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Can you do something for me? You sound so sad and so defeated, go and do something for yourself. Take a nap, take a bath with bubbles and candles, go for a walk with your son...anything that is calming and relaxing. Take a break and pamper yourself a bit, you need it. Seriously. You cant keep giving and giving and not doing anything to recharge.

After you get done with that I want to you to think very hard about what you need from your H to feel safe and loved in your M.

Try to think in terms of actions...you cant measure things like whether he thinks you can cope. You can see whether he is helping with decision making, domestic support, etc. Thats why you need it to be action based, so you know if he is doing it or not.

What do you need to feel safe? Write out a list of EP's you want to see, or areas that you just feel vulnerable still if you cant think of an EP for it.

What do you need him to do for you to feel loved? What are your needs and how do you want for him to meet them?

Try to think of anything that you need to change about your M for you to feel in love with your H. Counseling for the pornography addiction, or the MB online program, calling the coaching center...think big and set the bar high.

Then come back here and tell me what you need, we can go from there.

You are reaching your breaking point very quickly, so you may want to start quietly getting things in order for Plan B if he is not willing to start doing the things you need for him to do.

I mean it though about taking that break for yourself first! You need and deserve that.


We lived in two different countries for two years. Thank you US Army.

Me-24 FWW/BW
DH-27 FWH/BH
DS-6 years DD- 1 year

Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves. ~Henry David Thoreau

Life is a process of becoming, a combination of states we have to go through. Where people fail is that they wish to elect a state and remain in it. This is a kind of death. ~Anas Nin

If you aren't sure who you are, you might as well work on who you want to be. ~Robert Brault,


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So when I got home last night, I just gave up and crashed. I slept for three hours on the couch, before I got up and went to bed. I am just so emotionally exhausted, I had nothing left.


I found out this morning the he resents me because he no longer has a computer.

~~~Computer Back Story~~~~

His computers were removed on D-day to minimize the chance of contact with OW, also to prevent him from removing evidence should I have wanted to go directly to D.

After a lot of hounding about him wanting his laptop, I had it brought back into the house but hidden from him. I wanted time to adjust to him having a personal computer again. It stayed hidden for three months until I AOed because he was hounding again about wanting a laptop. I finally told him to take the D$% thing and leave me the he!! alone since it was more important than our M apparently. He got upset and smashed the laptop.

After that he had planned to buy a new one. He chose to spend his "laptop" money on other toys like a new lightsaber and guitar. A month or so back he was talking about a new laptop again and finally noticed that I was distant and withdrawn from the conversation. He asked me what was up, and I told him the thought of him getting a new laptop made me queasy since he has not demonstrated an ability follow through on boundaries. So he decided to PoJA, and said he would not consider getting another computer.

So now he tells me he resents me because he does not have a computer.

I told him that the reason he does not have a computer is from his own doing.

He is the one that used it as a mode to sneak around.
He is the one that used it as a way to look at porn without being caught.
He is the one that destroyed his laptop.
He is the one that broke his EPs by using an ipod to download porn.

I did none of those things. What I did do is feel uncomfortable about him having a personal computer. However he is the one that PoJAed, and decided not to buy one.

I told him that I am not to blame for his choices, he is. That he needs to stop blaming me for his behavior and learn to take responsibility for himself.



Was this a DJ too?


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Eluna, me, personally, I do not think this was a DJ. You are exactly correct, he needs to own up to his own behavior and realize his actions have consequences. He's proven himself to be untrustworthy and he's not made efforts to become transparent to you.

If he really wanted to demonstrate this, and wanted to be able to have his own computer, then the two of you should brainstorm on how that can happen and you feel safe. Example: a keylogger program that emails reports to you; all passwords; you listed as the "Administrator" on the computer; parental controls to block access to websites that you choose; computer accessible at all times to you, no questions asked.

What it sounds like to me is that he actually didn't POJA, he just decided he would #1 have a temper tantrum and #2 not get a computer so he could later blame you for it.

He needs to grow up and take responsibility for his actions and so far he seems to be all talk and very little action.


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Hi ELuna,
It's been a while for me on here, but I read your thread and just wanted to throw out a few items (opinions really). I am by no means a vet, so please take my words with a grain of salt.

*How do you and your H communicate? You H sounds alot like my H in many ways. He was/is a proctector liar. Lied to protect himself from "getting in trouble with me". (He used other excuses like, "I didn't want to upset you", "I knew you'd get mad", etc). I realized at that point that I was never going to get him to talk to me. So we started e-mailing or texting to talk over a problem. It sounds weird, but for us it worked. He was able to write what he felt, without me "getting mad" per se. We now are able to talk more openly about problems, but whenever a really big issue comes up, we text or email, then later on talk it over when we are calm or have reached resolution.

*You sound very much like me in the sense that you get wrapped up in the problems. You need to take a step back. First, your H is trying. Maybe not to the extent that you want, but he does sounds like he is at least trying. And it sounds like he's "going along" with alot of your decisions because he doesn't want to fight or have you leave him. Then of course, he resents you because you "made him" do something he didn't really want to do. Yes, I realize that it's not owning up to his responsibilities and actions. But I think the whole situation points to the possibility that neither of you is getting his needs met. You don't seem to be, but neither does he. My H did alot of the "going along" and I realized that I needed to step back and let him make some of the decisions about our marriage. In some ways I feel like I treated him like a child, so he behaved like one. I needed to make sure that he knew that even though he cheated, he did have a say in the future of our marriage. Do you think your H feels like that? Like he has a say?

*Please don't take offense to this, but no one said you had to drop your emotional support group in order to save your marriage. That really isn't his fault. I think you need to definitely start doing things that will make you feel better. I did not have emotional support for a long time. (And I blamed my H for it since we moved to an area where his family lived). but then I met a girlfriend who shook me up a bit and said that I needed to stop wallowing and figure out what I could do to make myself happy. I started looking for things to do (and inviting H along when appropriate) and everything improved greatly! I realized that depending on my H for everything was not a good thing. And I also realized that by doing that, I was helping my H see me in only one light. He couldn't believe it when I asked him to do things like parasailing and jet skiing. He thought he had me all figured out!

Hope this helps a bit.

-Txnatheart


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I will be honest. As this point I am not comfortable with him having a computer at all, regardless of the EP's put into place.

He has shown me time and again that he has lacks the ability to consistently respect boundaries. He is all for making our son stay in boundaries, but fails to do so himself.


He gave me more lip service about trying to fix things between us, but when I asked him what his plan of action was he did not have one.

I proposed he write a plan of action to recognize and fix issues between us. A contract with deadlines and consequences.

He said he is going to do it, but he is very hesitant about it. I sense he may try to push it off on me rather than doing it himself. But if he is not willing to do the work here, I am not wasting my time doing it for him. I just can't do that any more. I am at the end of my rope.


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*Please don't take offense to this, but no one said you had to drop your emotional support group in order to save your marriage. That really isn't his fault.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I dropped my emotional support because a lot of my friends were male. I did this in an effort to prevent myself from sliding down the same road he had just been down. And to protect the shattered remains of my marriage.

As for H being a protective liar, that is no excuse. Everyone is a protective liar when they lie. People lie to prevent themselves from being hurt. People lie to prevent themselves from experiencing the negative reaction to their actions. And it does not help to heal the M, it only shows that they are not trust worthy.

And another reason he needs to get over it. Our son has watched H lie to me and has begun to blatantly lie himself.


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ELuna,I definitely see you are at the end of your rope and I'm sending you virtual *hugs*. I understand how painful and frustrating all this is. I guess I would just say, step back and cool down a little before making any big decisions. I think you are getting caught up in trying to control his actions and that's never going to happen. You can only control your own actions. I know you don't want to get hurt again. But at some point your going to have to let go a little and trust. If not, it will kill you to live with this kind of anxiety. (And I really think you need to find a way to talk if you can. I know no e-mail, but texting, letter writing?)

One thought I had regarding having him make a plan. I totally understand why you want him to do it. Playing devil's advocate, though, I wonder what is the incentive for him to do that? I know saving his marriage is one, but what else? Do you think he realizes the benefits that creating a plan will give him? Or does he just think that making the plan will save the marriage, but keep him in this position? I guess where I'm going with this is that you don't trust your H, but it doesn't sound like he trusts you either.

Whatever happens, I am here rooting for you!!

-Txatheart


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Txatheart

Something tells me you have only read a few posts from my thread.

I have opened the way to trust my husband a little. The result, he broke the EPs we had in place. Every time I have started to trust him, he has broken that trust. I appreciate you trying to help, but telling me I need to trust him, when he has done nothing to earn that trust is going to fall on deaf ears.

Someone who lies and cheats is not deserving of trust until they are remorseful and repentant. When they are truly repentant of their actions they will strive to earn forgiveness and trust. He is not there. His actions are still all about him and no one else.

Yes I am setting a very hard line in the sand. I have had enough. It is to the point of [censored] or get off the pot. If fixing our marriage is not worth him making an effort, then why the hell should I continue wasting my life waiting around for him to get a clue?

My number one EN at this point Emotional Support/Emotional Connection.

If my spouse can not fulfill that basic need, then I need to get away from him and find someone who can. I am sick and tired of being utterly alone in my marriage. I am sick of being the one to tackle everything emotionally without help. I am tired of being neglected and abandoned by my husband.


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Hi ELuna,
I have read your thread and I do know that your husband has broken your EP's. But you are on here to try to save your marriage, right? And the suggestions I'm giving you are in line with the idea that you are here to make a plan and save your marriage. Only you can decide when enough is enough. I don't know if your husband will ever change, but what I'm trying to say is that you don't either. You can only change yourself.

In an earlier post you said that being a protective liar was no excuse. I agree wholeheartedly. But neither are AO or DJ. Those aren't an excuse either. But we all do those, don't we? So my point is that you asked yourself a very important question. Why should you wait around for him to get a clue? Well what's the answer? Do you want to wait around or not?

I just want you to know that I'm rooting for you to choose your marriage. Which is why I am trying to suggest ideas on how to make it work. And while you might feel abandoned by your H, I am certainly here for support.

-Txnatheart


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I am exhausted and frankly I am completely depressed at the moment. But today I have other things to deal with as DS is sick, and that has left me with an eerie calm.

I am still struggling. H has made a promise to keep clothes picked up for one week. It is a place to start.

I asked him to start small simply because I have found the best place to start learning something new is one day at a time. I feel like if he promises something for the long term, I have no faith that he will be able to do it. But if he promises in the short term, then there is a better chance he will follow through. If he can follow through on boundaries for a week, then I may feel like he may really be trying to change things. If not....

I am not sure how you guys figured out what you needs were. When I took the EN questionnaire, it was not even clear to me what was my number one EN based on the results.

So I have taken the time to look at what I want the most right now in our M. What would make me the happiest. And I realize that what I want more than anything from my husband is emotional support. More so now than ever before.

I always believed that part of any involved relationship was being a support for the other person. Being there to listen when life got the best of you. Being there to offer a hug, a kiss, or just a shoulder to cry on.

This has been missing from our M and this is what I need to be able to move on. It is a tall order, but it is my requirement.


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Originally Posted By: ElunaInNC
So I have taken the time to look at what I want the most right now in our M. What would make me the happiest. And I realize that what I want more than anything from my husband is emotional support. More so now than ever before.

I always believed that part of any involved relationship was being a support for the other person. Being there to listen when life got the best of you. Being there to offer a hug, a kiss, or just a shoulder to cry on.

This has been missing from our M and this is what I need to be able to move on. It is a tall order, but it is my requirement.


Sounds like your top two ENs are conversation and affection. Most women have those two top needs as well. Affection may displayed and preferred in various ways. There is a questionnaire in Five Steps to Romantic Love in which you can write down exactly how you would like affection from your husband. Same for conversation.

UA time of minimum 15 hours a week is very important. This will give you each the time necessary to meet each others most important emotional needs.


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Originally Posted By: 51CD30

Sounds like your top two ENs are conversation and affection. Most women have those two top needs as well. Affection may displayed and preferred in various ways. There is a questionnaire in Five Steps to Romantic Love in which you can write down exactly how you would like affection from your husband. Same for conversation.

UA time of minimum 15 hours a week is very important. This will give you each the time necessary to meet each others most important emotional needs.


In the beginning I expressed that I thought my number 1 EN was conversation. And the result was endless conversations about TV, work, our son, ect. The conversations did not open a path to produce an emotional bond between us.

So I tried to explain I wanted more intimate conversation. That of course lead to conversation that surrounded the gutter. And again no path for an emotional bond.

I fell in love with my husband because he was emotionally there for me when I needed someone the most. And at that point I could not even see that I needed someone to be there for me emotionally. So it made it mean even more to me when I realized it.

This is why I am now defining it as emotional support. H seems to have a basic understanding of what I am asking for when I say emotional support. So maybe this will lead to a positive change.


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Eluna won't be able to see my post, but others will;

The "small talk" referred to is the same "small talk" that sparked the beginning of relationships, it helps to build the trust and intimacy that leads to intimate conversation about life, love, hopes, dreams, the past, the present, the future.

No conversation is to be dismissed.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Wow I missed quite a bit, hopefully you are still doing ok and remembering to take good care of yourself through all this stress.

I wanted to tell you that you did a good thing by dropping any male friends that you had. That was an excellent thing to do to keep your M safe. Have you throught about trying to replace that support group with some female friends that can support you in trying to save your M? Is there anywhere that you might be able to go to meet some women like that, a church group or a playgroup you could go to with your son? You would be likely to meet other married women there that you could bond with.

I also think that you have the right not be comfortable with your H having a laptop. He needs to earn that trust back. Giving him small ways to do that and build up trust again over time sounds like a good way to let him show you that he is becoming a trustworthy person, as long as you dont let it go too far and return to blind trust without transparency. There is nothing that you can do about him resenting you for it. That is not something you can control. If he brings it up remind him that due to past issues you are not yet enthusiastic about him having a laptop, but that you hope that he continues to earn your trust back so that one day you will be enthusiastic about it. Let him help you brainstorm some things he can do to show you he is trustworthy.

Quote:
I proposed he write a plan of action to recognize and fix issues between us. A contract with deadlines and consequences.


It doesnt sound like he is enthusiastic about this project. I really doubt that he is actually going to do it and if he does then he is going to put in as little effort as possible. You already have a plan of action anyway, you have MB. smile

Are the two of you scheduling 20+ hours of UA time a week? I would start with that. Talk to your H and set a time where you will sit down and schedule out when you will have UA time and what you are going to do during that time.

While you are at it fill out the EN and LB questionnaires to evaluate how well you did at filling each other's $LB that week. Do not go over these together as it sounds like things are stressful right now and it could lead to fighting. Just fill them out and exchange them.

Dont worry if you have a hard time figuring out what number the needs are on your list. Even Dr Harley says that the results are often somewhat confusing and contradictory. When my H and I do it we focus and the needs that our spouse says makes them "very unhappy" when they are not met. I dont really think it matters if it is their #1 need or #4, if it makes them "very unhappy" when it is not met then it needs to be met right?

From what you have posted lately I am guessing that Family Commitment, Domestic Support, Affection, Conversation, and Honesty are the top 5 for you (though probably not in that order), but you will figure it out as you go along.

It will also help you to give your H a better idea of HOW you want those needs met. He sounds like he is trying with Conversation but is not talking about the things you want to talk about. Have you told him specifically what kinds of conversational topics actually help you to feel love for him? Or just brought up those topics yourself?

It sounds like your Taker is coming out really strong right now. Your Taker will protect you, and maybe it will help you to figure out what your boundaries are, just remember to keep that balanced with your Giver and protect your H as well. Having a completely out of control Taker will not help your M any more than being just a Giver has done.

*HHH- Small talk may be what starts you down the path to intimate converation, but if a couple never moves further down that path it's unlikely that they will ever get married. Small talk does not fill the $LB of most women and it is perfectly ok if it does not fill Eluna's and she needs more than that. It is also her responsibility to be honest and let him know if he is not meeting her need for Conversation in a way that makes her happy.

Kissing is what starts a couple down the road to SF, but I dont see many men happy in marriages where kissing is the furthest down that road they ever go. At some point you need to move beyond it, and I think Eluna has been trying for a long time to get to more intimate conversation and it is has not happened yet.


We lived in two different countries for two years. Thank you US Army.

Me-24 FWW/BW
DH-27 FWH/BH
DS-6 years DD- 1 year

Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves. ~Henry David Thoreau

Life is a process of becoming, a combination of states we have to go through. Where people fail is that they wish to elect a state and remain in it. This is a kind of death. ~Anas Nin

If you aren't sure who you are, you might as well work on who you want to be. ~Robert Brault,


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Awesome thought process and analogy RFA. I don't disagree.


So, if you were advising a man who was complaining that his W stopped at kissing, how would you advise him to get his need for SF met?

If someone is complaining that they want intimate conversation, and all they are getting is "regular" conversation, how do you advise them, the spouse that is here and posting, to entice their spouse to the next step?


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Originally Posted By: RisingFromAshes
Small talk may be what starts you down the path to intimate converation, but if a couple never moves further down that path it's unlikely that they will ever get married. Small talk does not fill the $LB of most women and it is perfectly ok if it does not fill Eluna's and she needs more than that. It is also her responsibility to be honest and let him know if he is not meeting her need for Conversation in a way that makes her happy.


Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
If someone is complaining that they want intimate conversation, and all they are getting is "regular" conversation, how do you advise them, the spouse that is here and posting, to entice their spouse to the next step?


I can't really give a good example for Eluna of the process in action, although I understand how everything *should* work in theory.

The spouse who is not getting his/her needs met has the responsibility to be RH about it and to explain how they would like that need met. From there, it is the choice of the other spouse as to whether or not to meet that need - i.e., they can POJA ways to meet it.

(That said, that is something not happening in my M (although I hesitate to call what I have a M anymore, but anyway) and RH about my needs is something I struggle with because of my own fears of rejection. When I have explained how I'd like my needs met, my H does not even try to POJA or to meet those needs in ways that speak to me. So no examples from personal experience!)

And then, in theory, when the other spouse (let's say the H) continues to refuse to meet the needs of the other spouse (the W), refuses to POJA, then the W doesn't have permission to refuse to meet the needs of the H - but she does have permission to determine if this is behavior she will accept (not having her need met). If she decides this is unacceptable, then it may be addressed by the Plan A/B/D progression.

If Eluna has tried to communicate how important intimate C is to her, and discussed ways jafo can meet that need (in a discussion free from LBs), and jafo refuses to meet that need, and Eluna is doing all she can to meet jafo's needs and demonstrating her willingness to continue to do so, then Eluna will need to look at the entire picture and decide if his refusal to meet that need is reason to go into Plan B and to eventually D.


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wulffpack girl- It is amazing how close our situations are. It is so hard to get over the hurt I caused my family. I am strong now but have to show it. It is a long road but I hope both of our situations turn out for the best. I appreciate your comments on my topic.

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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted By: RisingFromAshes
Small talk may be what starts you down the path to intimate converation, but if a couple never moves further down that path it's unlikely that they will ever get married. Small talk does not fill the $LB of most women and it is perfectly ok if it does not fill Eluna's and she needs more than that. It is also her responsibility to be honest and let him know if he is not meeting her need for Conversation in a way that makes her happy.
(That said, that is something not happening in my M (although I hesitate to call what I have a M anymore, but anyway) and RH about my needs is something I struggle with because of my own fears of rejection. When I have explained how I'd like my needs met, my H does not even try to POJA or to meet those needs in ways that speak to me. So no examples from personal experience!)



Fear = reluctance or refusal to be RH.

What would it take for you to be RH, what would it take to alleviate your fear?

Don't quote me ladies, Eluna does not care for my thinking.


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H and I talked last night a little bit. We talked about talking and realized that part of the problem is the details.

He explained that men tend to conversation in the most efficient manner possible. "You are pretty." "That's nice." "Cars need to be fixed." ect. Short statements of fact, lacking a good deal of detail.

Women on the other hand tend to be more detail oriented.
"You are pretty." brings up the questions of
"What about me do you find attractive? My hair? My eyes? My legs? My boobs?"

"That's nice" makes me ask "What is nice?"

The comments lack specifics and details. And therefore lead to a dead end wall for me. The thought process is not clearly conveyed and leave too much room for interpretation.

For the first time in a long time, H talked to me in my language. It started with him saying "I find you attractive." and I looked at him as said "More details, please."

Then he explained to me that when I was pregnant with our son, he thought I was incredibly beautiful. That although we did not have SF a lot during that time (he had a fear of giving DS a brain injury at the time) that he wanted me even more every time he saw me. That he never even notice the extra weight I put on at the time.

The conversation moved me in such a way, that I found myself highly enthusiatic about SF. It was not bedroom talk, small talk, or regular conversation that got me. It was an emotional contact that was aimed at relieving the insecurity that has arisen from my weight gain during pregnancy.

IE He opened up and shared hid thoughts with me. And those thoughts helped to relieve my fears of rejection based on weight I gained while bearing our son. I honestly thought that he found me physically un-attractive during that time, so hearing his description talking otherwise touched my heart.


Me - BS
Him - WS
Discovery 3/26/10
NC letter mailed 5/27/10
NC letter recieved 5/29/10
My Thread

Recovery may not be an option. Seriously looking a plan B/D
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
E
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 306
Found this article of the difference in men and women where conversation rituals are concerned. Interesting read if you are interested.

http://www.analytictech.com/mb119/convritual.htm


Me - BS
Him - WS
Discovery 3/26/10
NC letter mailed 5/27/10
NC letter recieved 5/29/10
My Thread

Recovery may not be an option. Seriously looking a plan B/D
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