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My4Loves #2513061 05/26/11 09:17 AM
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itstoughlove:

Sorry for the long delay, but I wanted to wait until posting again after a joint therapy session with my husband's therapist.

My concerns about my husband being a sex addict (like his brother) have been greatly reduced. My husband's doctor doesn't offer a sexual addiction diagnosis, not because he doesn't think it may not exist, but because there is considerable debate within the psychiatric community concerning it.

Even so, he doesn't think my husband has exhibited the two key indicators of an addiction (my fear is an addiction to sex): increased tolerance or withdrawal. Instead, the therapist said WH has used low-quality, anonymous sex (and drinking, and porn) to fill a void of insecurity but didn't display a need for more; and hasn't exhibited any symptoms of withdrawl. There's not pathological lying (outside of affair), no narcissism (outside of affair). He is working on a compulsion to view porn (not defined as addiction, he says; WH has slipped up twice in six months and deals with it right away.) Therapist says WH is not pathological and can be treated. So, no excuses for bad behavior in the future, at least from therapist's perspective.

Re: the extraordinary precautions and emotional needs lists. We do understand them fully. I mentioned only the biggest/most important EPs earlier while posting quickly. The list is signficant and gets additions/subtractions -- mutually agreed upon and adhered to -- as needed. We've been doing this for six months, so we understand some EPs are absolutely necessary; others can be modified based on my comfort level; others will likely be added as they come up. In fact, my freak out has made me insist again on a post-nuptial agreement. We're doing it. He's already done many EPs on your list: genuine remorse, full access to all electronic communications, STD test, NC letter, no travel/nights apart, complete honesty of history. 15+ hours/week of UA time is always our minimum these days.

I feel that our boundaries are solid ... it's just that time will tell if he continues to meet them. And I'm gaining more confidence every day that he will; and I now feel that his therapist is definitely equipped to give him the right guidance, too.

ENs. We have those down, too. I didn't look up WH's list when posting earlier 'cause i just wanted to finally get my concern out there. Going too fast! The "spontaneity" one really is "recreating together." My husband loves to be busy, to "do" and "go." Music, dining out, movies, theater. But always with me. So having refreshed my memory on his, they are: Admiration, healthy hot sex, respect, recreating together, and physical attraction.

I hope this explains more. I'm not making any excuses for my WH. So far, though, he's been nearly perfect at meeting all these requirements (except for the two porn slip ups). His therapy goals are to save his marriage and heal himself, and everything his therapist has him thinking about and doing dovetail nicely with the MB's philosophies.

My whole post really wasn't about his behavior since DDAY. It was about resolving this issue of his brother being diagnosed as a sex addict and the very radical treatment he's getting, and my husband NOT being diagnosed as one after finding out about him propositioning another woman in the midst of his one-month affair. But now, I'm comfortable with the apparent dichotomy in diagnoses.

I'm confident we are getting the right help and setting clear boundaries that will safeguard our marriage. I'm confident that as time goes on, we'll stick to the plan and thrive. We've got all the tools we need to be successful. If he decides to cheat again, it will be with eyes, mind and heart fully aware ... and then nothing will save him.


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SP;

I would say that while he probably is NOT a sex addict, his sexual behaviors are in the category of abuse (termed like alcohol abuse or drug abuse versus addiction).

EP's will begin to eliminate the threat of sex outside of the marriage and use of pornography.

The final nail in the coffin will be building a loving, romantic marriage in which all his needs for sexual fulfillment are met.

However, due to his abuse of sexual activity, he will likely have to realign his appetite to marriage. This will make eliminating porn ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE.

As someone who at one time turned to porn to attempt to fulfill my needs (let me tell you; IT DOESN'T WORK!) - I can tell you that emotional and intimate SF with my wife makes headstands with a midget, roulette wheel, and a hammer involved pale in comparison (ridiculous illustration to signify the ridiculousness of sexuality portrayed in pornography).

It will likely take some time to rebuild that intimacy, but if you work MB, it will return faster than any other approach.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

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IMO the term "sex addiction" is thrown around far too often.
Really, a man such as your WH, uses inappropriate sexual activity to assuage his anxiety and his deep seeded doubts about his manhood.

This has NOTHING to do with YOU or your sex life with WH.

WH brought his anxiety and doubts into the M as left overs from his first failed M.

Follow the MB path.
Do the exercises.
Forget about "sex addiction".

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Originally Posted by SweetPea2011
If he decides to cheat again, it will be with eyes, mind and heart fully aware ... and then nothing will save him.

EGG ZAK LEE

Pepperband #2513127 05/26/11 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
IMO the term "sex addiction" is thrown around far too often.

...

Follow the MB path.
Do the exercises.
Forget about "sex addiction".

I'm pretty sure Dr. Harley tends to agree. He says the definition of "addiction" has changed and he uses a much more narrower definition:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=9&sublink=560


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2513139 05/26/11 11:26 AM
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Bethesda .. Why is it you keep refering to "MEN" only having an issues with affairs or multiple sex partners? It happens to WOMEN .. just as MUCH as MEN ... infact if you have been watching this site for some time now, you would notice that most of the stories lately have been the opposite of your opinion and popular belief that MEN have this need to cheat.

I am infact a man and had PLENTY of oppertunity to cheat on my wife when she was with holding sex from me becasue our relationship was falling apart. I never ONCE cheated on my wife. Did I think it?? YES i did! I was starving for my wifes attention for almost 12 years as my wife paid more attention to the kids and her online friends than me!

Men dont need sex JUST for pleasure as you described, it is infact an important part of who we are and how we feel loved! Have you read His Needs Her Needs? I could say the same thing about Women needing Conversation! BUT Women need intimate conversation to feel emotionally connected to their spouse as much as a man needs sex to feel emotionally connected to his wife! This of course is just a generalized rule, but it is not fair to paint a picture that men only want sex for pleasure and that we are some kind of animal and have no emotions that revolve around it. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh 2x4 me if i deserve it.. but i was a bit thrown back after reading Bethesdas replies ... they were a bit offensive to me.

To the Original poster .. I am sorry for your situation. I believe you have come to the right place and that your marriage can recover if you keep all the EP's in place and BOTH of you work on maintaining Emotional needs and avoiding Love Busters!

MNG

MrNiceGuy #2513174 05/26/11 12:56 PM
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If you want to know is somebody is an addict for *anything*, run their behaviour through the Addict Filter and see what comes up:

1). Lies. Addicts lie about what they do and go to great lengths to keep it secret - not because they're ashamed, but to keep anyone else from interfering with their drug.

2) Escalation. They build up a tolerance for the behaviour/substance and need more and stronger doses of it.

3) Selfishness. Addicts love nobody and nothing but their drug - not their families and not even themselves. They only love their drug and if necessary will give up everything else they have to keep it.

I agree with who posted that a lot of men are not wired for monogamy. But a lot of women aren't, either.

So, if you don't like the idea of monogamy, then STAY SINGLE.

Nobody is entitled to cheat on a spouse and torment that spouse and children to death. It doesn't matter if "needs weren't being met". If that's really the case, either fix it or GET OUT.

Once single, you can date all the other SINGLE people you want and have sex 20 times a day if you want.

But the idea of cheating has got to become Socially Unacceptable. It has to occur to cheaters sometime that other human beings are not pets you keep for your amusement, and that by cheating in a marriage you are destroying other people's lives.

To the Original Poster: Your husband has got to stop excusing his behaviour with "my needs weren't being met so my cheating was justified." No way. That CANNOT be an option. Either he works to create a satisfying marriage with you, or he leaves and gets a divorce so he can BE SINGLE and date all the other SINGLE people he wants.

Single or married. Pick one. The damage comes from the delusion that you can have it both ways.


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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HHH:
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I would say that while he probably is NOT a sex addict, his sexual behaviors are in the category of abuse (termed like alcohol abuse or drug abuse versus addiction).
Agreed.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
EP's will begin to eliminate the threat of sex outside of the marriage and use of pornography.
They have so far, with the exception of two slips WH has admitted to and is readdressing in therapy. He's determined, though, to end it, knows how destructive it is.

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
The final nail in the coffin will be building a loving, romantic marriage in which all his needs for sexual fulfillment are met.
We're definitely on our way

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
However, due to his abuse of sexual activity, he will likely have to realign his appetite to marriage. This will make eliminating porn ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE.

As someone who at one time turned to porn to attempt to fulfill my needs (let me tell you; IT DOESN'T WORK!) - I can tell you that emotional and intimate SF with my wife makes headstands with a midget, roulette wheel, and a hammer involved pale in comparison (ridiculous illustration to signify the ridiculousness of sexuality portrayed in pornography).
Agreed!

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
It will likely take some time to rebuild that intimacy, but if you work MB, it will return faster than any other approach.
We are rebuilding. We've been recovering since probably day 2 following DDAY, in terms of putting the emphasis on the right things. I found MBs two weeks after DDAY, so we've been working the love bank philosophy ever since.

Thanks HHH!


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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Pepperband #2513197 05/26/11 01:57 PM
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Pepper: I'm honored you have taken the time to look at my thread. I've admired your advice to others and smarts for a long time
Originally Posted by Pepperband
IMO the term "sex addiction" is thrown around far too often.
Agreed about sex addiction label. It's just a little more complicated in our case because his older brother has been diagnosed as such, and what i know of his behavior probably is. It's bad. My WH has had his fair share of problems, but the diagnosis doesn't fit, and since his therapist agrees, I'm actually relieved. Bad boundaries, I can handle with EPs, HNHN and time.

Originally Posted by Pepperband
Really, a man such as your WH, uses inappropriate sexual activity to assuage his anxiety and his deep seeded doubts about his manhood.
Exactly. It's pretty sad that all four siblings in his family have serious issues with control, anxiety, feelings of inadequacy, depression. All but one of them are high functioning, successful people, the kind of people that others enjoy and look up to. Just goes to show you what a shiny shell of a personality can hide.

Originally Posted by Pepperband
This has NOTHING to do with YOU or your sex life with WH.
This has been difficult to accept, but then every time I think something stupid, like, I'm not attractive enough, I think of Tiger Woods cheating on his supermodel wife. If she ain't attractive enough, no one is! Ha!

Originally Posted by Pepperband
WH brought his anxiety and doubts into the M as left overs from his first failed M.
Definitely. He married young in his first marriage. The irony is that he had therapy following his divorce to deal with feelings of rejection and anger. Too bad he didn't go far enough then and deal with his own history of two affairs at that point.

Originally Posted by Pepperband
Follow the MB path.
Do the exercises.
Forget about "sex addiction".
Forgotten! And thanks, Pepper! You vets are lifesavers to so many people here. I never felt I had to post before, because WH has followed the path -- therapy and MB once I found it -- from the moment of DDAY. I'm very hopeful.


Me: 47
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Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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Pepperband #2513198 05/26/11 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by SweetPea2011
If he decides to cheat again, it will be with eyes, mind and heart fully aware ... and then nothing will save him.

EGG ZAK LEE

There's simply no more excuses, and it's not that he ever really gave an excuse, other than being a selfish [censored] who hadn't ever learned to deal with his own issues.

My motto for my marriage now is: Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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markos #2513201 05/26/11 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
I'm pretty sure Dr. Harley tends to agree. He says the definition of "addiction" has changed and he uses a much more narrower definition:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=9&sublink=560

I agree, and was only concerned because my WH's older brother has been diagnosed as a sex addict. Is his diagnosis as a sex addict appropriate? I have no idea. His behavior is despicable, and immeasurably worse than my WH's, and I feel that my WH's behavior was bad. But it's not addiction. We're both OK with that, and in fact, I'm glad. No excuses from here on out!


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
Kids: stepsons DS17 and DS13
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Mulan #2513203 05/26/11 02:13 PM
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Mulan: Thanks for your thoughts. One point I'd like to clear up:

[quote] To the Original Poster: Your husband has got to stop excusing his behaviour with "my needs weren't being met so my cheating was justified." No way. That CANNOT be an option. Either he works to create a satisfying marriage with you, or he leaves and gets a divorce so he can BE SINGLE and date all the other SINGLE people he wants. [\quote] He understands fully now that he shares an equal burden in the demise of his first marriage. He knows he wasn't meeting his wife's needs, and therefore, nor she his.


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My question: Is a man who has had three affairs on two wives, and pursued another woman the night before he's supposed to meet his POSOW "love," a sex addict? (And let's not forget the addiction to porn.)
He keeps entitling himself and he has very, very poor boundaries. Most of your work is right on track by your last response.
I would suggest that he have NO FRIENDS OF THE OP_SEX. None. No chit chat no nothing with any female other than family. I would also make him quit indulging in alcohol unless your in POJA on the whens and wheres.
I would have him find a Job and cease all his travels too if you can.





Divorced 11/5/2013
FXWW EA 2005/2008/2010
Hilsmon #2513480 05/27/11 09:52 AM
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Hi Hils: Thanks for your insight.

Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
My question: Is a man who has had three affairs on two wives, and pursued another woman the night before he's supposed to meet his POSOW "love," a sex addict? (And let's not forget the addiction to porn.)
He keeps entitling himself and he has very, very poor boundaries. Most of your work is right on track by your last response.
I would suggest that he have NO FRIENDS OF THE OP_SEX. None. No chit chat no nothing with any female other than family. I would also make him quit indulging in alcohol unless your in POJA on the whens and wheres.
I would have him find a Job and cease all his travels too if you can.


I agree on most counts. RE job: His current job is great, though, and his travel is limited, maybe once or twice a year. EPs include me traveling with him, so I'm OK with it.

The bigger EP is his abusing alcohol. His three affairs and one attempted were on nights of ridiculously heavy drinking. Not sure if you noticed, but I live in Wisconsin. Extremely heavy drinking culture here. WH has always seen himself as a happy "party" guy, and he knows now that he has used alcohol to sooth himself, to gain attention and to help him ignore his moral compass. He also knows that he doesn't NEED alcohol to be and have fun. But it's a huge mind-set change for him. I'm comfortable with EPs; and so far, so good. Time will tell, though.

When we were arguing recently, I threw a: well, if the past six months of being a "good" husband have been so difficult for you, then maybe we shouldn't be married. Later that night, he thoughtfully/sincerely told me that past five months -- after my extreme pain eased a bit -- have been incredible, and, even though he wishes he could erase the impetus for this change in our marriage (the affair), he wants our marriage to be like this for the rest of our lives.

I just want to thank everyone, again, for commenting on my post. I've read many, many stories, and have been amazed at the quality of advice and direction. So, give yourselves a pat on the back y'all for helping those of us who thought our lives were over. There's hope, there's a proven methodology, and it does work!


Me: 47
BH: 48, previously married
Married: Nov. 27, 2004
DDay: Nov. 13, 2010
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Originally Posted by sweetpea2011
The bigger EP is his abusing alcohol. His three affairs and one attempted were on nights of ridiculously heavy drinking. Not sure if you noticed, but I live in Wisconsin. Extremely heavy drinking culture here. WH has always seen himself as a happy "party" guy, and he knows now that he has used alcohol to sooth himself, to gain attention and to help him ignore his moral compass. He also knows that he doesn't NEED alcohol to be and have fun. But it's a huge mind-set change for him. I'm comfortable with EPs; and so far, so good. Time will tell, though.

I'm from the same state as you. Yes, there is a drinking culture, but it is escapable. Culture only influences us as much as we let it.






My4Loves #2513628 05/27/11 03:52 PM
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I agree with ToughLove, you've been given good advice.

I was married to a sex addict...he had recovered prior to our marriage and I never had any problem with him. I would not say that sex addicts cannot be reformed, I would say they rarely are because they rarely get the help they need and want to put forth the necessary effort. My husband had very strict boundaries for himself and adhered to them very strictly. He would not even watch a love scene on t.v., he'd get up and leave the room...he avoided porn or any undue situation that could be a problem. His entire outlook on sexuality had to change. (It had stemmed from things that occurred in his childhood that created a skewed sexual filter.) He received very intensive therapy and made great effort in his recovery. It is not a one time thing and then you're fine, it's a for life thing. It's not that different than alcoholism. There are groups for it, such as SAA but not every group is good, you just have to try them out and see if they have positive benefit for you.

Since his brother also has a problem it could be there is something in their background that brought this about, whether it's passed down thinking or demonstrated behavior or what. As stated already, it's not our place to assess your husband...not your place either, but to help provide you tools by which you can recover your marriage.

Do not put your brother-in-law's/sister-in-law's situation onto you and your husband, though, your circumstances are unique to each couple, even though there may be some similarities.

You are undoubtedly going to have a hard time letting your husband out of your sight after what he's done to you and your marriage. I would have some pretty strict requirements in place if I were to continue with this marriage...one being he is not to spend the night away from you and there needs to be a whole lot less un-accounted for time apart. That may mean one of you needs to get a different job so your schedules are similar, giving you more time together.

I would meet with the best and go straight to Dr. Harley on this one...

BTW, being a sex addict does not excuse one's behavior...all need to learn boundaries. I think there's a misconception here of what a sex addict truly is.
Here is a site that can answer some questions...
http://www.eugenesaa.com/whatis.html


Enacting life's lessons into positive change... .
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