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1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.
2. The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.
3: The Rule of Time: Give your spouse your undivided attention.
4. The Rule of Honesty: Be completely honest with your spouse.

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There is a reason that "protection" is at the top of the list.

You can make lovebank deposits and get yourself into "the black" ...

... and then completely wipe out your efforts with a mean fight = lovebuster, which puts her lovebank into the red.

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Since this is your 3rd marriage ... and you've been divorced twice ... you better PAY ATTENTION to the MB "rules".
Because, you've just started school.

Read the entire site, not just the forum.

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The thing is ... in each of your marriages, you have been a "renter"


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Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Renters are pretty lazy when it comes to fixing things and making repairs.
Renters tend to think:


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"This is too hard."
"This is taking too long."
"This is a lot of work."
"What about me?"

Renters avoid conflict - but once they are IN a conflict, they fight to win. Or, they leave.


This will be a LOT of work.
This will take time.
Longer than you imagine.
You will need to function in ways that may seem uncomfortable to you.




Here's what you ought to require of yourself:

You require a PLAN.
You require courage.
You require delayed gratification.


Frankly, I'm not yet convinced you're got it in you ....

Convince us.
And yourself.







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Brian,

I'm a FWH and my marriage is recovered, sort of. I say this because you will never get the marriage back that you so carelessly threatened. You can get a new marriage though. And if you are lucky enough to have a W that wants to repair the marriage, that is willing to travel this painful road with you instead of just walking. It would certainly easier for her to walk. You cheated on her more than once. Your track record should scare the heck out of any thinking person. Why would she think that you are going to be different now? What is your plan?


You can overcome this and have a truly intimate and romantic marriage. One where you both have boundaries when dealing with members of the opposite sex. Where you both do the things that Pepper said above.

The MB program is pretty simple really, but it isn't easy. And you are going to learn the difference between the two if you stay here and try to reconstruct your marriage. I hope you two make it.



What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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Brian, how did you end up at MarriageBuliders?

I usually don't try to say much to WHs in certain situations. People with substance abuse issues. Or homes where there's physical abuse. Or people who've had multiple affairs, where the BS knew about the first affair, and the WH somehow went & did it again. I just don't feel I have a lot of insight into those dynamics.

But for whatever it's worth, I see 2 things that need fixing here:

1) Your marriage -- meaning how you treat your wife, how you assess her needs, how you & she communicate with one another about each others' needs. For starters, you need to roll up your sleeves and get up to your elbows in Extraordinary Precautions, to give your wife at least some sense of respite from the fear of you betraying her again. That's just a first step, but it's one you need to sustain. I'd start by making a list of all the things you're doing & will do to buttress your marriage against the risk of your contacting any of these past OWs, and transparency measures to give your wife confidence that you're not initiating any new inappropriate contacts with new women. What's on that list of EPs?

When you're able to have a calm discussion, you two need to sit down and ID each others' emotional needs, and discuss them calmy. And then make plans to try to meet the top 5 ones. This can't happen unless you find a way to spend time together. Your wife may not be up for that right away. Your job in that case is to make it clear to her that, when she's ready to talk, you'll be there for her. You can't make your availability for her conditional on an immediate response. And your UA time doesn't have to be (and in fact, shouldn't be) all or even mostly occupied by talk of affairs (yours or hers) -- you need to do some fun things together, too.

This "Undivided Attention" time is not optional. You have to make it happen somehow. It was probably the single biggest, most concrete positive change that my wife & I made after my affair. We are both busy career people, with two kids and lousy commutes, but our marriage counselor (drawing from the book "Surviving an Affair" as her text) insisted that we make it happen.

2) The second thing you need to fix is yourself. Why has the idea of an affair not been out-of-bounds, why has it not been outside your boundaries of what's acceptable conduct? I understand how being on the road makes it tougher. Not that it's an excuse in any way, but when you're physically separate from your spouse, it's very hard for her to meet a number of your important emotional needs -- not just the sex, but admiration, and recreational companionship, for instance. And it also has made it hard for you to meet a number of her needs, I'm sure.

If you're lonely when you're without your wife, tell her so. I was lonely a lot. Lonely when my wife worked nightshifts. Lonely when we worked in separate ministries in our church instead of together. Lonely when she was off doing stuff with the kids while I was off doing yardwork. Lonely when I was on business travel in Russia. Lonely on my long commutes on the subway. Even lonely when we sat in the same room, her on her laptop and I on my computer, instead of interacting with one another like we should have been doing. But I was too prideful to admit this loneliness or even to articulate it to myself. Instead, I took the lazy man's way out .. didn't go out and say "Gee, I think I'll have an affair," but when another woman happened to be willing to push the envelope of opposite-sex friendship with me, I left every door open for an affair, because at that point, it was easier than taking a hard look at what was missing from my marriage. I suspect that this pride & laziness has been an issue for you, too. You've got to drop that pride & let her feel that you need her, that she's your first choice, that she's the one who can best be the companion that you want & crave.

Brian, you sound to me like you want to do whatever it takes to make your marriage work. As Comfortably_Numb has suggested, your goal has to be to make the marriage better than it has ever been before. Not just like it was before your & her affairs. You've seen enough of affairs to know that they don't get you where you want to be... right? What I wonder is how much patience you've got. Because there's a natural tendency for guys like you & me to just want to get things "fixed" and move on. But you can't move forward any faster than she's able to move forward. Eat up each chapter of "Surviving An Affair." Read it cover to cover. Preferably with your wife. Discuss it together if you can. It won't be easy, but you'll each learn from it. My wife & I are each on-record as saying that we think this book may well have saved our marriage.

Definitely ditch that counselor. Her advice that you & your wife should sleep in separate beds is horrible. (One day, at what I later came to see as the outset of my affair, I sat in a cafe listening to my OW unburden herself about how she & her H slept in separate beds. I even said to her at the time that this didn't sound to me like a good idea! Probably, it was part of OW's sick damsel-in-distress act to let me in on this info; but it was equally sick & out-of-bounds for me to have sat there & listened to such confidences that were none of my business. That's why today I viscerally hate the phrase "separate beds" and everything it implies. I just can't imagine it leading you & your wife anywhere good.) If the counselor is giving this sort of advice, you'd be better off taking the money you're paying her & lighting it on fire instead. The 7 seconds of heat & light you'll get will be more beneficial to your marriage. Now, I would not suggest being in your wife's bed uless your wife agrees to this -- you should ask your wife where she wants you to sleep, which is what I did -- but a MC who's actually encouraging you to be separate isn't good medicine.

Have you & your wife got any couples with whom you are friends as a couple? Sometimes, if such friendships exist, they can be helpful in providing some accountability, IF the other couple is rock-solid and IF they each have the best interst of your marriage at heart. But you can't gin up such friendships from scratch, so if there aren't already such people in your lives, then this probably isn't an angle worth pursuing at this time.

Brian, I'm guessing here with you, more than I usually do. Again, I don't understand the thought processes of guys who make affairs a repeat activity. I don't know what you get out of sticking the palm of your hand onto a hot burner a second time, unless you feel you didn't get burned enough before. I wonder whether your wife didn't let you off the hook so easily that you figured you could get away with it again? (On the day I confessed my affair to my wife, right after I begged her to keep me, she told me "Do it again and you're out on your [censored]." And I knew she meant it.) This is not to blame your wife in any way whatsoever for your affair -- that's all on you -- but it might be worth her while to come around here as well. I don't necessarily expect her to take the suggestion from you right at this time, but if there's a way you can slip it into the conversational mix, might be worth something to you both.

Looking at it from her side, I don't get how you can stick your wife's palm onto that same hot burner a second time, unless you somehow didn't feel & hear her pain the first time around. Didn't you feel it? Didn't you carry her pain in your heart? Well, that ship has sailed. Your job is to feel that pain of hers now. I hope you can do it. But hope isn't a plan for you. What's your plan, Brian?


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Small update smile

Donna and I are reading "His Needs Her Needs" together, enjoying holding hands, and messing with our kids together. A few more smiles, a few less frowns. One day at a time right now.




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GloveOil and all

We have not yet fully laid out our plans. Currently Wife has access to cell, email, facebook and laptop in general. I have suggested key loggers to her, but am not sure, (or wish to know,) if she has actually installed one, I am hoping she has. OW is in MT while we maintain our IN residence. Considered changing my cell number in case OW decides to break the no contact herself.

As far as accountability, I am seeking a "Stephens" minister through our church and also staying in contact with our pastors.

FYI, our 10th anniversary is 9/16. I am going to have a talk with W father this weekend and have already talked to pastors about renewing our vows. W and I agree this would be a good way to start our new marriage.

Patience has not been one of my better virtues, but so far, it has paid off. As many have pointed out, this is not an overnight fix, but one which will be worth all the patience it takes to stay on the right track.

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Update:

Good; Wife and I are still together and accountability partner is working out well

Better; intamacy and dialogue are starting to be much more in depth

Best; Well now I can tell you everything!

Bad; Wife spent a week in an acute care mental facility after informing me of suicide plans

worse; W admitted to having an affair for the last year with a co-worker

Plan; LOVE my wife through it, after all, she stayed by my side.


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Brian, do they still work together? (Your wife & the other guy).

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