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Here is the radio show where I called Dr Harley: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=578I would point out another development I have seen over the years. A BS will come here and kill his spouse's affair and then never do anything else. They never work on recovering the marriage. They often show up here with REPEAT AFFAIRS. Harley says that if the marriage does not recover it is very probable there will be repeat affairs. And that is true. But most people just REFUSE to work on their marriages. Harley says in his article Requirements for Recovery: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. But try telling someone that they have to actually go through these steps and typically the answer is "but, but, I can't do that!!" They don't have time to spend 20 hours of UA time because they absolutely everything else comes first. As a result, the couple don't fall in love again and the marriage limps along in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. Until the next affair happens. Great points! And believe me, I understand that BS. Maybe they still wont make the effort. Or they are so decimated, and Plan A/Plan B all took so much out of them, that they had nothing left for recovery. As I said, I can see why the good doctor says that the biggest enemy of recovery often is the BS.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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MM, if you want to understand why the 2 repeat affairs are back on our board NOW, all you have to do is go read their old threads from years ago. They never discussed recovery while here, rather they spent their time chatting with board members. There was no recovery. No plan. I saw that. That seems to be the common thread, as you pointed out from Dr. Harley. No plan...repeat affairs.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Exactly what I thought, Melody. Which brings up an off topic in my mind...what if the BS did try to do all of the MB things they needed to do...but the WS never locked in. And then, it came up again? To that BS, wouldnt it be harder to get them onboard (since tothem it would appear that it didnt work the first time)? Even if the WS is now serious? If a WS doesn't get on board, the solution is PLAN B and then divorce. They should be divorced if the WS doesn't get on board. That is what Harley prescribes. He is real clear about this, your spouse either gets on board 100% or separation and divorce is in order. And you are right, some BS's don't want to continue if the WS has another affair. I would not continue such a marriage.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Exactly what I thought, Melody. Which brings up an off topic in my mind...what if the BS did try to do all of the MB things they needed to do...but the WS never locked in. And then, it came up again? To that BS, wouldnt it be harder to get them onboard (since tothem it would appear that it didnt work the first time)? Even if the WS is now serious? If a WS doesn't get on board, the solution is PLAN B and then divorce. They should be divorced if the WS doesn't get on board. That is what Harley prescribes. He is real clear about this, your spouse either gets on board 100% or separation and divorce is in order. And you are right, some BS's don't want to continue if the WS has another affair. I would not continue such a marriage. I hear you, Melody. I am just thinking of that situation where the WS actually is finally at the point of wanting to fly right...but the BS is so spent, so exhausted...that they have no energy to fight for the marriage. How do we talk to the BS and WS to help them proceed? It seems that the WS almost will have to take the marriage on their shoulders for a considerable period of time.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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How do we talk to the BS and WS to help them proceed? It seems that the WS almost will have to take the marriage on their shoulders for a considerable period of time. That's exactly right. And that is what Steve Harley tells them, that they are going to carry their marriage and render first aide to their victim. But when I see a WS who is not serious I do my best to persuade the BS to go into Plan B. Plan A should be short, short, short with a repeater, if at all. IT is plan Recovery or hit the road!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How do we talk to the BS and WS to help them proceed? It seems that the WS almost will have to take the marriage on their shoulders for a considerable period of time. That's exactly right. And that is what Steve Harley tells them, that they are going to carry their marriage and render first aide to their victim. But when I see a WS who is not serious I do my best to persuade the BS to go into Plan B. Plan A should be short, short, short with a repeater, if at all. IT is plan Recovery or hit the road! Noted!! I will be back on shortly to continue some questions that have arisen here. Have to go get the wife off to work (night shift RN!!).
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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I called Dr Harley in 2007 and he told me has saved lots of these marriages. I believe it was 2006, actually, as I found it some time ago, and I think I posted the link.  Unless that was a different call. I'm remembering that Dr. Harley said a serial cheater is addicted not to a person but to a lifestyle, and you have to have much more drastic changes (more drastic extraordinary precautions) to change the circumstances that lead the person to cheat, to make it impossible to cheat, in order to recover the marriage. It can be done, and as you say, the question is are they willing to follow Marriage Builders or not. For purposes of this discussion, do we have a distinction between "serial cheater" and "repeat offender"? Because as you say, there are a bunch of repeat offenders here, who are repeat offenders because they never lifted a finger to implement Marriage Builders and recover their marriage (though their betrayed spouse may have blogged here for years and made friends for "support" while they waited and hoped for things to get better). I'm not sure they are the same as the type of person Dr. Harley talked about who are literally addicted to the thrill of infidelity. Though they may be on the road to becoming such people, and some of them clearly are both. The issue is that couples REFUSE to follow MArriage Builders. If you read the repeaters you will see they do not follow MB and are no closer to day than they were 10 years ago. And they usually think "Do you own SAA/HNHN/LB?" is a rhetorical question, and the answer is often "no."
Last edited by markos; 01/17/12 05:32 PM. Reason: Nevermind, you've already posted the link
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I wanted to point out that there is one thing in common about the repeaters on this board: they NEVER EVER did anything to recover their marriages. That is WHY they are back here.
For example, they never implemented extraordinary precautions and they never created the romantic marriage that is essential to recovery. These marriages should have never continued in the first place because the WS never implemented even basic precautionary measures.
So I want to make clear that repeats are here only because they did not use Marriage Builders the FIRST TIME.
On the other hand, we do have some recovered marriages here that contain former serial cheaters. They are only recovered becuase they did the necessary things to recover the marriage.'
Serial cheating CAN BE RESOLVED if the couple recovers the marriage. I called Dr Harley in 2007 and he told me has saved lots of these marriages.
The issue is that couples REFUSE to follow MArriage Builders. If you read the repeaters you will see they do not follow MB and are no closer to day than they were 10 years ago. Exactly what I thought, Melody. Which brings up an off topic in my mind...what if the BS did try to do all of the MB things they needed to do...but the WS never locked in. And then, it came up again? To that BS, wouldnt it be harder to get them onboard (since tothem it would appear that it didnt work the first time)? Even if the WS is now serious? Mortarman, there is an excellent post floating around by poster Doormat_No_More about how to recover a marriage, a WS needs to do certain things, and their compliance is measurable, i.e., you can examine and see if they are doing it or not. I will try to find it. In the case you are describing, if the WS is serious and begins implementing healthy marital behavior, they will begin making love bank deposits, and if they are patient enough, and have enough opportunity (depending on the betrayed spouse), their betrayed spouse will indeed fall in love with them again. Of course, by the time we get here in the first place, the BS may be love busting the WS (which would certainly tend to demotivate them and prolong recovery or make it impossible), or may be refusing to spend time with the WS or even refusing to stay in the marriage. As is their right, really. But if the BS wants to recover the marriage the second time around, I would encourage them to learn how their WS's compliance can be measured. If the WS is doing the right things, and the BS is doing the right things, recovery will happen, even though at the beginning of the process, one or both may have feelings that cause them to be pessimistic and assume that recovery will not occur. It requires the use of reason/the intellect to override those emotions, measure the WS's compliance to see if recovery is possible, and then stick with the plan despite what one's feelings cause them to want to do.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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A helpful excerpt from a long post by Doormat_No_More. DoNoMo is one of the best posters on this site. I believe he has listened to tens or hundreds of hours of Dr. Harley on the radio, and he's really good at saying what Dr. Harley would say in a variety of situations. I read of so many stories where the WW says they'll change, and the BH is so eager to slap an "F" on their waywardness, and they enter a false recovery because the WW still has feelings for their AP... I agree with your premise, but not your conclusion. I believe they enter into false recovery because the conditions for recovery were not met: * Absolute transparency and radical honesty. * No-contact-for-life with the other man, and other extraordinary precautions to prevent the recurrence of this affair or an affair with a new person, * Commitment to a marital recovery program. All three of those requirements are measurable by a betrayed spouse. Original post hereThe requirements for recovery can be measured by a betrayed spouse. It is up to the BS to measure and see if WS is following them or not.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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A helpful excerpt from a long post by Doormat_No_More. DoNoMo is one of the best posters on this site. I believe he has listened to tens or hundreds of hours of Dr. Harley on the radio, and he's really good at saying what Dr. Harley would say in a variety of situations. I read of so many stories where the WW says they'll change, and the BH is so eager to slap an "F" on their waywardness, and they enter a false recovery because the WW still has feelings for their AP... I agree with your premise, but not your conclusion. I believe they enter into false recovery because the conditions for recovery were not met: * Absolute transparency and radical honesty. * No-contact-for-life with the other man, and other extraordinary precautions to prevent the recurrence of this affair or an affair with a new person, * Commitment to a marital recovery program. All three of those requirements are measurable by a betrayed spouse. Original post hereThe requirements for recovery can be measured by a betrayed spouse. It is up to the BS to measure and see if WS is following them or not. Good posts, Markos. I am actually kind of putting together a bulleted summary of what everyone is saying here for this situation. Very interesting.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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After coming here in 2007, my STBX WH "went along" with MB. He did phone counseling with Steve, we did the online program. He had a sheet of ExtraOrdinary Precautions written down. He cried when watching the infidelity video.
But (and it's a BIG but)...
STBX WH still had trouble with honesty + Independent Behavior. And had another affair in 2011.
So even if you have a seemingly pro-MB F?WS, if they have trouble implementing the two things I mentioned above (radical honesty and giving up IB), you have a BIG problem on your hands and are at an extremely high risk for another affair.
Don't know if I am getting off track here but just my two cents...
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After coming here in 2007, my STBX WH "went along" with MB. He did phone counseling with Steve, we did the online program. He had a sheet of ExtraOrdinary Precautions written down. He cried when watching the infidelity video.
But (and it's a BIG but)...
STBX WH still had trouble with honesty + Independent Behavior. And had another affair in 2011.
So even if you have a seemingly pro-MB F?WS, if they have trouble implementing the two things I mentioned above (radical honesty and giving up IB), you have a BIG problem on your hands and are at an extremely high risk for another affair.
Don't know if I am getting off track here but just my two cents... No,those are great points. Adding them to the list!
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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After coming here in 2007, my STBX WH "went along" with MB. He did phone counseling with Steve, we did the online program. He had a sheet of ExtraOrdinary Precautions written down. He cried when watching the infidelity video.
But (and it's a BIG but)...
STBX WH still had trouble with honesty + Independent Behavior. And had another affair in 2011.
So even if you have a seemingly pro-MB F?WS, if they have trouble implementing the two things I mentioned above (radical honesty and giving up IB), you have a BIG problem on your hands and are at an extremely high risk for another affair.
Don't know if I am getting off track here but just my two cents... Susie, that is EXACTLY why I didn't even want to offer my WXH the option of recovery. I knew he would 'go along' and yet I had no real faith in his sincerity. I think he stayed in a state of denial that I was actually going to divorce him until, well, until I was remarried a year after our divorce was final! He tried to get me not to marry my dh....I really believe until that point he thought I would eventually take him back. I have very little hope for repeat offenders with Honesty issues.
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After coming here in 2007, my STBX WH "went along" with MB. He did phone counseling with Steve, we did the online program. He had a sheet of ExtraOrdinary Precautions written down. He cried when watching the infidelity video.
But (and it's a BIG but)...
STBX WH still had trouble with honesty + Independent Behavior. And had another affair in 2011.
So even if you have a seemingly pro-MB F?WS, if they have trouble implementing the two things I mentioned above (radical honesty and giving up IB), you have a BIG problem on your hands and are at an extremely high risk for another affair.
Don't know if I am getting off track here but just my two cents... Could you link to his last thread? I'm having trouble finding it. I thought I bookmarked .... but apparently not. Thanks.
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i guess i should chime in here being one of those BS's with a serial cheater.
I agree with the distinction of a serial cheater and repeat offender.
maybe i am lucky in havin a serial cheater that was not hooked on a person but on a lifestyle- that i was more able to accept. i would be gone in one nano if there was more emotion involved, see my H has a hard time with emotions and committment in a way, he is much better now and the light bulbs go off every day for him, its like ahhh this is what a loving fulfilling life is wow.
you can read my drama or ask questions i will answer its hard to put my thoughts on this down, mind is swimming.
but the day the EP's are not followed, i am out. and the moment the independent behavior creeps back, i give the reality check and say that will not work for me. so if he want his independent life, he is going to have to really think if hes got the guts to say i am out.
do i think H was a coward but not telling me, yes. but i also think he got so hooked on the rush and couldnt see the big picture.
the struggle to get all of the info took some time, but once i think he was caught he figured i should tell all, now did he not really i had to pull it from him. he was relieved it was all over.
ok i am jsut blabbing and i cannot type Mort, you will learn that about me. but if you have questions ask me.
I did feel that i was a bit out there when i joined and that many posters were shaking their heads at my situation, being almost a year from dday i would be curious to hear what they thought.
read all books, demanded H do the same.
counceled with jennifer
have private therapy 3 time a week from march to october now 2x
Online course
H is at his session now
Me 44- yes ugggh
WH 47
together 26 years M 19
serial cheater big time
DD1 2.24.11
NC letter sent 3/7/11
NC letter to OW2 april
final truths 5/8-- all of them poly confirmed 5/18
working the plan
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i guess i should chime in here being one of those BS's with a serial cheater.
I agree with the distinction of a serial cheater and repeat offender.
maybe i am lucky in havin a serial cheater that was not hooked on a person but on a lifestyle- that i was more able to accept. i would be gone in one nano if there was more emotion involved, see my H has a hard time with emotions and committment in a way, he is much better now and the light bulbs go off every day for him, its like ahhh this is what a loving fulfilling life is wow.
you can read my drama or ask questions i will answer its hard to put my thoughts on this down, mind is swimming.
but the day the EP's are not followed, i am out. and the moment the independent behavior creeps back, i give the reality check and say that will not work for me. so if he want his independent life, he is going to have to really think if hes got the guts to say i am out.
do i think H was a coward but not telling me, yes. but i also think he got so hooked on the rush and couldnt see the big picture.
the struggle to get all of the info took some time, but once i think he was caught he figured i should tell all, now did he not really i had to pull it from him. he was relieved it was all over.
ok i am jsut blabbing and i cannot type Mort, you will learn that about me. but if you have questions ask me.
I did feel that i was a bit out there when i joined and that many posters were shaking their heads at my situation, being almost a year from dday i would be curious to hear what they thought.
read all books, demanded H do the same.
counceled with jennifer
have private therapy 3 time a week from march to october now 2x
Online course
H is at his session now Thanks for this! I am looking into your story!
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Me 44- yes ugggh
WH 47
together 26 years M 19
serial cheater big time
DD1 2.24.11
NC letter sent 3/7/11
NC letter to OW2 april
final truths 5/8-- all of them poly confirmed 5/18
working the plan
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After coming here in 2007, my STBX WH "went along" with MB. He did phone counseling with Steve, we did the online program. He had a sheet of ExtraOrdinary Precautions written down. He cried when watching the infidelity video.
But (and it's a BIG but)...
STBX WH still had trouble with honesty + Independent Behavior. And had another affair in 2011.
So even if you have a seemingly pro-MB F?WS, if they have trouble implementing the two things I mentioned above (radical honesty and giving up IB), you have a BIG problem on your hands and are at an extremely high risk for another affair.
Don't know if I am getting off track here but just my two cents... Could you link to his last thread? I'm having trouble finding it. I thought I bookmarked .... but apparently not. Thanks. Sure. Here it is: LINK
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I support those that want to save their marriage. However, my first marriage ended because of infidelity. I had no clue about MB back then. And it's very likely that had I known about MB back then we wouldn't have gotten to a state of where infidelity went down.
However, after finding out my wife was having sex with another man, I was done. When I first had suspicions, the marriage was pretty bad. And there were enough signs that you might as well could have said "cheating" without solid proof. I pretty much just cut off any physical contact with her at that point. At that point, I started preparing to get out of the house. Shortly after I had my proof, I was able to leave and I did. I was pretty resentful towards my wife as it was since we had gotten married. Nothing sucks more than being 17 and hearing "Oh I forgot to pick up my birth control a few months ago and I'm pregnant."
So, for me, having an affair is a deal breaker. And if my current wife were to have an affair, I'd not be one to save my marriage.
But I firmly support those that want to save their marriages.
Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)
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I don't know whether it goes under IB or not but as a person with a history of having multiple affairs I'd add that the sense of entitlement is something you have to really look as a BS.
This sense of entitlement comes with this idiotic lifestyle, WS gets used to the idea that s/he has more rights, more liberty to behave in more ways that other in their lives. It is their life, afterall! And this is a trait that goes away very slowly. When you have put an end to your affairs and decided to become a decent person then this entitlement shows its ugly head in negotiations which soon turn to fights.
This trait has been the hardest one to eliminate for me.
Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing
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