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Hey John,
First of all let me say I'm sorry you have to be going through all this, the pain of a BS is a very painful place to be......
I can see you are a careful person, thinking all your options out from every angle.
I think you understand the fact that your marriage cannot heal as long as your wife is still in contact with her OM, that relationship on any level has to stop for life.
If it doesn't every time she sees him or hears his voice, she will be right back into the emotional connection she had with him.
John then you have to work on filling each others needs and making quality time for each other. You two have to be open and honest about anything and everything.
She must be totally transparent with you, she must give you all her passwords to any kind of communication devices she has............You will need to check on her .
As far as the OM's wife is concerned do you think it's fair to let her live her life not knowing what kind of man she is married to, doesn't she have the right to have all the facts so she can make the best decision for herself and her family.
Your wife will not like it but to bad she gave up that right when she crossed the line, she will get over it.........
My guess the OM is shaking in his boots thinking you will tell her...........
I think you need to think long and hard about what your plan will be, I might even go as far as seeing a lawyer seeing what your rights are, separate finances until things are better. Your wife needs to know that you will not accept this under any circumstances.......
When they train you to be an officer they make sure you know that you have to be honest and live your life with integrity otherwise there are consequences.....
No one can tell you which path to take but I can tell you from experience that the guidelines here and the plan the vets set out here work, my husband also had an affair with a co-worker, I exposed as well.......when the affair was out in the open it wasn't as much fun for them. I life was hell for a while, they still worked together for a few months, she finally left the work place.............my recovery really didn't start until that happened


BW 56
WH 57
Married 25 years, live together for 2, dated 2 years before that.....
DS 23, DS 25
D-Day Nov 23/09
NC Mar 1/10
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John, I'll say it again:

Failing to expose the affair because you're putting the affairees' careers & reputations before the marriage is bass-ackwards as long as your main goal is to save the marriage.

And allowing them to stay in contact is bassackwards, as long as your goal is to securely end the affair.

I'd rather be hardline than bassackwards.

Remember, I had an affair. I tried to get out of it while staying in contact. I have some firsthand knowledge about that works & what doesn't. (As do these other folks who've been mostly on the other side of the equation.)

I hate infidelity. I hate what it does to people. You're suffering & what you're suffering isn't fair. You don't deserve it. Your wife (if/when her fog clears) will suffer too, and while she'll deserve it, that doesn't make it any easier. If your marriage tanks, your children will suffer.

I'm not getting a plugged nickel for spouting off here. I have to get on a plane for overseas in 8 hours, and I've got other stuff to do. I just don't want to see your suffering drawn out.

No one's saying there aren't other options. You can pick & choose the approaches that you're comfortable with and still maybe luck into a good outcome. You can play Russian roulette with 3 or 4 bullets in the cylinder & still win, if you're lucky.

Letting the affairees remain in contact, and minimizing exposure, is putting rounds into the cylinder. But go ahead, give it a spin, and pull the trigger. Your marriage might win. I hope that happens for you. But I'm not gonna water down my advice just because you're not comfortable with it. I'll not do you that disservice.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Hi John

you have to expose!

My WH had an A 6 years ago with my 'closest friend' after the first year I found out and he begged to keep her as just a friend. Begged me not to tell her H and the following 5 years were a living h**l as he openly took her and her daughter out for days, and were having what I thought was an EA.

I hated every minute of it but when I tried to end it he would get so distressed that I gave in again and again.

In Nov I found out that it was always a PA. I was devastated and immediately exposed to all her family. Her H was also wandering and has now left. Oddly we did the NC letter before I found this site but was happy we had done it.

We are trying to put things back together, how much easier it would have been if I had found this site 5 years ago, we might be recovered by now, instead I have to go back to the devastated place and build over.

If you don't want to be in this place, tell OMH at the very least.

Blessings


Me 50
WH 52
WH in A 6 yrs in total, last 5 yrs JGF (Not!)
DD final 1.12.10
NC letter sent 3.12.10

Working at being the best I can be, the rest is up to you.

He is still a plonker, but he is my plonker!
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Hello all. Sorry to be so late on the promised update, but here it goes.

First, on exposing to the OMW, I've have said that I think it's the right thing to do, and I do plan on telling her. I'm trying to get her contact info now. It hasn't been easy. No FB and a very common name.

I had my first session with Steve on Monday. I ran down everything I've said on here, also pointed him here, and his approach is a little different. His opinion is that limited contact for work purposes, while not ideal, is permissible for now. He says this because it should be temporary (OM will be transferring soon).

As far as exposing at work; not right now. He likened it to dealing with a drug addict. You've got a tool bag full of all sorts of ways to get that addict to kick the habit. You use the tools you need, in escalating order, to get that addict into rehab. He said that since she seems willing to work on the marriage and doing what's necessary to recover, damaging her career would not be a helpful tool. Yes, if the marriage is recoverable, she'll get over the damage done, but you don't want to make the road too rough that she doesn't want to take the trip. He did say that it might become necessary in the future.

I have read SAA (kindle), and my wife requested a hard copy to read. It arrives today.

I understand that for every hope I have, there is someone here that once had the same hope only to be disappointed. I'm not going into this blindly, and I do appreciate all of the advice. Please keep it coming. I will not let my guard down, and I am taking the necessary measures to ensure she stays on track.

Again, thanks for the continuing advice and support,
John


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John,
Keep following Dr. Harley's advice and I'm sure you will be ok. As far as getting the OMW's contact info, I'm sure your wife can get it from the command emergency recall list. They will have spouse information and home phone numbers. This would also be sort of a test of your wife's contrition and commitment to your marriage. If she is defogging, she will understand why the OMW deserves to know, and will get the info for you.

Good luck.


ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
Now just living and loving again.
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Originally Posted by Unfettered
John,
Keep following Dr. Harley's advice and I'm sure you will be ok. As far as getting the OMW's contact info, I'm sure your wife can get it from the command emergency recall list. They will have spouse information and home phone numbers. This would also be sort of a test of your wife's contrition and commitment to your marriage. If she is defogging, she will understand why the OMW deserves to know, and will get the info for you.

Good luck.


Thanks, good idea. I'll try that avenue, but seeing as they don't work for the same office and are not stationed at the same location, I don't think he would be on a recall list that we would have access to. I'm not aware of a service wide list.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by JohnW
[There are other sources of information out there, and they do not take such a hard line approach. They don't say "you must follow this advice, or she will cheat again".

Then why are you here? No one is forcing you to stay here and listen to our crap. The door is wide open! laugh

ML, I thought after a week, this post wouldn't piss me off so much. I was wrong. I came here for education and advice. Not to be dictated to and cast off if I didn't take said advice verbatim. I have never said this advice was crap, and I have always thanked you all for caring. I guess I no longer deserve that care and attention because I questioned some of the advice.

Thanks banghead


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John, then I would say we are even. It's pretty rare that folks come here and ask for advice and then rudely dismiss the freely given advice. We are all peers just like you, with families and careers and don't have to post to you. We post out of a sense of caring, after all. You won't get much help here with that kind of attitude.

I am willing to put all that behind us and start off on a new foot.. I hope you can do the same.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I didn't think I was rude, but if that's the way you took it, I apologize. Really.

Everyone took one line out of the following quote and jumped all over me for it.
Originally Posted by JohnW
And I agree with it all, to a point. The problem I have is everyone saying that unless you follow what worked for them, exactly to the letter, you are doomed and she will repeat. I haven't said that I know better or am better equipped to handle this than anyone else. I haven't said that I will not consider exposing the A at the workplace. I don't make decisions out of fear and intimidation. I won't let my WS bully me into going one way or the other, and I won't let anyone here either. There are other sources of information out there, and they do not take such a hard line approach. They don't say "you must follow this advice, or she will cheat again".

Again, thank you for all of the advice. I assure you, it's not falling on deaf ears.


I said I was appreciative for, and listening to the advice, but I wasn't going to make any rushed decisions. My thinking was that different cases call for different levels of reaction, and you don't have to go nuclear every time. I was basically called an idiot for thinking that. I had no less than 10 people tell me I had to expose at work, or she would just cheat again. Now that I have reported back that Steve doesn't think it's a good idea, everyone is silent. Is it because you are tired of me questioning the advice, or you all don't want to question Steve's advice.

I don't want to start off on a new foot. This is how I live life; I make well, thought out decisions. I am no where near being out of the woods here. I want, and need, as much advice as I can get. If I am to be cut off again for trying to tailor that advice to my individual case, then so be it. Again, not being rude, just telling you where my thinking is.

I hope there are no hard feelings. I know I don't have any.
Thanks,
John


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Originally Posted by armymama
OK, I need to clarify a previous post. The steps to ending an affair are very specific and very similar for most couples. They consist of exposure, extraordinary precautions and building a romantic love for the married couple. Maybe that sounds like a cookie cutter, but it has a proven track record for working when followed.

The MB program for creating a romantic loving marriage is a framework for couples. People have different emotional needs and the MB program is a method of identifying these needs and meeting them.

AM

AM, I wanted to take the time to personally thank you for all of your post. I've thought of them, and reflected back on them several times over the past week. They were thoughtful, well written post that did cause me to take some things into further consideration.

One thing I wanted to clarify was my "cookie cutter" statement. I was not saying that the MB program was a cookie cutter program. What I was attempting to convey was that you can't take steps 1, 2, 3 etc., and apply them the same to every case. Specifically, the only part of the program I had a problem with was exposing at work. I am fully on board with the rest of the program, and my WW starts reading SAA this weekend. If she thinks it's as revolutionary as I do, she will join me in my next session with Steve.

Again. Thank you for the time you took to try and help me.
John


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Originally Posted by JohnW
I said I was appreciative for, and listening to the advice, but I wasn't going to make any rushed decisions. My thinking was that different cases call for different levels of reaction, and you don't have to go nuclear every time. I was basically called an idiot for thinking that. I had no less than 10 people tell me I had to expose at work, or she would just cheat again. Now that I have reported back that Steve doesn't think it's a good idea, everyone is silent. Is it because you are tired of me questioning the advice, or you all don't want to question Steve's advice.

The advice that we gave you is standard Marriage Builder's best practices. Steve is taking a different strategy and that is ok, he is a therapist and we are not. And I sure hope it works for you. But it doesn't mean posters here gave you bad advice. We gave you standard MB advice that many of us have received from DR BILL HARLEY.

And you can take it or leave it. But it is rude when posters take their time and energy out of their lives to give you help and you dismiss that advice by saying other sources are less "hard line" or we are too cookie cutter. That attitude won't get you too far around here where there are LOTS of people who need help and few people available to help.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Wow. Ok then. Well, I never said any of you were wrong. I was never only looking for advice that fit my "pre-formed" opinion. I don't believe I lashed out to others like I was lashed out on.

I came here not wanting to expose to the OMW or the workplace. I now know that I must tell the OMW and I might have to expose at work. That's advice that I took that went against my opinion. Yes, Steve took a different approach. That's all I was saying; that there might be a different approach out there. I was only trying to say that no one wanted to take the nuances of my individual case into consideration. For that, people lashed out against me.

I'm sorry I wasted so much of your time. It appears that I must follow your advice, to the letter, or I am not worthy of it. I have no hard feelings, am I'm sorry that you do.


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Originally Posted by JohnW
Thanks for all the words of advice and encouragement. I'm not ignoring the advice or choosing not to deal with it, I'm just trying to come up with a plan that best suites my concerns and needs. The problem I'm having is the cookie cutter approach to this. That all WSs are the same and need to be dealt with in the same exact way. My WS starts IC today. I have been reading SAA and I have an appointment with Dr. Harley on Monday.

On telling the OM wife; I know it's the right thing to do. I've known it from the start, and I intend on doing it. Mr Wondering, you hit the nail on the head with the three possible outcomes of telling her. It's pretty much what I came up with.

On workplace exposure; I'm not there, yet. My WS starts her new job on Monday. She has to go to school for the promotion shortly there after. Nothing there is guaranteed right now. Not that it will ever be. It's not just about protecting her, it's about protecting my family. I can't say that things will work out and we'll stay together. If we split, I need her to be able to provide. A weak reason? Sure, but it's something I've considered.

From the reading I've done, so far, it's pretty clear that if you rebuild the M and prevent the mistakes that lead to the A in the first place, you can squash the chance of it happening again.

I haven't been on here much because I'm traveling. This weekend we're going away for my son's birthday, so I won't be on at all (maybe a bit on Sat). I'll check back in after my appointment with Dr. Harley.

Thanks,
John

And this was the first post that I mentioned cookie cutter. If you notice I said I know telling the OMW was the right thing to do. The only thing I had a problem with was the workplace exposure. Everything went downhill from there, but now you're saying workplace exposure is contingent upon several factors. Are we just mis-communicating on this or what? Go back and look. The only thing I stuck to was the workplace issue.


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Originally Posted by JohnW
I'm sorry I wasted so much of your time. It appears that I must follow your advice, to the letter, or I am not worthy of it. I have no hard feelings, am I'm sorry that you do.

I appreciate the apology. But please don't misunderstand my position or that of others. The issue is not that you didn't follow our advice to the letter but that you dismissed the advice you didn't like. Everyone has a "different approach;" but as long as the underlying principles are the same, it is all good.

It is all good, John, hopefully we can move on.. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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JohnW:

******edit****


Anyway. You should expose to the OMW. Its the right thing to do, and something that helps your marriage recovery the most. That extra set of eyes makes all the difference in the world.

Exposing up the command structure is something to be done when needed. Keep working with the SH on this.

Every officer who has an inappropriate relationship with an enlisted person, is FIRST AND FOREMOST, concerned about thier career. Especially as they get close to retirement. Throwing away a girlfriend is alot easier than $30-50k a year for the rest of your life.

Exposure to h! is WIFE, will insure that in many respects, he stays away from your W.

I don't happen to agree that you riding a roller-coaster for the next three months until the OM transfers to a new unit or position, and living in fear of your W continuing to hoop up either on-line or via the phone, is a good course of action. But if your committed to it, then see what happens.

You state that your WW seems remorseful, and doing the right things. Sometimes, this is a cover for the A. "If I do these things, then JohnW will not interfere in the A anymore...." Sometimes, it IS true. She is committed to this. This A of your WW took 4 long years to develop. It may not have had ANY traction for the first thee years. Then it accelerated. It is tough to end them, when they have that type of record. It is possible, and may be happening in your case. Stay vigilant, and verify. Be careful of the "I just needed CLOSURE" type of activiy on the p! art of your spouse.

You are two-three weeks past ! D-Day. The WW starts to feel that the OM should be doing SOMETHING more right now, to "PROVE" that she mattered to him. That is the most crushing thing to the wayward. (I have been there...) That all *THIS* is for nothing. All that she risked, isn't worth anything to the OM. And she just has to get *something*, anything from the OM to show her that she wasn't just a piece of meat. The first couple weeks, WW can keep this need under wraps, then the anger, and the desire to get to "closure" starts to spill over.

I can recommend NO BETTER time than now to get in touch with the OMW. You and her can compare notes to make sure that a secret meeting isn't being planned. (OMW tells you that the WH has a meeting 3 hours away, "in the other direction" from your city, and WW states that she has local training meeting today. BINGO!, BUSTED!)

WW has all the info you need to get in touch with OMW. She has the home address of OM. She! has the home phone. She may even have the OMW's cell phone number. Ask her for it. I know it is tough for YOU to get this info. But your WW has it. Its her "precious" right now. Time to take it away. She will be terrified of what might happen if you contact OMW. Oh Well. OTOH, If she wasn't afraid, it would mean that she isn't in contact, and this is good. When you ask for this info, you get it, and CALL right then. Do NOT WAIT. This isn't to threaten her with. It is NOT to allow her to contact OM, and have him put the spin to his BW, that "a crazy guy might contact you regarding me and his WW, he's crazy!"

If you do not get OMW right away, don't worry. You have seen how your WW is reacting. And that will tell you LOTS about where she is in this recovery. You can try again later. A letter with her to contact you at your office, is a good way to start the process as well.

Sorry you have to be here. You seem to hav! e a WW on the right track. Time will tell.

LG

Last edited by JustUss; 02/21/11 04:22 PM. Reason: add text
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Originally Posted by lousygolfer
**EDIT**
I can't tell whether that is a dig at the people here who show up day after day to do the hard work of helping someone through a crisis.

Posters usually give "cookie-cutter" advice because they are following the writings of Dr Willard Harley. There is nothing else they can reasonably do.They are not privy to the telephone consultations with Steve Harley and they are not trained MB marriage coaches. If they do not give the "cookie-cutter" advice which for Dr Harley has provided a template in his articles here, the result will be a cacophony of "I think you should do this" babble of the kind that characterises other forums.

If this poster is getting advice from Steve then he should of course take it. However, I hope that your post is not intended to malign the help he was given here.

Last edited by MBsurvivor; 02/20/11 04:01 PM. Reason: removing quote

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JohnW:

My experience helping thousands of couples survive an affair has led me to the conclusion that exposure is one of the most effective tools in ending this tragedy once and for all. An affair is not only a very painful experience for the betrayed spouse, but it's terribly misconceived. It fails 95% of the time. When the light of day shines on it, it's more likely to be seen for what it is -- the biggest mistake a person could ever make.

At first, exposure usually seems cruel from the unfaithful spouse's perspective. It looks like vengeance. But after an unfaithful spouse clearly sees the damage the affair has done, and has come out of the "fog," that spouse is usually thankful that someone had the sense to expose it.

There's another reason that an affair should be exposed. You might ask yourself the question: If you had not known about your wife's affair, would you have wanted the wife of her affair partner to tell you about it, even after the affair was over? If you would have wanted to know, you should tell her.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

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Dude... it seems you want to expose, then you don't. Stop "[censored]-footing" and decide. Personally, I think FULL exposure is the only way. What if this guy keeps doing it to others? He has to be reprimanded in some way. Their bad behavior needs to be addressed.

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Hello Jim..

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