Many couples come to Dr. Harley with GIANT amounts of conflict, but I've never seen him try to tackle those things first

THIS is the basis of everything else on MB. It is at the HEART of the whole program and is the one piece that makes everything else work.

(snip)

NOTHING in MB is more important than this fact.

Whatever we do, it affects our spouse.

Mark

Because it is more important to avoid hurting each other than to find a resolution to a conflict. What we do to solve the problem is more important to the relationship than whether or not we actually find a solution.

If the Love Bank is a bucket ANY leak makes it difficult to fill the bucket and we must work harder to accomplish it. Big leaks need to be fixed pretty quickly but unless we continue filling the bucket in sufficient volume to stay ahead of the leaks, the bucket drains.

The fastest way to fill the bucket is by meeting the top Intimate Emotional Needs and this can only be done through UA time. If we can keep the level above what is required to prevent Withdrawal, and leave our spouse at least open to using his or her Giver as well as their Taker in negotiations, the conflicts themselves can be resolved...

Or not...

But either way, the bucket remains full enough to prevent it from going empty.

Mark

ETA; Back to work...See ya...

I remember when I first came here as a WS, one of my very first respondents said that the best thing I can do is to let my H go and that I don�t deserve him. Or something like that. My H asked me not to pay any attention and keep going. So I have.

I�ve been accused a few times of not giving MB advice, but I don�t think my inputs or that of others should be dismissed out of hand.

I believe that MB is the way to go if you wish to recover a marriage when infidelity is the issue BUT:

1. I don�t believe a short marriage with no kids and adultery involved is worth saving. There�s too many people in the world to put up with this kind of abuse, IMHO.
Well, you said it best - 'in your opinion.' I'd like to see what Dr. Harley's opinion is on this. I don't remember reading anywhere that people without children should just end their M after an A. Saying this to a new poster removes hope for them.

2. Marriages with kids are worth the attempt to save but not at the expense of rights as a father or parent. By this I mean that a BS needs to make sure they are protected and are ready to fight the legal fight if necessary. I followed a path of appeasement and a mistaken belief that I was in a �unique� situation and I gave away everything. It cost me dearly. I don�t want other betrayed spouses here to suffer the same fate.
Here's the thing: you followed a certain path that ended up not being in your best interest while not following MB concepts for ending the adultery. It's good to let a poster know that they should find out what their legal rights are, while following MB concepts for ending the adultery.

3. I believe in strong legal defensive action while applying MB Plan A/B. Mortarman did this and saved his marriage, but did a great job of protecting himself from losing custody of his children. Many here criticize legal action by a BS when a WS is rolling the ball in that direction. I believe you fight fire with fire, but many say that�s not in the MB spirit. Too many men lose custody because they are under the delusion that the WW will �wake up� and that this is a phase she�s in.
Yes. We advise posters to understand that their WS is in a fog. I can't count the number of posts I've read, explaining to BS's that their current adulterous spouse is not capable of 'waking up'.

I was one of those. I don�t want a father to fall into that trap.
I haven't seen anyone say that protecting your legal rights isn't in the MB spirit. Can you point me to those posts?

4. Each marriage needs to be taken by its own merits.
Yes. This is exactly why a M shouldn't end just because there are no children. It needs to be taken by its own merits.

If a person is married to a serial cheater or to someone with DEEP psychological scars, then the odds of any plan succeeding are low. If there are no kids in the equation, why stick around to rescue that kind of damaged person? Life is too short for that.
Serial cheaters who show no remorse are obviously poor marriage material, and it probably is in the BS's best interests to leave that situation. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. However, I've seen way too many posts advising newbies who are younger or have no kids to just walk away from the M. Their BS may well be salvageable. That can't be determined from one or two posts.

5. I love seeing a BH either stand up for himself legally and succeed there or implement exposure and Plan A/B so effectively that an affair is killed. Humbled is a great example of that and PSUBIKER did a great job protecting his legal rights.
I haven't seen Humbled since we advised him about exposure and no contact. The last I heard, his WW was still in contact with her OM. Am I missing a post?

6. Some of us were married to really messed up people. I was devastated to lose my marriage and my wife, but leaving me was one of the best things she ever did. I was freed from taking care of an overgrown child with deep psychological scars. Sharing this doesn�t counter MB. It simply provides a BS with a story of someone who moved on with life and was grateful that the previous marriage didn�t work because it was a life sentence had she come back. I�m glad she never did. When a BS is in the depths of despair and depression, it helps to hear stories of personal recovery and some reassurance that divorce is not the end of the world.
Your sitch is a good one for a BS to read, but not in the context of advising them to immediately dump their spouse because 'here's what happened to me, therefore it will happen to you.'

Again, I believe in MB as a means to recover a marriage, but the issue of infidelity is so complicated that dismissing alternative views is shortsighted. I think MB works when normal people stray. I don�t think any plan works when a person is so psychologically flawed that they get absorbed in their own little narcissistic existence which will never be changed until that person seeks help for him/herself.
IMO, you are brushing WS's with far too broad a brush. Not all waywards are psychotic. Who dictates who is flawed beyond redemption? ALL waywards are absorbed in their little narcissistic existence! And, like all good addicts, they usually need help overcoming that. MB explains the best path to follow in order to do that. IMO.

My dad was a serial cheater. He has cheated on everyone he�s been with. My mom is with a good man now. Why would I want her to expose herself to being let down again if she were to ever return to my father? What do you tell a BS who has an ex return years later and they started to move on?
This is your mother's sitch, and good for her to have found a place of peace and happiness in her life. She's made her decision. I don't see where she needs to be told anything.

Even SH doesn�t advocate saving all marriages. So diverse viewpoints aren�t bad to have.
That's correct. My point is that it is a dangerous tack to take, making the pronouncement to a poster who is newly arrived that they need to dump their spouse because they don't have kids.

Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.

One of the most remarkable discoveries of my career as a marriage counselor is that marriages can thrive after infidelity. I would never have guessed it, based on my own reactions. My wife, Joyce, let me know early on that if I ever had an affair, she would not divorce me, she would KILL me (maybe that's why I have taken such extraordinary precautions to avoid it). My own reaction to an affair by Joyce would be as drastic. But I wouldn't kill her, I'd just never see or talk to her again.

That's the way almost all couples feel about infidelity before it actually happens. They can't imagine living with someone who's been unfaithful. But what people think they will do, isn't what they usually do in this case. Surprisingly enough, after the dust settles, most couples try to reconcile.

I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.

Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.

Having experienced an unfaithful wife myself, I would NOT attempt to use MB to recover from an unfaithful wife again. I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.

If someone doesn't respect me enough to honor their vows and tell me in clear, unambiguous terms they are not happy, then I don't want them on my team.

1. I don�t believe a short marriage with no kids and adultery involved is worth saving. There�s too many people in the world to put up with this kind of abuse, IMHO.

I believe Dr. H actually agrees with you on this...

I also agree with Vibrissa that we should gear our comments to what the poster actually wants. If they don't want to save their marriage, then help advise that. If they want to attempt to save their marriage advise that, but using MB techniques and principles. Stick as closely to what you believe MB to say for that sitch. If you are wrong, you will have learned something through the discussion. When you are right, you will have helped a lot of people, not only the poster you posted to.

there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.

there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.