound"?

He told us that doing the ENQ and LBQ were going to do no good until the wound was cleaned out.

We started with a blow-by-blow of the A, and I was able to ask any and all questions I wanted/needed. FWH could not hold back on ANYTHING that I asked. I could take however much time I needed to in order to do this. It was our very first step.

Thanks for all the insight, help and advise.

I am concerned that hbh is not going to ALLOW BaT to meet any of her needs until she is sure she knows the whoooooole story.

She is certain he is still lying/covering up things, and he is. She is also going to continue LBing the h*ll out of him as long as he is still protecting himself by lying.

ETA: And he is going to continue LBing HER by lying, including lies of omission. She will never allow him to meet her ENs while this is occurring.

Thanks to all the guys ... in particular TST and GloveOil.
You're fantastic.
I feel like I can back off now. (HUGE sigh of relief)
Let the Marriage Building begin !

Yes MF

But I believe they have spent 4 months on the subject. It appears BaT has answered the questions, he has just been lacking any empathy along the way, which re-triggers everything.

I'm afraid for this couple that if he doesn't learn the CARE portion of the MB Program quickly, his BW is going to have a nerveous break down........ EXTRAORDINARY CARE will help clean the wounds as well!

This is not a 69 Charger with a bad starter, you cant replace the starter and think that "Fixes it"

You cant Fix this, you can fix yourself, and that will help start true recovery.


No you don't

I want to ask you a question, Man to Man, Betrayed Spouse to Wayward Spouse.

Which would you rather have happen.

1. Be locked up for 1 year with a group of Violante sociopaths who have been trained to torture and kill. Have them constantly beat, torture, and yes, rape you to the point where you pass out from the pain! And everyday face the reality that you could die from your injury's at any moment......

Or

2. Your wife have an affair?

If you answered #2, or even thought about it for a split second....Then you don't get it.

It's that bad!

Nothing I have ever experienced comes close to the pain my wife's A caused.

""I feel like I can back off now.""

So how is that there retirement thang workin' for yah, Pep??

BAT,

Let me jump in here a moment and then I will leave it to those already posting to you. They are giving you great advice.

People are "poking" at you because they know something you cannot yet see. Saying "I know I was wrong. I know I was the one at fault. I know..." is a start, but as those who have been on this site for years can tell you, implied in those statements is a "but..." Perhaps the "but" is she shouldn't be doing this to me or she should know that I want this marriage or the affair is over, whatever it is your are telling yourself is implicit in how you say things.

People here are picking that up, more importantly your W is picking it up and it is feeding her anger. If you/we can identify the implicit "but" and address it, it will help you and your W attempt to rebuild this marriage.

I know you feel guilty but you need to move from guilt to remorse and that leads to making amends somehow. usually, amends begins with absolute honesty of everything you remember. Don't wait for her to ask you, you tell her or you write it down and give it to her. Do your best of offer any data that will allow her to confirm what you say.

You become proactive in putting this marriage on a basis of open and honest behavior. You can do this and you don't have to wait. I know your instincts are to "duck and cover" but the bomb going off over your head is going to blow away the table you are ducking under. Instead stand up, be honest, and be open. Her anger is her expressing her primary emotions: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration. When you realize that you will start to see her in a different light. She is a very very wounded little girl right now. You need to protect her with your honesty, your heartfelt actions and your patience for her.

I'm done. I return you back to your regular programming.

God Bless,

JL

Please print this and read it;

It will help you to keep your head on straight when your wife asks you the same questions again and again...... which, By the way, IS normal.
------------------------------------------


Joseph�s letter

Applicable to WHY disclosing all the truth matters;


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened Joseph�s letter

Applicable to WHY disclosing the truth matters;


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)
_________________________

BAT,

My husband is Skald. TST helped save our marriage. Please listen to him and do what he says.

About being a normal guy and wanting to "fix" everything:

Skald tried to do this with me and it pissed me off. It pushed me away. Sometimes, you just need to sit there and take it. Then ask if you can give her a hug or just hold her hand if she won't accept a hug. Say you are sorry for the pain you've caused and express how much you wish you could take it all away. Honestly, I couldn't hear that enough. I needed to hear how sorry he was. I needed to hear that he WANTED to erase that past and that he WISHED it NEVER HAPPENED. I needed to hear that he felt that way too. And no matter how mad and withdrawn I was, a part of me needed to be held.

Your wife feels so very alone right now, and she feels like she can never trust anybody ever again.

Please, don't try to "fix" her. She's not broken. She's stronger than either of you know. She's just scared and doesn't know where to go, because her safe haven with you is gone.

If you had you would not have written this: "I don't get the impression that she truly wants to fix our M." You have no idea the battle she is struggling with....none.

"Keeping tabs on the OP" is likely to continue for some time, particularly of the OP is in such "close" proximity. I'm almost 5 years past D-Day and I still find myself spot-checking on the OM, though it happens a LOT less regularly than it did just 6 months after D-Day.

Time will eventually deal with this issue.

tst...can you please go read his BW's thread? She has NOT gotten all of the answers...he has not been RH with the details of the A that she NEEDS.

This is a huge stumbling block. I know because it happened to me too...she CANNOT move forward and allow him to meet any of her ENs until this part of recovery has been completed.

I believe they have an appt on Friday with Steve...it might be best until then for BaT and hbh to not talk about the A...let Steve guide them through this part. It's pretty gnarly and needs to be dealt with delicately.

Bat,

Let me continue the auto repair analogy Gack began above.

You wrapped your prized marriage around a tree. It isn't just body damage but the frame is bent, the body is shot, the motor is broken and even the tires are trashed. If it were a 1997 Honda Accord you'd call a wrecker and have him haul it away and be happy if it only cost you 100 bucks to get it hauled off.

But it isn't a 1997 Honda Accord. It's 1967 427 Cobra AC. It is rare and precious and you wrecked it by being a careless fool who was showing off his manhood to feel good about himself. It is worth much more than the sum of its parts and it doesn't need to be fixed; it needs to be restored. You can't pay for new parts to fix it. There aren't any! You have to take it apart, straighten each and every piece, MAKE new ones when the old cannot be repaired. Paint and parts will NOT fix this.

The thing is, you walked away from the wreck. You have a chance to make this even better than when you wrecked it, but you aren't going to find any shortcuts, magic solutions or find anybody else who can take the problem off your hands and bring it back to you having been made all better. YOU have to rebuild this one piece at a time. MAYBE you'll be allowed to drive again when you are done, but until it is rebuilt, you have only one job and that is to restore what you trashed by acting like an 18 year old after a high school football game.

Your wife needs to be the most precious thing you've ever had. You must be willing to do whatever it takes to help her to get back to being the pristine special and unique thing of beauty she was before you ran her off the road. You can't "fix" this. All you can hope for is a chance to make right what you so casually destroyed. Starting from scratch is easier than restoring what you wrecked. It is up to you to make it right and the first step is to realize just how much damage you have done.

What you wrecked was worth more than you can pay. All you can do now is to work to make it better than it once was.

Mark

tst, from reading the other side, I would agree with this assessment. And would add that he is still very foggy. He has tried to portray this filthy affair to his BS in a beautiful, romantic light, when really it is about as romantic as 2 pigs going at each other in the pig pen. It doesn't get anymore disgusting and putrid than that. This is the story of 2 pigs in heat and to hear such a story romanticized has got to be adding fuel to the fire.

BAT, can you understand how your affair looks to objective observers who are not high on pig slop? I think your view of your affair is very harmful to the recovery of your marriage and asking her to view it in the same way would be enormously abusive.

Another thing that is fueling her trauma and keeping her furious is being told to "get over it" and put it in the past. That is like telling a rape victim to "get over it." It shows a profound lack of empathy for the rape victim.

I tell you these things, not to be harsh, but from the perspective of an objective observer who has been both wayward and betrayed. As someone who WANTS to see your marriage recover. I hope that your wife takes my advice to vent to us here, but we need you to not fan the flames with loony, unrealistic "romantic" views of a pig affair along with suggestions for her to get over it.

This probably makes her feel safer to keep tabs on the OW. Right now her need to protect herself from you and the OW outstrips her need to not be triggered. She is a walking trigger anyway, so this just makes her feel safe to keep an eye on that vicious skank.

I've been following along MF...... I suggested FILSIL (for HIM) because it is the quickest tutorial of the MB Program.

It will help him with plugging the holes that all the LB's are causing and it will give him a general view of how to provide extraordinary care for his wife.

It will cover UA, RH, & POJA as well...... it's a great book!

I wouldn't expect his W to open her Love Bank account for quite some time regardless of what he does right now, but the sooner he learns how to do all these, the better!

Mel, I'm glad you see what I mean...... without empathy while answering these historical questions, re-triggering will never stop, because his W is looking for more than just an answer.... she is looking for a change in his heart, which cannot happen until the fog clears.

BaT..... FILSIL and finish the weekend seminar ASAP!

You have something agaist pigs, Mel? An affair is nowhere near as honest and natural as a couple of God's creatures procreating.

Please, tell me you are making that up about dancing with this woman in front of your wife, BAT. That is downright sadistic.
My WW did something similar. She woke me from a sound sleep and described her MM's physique.
Please, man. You did the Nanny, your friend's wife. You did it in your bed with your kids around. And , you danced with your OW in front of your wife.
Man, I am shocked she is willing to try.
WHy did you rub her nose in it like that. That is way overboard in comparison to your run of the mill affair.

Sounds like you were punishing her. You must have been really pissed at her to take it that far.

No, just selfishly entitled, cruel and egotistical.

It may not seem like it, but the fact that your wife IS so angry with you is actually hopeful.

Even if she's yelling and angry, at least she still gives enough of a damn to engage with you.

But when a woman goes silent, she's finished - and so is your marriage.

I'm sensing that there is something punitive going on. There's a lingering smell of resentment and desire to hurt.

TA

To me, this was just way over the top stuff. And, I bet there is more.

There's always more to every story!

BaT,

What did you do? Did you give your wife another selfish demand?

You've got to stop the Selfish Demands if you desire to have any chance at recovery.

You are right, pigs are doing nothing wrong. My apologies to pigs for the insulting comparison.

Holy smokes. I just read the part about his bragging to their friends and aqauintences(even his personal trainer) about banging someone half his age.
This is Hannibal Lecter stuff.

Sounds much more like Immature stuff to me. These are a child's actions.

TA

BaT if you'd like some offline help.... click the notify tab at the bottom right of this post and the Moderators will exchange our e-mail addy's....

BaT, I have read your entire thread here and you are getting some very sound advice. I think some of the posters are getting mixed messages from reading both your W's and your posts. If we are confused by hearing from both of you, I can only imagine how the conversations between you and your W are going!

The one glaring thing that stood out to me was communication in your relationship is poor. You say you spend every day all day together. If your W is as distraught as she sounds on her thread, then I can't imagine that your time together is very fun. Part of recovery needs to be spending Undivided Attention time together where you rediscover each other. Can you and your W agree to set aside one hour a day to discuss the A where you agree to be Open and Honest and she gets to ask you anything. This gives you a chance to take a breather from A talk while giving your W a scheduled opportunity to squelch her fears. In case you didn't know it, your W is imagining all kinds of things about what you did with OW, some of which may be true, some which may be highly exaggerated. She is living with constant films playing in her head about what she thinks you did. Surprisingly, knowing the truth helps these films to quiet down.

I will say you both must learn to communicate without attacking. Yes, there were times that I exploded on GO when certain things were revealed or I was triggered in some way, but overall our most productive discussions came from calm sane sharing of feelings.

Zelmo, his behavior has been no more sadistic than most WS's. Even GO, who I would classify as a kind, compassionate man, did things during the A that were mean in retrospect. Singing a duet with the OW at a Christmas party at our church in front of me and all our friends? Inviting the OW and her now xH to our house for a Christmas party where she hugged me and sent me a thank you note afterwards? These are cruel memories that I have had to forgive, but no one has ever said that Ws's have their BS's best interests at heart.

BaT ~

What do you do when your W is hurting...crying...upset?

If you are doing the wrong things, we can help you know what the RIGHT things to do are. Please tell us what you do when she is upset.

This is a start to showing her the empathy she DESPERATELY needs right now. You can be her lifeline but it all starts with empathy and what you do to help her when she is hurting.

I think we lost him.

Likely he is still reading but doesn't know what to say.

When a wayward spouse (Adulterer) is trying to forgive themselves, they try to block some of their past behavior. They also want to be forgiven and "Just move one."

Step One: Stop trying to forgive yourself. ALL (or most) BS want to know the details so they can process the hurt. Telling her you don't remember is, well, it is hard to explain. But it hurts.

I wonder what BAT does for a living. A person's world view is very often linked to their profession.

Larry

BAT,

What I find most interesting is your choice of screen names.....

WS (you)- By_A_Thread

BS (your wife)- Hurt_But_Hopeful

One would think, given the circumstances that it would be the other way around......

not2fun

BaT,

You're not givin' up on it, are ya?

Mark:

It is hard to retain those who are that deep in the fog. But you know that

Larry

BaT,

Have you read about Extrordinary Precautions (EP's) yet?

If you have, would you list what EP's you have in place now!

Maybe we can help shore up this area with you???

Perhaps

Might be busy getting some new tats and working on the six pack abs.

Your wife posted that you have an appointment with Steve Harley today.

How'd it go?

Way to throw fuel on the fire of a sad, vulnerable, struggling relationship for the possibility of a chuckle.

I hope you are stiil reading, BAT and will continue to post in the future. Your BW sees signs of improvement and increased empathy. That is a really good start.

God's Blessings,

Say

The Prodigal Son is my favorite parable, because humanity is lost without the hope of forgiveness.
The parable gives me hope for all of us.

God Bless

Bat, I will paste some links to threads and posts that may help you in the empathy department. Please don't get caught up in the details but listen to the bigger message when you read and see how you would feel if you were in the shoes of the BS.


Sugar_cane's response from Looking4's thread...S_C is a BW and L4 was a WW the time this was written:

What you wrote brings me to something you said earlier. I know you have explained that you were only venting when you wrote about feeling used, but I wonder if you have really dealt with your responsibilities in getting involved in another person's marriage.

You (L4) wrote:

So why am I (L4) still so mad at OM? I was spewing to my H about it two days ago. I feel that the OM exploited my vulnerabilities and broken marriage to get in my pants then kicked me to the curb like garbage once his W found out, even though the OM and I had ended it ourselves before. I know, I know, I know... I deserve no sympathy. And doing NC quick and abrupt was needed for all of us. I know all of this in my head. But it doesn't make it feel any better, knowing how completely used I was for the OM's thrills. I thought I was in love with this man and that I was smarter than that. And I feel like he's laughing at me about it. He and his wife are moving on and I really do want that if that's what she wants. (Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.) But there's the little piece of me that is still so angry about how he used me, lied to me, then left me in a heap on the side. Again, I know that's how it has to be and that affairs don't have happy endings. But I'm angry that I'm left standing here known as the home-wrecking wh**e and he's merrily going along like all's well that ends well. Obviously, I'm still grappling with this. Sorry 'bout that little rant (end quote).


You should not assume for one minute that "he and his wife are moving on", if by that you mean that his wife is not paying dearly for your involvement in her marriage. I would suggest that she is shattered by this and that her world has come to an end. You would do well to read the many stories by BSs here about the moment of discovery and gain a glimmer of insight into how devastating that moment feels. Your words to OM showed her that, not only had her husband been having a sexual relationship with you, but that deep feelings (perhaps words of love) had been expressed by both of you and that he had considered leaving her and their children for you. If you told him that your life was as bad as you said in your post, then she would have known instantly that he had told you that his life was the same.

She found out in a text message that her H did not love her, was suffering seeing her face first thing every morning, was merely enduring her kisses as he left the house and returned from work, was hating lying next to her in bed and wishing you were there instead, was hating spending weekends with her when he could not escape to work and had longed for their last holiday to be over because he could not stand pretending to be happy for extended periods in her company. For some time now he had wanted to get away from her, her boring parents, the tedious get togethers with friends in which happiness was being faked, the hypocritical wedding anniversary dinner at a restaurant that he had had to pretend to enjoy, his having had to sign cards to her with "love you always, X" when he hadn't meant it... he had hated everything about his unhappy lie of a marriage to her. He had wanted to be far away from everything to do with her, except for their children. He loved his children enough to try and give them stable childhoods, but every day was torture, and she had not known this until that moment. However difficult things had grown to be between them, she had never realised that he must be feeling THAT BAD, and she saw it in that moment she picked up his phone. You cannot imagine how that felt, but I can, because that is what happened to me (D Day 2).

What your OMW went on to do was to listen to him ask her not to give up on the marriage, to his telling her that he loved her and always had done, that he had not stayed only for the children and would not be doing so now, if she gave the marriage another chance. She had not believed him and does not still, but she is prepared to put her children's needs above her own, for now, and so she is staying in the marriage. She is living with monumental unhappiness because she knows her children would be badly affected by divorce, and she cannot bear to put her happiness above theirs. I don't know what he told her about his feelings for you, about the depth of your involvement and about what he had actually told you about loving you and leaving her. Be assured, however, that if she is prepared to try again in this marriage, she is choking on her misery over how intimate he became with you.

Quote:
(Dang, she has no idea the things he told me. She would so be out the door if she knew, even if they were just lies.)

It is very likely that she has by now found out the nature of the things he told you. Do you think that she is only prepared to stay because he has managed to pass off the affair as a fling, in which he was cool and upfront about what he wanted from you? Do you think that she has not demanded more details from him, that she has not challenged him when he gave the "light" version of the affair ("why is she saying these things about her feelings for you, if you never said them to her?"), that she has not picked him up endlessly on inconsistencies and illogical statements, that she has not asked him to show her previous emails between you and discovered the basic, appalling details of how far this relationship went?

You've made an apology to her, but I wonder whether you have really thought about what you have done to her. Certainly, you seem to think that their marriage is relatively untroubled, and that he is "merrily" going on with his life, and by implication, she with hers.

She is doing no such thing. She is thinking every minute when she is awake, and having bad dreams in her sleep, about whether he is lying about his feelings for her and cannot stand her, about whether he feels repulsion when she initiates sex and he makes an effort only because he has not got you, whether he cannot bear the way she feels inside, is disgusted by her stretch marks (that he gave her, with their children), finds her stringy breasts revolting and her ageing face and grey hairs peeking through, difficult to look at.

He probably feels no such thing, but she will not know that now, or for some time yet. He had a thrilling affair with you, a woman that he had long been attracted to, and so must find gorgeous. How does he come down from that and go back to loving the woman that he was driven away from?

When she works out, as I have done, that the problem is not with her but with her H, she will not feel any better. She will then be faced with trying to rebuild a marriage with a man who had no appreciation for what he has with her, no commitment to extraordinary protection for her or his marriage, no compunction about destroying his children's futures for sex on the side and only the fear of getting caught to stop him becoming involved with someone else further down the line.

She isn't feeling good about her life or her marriage and it will be a long time before she does again. You should acknowledge that, and never write about her again as if she is untouched by this and you are the victim.

A humbled FWS and insight into what is taken from a BS:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=003000

A more recent thread - even after 2+ yrs from Dday the trauma is still there - what to expect:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2243887&page=1

Excerpt posted by skyrider on what a BS feels like:

BaT,
I don't know if you are still reading from your thread, but if you are....I wish you could talk to my FWH because he could be the MB poster guy for how to show a BS that he really wants the marriage.

He could tell you how he never wants again to be the source of my pain. He would tell you that he wanted me and our M so badly that no matter what LBs I threw at him in those early months, he was there to love and protect me from new pain. He told me that he would love me and try to make it up to me for the rest of our lives; I told him that it would be harder to love the new me than it had been to love the old me. Still he begged my forgiveness and said he would take whatever crumbs I would give him. When I cried from the depths of my soul and I felt that I could dissolve in a puddle and die, he held me in his arms and apologized yet again. When I went crazy and started smashing Christmas tree ornaments, he gently restrained me and loved me and apologized again for his betrayal. He tells me every day that he loves and adores me and is eternally grateful for his second chance. (I no longer cry and scream. We now try to live the MB principles,but it took me a while to get there.)

Plan A did not exist for us because he, like you, immediately ended the affair with absolute NC. He got "it." He knew that he had destroyed my life with his selfish behavior. The only real security I had ever known was within the bounds of my marriage; and with his betrayal, he tore down my marital fort of security. Your BS seems to be a very private person, who chose with her wedding vows to trust only you; please try to understand that, despite her strength in the business world, she is and will be devastated by this for a very long time.

If you truly love her as you say you do, you will put what you need way in the back of the bus because she has a lot of healing to do. My wonderful husband would tell you that you have the balm she needs for her wounds; and that balm is patience and understanding.

GY

BaT, you just didn't say anything resembling this to your wife, right?

So were you serious about wanting to save your marriage, or was your first post here just a big smokescreen in the thought that you could try to fool your kids into thinking someday that you made a good-faith effort? Or do you think the D judge will go easier on you if you stick around for 6 months?

You doinked the nanny, repeatedly, in your wife's home, and less than half a year out, you're critiquing your wife b/c her Plan A isn't up to your belatedly honed-up standards? Buddy, get an appreciation for irony. Or better yet, get over yourself! Grow a set! Get humble-- for a change. Look at yourself in the friggin' mirror, fercryin' out loud!

It's not all about you. In marriage, or in life. You've got kids who are gonna get, from you, an idea of what a man is supposed to act like toward those whom he professes to love. And for some reason, you've got a wife who has given you the gift of still thinking enough of you to keep you around. Resolve not to make her regret it.

I'm gonna give BaT a couple of points. He did come here, we don't know why, maybe just to placate his wife. But he is also doing the MB homework and talking to the Harleys.

He apparently has NC with the OW and is willing to try to save the marriage. He is probably still in withdrawal, and a bit foggy.

But how many of our FWS's here were foggy at first? Some of them are now our best posters and they truly GET it.

So for now, I am very encouraged.

This is a case of fog of a type known as cumulogranite - mountainous entitlement with amazing stony outcroppings of ego going all the way to the top. And no indication of ever having had any soft carpet of empathy covering it anywhere either.

IMO this BW is foggy and this WH is, well, something else entirely.

Really, Aph?

This WS is at least putting in some effort. Mine never did a thing, zero, nada, zilch.

Yes, he is foggy and may not realize the damage he has done to his family, but we've all seen so many turn-arounds here that I have to have hope.

He isn't posting, which is unfortunate, but hopefully he will realize that despite some of the harsh posts, folks here are pulling for recovery.