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Originally Posted by Humbled_
My God, this describes my WW to a "T".


Humble...and you thought your "sitch" was so different then others laugh

rotflmao

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Originally Posted by Humbled_
Originally Posted by Pepperband
1. No previous adultery

2. Her adultery choice knaws her conscience and she has difficulty reconciling her behavior with her beliefs.

3. Physically suffers with a guilty conscience. Difficulty sleeping, eating, concentrating.

4. Has fallen head-over-heels "in love" with OM, which is often an old flame.

5. Has spiritual/religous beliefs she must ignore in order to "follow her heart".

6. Cries frequently but privately.

7. May turn to alcohol to numb her conscience.

8. Feels powerless and overwhelmed by her feelings of desire.

9. Hates herself.

10. Cannot look at her husband or others who trust her without feeling worse, so begins to avoid people who love her.


My God, this describes my WW to a "T".

I began this thread with some particular BH's in mind. In 2009.
Also, 2009, there were some atypical WW's posting on MB who were gaming the forum and gaming their BH.
I can't recall their exact MB name, but it was something that was shiny ... like sparkle or glitter ... something stupid and young-girly.
They "boo-hoo'ed" all the time, meanwhile, they were still seeing the OM(s).

This post was intended mostly for the BH's who can't seem to get traction with their WW's.

It is MY OPINION, not Harley wisdom, that there are some WW's who lap up Plan A like a cat loves cream ... but are unlikely to ever do any of the MB work to fix the M.
It is MY OPINION, not Harley wisdom, that there are some WW's that are less likely to be reformed.
But, how to determine which is which? Or, which is witch? crazy
This post was intended to help the BH's to determine ...." Is my WW typical, or not?"

It is MY OPINION, not Harley wisdom, that Plan A like a rock-star CAN help save the "run-of-the-mill" from herself.

And that includes exposure., Humbled.
Exposure, to a "run-of-the-mill" WW slams the brakes on her A and awakens her conscience.

Wait too long, her conscience becomes numb. her adultery get more and more entrenched.

So, there you are.
And, PUT A DAMN GPS on her vehicle! twoxfour



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Originally Posted by Pep
I can't recall their exact MB name, but it was something that was shiny ... like sparkle or glitter ... something stupid and young-girly.
They "boo-hoo'ed" all the time, meanwhile, they were still seeing the OM(s).


MutedSparkle and CohoSalmon


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puke MutedSparkle and puke CohoSalmon

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They did not care much for old P'Band. rotflmao

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I could not stand reading MutedSparkles (Sparky!) schtick. She duped a lot of good people here.

What a pathetic skit that was.

Last edited by chrisner; 09/01/10 10:59 AM.

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
And, PUT A DAMN GPS on her vehicle! twoxfour


rotflmao


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Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
Originally Posted by Pepperband
And, PUT A DAMN GPS on her vehicle! twoxfour


rotflmao

Seriously.
I wanna BOP him sometimes.
But, in a good way flirt

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I remember reading those two posters. What a bunch of losers. I guess they got wiped out in the purge? Maybe one good thing that came of that! smile


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Bumping this thread as it is very interesting.

My WW seems to fit be a mixture of the two categories but she is mostly cat. II, with some cat I tendencies. That doesn't give me much hope, but it is what it is.


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So darn many new BHs lately.

Bump for the MB guys.

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
The mark of a good person is their sense of guilt when they know they are doing something wrong.

Ditto!

.....oh wait, I wrote this.

flirt


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Well, now, this opens up a can of worms that I was debating (internally) for awhile. It actually leads to the possibly heretical statement below, because the "typical" WW has shown herself not to be a pursuer of extramarital sex (as with most WH's), but a pursuer of an "alternative romantic life" with an OM who can sell her on the concept that he's the "one", to enable him to get into her pants.

So the question before us is:

Is the application of a "Plan A" of radically reduced effectiveness when applied to a WW, as opposed to the application in the case of a WH?

(Disclaimer: Anecdotal summaries are the basis of my musings here, NOT clinical investigations!)

Prototypically, the WH of legend becomes dissatisfied with some element of his marriage (and yes, it's very often the frequency/quality of marital SF) and in many cases is not even aware of the extent of his dissatisfaction. When the opportunity presents itself of some action on the side, following the primal urge he partakes. If it is less than satisfactory, it is limited to the ONS variety. More exciting contact can move this to an LTA. But the WH is not ultimately seeking EN (except SF) satisfaction, so after D-day, an informed BW can "jack up" the EN-satisfaction efforts on her end, and with the disruption occasioned by serious exposure (and remember, OW is taking slams from this as well; most women don't care to be widely known as an easy piece), the WH can be led into FWH-hood fairly easily.

The typical WW on the other hand, has already rejected the form (amount? type?) of EN-satisfaction provided by BH, and seeks such from another source. If left undisturbed, such an EA will become the EA/PA that has proven to be so resilient to destruction - as HFD (success), Stretch (in process) Andy, Liam, LM, LiT, etc, have shown. Plan A, requiring as it does increased and improved EN-attention by the BH, appears to come across as "phony" to most WW's, and - and this is the startling factor - WW's tend to "resent" those efforts of BH's to "win the WW back", in opposition to accepting WW's getting her EN's from OM. ("It's too late for us!", "I never loved you!" and the classic, "Why can't you be happy for me?" puke)

Also working against the standard Plan A attack is that very often OM is NOT severely damaged by the public revelation that he's not of the highest level when it comes to respecting marital boundaries. He's often single, divorced, or separated, and a nuclear exposure merely advertises that he's good enough to seduce, and satisfy long-term, a married woman, even at the cost to her of her marriage. Looks awful good on the "who's up next?" resume!

In summary, then, the dual arms of Plan A are less effective in turning a WW away from "the dark side".

  • The WW has already found a "sure" source of EN-satisfaction, and will be hesitant about abandoning that for the "unproven" new commitment of BH.
  • Exposure may have a sizable impact on WW (assuming she's not totally sold on the "But don't I deserve happiness....." crap), but will remain unleveraged by any corresponding effect on OM.
But.........what can we do with this knowledge? What enhancements can be added to the Plan A recipe to "kick it up a notch" for its application to WW's?

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Hmmm, seems a lot like a question I asked a while back when I asked how can a BH EFFECTIVELY Plan A a WW.

I don't think I got too many practical, specific suggestions. I could be wrong. But I recall the actual substantive answers to my question were lacking.

It will be interesting if you get any answers.

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
But the WH is not ultimately seeking EN (except SF) satisfaction, so after D-day, an informed BW can "jack up" the EN-satisfaction efforts on her end, and with the disruption occasioned by serious exposure (and remember, OW is taking slams from this as well; most women don't care to be widely known as an easy piece), the WH can be led into FWH-hood fairly easily.

MOST affairs conducted by WH are because the OW is meeting the EN's of admiration and conversation. That is how these affairs start and then they move onto SF. Those are generally the top ENs. ONS are very rare. A WH is just as addicted, if not more than than the WW. And it is not just sex.

Secondly, Plan A is LESS EFFECTIVE for betrayed wife than a betrayed husband for a couple of reasons. [keep in mind that Dr Harley tells women to jump to Plan B right away, for this very reason] Men are not attracted to a woman who is competing for him. Women ARE.

An important thing to remember is that a BS usually can't meet the needs of a WS anyway. So it makes no sense to assert that one can meet the needs better than the other. It is universally true that it is almost impossible to meet the needs of a WW and a WH. They are in a FOG; they are high on an affair. The best a BS can do is promise to meet their needs in the FUTURE if they end the affair and avoid lovebusters.

IMO, the most effective part of Plan A is the stick, especially in affairs with a WW. This shows her a BH is willing to fight for her and stand up for their marriage.

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The typical WW on the other hand, has already rejected the form (amount? type?) of EN-satisfaction provided by BH, and seeks such from another source. If left undisturbed, such an EA will become the EA/PA that has proven to be so resilient to destruction - as HFD (success), Stretch (in process) Andy, Liam, LM, LiT, etc, have shown. Plan A, requiring as it does increased and improved EN-attention by the BH, appears to come across as "phony" to most WW's, and - and this is the startling factor - WW's tend to "resent" those efforts of BH's to "win the WW back", in opposition to accepting WW's getting her EN's from OM. ("It's too late for us!", "I never loved you!" and the classic, "Why can't you be happy for me?" puke)

Again, meeting EN's is downright impossible because the WS, whether man or woman, is emotionally attached elsewhere. It is like trying to meet the needs of a falling down drunk. Pretty impossible! It is best to focus on taking away the BOOZE first so that the WS can sober up and THEN he can meet her needs.

We have many BH's on this board who have been a success using Plan A just recently, Reynolds, helpfordad, Northwood, BTInTrouble, fightforlife etc. So, I know it can work.

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Also working against the standard Plan A attack is that very often OM is NOT severely damaged by the public revelation that he's not of the highest level when it comes to respecting marital boundaries. He's often single, divorced, or separated, and a nuclear exposure merely advertises that he's good enough to seduce, and satisfy long-term, a married woman, even at the cost to her of her marriage. Looks awful good on the "who's up next?" resume!

That can work for or against any Plan A, whether a BH or BW. One really can't make such a generalization and I will tell you why. We have had instances of a single OP who lived with his/her parents. Exposing to the OP's parents effectively killed the affair. On the other hand, I can point to affairs where the OP was married but their BS was such a wussy that exposure to her made no difference. There are such different dynamics in every case that is hard to say that one holds more hope than the other. I suppose overall it is easier to kill an affair where both sides are married, but we have effectively killed affairs where they were not.

So no, I do not conlude that Plan A is less effective for a WW than a WH. That has not been my experience in 10 years on this board. I would say they are just about EQUAL. What is not EQUAL is how a BS approaches the affair. It is much, much harder to get a BH to do much to save his marriage. It is a lot of work just getting them to do anything. And often, when they do do something, it is more of a "check the box" than a pro-active approach.

And I want to add one more thing. I wrote Dr Harley about the belief that "Plan A works 15% of the time." I had been telling people that based on a couple of quotes on the weekend forum. He says I have misinterpreted his comment. He was saying that 15% of affairs end upon DISCOVERY. He is going to write a newsletter about the success rates and the differences between an affair involving a WH and a WW in the near future.

In short, what Dr Harley has said in the past is that Plan A is more effective for a BH than a BW because a BH is much more likely to win back his WW. A BW is much LESS likely because most men don't like being chased.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
[/list]What enhancements can be added to the Plan A recipe to "kick it up a notch" for its application to WW's?

The most impactful Plan A's I have seen where a BH won a WW back looked like this:

1. aggressive, immediate nuclear exposure to everyone

Men have a tendency to do a half assed exposure because they fear the WW's anger. They hope to do a check the box approach with minor exposures that have little impact. This is the equivalent of bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight. It is just enough to piss off his opponent so she will come after him with more vigor. A wimpy exposure is a disaster because it avails nothing and the anger of the WW just scares the BH into a deeper submission

2. Vigorous stated defense of children and legal rights

These men express a willingness to sue on grounds of adultery, maintain possession of the home, primary custody of the children, etc. They effectively KILL the fantasy of the WW to replace the BH with ease when they pledge to fight.

3. a pledge to NOT be the "friend" of the WW if the marriage fails.

A WW wants to be "friends" with the BH in her fantasy so she will not feel as guilty for putting it to him. You would be surprised at how important this aspect is to the foggy minded. It causes them to have second thoughts and somewhat disrupts their fantasy.

4. raise as much hell as possible in the affair

Most OM are wimps and don't want any trouble. When the BH raises holy hell with him, he is much more likely to run like the cur dog he is.

That is what is the most likely to kill the affair and save a marriage, in my experience. This approach often kills the affair and assures the WW that the BH will fight for his marriage. It is important that she knows this. The timid BH, the one who never talks about her afffair and allows her tromp all over him just earns her CONTEMPT and shows that he doesn't care very much. A complacent approach shows a lack of caring.
In short, being a WIMP is not attractive and just makes the loser OM look MORE attractive.

But if you will go to the various threads around here, you will see that this rarely happens. Rather, I spend most of my time just trying to convince BH's to even fight. Most just want to roll over and play dead man. I posted all day to one such BH this weekend and could not get him to even call the OMW. He followed NONE of my recommendations. After numerous posts, he just replied he "couldn't get ahold of her."

While my tactics are no guarantee, trying to get a BH to take decisive action is much, much harder than it is with a BW. I often just give up on most BHs.

And Neverguessed, I don't have to tell you, of all people, what our culture has done to American men. They are not used to standing up for anything so this can be a very hard sell.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Ya know, Tex, we make a great pair, when it comes to slicing open the wound to get at the underlying puss!

Not sure if you planned it this way, but "snippetize" your four steps and you get:

...aggressive, immediate... Vigorous....pledge to....raise as much hell ......

NONE of those terms as descriptors are often applied to the "jelly-kneed" version of "male" currently residing in the Western world. (Remember my "The End Of Maleness" thread?)

I am going to save those four mandates in a word file - and as soon as we get the next "Oh, dear, she's catting around and I don't know what to do..." newby, I'm gonna copy-and paste it into a response without further comment.

(But seriously, what took so long - almost three hours? - for you to come in guns-a-blazin'?)

But where things seem to get off-track is AFTER the affair is dead, it is sadly much more likely for a WW than for a WH to STILL not return whole-heartedly to the marriage. Having tasted the (yes, fog-clouded) forbidden fruit of EN-satisfaction by the OM, WW's resist the alternative of attempting to permit the BH to asssume that role. Stubborn? Spoiled? Distrustful? Dunno, but the alternative chosen by increasing numbers of WW's, after the affair, is not reconciliation with BH, but estrangement from BH, as the cause of separating WW from OM.

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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
But where things seem to get off-track is AFTER the affair is dead, it is sadly much more likely for a WW than for a WH to STILL not return whole-heartedly to the marriage.

It is because the BH is so relieved the affair is over that he calls it a day and kicks back and has a beer!! He thinks his job is DONE and it has only just begun. He lowers the bar so low that she is just living down to his standards. The BH most often goes back to wimpy-ville and allows the WW to lead their "recovery" on her terms. As a result, she is rightly under the impression that she will be returning to DEADSVILLE to live with Mr Wimp and is completely disillusioned by the prospect of staying in a dead marriage.

The solution is to a) set the bar for recovery very HIGH and b) sell her on the prospect of building romantic love in the marriage. These guys need to set her down and tell her how it is going to be and what it will take to KEEP HIM. I tell them to tell her "I WILL NOT STAY IN A LOVELESS MARRIAGE." When that is his opening statement, she begins to get the idea that the goal is romantic love, not the same dead marriage that existed before the affair.

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(But seriously, what took so long - almost three hours? - for you to come in guns-a-blazin'?)

I was on a hot date with my sweetheart.. flirt


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Dr H said only 15% end the affair. That means 85% of BH never get to the part where his WW ends the affair. So most are not kicking back, having a beer, and thinking his job is done. 6 out of 7 never get to that phase.

I did almost everything on that list. The only thing I didn't do that I should have was filed for divorce myself and sought a custody hearing.

My XW did the filing, and sought custody.

I kept the house, but little good that did since she had no intention of returning.

The steps are good, and they are probably the best chance. But even that chance is slim.

On D-Day, from my hospital bed no less as I was recovering from surgery when I got confirmation of the affair, I started a wildfire of exposure. Her parents, my family, and the day I got home it continued with contact with the OM's wife, the OM himself the grandparents, and so on.

It extended to both workplaces, his alumni association. So just short of a billboard.

The joint checking account and all her credit cards were halted, her gym membership revoked, and the locks were changed in the home within 24 hours of me learning the news. That was good trick since I was still recovering from the operation. So going to the store and the bank wasn't easy, not to mention dragging out the tools and maneuvering to change the locks, getting on the ladder to clear the codes from the garage door opener and re-program it for only the remotes I had, etc.

Didn't matter.

As I said, I should never have let her take my child. I was too naive to believe she was having an affair. Once I knew, I took swift and sure action. But the damage was already done and she had our child and the support of her family.

There were no friends of the marriage. Not even our church acted on behalf of the marriage. Oh and of course our pastor was part of the exposure.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Dr H said only 15% end the affair. That means 85% of BH never get to the part where his WW ends the affair. So most are not kicking back, having a beer, and thinking his job is done. 6 out of 7 never get to that phase.

No, he said that 15% end their affairs upon discovery. Many others end in Plan A and Plan B. [the guys I noted above killed their wive's affair in Plan A] I have asked Dr H to give us an estimation of how many he thinks end in Plan A and Plan B. I disagree with you that "chances are slim." That is not my experience here.

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As I said, I should never have let her take my child. I was too naive to believe she was having an affair. Once I knew, I took swift and sure action. But the damage was already done and she had our child and the support of her family.

You know, this is exactly WHY I tell newcomers to first RULE OUT an affair. So often there is an affair in the wood works. WE are almost always right. The biggest problem I have with this is convincing newcomers to even CHECK. Most don't believe us and refuse to snoop. They dismiss us as "biased."

And I agree that men should not EVER allow his WW to take their children from the home.

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There were no friends of the marriage. Not even our church acted on behalf of the marriage. Oh and of course our pastor was part of the exposure.

That surely sucks. It makes all the difference when there are friends and family members who a) know right from wrong and b) are willing to stand up for the marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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