Tex, I'm a FWW in an unrecovered M with a BH who is about 4 months away from being able to file for D in our state. I wanted to weigh in on a couple of points.

First, HTLD is correct in that it's a mistake to assume that your situation is somehow "different" or "special." It's not. One thing I've learned since coming here is that A's are remarkably similar - how they start, how they progress, the mindset of the WS, etc. You've got a garden variety WW who is obviously still very much in the fog. Her owning up to her actions and what it has cost her is critical in breaking through the fog.

Now, I'm saying this as a FWW who made my own feeble attempt to expose to OMW about 3 months after landing on these boards. I have no way of knowing whether or not she knows, and it makes *me* angry (as I am sure it still does my H) to imagine that POSOM is happily rolling along, consequence-free, free to start up his nth affair. My A has now been over almost 2 years, and I've gotten a lot of mixed advice about what to do as far as re-exposing at this point. Additionally, my H has no interest in recovering our M, so let me just say that now is the optimal time to do so, in an effort to snap your W out of her fog and as you want to recover the M.

As for telling the children, ours are on the young side as well, but I've taken time to explain to them that Mommy hurt Daddy, Mommy lied to Daddy, why that is wrong, and that it makes Daddy too sad to be with Mommy - also to make it abundantly clear that it is not their fault, that no matter what we still love them and will always be there for them. My plans are - whatever happens to my M - when they are older to tell them everything. A lot of folks IRL completely disagree with this, and have given me examples of kids who were never told the "whole truth" about why their parents split up. I don't care. My goal is that I want to make dang sure that this never happens to my daughters.

I trickle truthed my H for months after his initial discovery of the A and its termination. I also lied to everybody else - family, friends, even the MC - I tried to get everyone to believe the A was "only" an EA. One of the things my H wanted me to do when he learned it was actually an EA turned PA was to tell everyone I'd been lying to - that included my best GF's and my parents - the truth. I did so, including his aunt, who was the only family member on his side who knew what was going on. When he moved out at the beginning of this year, I also told his family the truth, b/c I didn't want them to blame him for our separation and marital failure.

If your W is serious (and unfortunately until she gets her head out of the fog, neither you or her will know if she's serious), she'll do whatever it takes to recover your M. I won't bore you with the list of things I tried to do to prove this to my H, and am still trying to do (if you have a spare week one day, you can wade through my monster thread), but suffice to say she should be working her butt off.

One other comment I wanted to address - I read it earlier but didn't have time to respond until now, so I apologize if this has been addressed in the meanwhile and I missed it:


While this is an admirable goal, it is impossible. Two spouses working the MB plan together can save their M, but it takes two. One may be able to bring the other spouse around eventually, but complete R will never happen until both are engaged. And yes, your WW is broken. So am I. So is every other WS who has ever lived. The thing is, you can help her heal (although she needs to tend to your hurts first, that's the sad part about the BS trying to end the A and get the WS back, is in the beginning having to do all the heavy lifting when they are so grievously wounded)...but you can't "fix" her. She has to address and confront the broken parts inside her - why she had such poor boundaries, why her moral compass went so far out of whack...but if she doesn't recognize why/how she is broken, you can't fix her. It is also not something you "have" to do - fix your M, or help her heal. As the BS you can always decide, as my H did, that she's "not worth it" and walk away. She may not be worth it. That's something you have to decide, and she has to try and show you that she is - or can be - worth it.

I dunno if that makes sense, and maybe it comes out of my mindset on my current sitch, but I just wanted to throw it out there.

Tex, do you want them to have a positive outlook on life or a realistic one? We cannot shield our kids from life (especially when the hurt comes from us). What sets us apart is guiding our kids through these rough times and bringing them to a clear, well balanced view. Sin hurts, sin kills, Grace heals and covers, it restores. That despite the fact that people can and do fail (even mommy and daddy), there is hope for joy... This is a realistic one IMO.

CV

Many good posts here.

Lying to kids does not make them happy or secure. Illusions do not make them feel secure. Unfortunately, kids are not as stupid as most parents believe and sense something is wrong. They usually conclude that the WRONG is them unless someone gives them the truth.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason to lie to kids about affairs. It is not good for them and certainly not good for the wayward. Whitewashing the crimes of your spouse helps no one.

Tex,

Let me tell you as one who exposed to very few (OMW, her parents, her brother, our three kids)... You end up living exactly what you dont want to live... a lie. When you deal with others who will invariably come along in the same situation of infidelity you were in, you will have to lie to protect. When you give advice to your kids and friends, or see something on TV that has infidelity related to it, you will be reminded you are carrying a secret and living a lie. I feel it walking down the street. Every day. It is a huge burden 3 years later. Everywhere I turn I am faced with the fact we live a lie. When our kids have issues with their bf or GF We are confronted with the fact we are living a lie. How do our kids explain that "we do things or believe things in our family because mom did X?"

Trust me, full exposure is initially more painful and embarassing, but in the long run is more beneficial. It's open, honest and reliable.

Peace without truth will not last.

Worth every minute.... I will suggest my WW watch as well. The thing is, we knew these things. We took the HNHN study at church. We took the 5 LL course as well. We went to FL weekend...... I wish those coarses would have talked more about the prevention of affairs. Deep down I sensed something, but could not pin point it and had no evidense. Had I used radical honesty, I would have asked every time I got a sense something was wrong. Lesson #1 complete. I tell her everything now.

Keep these post coming. I'm only 6 weeks into what seems to be a life long struggle.

Tex:

Maybe you'll find comfort in my story here.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2511215&page=1

Its a short 78 pages. You'll see the level of deception that can be done to someone and yet the marriage can survive.

Ok, once you read, you'll see my FWW was remorseful and begged for forgiveness upon dday which is not always the case.

But, the emotions are standard as are the steps to recovery.

You'll see on many occasions I was ready to walk and other times when i couldnt see myself without her. In hindsight, its a study in schizophrenia (sp?), really. Kidding.

All the fine folks giving you the business today were there for me.

Its now the story of my life. "How My Marriage Got Great" by mss

aw shucks maw!

No. it won't be a lifelong struggle. It will be lifelong work, but it gets easier the more you practice it.

CV

I am confused ... did you come here to hear the advice of people who have seen this situation many times, or to share your expertise? How many of these situations have you seen?

I came for advice and to vent with people who have been through what I am going through. I have started to reconcider telling OMW, my closest friends, and even my 14 year old. I struggle with my 10 and 6 year old. How will they ever recover from what their mommy did? They barely understand arguments over where to eat, I can't imagine they would comprehend the value of the affair. What if they then tell their friends, isn't that going to lead to more pain for them as well? I will take some time to conceder my options. Don't give up on me. I have to have a long talk with therapist as well. She has a need to know theory, and doesn't think anyone needs to know, yet.

That's the beauty of this place, we ain't going nowhere unless you give up and try "the Texas Two Step" method to marriage recovery. Even then we'll kick yourbutt.

We can tell you now that the therapist is a waste of time on most occasions. 9 out of 10 times they�ll tell you not to expose.

Exposure kills affairs. OMW is your greatest ally in making sure that your WW and the OM never speak again. The therapist, however, will likely disagree and will certainly disagree on telling the kids.

The kids should know why there is so much friction and tension in the house. I�m telling you as a man who was an adult child when his parents went through this problem. My brother, however, was 12. He didn�t know at first why things were so crappy and thought he was going crazy about some things. He witnessed the secret phone calls, and weird behavior and was lied to by my dad about what he was up to.

Knowing the truth was liberating. Odds are high your older kids are already aware something is wrong.

I have to find OMW again.....like I may have mentioned before.... I destroyed everything that had any association with him....WW through away bag, clothes and oil she bought for him. We burned all letters, deleted all numbers in phones, and FB. OMW is very secretive, so she is not easy to find.....FB will help.... OM has no FB or email accounts. He does have a Linkin account, which I have seen. It's how I know where he works. In my periods of rage, I dream of going there and exposing him to his co-workers. He is the manager or something.

Thanks again for the support and advice. Keep them coming. I have so many issues to overcome.

Your 10 and six year old can be told what Wolf Pack Girl told her children around that age:"Mommy lied to daddy and did something really bad". It's age appropriate. It lets them in the loop and is exposure without crudeness.

CV

Married couples who are actually working the MB concept of POJA would NEVER ARGUE about something as mundane as "where to eat".

You are not schooled in the majority of the MB concepts.
This much is evident.

You have a bad therapist, Sir. Any "therapist" who believes that the spouse of man does not have a "need to know" her spouse has had an affair is not qualified to counsel you in the recovery from infidelity. This therapist has given you bad advice. Dr Harley is a credentialed, licensed clinical psychologist with 40 years experience saving marriages. He knows what he is doing.

My suggestion would be to print up Dr Harley's article titled When to Expose and take it your "therapist" so she can learn.

Your kids are not little morons who cannot handle truth. Kids can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies. Any child over the age of 4 should be told the truth. Telling them lies does not make them secure and safe, it makes them insecure and confused. And it is also very bad for your wife to whitewash her crimes. Not telling your kids helps NO ONE. NO ONE.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it is like chemotherapy to cancer.

And be sure and say WHAT the "something really bad" is or you will just confuse the hell out of them. Tell them she had an adulterous affair , with WHOM, and explain WHY adultery is bad. It is very important to be very accurate and even more important to give them moral guidance.

I understood the concept of adultery as young as FOUR. Children over FOUR get it, so you shouldn't worry about telling a six and ten year old. They understand what you mean. Just don't make the mistake of glossing over the morality of it all. That is the parents job.