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BTinTrouble #2382703 05/31/10 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk


"I DEMAND that you end your affair with Joe. If it does not end I will BE filing on grounds of adultery and will ask that I be awarded primary custody of our son becuase of the immoral and unfit environment you have placed him in. Nor will I have to pay a CENT of alimony becuase in our state one does not have to pay alimony when there is adultery.

The OM will be called into court to give testimony of his affair under oath. His wife, WHO SAID THAT THEY HAD NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED DIVORCE, will have grounds to divorce him."

Say this sweetly and do not lovebust when you say this. smile

MAKE SURE YOUR WW KNOWS THAT THE OM HAD NEVER BROUGHT UP DIVORCE TO HIS WIFE. He was LYING to your wife. Bringing out any lies you glean from the OMW will be very impactful. You should stay in daily contact with the OMW.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Mulan #2382707 05/31/10 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mulan
Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to "I dont trust you"


"Okay."



"I trust myself"

MelodyLane #2382711 05/31/10 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk


"I DEMAND that you end your affair with Joe. If it does not end I will BE filing on grounds of adultery and will ask that I be awarded primary custody of our son becuase of the immoral and unfit environment you have placed him in. Nor will I have to pay a CENT of alimony becuase in our state one does not have to pay alimony when there is adultery.

The OM will be called into court to give testimony of his affair under oath. His wife, WHO SAID THAT THEY HAD NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED DIVORCE, will have grounds to divorce him."

Say this sweetly and do not lovebust when you say this. smile

MAKE SURE YOUR WW KNOWS THAT THE OM HAD NEVER BROUGHT UP DIVORCE TO HIS WIFE. He was LYING to your wife. Bringing out any lies you glean from the OMW will be very impactful. You should stay in daily contact with the OMW.


This is a good conversation, for the future.
For today, I think it reveals too much of your plan to the enemy.

I suggest you wait until WW has revealed HER so-called plans first.
Let her blab.
Find out what is going on in her pea-brain.

OTOH, everything MelHell has said, is 100% the truth.
Good conversation for the future.

You have WW on the ropes, keep her there without telegraphing your next moves.

Pepperband #2382716 05/31/10 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pepperband
[This is a good conversation, for the future.
For today, I think it reveals too much of your plan to the enemy.


She needs to know this plan TODAY so that her illusions of an easy, amicable divorce are dashed. She needs to know what her future holds, and the sooner the better.

Quote:
From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2382722 05/31/10 04:18 PM
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k, thanks mel

she asked when I am going to work tomorrow.

I said, we have a counseling appointment (Jen Harley...)

she said are you going to work after that?
Isaid no

she said what are you doing.

WW, I dont trust you anymore, I am not going to tell you what I am doing.

She said, "oh, right..."

I dont know what this talk will be tonight, I need to memories Mels bullet points, and I cna take it form there.

thank you so much, keep them coming


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2382723 05/31/10 04:19 PM
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So, ask her what she wants first? Or just hit my demands right off the bat?


Lifelong recovery never ends.

MelodyLane #2382725 05/31/10 04:31 PM
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I think I am somewhere between Pep and ML on this one.

BT definitely needs to listen and let her reveal her plans and state of mind. The less he talks, the more he will learn.

She either is currently, or will soon be, terrified as she begins to see what a cynical user this 50 year old man is of a very young woman. But you can't put those words in her mouth. (Friends, however, might be able to say things like that to her.

She is still whacked out on affair chemicals, though, and you cannot afford to believe a word she says, attribute one shred of rational thought to her, or give her the slightest bit of financial support that can be used to further the affair.

You tell her you are her safe place to land once she is ready to meet the conditions. Smile. Shower affection on your son.

I also agree that he has to bust the fantasy using the best means at his disposal. What are those in BT's case? He's done a hero's job so far this weekend.

In my case, I used a different tactic. I informed my H from day 1 that in no way would I make it easy for him to abandon his children to pursue an affair! In fact, I was so concerned for DS16's need for his dad that I was sure he was going to need to take primary custody (autistic, mentally retarded, prone to rage outbursts and guaranteed to react badly to a D....very fun for an OW, doncha think?) And I would be so heartbroken that I didn't think I could stay in the area.

That my seem heartless but it scared the you know what out of H and highlighted to him that the A was all about fantasy and totally at odds with the reality of daily life. I was not about to let him run away into narcissistic fantasy land and abandon his son.

Are there responsibilities that your W is running away from? Can you find a way to hold her feet to the fire about those, whether or not she continues the A? It's just a thought, my case was a little bit unusual.

And I am happy to report that DS16 still has 2 parents, together, and happier all the time. That only can happen after the alien leaves the building, however.


Chrysalis
BTinTrouble #2382733 05/31/10 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
threw me off, she just showed up, with 2 cops.

they took our info, I asked for theirs, asked to take notes, asked why they were here, said cuz she asked for it, I said ok

they said we obviously issues, and we need to work them out in a civil manner.

I said, thank you for time Sgt, have a nice day

they left

fog got thick in here....

Plan A... GO!

She asked about how was she was supposed to get gas with no money in the account, I offered her $60 cash, she said no thanks, what did you think I would clean the account out?

I said, WW, I dont trust you. I love our family, and you are welcome to come back when you are ready, but I have to protect our family and your behavior is a threat. Would you like some watermelon?

(no BS, I had watermelon on the table...)

I asked friends over, so I asked her if she was ok with that, she said "whatever" seeing if friends are still comfortable coming over....


Wayward pre-emptive strike while in fog: " Officer, you've got to come home with me! My brutal H is ready to hatchet murder me! We're having "issues"!

BT, if she brings in Johnny Law again, make sure you expose her to them, as well.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

MelodyLane #2382734 05/31/10 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble


I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to

"I dont trust you"


"Thats nice." smile


"What a coincidence - I don't trust you, either." grin


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

BTinTrouble #2382735 05/31/10 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
she hasnt said a word in an angry tone yet...

lots of snide remarks.

I need some ideas for small talk, and quick tip on what to say in response to

"I dont trust you"


Having friend over will dilute anything you have to say tonight, which is unfortunate. If you must 'small talk' with her, keep it confined to talking about your son.

Gear up for your real conversation. You need to talk about the state and future of your M. Until then, keep your friends entertained at your best. Let her see the great guy she married that everyone loves.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

MelodyLane #2382739 05/31/10 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
I need some ideas for small talk


"I DEMAND that you end your affair with Joe. If it does not end I will BE filing on grounds of adultery and will ask that I be awarded primary custody of our son becuase of the immoral and unfit environment you have placed him in. Nor will I have to pay a CENT of alimony becuase in our state one does not have to pay alimony when there is adultery.

The OM will be called into court to give testimony of his affair under oath. His wife, WHO SAID THAT THEY HAD NEVER EVEN DISCUSSED DIVORCE, will have grounds to divorce him."

Say this sweetly and do not lovebust when you say this. smile

MAKE SURE YOUR WW KNOWS THAT THE OM HAD NEVER BROUGHT UP DIVORCE TO HIS WIFE. He was LYING to your wife. Bringing out any lies you glean from the OMW will be very impactful. You should stay in daily contact with the OMW.


Feel her out to see how she feels about having life-long disease, as well. Do not lovebust on this one, either. She has jeopardized her health and yours.

The time for this conversation is now. ASAP. As soon as the friends go.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

BTinTrouble #2382754 05/31/10 05:42 PM
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Quote:
she asked when I am going to work tomorrow.

I said, we have a counseling appointment (Jen Harley...)

she said are you going to work after that?
Isaid no

she said what are you doing.

WW, I dont trust you anymore, I am not going to tell you what I am doing.

She said, "oh, right..."


She's planning to do something she doesn't want you to be around for.

Change the locks? Take your son somewhere?

I'd think about putting a VAR in her car. Under her seat. I'm sure she will avoid talking inside your house again. But, she will probably feel safe talking in her car. Try to find out what she's up to.


Marshmallow #2382775 05/31/10 06:02 PM
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I second Marshmallow. It does seem suspicious. I'd recommend you try not to go anywhere tomorrow. If she wants to go somewhere, maybe you should try to go with her, or have a friend check up on her to see if she is at where she says she's going. Get a GPS for her car. Check in with OMW.

As for the conversation, I am more with ML, because she guided me throughout my situation and we are recovering today in large part to her. She has also tried to help my friend out. She has great instincts.

If you haven't yet, you may want to take a look at the reverse fogbabble thread. I think it's under noteable posts.

I like Maritalbliss's idea about feeling her out on the disease part. I didn't feel my H out but I told him soon after exposure that I had made an appointment for STD testing and I expected him to bring me because he was the one who put me at risk. He freaked out at that one (he was still denying the A), but I stood firm. Another way to punch a hole in his fog and to make him face the consequences of what he had done and the reality of it all.


Me, BS, 35 - H, FWS, 38
Married 15 years, 4.5 years into Recovery
EA/PA 7/09-9/09
DDay 9/5/09, started Plan A
Exposed 9/13/09, started preparing for Plan B
H finally confessed and agreed to NC 9/27/09, never went to Plan B
Still a MB rookie, but striving to learn more and put it into practice every day... w/ FWH along for the ride
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Remember...her addiction is ALL about OM.

Her questions about tomorrow and work likely have more to do with meeting up with OM than anything else. HE is her priority right now.

She MAY be playing some kind of custody game....but I still bet it's about OM.


As far as what to talk about. Stick to the Plan A do's and don't list. Ask open ended questions and just listen, acknowledge and move on.

Here's a post I gave SickofLimbo about a month ago with some good talking points you may like:

Quote:
No 2x4's from me...sometimes you've just got to have these conversation ESPECIALLY considering you aren't there.

The way I look at these conversations as you got more time to Plan A your wife. Heck...it's one of the longest conversations you've had with her in weeks. THAT'S GOOD.

Just don't expect to accomplish much...just listen and try to plant seeds. Let her negatively and resolute just bounce off you. Protect YOUR lovebank and don't allow withdraws...just speak to her as though she's the crazy delusional lady that's in a mental hospital whom you are ALMOST sympathetic for because she appears so lost in the haze.

Throw things in like...

* Steve Harley's line: "Bottom line honey...what is the best case scenario for our children???? That we save our marriage and give them 2 parents in a loving relationship"

* Don't you want to model to our children that when things get tough that their parents have the ability to not only overcome their difficulties but to rise above them.

* Don't we want to teach our children commitment. Like it or not...we committed ourselves to each other for life. I am prepared to honor that agreement.

* Do you think ANYONE will ever love you more than I do? Who else can you think of that would be willing to forgive you and restore their relationship with you considering what you've done to me by betrayal. Betrayal is abuse...yet here I am trying to reconcile with you. OM wouldn't do that for you (ask him...he's already likely told you he wouldn't stand a second for what you and him are doing to me). Mark my words, you will NEVER be loved like you have the opportunity to be loved again by me.

*You keep saying "happiness"...you know it's unattainable the way you are going about it, don't you? After destroying me and our family...you and OM have ZERO shot at finding happiness. So what then??? You will have destroyed your family, destroyed your honest marriage and have hurting children who are themselves unhappy. What do you do THEN to find happiness??? The point is...no matter where you go...there YOU will be. Happiness really comes from doing the right thing. The right thing here is to discard OM, restore our marriage and find happiness with who you were meant to be. To BLOOM where you were planted. We can do this TOGETHER.

*Ultimately...honey, you won't like my "giving up" much. If and when we are divorced, you won't be my friend. You will be my xwife that cheated on me and left me and our family for another man. NOTHING I have ever done compares to the disrespect and abuse of adultery. Thus, I will model proper behavior for our children to take forward in their lives in how most properly to behave in the face of disrespect and abuse and have little to nothing to do with you as I attempt to rebuild MY LIFE. This won't be to be vindictive or punish you, on the contrary, it will be to protect myself from your additional abuse as you, like every other wayward wives, will attempt to get me to "be friends...you know, for the kids" (whom you are totally disregarding with your wayward behavior) and just accept things the way they are which, quite frankly is WRONG and unacceptable. I'll also endevour to create a safe & stable place for our children during my time with them far away from the chaos and unpredictability of persons who discard people and commitments so easily to seek their "happiness" no matter the costs.

Sounds like I'm saying, say a lot but really these are just small seeds to be planted and replanted using differing language intermitently along the way in these conversations.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - asking her to read a whole book isn't likely to be fruitful. She's HIDING from her guilt and won't read anything which may dissaude her from her wayward rationalizations and justifications. You are better off send her small excerts, perhaps, with a link back to the whole thing. Maybe use language from "30 Reasons to Stop an Affair" by Rick Reynolds that I often refer to. I like using it since it doesn't direct the waywards back to MB at all. If you don't have it...google it.


Mr. W


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
BTinTrouble #2382784 05/31/10 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
So, ask her what she wants first? Or just hit my demands right off the bat?


BT, ask what she is thinking but be sure lay out your plan, giving her a picture of reality. This will slow her down and give her second thoughts. This is real important given that she believes there will be no consequences for her affair. She needs to be disabused of that notion promptly.

And DON'T smear the OM in any way, but subtly repeat what the OMW said, that he has NEVER even mentioned divorce. Let him know that the OMW felt like he was just using her for sex. BE SURE AND MENTION THAT HE HAS AN STD AND THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE SEX WITH HER UNTIL SHE GETS TESTED. Plant little doubts like that.

After you tell her what her future holds [divorce, no alimony, etc] tell her that a better alternative would be to fall in love again. Tell her you have a plan for that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2382790 05/31/10 06:27 PM
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Also...from what I know about your states laws about adultery...if you have sex with her again after you knew about her adultery you MAY be foregoing your rights to make such claim.

I've heard stories of attorney's advising their wayward clients to go home and start having sex with their spouse again EVEN IF THEY PLAN TO DIVORCE to avoid losing alimony.

Mr. W


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
BTinTrouble #2382792 05/31/10 06:27 PM
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p.s. and don't give her anymore money. She will clean you out if you allow it. Let her know that you are going to give her any money until this is settled. You can put gas in her car and go get groceries.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MrWondering #2382793 05/31/10 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Also...from what I know about your states laws about adultery...if you have sex with her again after you knew about her adultery you MAY be foregoing your rights to make such claim.

I've heard stories of attorney's advising their wayward clients to go home and start having sex with their spouse again EVEN IF THEY PLAN TO DIVORCE to avoid losing alimony.

Mr. W


AGREE with this. Plus, you may get an STD if you have sex with her.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MrWondering #2382795 05/31/10 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: MrWondering
Also...from what I know about your states laws about adultery...if you have sex with her again after you knew about her adultery you MAY be foregoing your rights to make such claim.

I've heard stories of attorney's advising their wayward clients to go home and start having sex with their spouse again EVEN IF THEY PLAN TO DIVORCE to avoid losing alimony.

Mr. W


She has herpes apparently, or likely does.

SWW

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Ok, we agreed on something...

Friends were over while son was awake anyway, we dont talk when he is awake.

She saw the neat guy everyone smiles around

Success there

Talk...

She said "fine" to not contacting OM, except wants to call and tell him tonight. Wont let me be there for it.

I said I am not ok with it, she said basically, "tough"

However, she did say that she is willing to do anything for her son, and if that means living with me, and my 'demands' for a while, fine.

My other demand was to be present for our phone with Harley tomorrow night which she agreed to...

so.... I dont know, she agreed to counseling with Harleys, and said lots of stuff that wasnt attacking me, and neither of us really gave any ground... so it seems like its kinda neutral. We both stated many different ways that "it would be nice" if we worked out...

so, I dont know

Plan for tomorrow... I am going to wait one day on the lawyers. I dont really have to go to work this week anyway. We have accepted that we dont trust each other, so I will be with her all day. We will run errands and be with our son, and counseling in the evening with Harley.

So, protects my son because I am not leaving him alone, I agreed to nothing other than wanting to be a family, and she agreed to counseling...

I did not get the full "NC" that I want... but I guess I dont know, will wait for counseling.

She asked how much it cost

I told her

She was like WHAT?!?!

I said, well, I told you, I will do anything for this family. How much is a happy marriage worth to you?

silence....

Whats the worst that could happen if we give it a try? Its a stranger.

She said ok....


Lifelong recovery never ends.

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