BWS, I usually like your posts, but you are way, way off here. MelodyLane listens to Dr. Harley on the radio practically every day (as do I) and I can testify that she is not sharing her own "interpretation" of Dr. Harley's material.

If there is an affair, then it is absolutely the root of the problems in this marriage, so I have no idea why you would post things like saying an affair is not the root of the problems. That is the complete OPPOSITE of what Dr. Harley says on the radio every day.

It's really frustrating to try to help someone with Dr. Harley's PROVEN concepts and then have people come along and try to claim that all opinions are equal and that we ought to hear conflicting advice. Marriages have been destroyed that way. Dr. Harley is the expert who has actually saved thousands of marriages and tells us how it is done. We are just laymen/peers. We can be at our greatest when we help people stick to the PROVEN plans Dr. Harley has developed.

The truth is, waywards are so high on their affair that they don't want to hear anything from the Bible, and definitely not from their spouse! You cannot educate a wayward because they are like a drug addict. You have to cut off the source of the drug.

And Dr. Harley's program was actually developed after he learned in his counseling practice that HE, as a professional counselor, could not talk Christians out of affairs by using the Bible. He couldn't even talk a church pastor out of an affair with the choir director's wife! You would think if anyone would be open to a "Christian" approach, it would be a pastor, but everybody loses their marbles when they are on drugs. And an affair is a drug.

It just so happens Dr. Harley also worked in chemical dependency recovery for years, so he knew how to handle drug addicts.

I don't think anyone came to this board to hear your opinion or MelodyLane's.

Here's Dr. Harley's opinion:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html

Interesting quote here:

Interestingly enough, in those same marriages, there is often one other person who does not have an affair, despite the unmet needs.

Years ago my wife said it was ok for those in separation to have sex with others. I was really surprised by that thought process and that she as a "Christian" woman would think its ok. I thought nothing of that but casual conversation a throw away remark. Now however, I am scared that she thinks its ok, maybe even acting on it now. In the second correspondence I sent the reconciliation agreement called for no dating. I was hoping to get a response such as I will or I won't. Since there is no response at all even to the idea of a reconciliation agreement I am left with fear uncertainty and doubt. In a way silence is a rejection of the "no dating" term of the agreement. One of the tapes negative or positive that keeps running through my head is the person who cares least about the relationship is the one who is in control.

If you are married ... separation does NOT condone sleeping with other people. If she is christian... ask her where it states in the bible that this is ok?.. its not .. Its still adultery no matter which way you look at it.

You should get some snooping tools in place .. your wife is VERY foggy ..

MNG

notafeeling, if you will get the goods about the affair, we can help you make an effort to save your marriage. The most important step you can take is to expose the affair wide and far. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing it is ruinous. But you have to get the goods first. Come back here with your intel and we will help you with next steps.

In the meantime, STOP lecturing her. Do your best to be polite and pleasant when you are around her.

NAF,

MelodyLane is giving you excellent advice. If you will let her guide you, you stand a great chance of figuring out what is going on and changing it.

From what you have said, it sounds very likely to me that your wife is in an affair. It sounds like she has a pre-made justification for living an affair lifestyle while separated.

My friend, you can NOT count on her to think or act "Christian" when she is HIGH on a wayward lifestyle. So like MelodyLane says, don't talk to her about Christianity at all; that would be lecturing her, and she does NOT want to hear it. You CAN win her back, if you can kill the affair.

I want to ask you, NAF: did you sit in class today, as I suggested in this post?

NAF - sorry for threadjack - last post from me on this topic.

Markos and MelodyLane - I'm very interested in your input on this idea. I can't tell if we really disagree or just describe our opinions in different ways that seem to conflict. I suspect the latter... though we may truly disagree.

Once I hear and understand your perspective in more detail I may very well realize I'm wrong and change my position. I consider myself a devout Harley-ite. If I'm really that far from Harley's take on this I want to understand how and why and change my mind if appropriate so I can give good and consistent advice to people.

I'm going to create my own thread on the SAA forum. It will probably be a few days from now.

For now I'm happy to move our discussion off NAF's thread.

BWS, fair enough. Might I suggest instead of starting a thread over on SAA, that you spend your time reading and learning over there? Read the posts, read Surviving an Affair.

The last lecturing she heard was me talking to her friends and family. I know what you mean by this. Its useless to talk about anything regarding the Bible. But I do want to add I have not spoke a word to the woman in over 130 days. Only two correspondence were sent through the attorneys. ***EDIT***

Okay, NAF, we need to get focused on doing something about your problem.

Have you listened to Marriage Builders radio, yet?

Well in order of priority, I thought of having someone look over a list of how I plan to fulfill her EN's, what I see as the M Busters that have occurred recently in our marriage with a separate mea culpa ltr. Before I do that I was thinking shouldn't I state that a note or letter from her is appropriate given I have been a faithful husband all these years. A note that would give specifics on what she states went wrong in our marriage, or like a Dear John letter. My lawyer has already asked basically tell us the why of whats going on and apparently the strategy is silence. Maybe she read a book on it are there any non-Christian authors that say separate, to give yourself time to heal and see if you want him, and during such time maintain absolute silence. Everything he asks for that he has a right to only give him 20% until the court forces you.

NAF, in order of priority, all that will be a waste of time if is having an affair. You need to hire a PI and find out if there is an affair here. You can't formulate an effective strategy if you don't know what the source of the problem is.

Please find out if she is having an affair.

Why is it so hard to get you to answer this question?

Please listen to MelodyLane. You need to do all of the below, ASAP.

Don't strategize when you don't know what the problem is. It does not add up that should would just leave you, unless there is someone else.

Focus here, NAF. Your family needs you.

I am very concerned that she would read this board so I am not going to go into detail. I will listen to MB radio ASAP. I have in my head the EN's that I messed up and some I wrote here. I am trying to find out if their is an affair. I just had an epiphany now that you asked the problem a fairly constant underlying theme has been that she communicates her conclusion that I don't love her. Recall that she threatened to walk out within the 1st year. She cried once 12 years ago that we would not be married in Heaven. She told others just after the separation that "he doesn't love me." So there's that. You want me to start at writing down the EN's (I basically did that) I will be working on the M Busters next and the letters I talked about. If not that what step by step course of action do you suggest? Thanks for trying to help me.

Every day?

It's going to take a while before new ways of thinking set in for you.

Step 1: hire a private investigator, as MelodyLane suggested. If this is not possible, then make it possible.