Oh, no. I did not say you were wasting anyones time. I said you were getting great advice, and after dozens of pages, did not seem to be taking any of the advice.

MB is active participation. Participation by (at first) you, no one can prevent or hinder this recovery. You are addicted to another man outside of your M.

That is not your H's fault, not even the OM's fault. It needs and can only be addressed by you.

You are addicted. Addicts need a plan. my 0.02.

And, again. It does not matter if your H likes, ignores, cares or wants to deal with this problem...right now.

The actions being taken that are putting your M at risk are going on inside you. You must squash the thoughts about the OM. Your H could not do this even if he wants to.

We all want you to be happy. No one here is posting to ruin your day. What I see is you fighting the very concepts that are crucial to protect your M.

MB is not the problem, it is the solution.

Your husband is either stupid or blissfully naive. His thoughts on marriage and the world are extremely short-sighted.

If he thinks we are poisoning you, why don't you invite him on here to "set us straight."

I can see why your marriage is having problems. First of all, your WH believes in very limited marital boundaries. He thinks you should just have the willpower to avoid affairs. He has no clue how hard it is to stop yourself once you have started going down that slippery slope. Most people don't until it's already happened. Then they just start rationalizing it away.

Also, your H does a piss-poor job of engaging in REAL conversation with you, listening to you, and putting himself in your shoes. He doesn't want to have to deal with your thoughts and feelings. He wants you to handle that by yourself. That is where OM got his window. You started talking to him about all the stuff your H just doesn't care to do. Your H has piss-poor communication skills.

Your husband is also extremely dismissive if your thoughts and feelings. He needs to believe you. If you tell him that OM was hitting on you and trying to get in your pants, your WH should believe you. The fact that he doesn't I'm sure concerns you that he doesn't really care all that much about you. I'm sure his attitude on boundaries and marriage concern you that he might cheat if he puts himself in the wrong situation.

Your marriage will continue to deteriorate if you don't address these issues. If you don't cheat, you will withdraw and he might cheat. Avoiding conflict in marriage is not the way to a happy marriage which is what your WH believes. He is not willing to do the WORK that is required in marriage. He just wants to keep his marriage care and maintenance free like it has been up to this point. Well marriages are like cares in that they all are fine when they are new, but if you don't maintain them properly, even the good ones will start to break down.

Why don't you ask your husband why he doesn't take you seriously? You are obviously having problems and he doesn't even want to deal with it.

fm, Jim just did a solid job of summing up why folks on the boards here are all over you about your choices, your thinking, your M - there are a lot of concerning factors, and you are in a position now to steer your M in a great direction before something disastrous happens.

FM:

This stuff is tuff.

Work on you.

MB isn't a cult. But it does have a mindset. And once you start to realize how much of it applies in ALL areas of your life, the better off you are.

You are recognizing the OM for what he is. That is the change in you since 6/29.

Your Husband doesn't see this, and may not. That is not your problem. That is NOT something that you can cure.

You can, however make plans with your H to spend ample time with him, so that YOUR M gets better.

Your Husband MAY make a choice in the future to cheat. And no matter WHAT you do, he can still make this choice. We can NOT predict the future. If YOU do the right things for your marraie, and protect your boundaries, and modify your behaviors to spend more time with your H, than you will make the window that your H may crawl thru much smaller.

So, continue working on yourself. Your going in the right direction.

LG

Yes, I agree. With (all of) your help I am doing better.


One of the ENs that Dr. Harley discusses is �communication�. This involves my speaking as well as listening to DH. No, he is not listening to me because (I assume) it�s easier for him that way. I see that.

I am here to save, preserve, maintain my marriage. I am NOT going to blindly follow MB principles right to divorce court. (I see quite a few people doing it.) DH can�t even listen to me talk about this with him in private, yet you insist that I send an NC letter to this OM, this will undoubtedly spread around DH�s job� Do you seriously think this is not going to cause DH a need to block it out/block me out? You see that he is good at blocking things out. Obviously, this would be an ill-advised strategy for me.

I need a plan, yes, Barbie. BUT I NEED my husband for whatever reason (because I choose to love him and I choose to need him). Sure, I�ll survive without him�probably won�t be as happy. But I am not going to risk losing DH trying to implement a plan�that many have implemented and STILL gotten divorced. I love much of what I have learned about MB; I have nothing bad to say about it.

BUT, I think some of you are failing to recognize that the plans need to be appropriately applied to fit the unique circumstances of each unique situation.

And another thing�you should ALL be writing to these new waywards with some respect, lifting them up, keeping them around to be healed, for their spouses and families to heal�IF you are going to be here �claiming� to want to help. I am embarrassed with how some of you write to them.

I want you all to be happy, too. I am so sorry for what the BSs have been through�but that IN NO WAY exonerates this rude unacceptable behavior of theirs. Not at all.

I know it is tuff, LG. It is getting easier every day. I am working on me. Thank you for the support.

It bothers me to see someone (like SW) getting beat up with no empathy�she came here for help. Yes, deliver 2x4s within reason�not to within an inch of her life. We should all be taking her depression concerns seriously. We should gladly take the opportunity to lift someone from this place�rather than sending her further into her he77.



Sometimes it seems like it.


The fact that it �[has] a mindset� doesn�t make it right to psychologically abuse people.


Okay, I�ll spend today trying to think of this plan you and Barbie are mentioning�


Well, I sure hope so.

Thanks, LG.

The basis of Marriage Builders and Dr Harley's Love Bank model is that just about everything we do affects our spouse either positively or negatively.

MB strives to maximize the positive and minimize the negative. Those things that have positive emotional consequences build and enhance feelings of being in love. Those things that cause or reinforce negative emotional responses result in lost feeling of being in love.

ENs, EPs, Love Busters, UA time, POJA and even boundaries as applied to protecting the marriage all flow from this one single premise.

Love can be built up and it can be destroyed.

Failure to protect oneself from falling in love with someone from outside the marriage damages the marriage in ways that can only be seen once the damage has been done. Actually falling in love with someone else damages the intimacy between husband and wife even if no sex ever takes place. If nothing else, it divides the intimacy and emotional commitment that is needed to keep the marriage strong. Anything that weakens it is bad for the health of the marriage.

FM, you can't make your husband understand this if he doesn't see it. My guess is that he has himself had some emotional response to someone else at some point and so has chosen to define cheating as having sex rather than as falling in love outside of marriage. That is only a guess, BTW and not something to take to the bank, but it might explain his reluctance to admit that attraction to people outside the marriage is something to be avoided.

The problem with not protecting against emotional involvement outside of marriage is that once begun this is a very hard thing to simply set aside and return to the marriage the way it was before. The emotional toll of just denying the feelings actually reinforces them because of the addictive nature of the feelings themselves and the association with the other person. Once the person becomes the source of those feelings and not simply what they do, the desire to continue those feelings is redirected to seeking out the person. You are experiencing this first hand.

Since your husband is not here, we can't tell him what to do and we can't tell you what to tell him to change his thinking on this. Unfortunately it is something he may only discover to be true when it is too late. But you CAN address the problem from your side of the fence all by yourself. It won't be an easy fix, but you can choose to defend your marriage and protect yourself from heading down the road that can lead to full blown physical adultery in spite of what your husband thinks or believes.

Yes, it will be a struggle and it will take some time, but you can overcome your infatuation with OM.

But others have already pointed out that OM is not really such a great guy. Great guys and good friends don't even try to seduce friend's wives. Predators do that, but friends do not. Your husband might not see this friend's actions as flirting or trying to seduce you away from him, but you have interpreted them as such and so the problem is still real and it has effected your marriage. You came here with a problem and that problem was related to your feelings for OM. You can choose to not go down that road or to follow your feelings which will eventually destroy your marriage.

What your husband does, or does not do or think, has no bearing on what you choose to do. This is one of the hardest lessons there is for many WSs to learn. What one spouse does or does not do in no way forces the hand of the other spouse to cheat or not cheat. It can set the table to make it possible and provide a vulnerability to it; it can set up the conditions that make an affair possible, but the choice is still in the domain of the potential betrayer to cheat or not.

Imagine that you find out that there is a beautiful flower growing in the middle of the road. You run across it by accident but once you see it, it brings you much joy and happiness. You begin to long to see it again and soon you allow yourself short trips into the place where it grows in order to soak up the joy that it brings you.

The problem with this flower is that it is growing in the middle of a busy highway and the only way to get a good look is for you to go out into traffic and lay on the ground to get a really good look at it. It brings you so much happiness just to see it that you begin to take chances just to get close enough to see it. At first you drive by it daily and are satisfied with just a glimpse but then one day you stop your car and take a closer look.

Soon you want to see even more of it's beauty and so you run out onto the road and look closer. You time your run so that you avoid the traffic. But the closer you get, the more it intrigues you and the fact that it is in a place where you can't really look at it close enough drives you to take ever bigger chances with your life.

One day you decide that you can just take the flower yourself, but you know that if you pick it, it will die and so you come up with an idea for transplanting it to a place where it will become your own.

You dart into traffic, digging frantically in order to free it from the pavement with enough of it left to move to a safe place. As you dig you keep one eye on traffic and move just before it runs you over. Since the drivers coming toward you don't see you until the last second, they really can't do much to avoid you, since there is a heavy fog that seems to linger in this place. They don't know you will be there and so they have no way to know that they need to be on guard in order to avoid your being run over.

You have nearly gotten the flower free and only a few seconds remain until it is yours. One final trip is all it will take and now your entire focus on this last attempt to get the flower for your very own garden. You don't hear the truck coming and you don't see the headlights because you aren't looking at traffic any more. The driver doesn't know you are in the middle of the road and can't protect you from being run over because his view of the road is limited by the fog he is driving in.

And then, as you free the flower from the crack in the road, taking it finally to be your own and knowing that you can enjoy it for the rest of your life, the truck arrives and your life is over...

And as you read all of this, you KNEW where it was going...

This is how affairs develop. Unless you choose to NOT take trips to see that flower and do something to move away from the addictive quality of what you have begun to find beautiful, the truck will arrive right on schedule and you will be run over.

You can still decide to stop looking for the flower. In fact, you can still decide to nurture a flower that is already your own, that already grows in the garden that is yours. It has lost some of its beauty due to neglect and lack of care and it might require some pruning to get back to what it was when it was first planted, but it can be even more beautiful and valuable to you because it is already yours and what you do with it will determine if it blossoms or withers away. If you keep looking for a way to gain that other flower, the ones you already own will be lost due to neglect and lack of care.

If you ever did get that flower dug out and got it to your own garden you would find that it couldn't be kept in the place you wanted it to be. It would still lure others to look at it and desire it and to make its beauty there own and some day, you would find that another had dug it up after you had transplanted it and it would be gone.

Or you would find that it required so much effort to sustain in the environment where it was never intended to grow and no matter how much effort you put in it was never going to be enough.

And all the while, the rest of your garden fell into disrepair, the weeds overtook the flower you already had and choked the life out of it until there was nothing left but decay and loss of its beauty.

Love and flowers can both be beautiful or they can be deadly. Where you find each is what determines which they will be.

Mark

I don't think that is correct. "Conversation" is on Dr Harley's list.

Speaking and listening are at the heart of getting ENs met, learning how to meet your spouse's, elimination LBs etc, but it isn't in itself an EN.

Okay, I am trying to consider these last few posts. Thank you.

Thank you, Mark, as always. Reading your posts makes me feel like I went to meditation or something.

Disclaimer: If you intend to be *harsh* to get your point across, it's going to be counterproductive. You'll be pleased to know that I have been contacted by the moderators... But, if you want me to be expelled, you know what to do...'cause I'm not going to just take it. I rather go out with a bang. Barbie has accurately picked up on my flair for drama.

I am not intending to hurt BSs or take up for WSs...in that other case, it just seemed like someone needed to say *something* (again). As LG stated, I should work on me. He's correct.

BUT if people come here implying that I am here to waste everyone's time, then I think I should stop wasting your time on me and post on other threads. Apparently, you want me to stay put...so PLEASE, I ask you kindly, don't bring that to my thread.

I stand corrected. It is conversation. Thanks, Cane.

Jim said:
"I can see why your marriage is having problems. First of all, your WH believes in very limited marital boundaries. He thinks you should just have the willpower to avoid affairs. He has no clue how hard it is to stop yourself once you have started going down that slippery slope. Most people don't until it's already happened. Then they just start rationalizing it away."

OMG- that is exactly my fear!! I knew all about MB principles prior to my selfish decisions!! But I chose to not protect my marriage by not establishing boundaries for my situation. Until you're there, you don't have a clue how easily it is. If you've read my thread at all- you'd my situation only took minutes before I crossed the line. Yes- it may not have been my DH line, at least b4 this, but it is a line I will not cross again! I can't change my H's pov on this- I can only let him know that I came dangerously close to so much worse and that if I allow that soft boundary, I could easily cross that line and my marriage would be over!

PKB

Now that's a great attitude!

No one WANTS to get you "expelled" ( ), but when you go around insulting BSs and offering wayward "advice", you WILL be called on it. But it's not just you, it's anyone who does it. How else does the MB message stay on track? A newbie could read an anti-MB post from you and think they're actually getting good MB advice. Of course, it'll be challenged.

FM, someday if you ever have to deal with the PAIN of betrayal by your spouse in your own marriage, you might just duck your head in shame for the way you've treated some people here at MB. But 'cha know what? We forgive you. We just won't let obviously bad advice go unchallenged.

BTW: 900 posts doesn't make you a vet..

Let me be VERY CLEAR here. The fact that D happens, and that many here are experiencing it or look like they are headed for it, is in no way a result of the plans here as you see it. It is a direct result of betrayal.

When D happens, it is because the BS is saying they will no longer stand to be terrorized by an unrepentant wayward, usually actively involved in an affair. They have no love left for the creature their spouse - the person who was supposed to love, cherish, and protect them - has become. It is in the best interests of the BS and the children where applicable to D.

The plans here do not inevitably lead to D, as you imply. Moreover, those who follow the plans here and still end up D'd will tell you - I would almost guarantee this - that they are better off than ever before. They have more self-respect, more integrity, more self-awareness. They tried, when no one required it of them, to salvage what many offhandedly dismiss as unsalvageable.


Loving what you have learned versus understanding and implementing it = two very different things. Do you love the warm fuzzy idea of it in theory? Yet, in practice, it's too hard or uncomfortable for you? If you loved what you've learned and had nothing bad to say about it, I would expect vastly different posts from you - not the posts where you attack the betrayed spouse, where you dictate that everyone has a choice about how they behave, where you minimize the very real pain of the most intimate violation of trust. Right now, all your posts show are a foggy, narrow-minded, self-centered, and unempathetic person ... A person in a M that has all of the signs of needing you to step up and safeguard it.


But fm, in all of your time and reading here, have you not realized that ALL INFIDELITY IS THE SAME? There's a reason why the "script" is used so frequently.

FTR, that comment of yours about unique situations is straight from the script.


fm, you are actually quite lucky. Some of the more "rude" posters have NOT posted to you, nor to any of the other recent WW arrivals. Frankly, for the most part, I see posters wanting to help, calling BS when they see it, and WSs getting a broad spectrum of approaches - all w/ recovery at the heart of them - to reach them, to help them get it, to pull them out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

What's with the seeming regression, fm? Or was the putative progress just contrived?

Hahahahahahaha Meggy! Alright, fine.

But it is beyond me, Meggy, how it is so wrong for me to empathize with a depressed disillusioned hurt individual. Alright�for analogy�s sake: suppose we call a �wayward� a dog rather than a pig. (Just go with me for a moment here.) Suppose that dog bit its master, Johnny.

A couple weeks later I see the dog laying in the street, yelping for help; it had run in the street and gotten hit by a car. It�s bruised and bleeding�like Johnny was a couple weeks ago. Am I going to take the dog to the vet or run it over a couple more times for its prior demonstration of poor behavior? Just a thought.



I was not trying to insult them. I do have a valid point every now and then�but you won�t even consider it.

I don�t have a problem with MB advice�just the way it is delivered at times. I truly don�t want the newbies to get the wrong advice.

Okay, I am going to say this; I was trying to avoid it but I hope it helps you understand that I have some understanding of their (BS) position. When DH and I were dating, BEFORE he became DH, we had issues with the whole virginity thing. He wanted it and I was holding on for dear life. So, on my birthday weekend, we �mutually� agreed to split up (meaning he said sleep with me right now or it�s over and I�m going to sleep with someone else. At that time, I did not sleep with him.) ON my birthday, two days later, he slept with another woman�an ex-girlfriend. DH called me a few days later as if nothing happened, claimed that he didn�t recall breaking up with me, trying to simply move on. He NEVER said happy birthday for that year�TO THIS DAY. He, of course, did not voluntarily reveal this info. to me; I badgered him until he confessed.

It�s not exactly the same as the BS in that we did have a breakup conversation�like many others we had before that. And I had never slept with him prior to his betrayal. But, in large part, it is the same thing. He didn�t even consider us broken up when he acted. Of course, he had no remorse because (as you know) DH just blocks out stuff. Besides, it was my fault for not giving him what he wanted. I was a teenager then who never had a boyfriend before: MORE young, MORE na�ve than I am now.

It took me feeling pressured disrespectfully out of my virginity, 2 � years of looking over my shoulders, spying, checking his email, phone messages, and all other kinds of stuff�until I realized I wasn�t getting rid of DH�to get over it. But when I decided that it was pointless to behave the way I was behaving (since he was here to stay), when I decided I didn�t care anymore�I managed to get over it. I have no feelings on the issue anymore. I don�t even know HOW we ended up together�except I thought I loved him. He is a different man than he was when we met; so I am glad that I stuck it out.

But it really hurt like he77 back then. If someone were to treat me like that today, as you see, I get all �up in arms� about �disrespect�. I am not trying to hurt BS; I know many BSs. I am just trying to say that �no matter how much you�ve been hurt, it doesn�t excuse your own rude behavior.�

**edit**

moderators note: if you have an issue with a post that violates TOS, please click on the "notify" button and let the moderators handle it. But do not continue to disrupt by complaining about other posters. Let the moderators moderate this forum!

I did not say that all of the plans inevitably lead to D (which I am sure you are aware). Some of it, obviously, is not working for some people.

Clearly, some aspects of MB I have implemented; some I have not yet. We all see that I am working with a fairly unique situation in DH�s responses to the whole thing. I am trying to act accordingly.

My husband is happy, okay�happy with me and completely oblivious to any EA�even though I have talked and talked and talked to him. I am trying to work within the parameters of my situation.

I am not minimizing it. I do not agree that it must drive one's life from that moment forth�perhaps for some people, it must, they cannot escape. ??? I mean that as encouragement to the BS; I do not mean that in any malicious sort of way. I know BSs who have escaped. And whether they do escape it or not, it does not justify wrongful behavior.

I appreciate those who have provided constructive criticism and helpful advice. I have never said otherwise. I show my manners and respect (unlike some people). So now posters know what works with me and what doesn�t�don�t come to me from the harsh/rude/disrespectful side of the spectrum. It�s counterproductive and leads nowhere but to hurt feelings on both sides and dismay. I�m not doing it intentionally just honestly expressing how I feel�JUST LIKE everyone else.

You said:

Now, do you mean I am aware that all plans don't lead to D based on my own situation? Or am I aware that you did not say such a thing? Your blanket statements above, from a semi-rant that comes across very much as conviction driven by emotion, suggest otherwise.


Are the plans not working, or are the parameters of the infidelity the problem? Perhaps the plans aren't working for these individuals because they have a particularly unrepentant wayward, they are not cut from cloth that absorbs and handles betrayal, their extenuating circumstances make the plans an even greater feat in the face of adultery... But wherein are the plans to fault for that? It's the infidelity. That's the nature of the beast.


This is true. However, it is no reason to not adopt all of the plans/concepts. There's a saying here, if you're betting on a horserace, you would presumably bet on the fastest horse. Well, MB is that fastest horse. Your DH's choices are his own. Yours are your own. He's not stopping you from embracing MB.

I'm not proselytizing MB to you. I'm trying to 1) point out you're responsible for your own decisions (so saying your DH isn't on board won't fly), and 2) your ire at MB earlier suggests a dissonance in your embracing of MB here and your true feelings.

2 things. 1: the magnitude of infidelity is such that it does define your life from here on out. 2: your advice comes across as lacking empathy and understanding of just how grave such betrayal is. It effectively says "Get over it."

Now, with regards to the WS: I'm not saying the infidelity is a scarlet letter forevermore, but it does and should continue to drive the FWS to never get close to their alien wayward version again. It does and should continue to drive them to earn their BSs forgiveness. It does and should continue to drive them to strive for what is right and good, to be a better person.

It does not define them, but it does motivate them.

With regards to the BS: ask any BS here, and I guarantee you they will say infidelity is NOT something you just "get over." You don't blink and it's all better, and you live daily - for the rest of your life - with the firsthand knowledge of being so closely betrayed, disillusioned, beaten down.

I can see where you say it's a choice how the BS decides to go forward after betrayal. However, there are a myriad of very real emotions that must be processed, and that simply takes time and understanding.


That part in red? That's a blatant untruth, and you know it. Don't falsely build yourself up to make others look bad, or to feel better about yourself. Just be honest with yourself. It will get you much further.

fm, what would you have done if no one was harsh with you? If we all just coddled you with our bestest pair of kid gloves, held your hand as you pined for OM, cheered you on for your posts to other incredibly foggy WWs that served to not break them free of their addiction, but to instead fuel it?

Would you understand with half the degree you do now the severity of infidelity? Or would it be "not that bad"?

Again, I would argue that people have been real with you, not overtly rude or mean-spirited. Also again, nobody is keeping score here, nobody is tallying how many beatdowns they've handed out in a day. We care about marriage building, plain and simple.

You feel attacked when no attack is intended. In my experience, when I have felt that way, it means I was being self-deceptive and foggy. I sat down and figured out why posts bothered me, and I adjusted my thinking accordingly. Lose the pride, take a chance to really see where everyone else is coming from.

A note to make sure my edit above was not missed:

If you have an issue with a post that violates TOS, please click on the "notify" button and let the moderators handle it. But do not continue to disrupt by complaining about other posters. Let the moderators moderate this forum!

thank you

fm,

I stopped posting a while ago here because I felt that you were not listening to me. That's fine, you have the right to do that, no problem, but I spent hours and hours on this thread because I felt a lot of similarities with my situation.
Therefore when barbiecat posted her comment that you were ignoring advice and remaining in a defensive, wayward mentality, I agreed silently with her because that is exactly how I felt but I didn't bother commenting because if you don't want to listen to me, fine, but I'll stop talking and spend my time more usefully elsewhere.

I just want to state one thing. I am one of those who is divorcing having applied MB principles to an A and I can absolutely say with certainty that they did not lead me to D. The reason I ended up there is because WH refused to give up his A. However, applying MB principles through Plan A (10 weeks) and then Plan B (4 months) helped me hugely and I would say was a big success for me. The advantages of the system for me were that it showed WH what his A would cost him and it helped me to feel good about myself that I really tried everything within my power to save my M. I can now walk away without regret and I really don't think I would have been able to do that without MB.
Also lots of people slapped me around at the beginning (see my original thread if you want to see that) when I couldn't see or think clearly and now I thank them for that. Caring for someone means telling them what it good for them even if that's not what they want to hear. People cared for me here and supported me through a horrific time in my life and for that I will be eternally grateful. barbiecat was one of those people but she and others didn't just support me by patting me on the shoulder and saying 'there, there'. They gave me real direction and a plan to follow so that I could recover peace and well-being and I think I would have had a good chance of recovering my M if WH had been a bit more emotionally aware.

As far as I can see, you have 2 choices, you can deal with the issues in your M or you can follow your DH lead and suppress them out of existence. It looks like you want to choose the second path and if that's what you want to do, go ahead but then I think MB principles won't be very useful. If you do decide to take the first option then you will find much that is useful here in MB but you might like to consider applying a little humility first.

my only buddy, Tully


hehehehehe.

Fullmoon. I do not post much anymore. Because I find that other people can usually say it better.
The only reason I posted was becase I read 15+ pages of reasoning with seemingly little movement in your FOG, (so to speak)

Tully, Mark and Ms. V (off the top of my head) are giving fabulous arguments as to how MB can help you.