Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 10 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 10
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,058
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,058
Originally Posted By: MrsW
Many couples come to Dr. Harley with GIANT amounts of conflict, but I've never seen him try to tackle those things first


Because it is more important to avoid hurting each other than to find a resolution to a conflict. What we do to solve the problem is more important to the relationship than whether or not we actually find a solution.

If the Love Bank is a bucket ANY leak makes it difficult to fill the bucket and we must work harder to accomplish it. Big leaks need to be fixed pretty quickly but unless we continue filling the bucket in sufficient volume to stay ahead of the leaks, the bucket drains.

The fastest way to fill the bucket is by meeting the top Intimate Emotional Needs and this can only be done through UA time. If we can keep the level above what is required to prevent Withdrawal, and leave our spouse at least open to using his or her Giver as well as their Taker in negotiations, the conflicts themselves can be resolved...

Or not...

But either way, the bucket remains full enough to prevent it from going empty.

Mark

ETA; Back to work...See ya...

Last edited by Mark1952; 09/16/10 02:21 PM.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,437
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Originally Posted By: CWMI
The whole failure to POJA and the belief that what one spouse does SHOULD NOT affect the other was at the very core of our marital problems.


THIS is the basis of everything else on MB. It is at the HEART of the whole program and is the one piece that makes everything else work.

(snip)

NOTHING in MB is more important than this fact.

Whatever we do, it affects our spouse.

Mark


Thanks, Mark.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,025
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,025
Originally Posted By: Mark1952
Originally Posted By: MrsW
Many couples come to Dr. Harley with GIANT amounts of conflict, but I've never seen him try to tackle those things first


Because it is more important to avoid hurting each other than to find a resolution to a conflict. What we do to solve the problem is more important to the relationship than whether or not we actually find a solution.

If the Love Bank is a bucket ANY leak makes it difficult to fill the bucket and we must work harder to accomplish it. Big leaks need to be fixed pretty quickly but unless we continue filling the bucket in sufficient volume to stay ahead of the leaks, the bucket drains.

The fastest way to fill the bucket is by meeting the top Intimate Emotional Needs and this can only be done through UA time. If we can keep the level above what is required to prevent Withdrawal, and leave our spouse at least open to using his or her Giver as well as their Taker in negotiations, the conflicts themselves can be resolved...

Or not...

But either way, the bucket remains full enough to prevent it from going empty.

Mark

ETA; Back to work...See ya...



Thanks Mark [emphasis mine]


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,179
Late as usual, but just had to lol at my friends.
LOL!


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 550
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 550
Just thinking out loud.
I remember when I first came here as a WS, one of my very first respondents said that the best thing I can do is to let my H go and that I dont deserve him. Or something like that. My H asked me not to pay any attention and keep going. So I have.
I sometimes post to one of the local forums in our country and sometimes link my answers to MB site. And I havent received a single response regarding those links, but I keep doing that and wont save my breath, because I believe in MB and want them to have the opportunity as well.
We have lived under Soviet regime and have been free for many years now, but the regime and all the suffering has taken quite a toll on our thinking and behaviour in general. Weve become very suspicious people. It doesnt mean that we know better, not at all, we just have to say no first, then try to understand what others agenda is (everybody has to have an agenda) and then perhaps, when this is clear and danger is over, _consider_ saying yes. This also includes taking all which comes from US with a bit of reservation. I just believe that this is one of the reasons why people over here arent flowing to MB site in masses.
As it comes to screwing up our marriages we are as professionals in that as any other.
I dont know whether other programs work or not, because I havent tried them. I suspect that sooner or later I would have still landed here.

Last edited by Niitse; 09/17/10 06:11 AM.

Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Niitse
I remember when I first came here as a WS, one of my very first respondents said that the best thing I can do is to let my H go and that I dont deserve him. Or something like that. My H asked me not to pay any attention and keep going. So I have.


I am glad you did stick around. It makes me cringe you were told such a thing when you arrived. Good for you for sticking it out!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Originally Posted By: helpthelostdads
Ive been accused a few times of not giving MB advice, but I dont think my inputs or that of others should be dismissed out of hand.

I believe that MB is the way to go if you wish to recover a marriage when infidelity is the issue BUT:

1. I dont believe a short marriage with no kids and adultery involved is worth saving. Theres too many people in the world to put up with this kind of abuse, IMHO.
Well, you said it best - 'in your opinion.' I'd like to see what Dr. Harley's opinion is on this. I don't remember reading anywhere that people without children should just end their M after an A. Saying this to a new poster removes hope for them.

2. Marriages with kids are worth the attempt to save but not at the expense of rights as a father or parent. By this I mean that a BS needs to make sure they are protected and are ready to fight the legal fight if necessary. I followed a path of appeasement and a mistaken belief that I was in a unique situation and I gave away everything. It cost me dearly. I dont want other betrayed spouses here to suffer the same fate.
Here's the thing: you followed a certain path that ended up not being in your best interest while not following MB concepts for ending the adultery. It's good to let a poster know that they should find out what their legal rights are, while following MB concepts for ending the adultery.

3. I believe in strong legal defensive action while applying MB Plan A/B. Mortarman did this and saved his marriage, but did a great job of protecting himself from losing custody of his children. Many here criticize legal action by a BS when a WS is rolling the ball in that direction. I believe you fight fire with fire, but many say thats not in the MB spirit. Too many men lose custody because they are under the delusion that the WW will wake up and that this is a phase shes in.
Yes. We advise posters to understand that their WS is in a fog. I can't count the number of posts I've read, explaining to BS's that their current adulterous spouse is not capable of 'waking up'.

I was one of those. I dont want a father to fall into that trap.
I haven't seen anyone say that protecting your legal rights isn't in the MB spirit. Can you point me to those posts?

4. Each marriage needs to be taken by its own merits.
Yes. This is exactly why a M shouldn't end just because there are no children. It needs to be taken by its own merits.

If a person is married to a serial cheater or to someone with DEEP psychological scars, then the odds of any plan succeeding are low. If there are no kids in the equation, why stick around to rescue that kind of damaged person? Life is too short for that.
Serial cheaters who show no remorse are obviously poor marriage material, and it probably is in the BS's best interests to leave that situation. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. However, I've seen way too many posts advising newbies who are younger or have no kids to just walk away from the M. Their BS may well be salvageable. That can't be determined from one or two posts.

5. I love seeing a BH either stand up for himself legally and succeed there or implement exposure and Plan A/B so effectively that an affair is killed. Humbled is a great example of that and PSUBIKER did a great job protecting his legal rights.
I haven't seen Humbled since we advised him about exposure and no contact. The last I heard, his WW was still in contact with her OM. Am I missing a post?

6. Some of us were married to really messed up people. I was devastated to lose my marriage and my wife, but leaving me was one of the best things she ever did. I was freed from taking care of an overgrown child with deep psychological scars. Sharing this doesnt counter MB. It simply provides a BS with a story of someone who moved on with life and was grateful that the previous marriage didnt work because it was a life sentence had she come back. Im glad she never did. When a BS is in the depths of despair and depression, it helps to hear stories of personal recovery and some reassurance that divorce is not the end of the world.
Your sitch is a good one for a BS to read, but not in the context of advising them to immediately dump their spouse because 'here's what happened to me, therefore it will happen to you.'

Again, I believe in MB as a means to recover a marriage, but the issue of infidelity is so complicated that dismissing alternative views is shortsighted. I think MB works when normal people stray. I dont think any plan works when a person is so psychologically flawed that they get absorbed in their own little narcissistic existence which will never be changed until that person seeks help for him/herself.
IMO, you are brushing WS's with far too broad a brush. Not all waywards are psychotic. Who dictates who is flawed beyond redemption? ALL waywards are absorbed in their little narcissistic existence! And, like all good addicts, they usually need help overcoming that. MB explains the best path to follow in order to do that. IMO.

My dad was a serial cheater. He has cheated on everyone hes been with. My mom is with a good man now. Why would I want her to expose herself to being let down again if she were to ever return to my father? What do you tell a BS who has an ex return years later and they started to move on?
This is your mother's sitch, and good for her to have found a place of peace and happiness in her life. She's made her decision. I don't see where she needs to be told anything.

Even SH doesnt advocate saving all marriages. So diverse viewpoints arent bad to have.
That's correct. My point is that it is a dangerous tack to take, making the pronouncement to a poster who is newly arrived that they need to dump their spouse because they don't have kids.


Last edited by maritalbliss; 09/17/10 08:25 AM. Reason: spacing for clarity

D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.

Having experienced an unfaithful wife myself, I would NOT attempt to use MB to recover from an unfaithful wife again. I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.

If someone doesn't respect me enough to honor their vows and tell me in clear, unambiguous terms they are not happy, then I don't want them on my team.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.


Dr Harley has said that most people say they will divorce their spouse but when it really happens they change their mind. He doesn't know how he would feel if it really happened.

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
One of the most remarkable discoveries of my career as a marriage counselor is that marriages can thrive after infidelity. I would never have guessed it, based on my own reactions. My wife, Joyce, let me know early on that if I ever had an affair, she would not divorce me, she would KILL me (maybe that's why I have taken such extraordinary precautions to avoid it). My own reaction to an affair by Joyce would be as drastic. But I wouldn't kill her, I'd just never see or talk to her again.

That's the way almost all couples feel about infidelity before it actually happens. They can't imagine living with someone who's been unfaithful. But what people think they will do, isn't what they usually do in this case. Surprisingly enough, after the dust settles, most couples try to reconcile.

here

Even so, it is entirely a personal decision whether or not to save a marriage after an affair. With 2 interested parties, it is very possible to achieve a happy, romantic marriage after an affair. MANY people here have done so. So when people come here for help and WANT to save their marriage, we can show them how to do that.

Quote:
I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.


But they are not here for your personal experience. People come here for help saving their marriages. And that is what we have to offer.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
Dr H has already said what he would do if Joyce would betray him, he would divorce her.

He knows what the program entails, knows how well it works and yet his stated position is that he would divorce his wife if she's unfaithful.

Having experienced an unfaithful wife myself, I would NOT attempt to use MB to recover from an unfaithful wife again. I use MB to work on my marriage, but I would not advise anyone to save a marriage to an unfaithful spouse given my experience with such an experience.

If someone doesn't respect me enough to honor their vows and tell me in clear, unambiguous terms they are not happy, then I don't want them on my team.


Maybe because he knows that they are living his own successful program, so if she strays there's no path for recovery for them? I mean, where would the founder of MB go, right?

I would never advise a poster to end their M, or save it, based on my experience. I would advise them within the context of their experience, and what their goals are.

FWIW, I would use MB to save a M. Once. If my H were to be unfaithful to me again, I would have to leave him. Because where would we go to recover the M? We're already at MB and using the concepts (quite successfully, I might add)! Once is enough. That's enough pain for one person to bear.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,490
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
1. I dont believe a short marriage with no kids and adultery involved is worth saving. Theres too many people in the world to put up with this kind of abuse, IMHO.


I believe Dr. H actually agrees with you on this...I know it's often recommended around here that if a BS has no children and it's a short marriage that they should run for the hills.

However I have posted to BSs who are in this sitch because they DO want to try to save the M and that is their prerogative and they have gotten plenty of help here on MB.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 7
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 7
Originally Posted By: MarriedForever
I believe Dr. H actually agrees with you on this...

I don't know Dr Harley's views on this, but I have read a few posters who are coaching with STEVE say that he told them that they should be aware that the WS is unlikely to go back to the marriage. The absence of kids makes it particularly hard to pull back the WS who has left home. However, Steve will still help them if they want to try.

He is reputed to have said the same about the prospects for Plan B where there are no kids, or they have flown the nest: Plan B is unlikely to work.

Having read this (from other posters about their coaching, not in print from Dr Harley), I have conveyed this message to new posters. I try to do so carefully and not bluntly state that they have no hope in hail and should have had kids rather than being self-centred!

Some advice is hard to hear, but should still be given if it's based in the Harley's experiences with coaching.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
V
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,993
I think the best way to go about it is to present the information we have: what recovery takes, it's dangers and pitfalls, the struggles and hurdles to overcome. We should give an accurate portrayal of the path ahead and let the spouse decide what course of action is best to take and then provide them with advice based on that decision.

So telling someone without kids and a short marriage or a marriage to a serial adulterer what their particular difficulties will be is essential. It is up to them to decide their path.

I think an excellent demonstration of this is Gerkaguard's story. Early on he wanted recovery. Those posting to him to cut his losses were a distraction and hindrance to him because that wasn't the path he wanted to walk at that time. After a time, however, he decided to change his path. Reconciliation no longer became desirable, and so the tone of his advice changed to meet his needs.

So I guess - at least for me - it is important to lay out the knowledge and experience I have for someone else so they can get as clear a picture of their options as possible and allow them to chose what they want to do. Then advise them on how to attain that goal (which may include giving advice that someone doesn't want to hear but is necessary to achieve their desired goal). If the goal shifts, then the advice shifts.


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
The key is two interested parties, and based on what Dr H has said and what Steve told me working with me, winning an unfaithful wife back is nearly impossible.

So having workrd the program with the professionals to the typical outcome with a wayward wife, my advice still stands.

I might give about 10 milliseconds for a wayward wife to confess, repent and start calling Marriage Builders before I threw her out of the marital home based on what I know now.

Anything short of that constitutes a dis-interested party. I'm not interested in working with someone not motivated to be there and build a marriage.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,240
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,240
I always find it interesting when people say this about WW. I often wonder then why DrH chose the story of Sue and Jon to put in his SAA book. I know that it is said that it is HARDER for a WW to come back but it isn't IMPOSSIBLE.

I also agree with Vibrissa that we should gear our comments to what the poster actually wants. If they don't want to save their marriage, then help advise that. If they want to attempt to save their marriage advise that, but using MB techniques and principles. Stick as closely to what you believe MB to say for that sitch. If you are wrong, you will have learned something through the discussion. When you are right, you will have helped a lot of people, not only the poster you posted to.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 171
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted By: Scotland
I also agree with Vibrissa that we should gear our comments to what the poster actually wants. If they don't want to save their marriage, then help advise that. If they want to attempt to save their marriage advise that, but using MB techniques and principles. Stick as closely to what you believe MB to say for that sitch. If you are wrong, you will have learned something through the discussion. When you are right, you will have helped a lot of people, not only the poster you posted to.


I totally agree.


aBetterMe

Me 33
DH 35
Together 14 years, married 12
Two "furry children" (one cat & one dog)

MB has changed me and changed my life. I am becoming a better person for it, and building a better marriage. MB principles can truly help you create the love and the life you want.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,617
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,617
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.


I believe that it is POSSIBLE that someone interested in building a better M could choose to have an A....Maybe they did not realize it was possible to save a M that they felt was in the dumps...but MB shows that it is very possible.


BW me-41
WH -39
DS - 9
married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered
DDay aug 2007
found MB dec 2007
Moved out april 2008
still seeing OW
Plan B

Okay I fixed the ages, it was looking screwy. smile
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
there is a great gulf between possible and typical outcome. Since it's dependant upon two who are interested, the typical outcome is failure.

After all, would someone interested in building a better marriage choose to have an affair?

Of course not.

The program requires TWO interested and willing to work partners.


I agree it takes 2 interested parties to recover from an affair, but Dr Harley has stated that 65% of marriages don't end in divorce after an affair. Its not impossible to win back a wayward wife. Happens often around here. Dr Harley sure doesn't call it "impossible" and that hasn't been my experience on this board.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
Really? That's funny becquse everything I've read and experienced personally with respect to wayward wives is the she has already emotionally divorced her husband long before her affair. She simply hasn't yet informed him of his status.

That's not the actions of someone looking to build romantic love with her husband.

The BH has little chance as long as she remains closed to him, and only a small minority open up to their husbands, including those like me who applied MB under the direction of Steve Harley

Page 7 of 10 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 10

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 33 guests, and 70 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mwid, Shepherd, alg, Pelican89, SRL
71,672 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,526
Posts2,322,549
Members71,673
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5