Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 9 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 147
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 147
Originally Posted By: mrEureka
My wife and I just used POJA to figure out who should dig up the septic tank. It wasn't hard, knowing who is most qualified to do the physical part of the work. I am clearly the stronger of the two of us. We were both enthusiastic about the solution. We paid somebody else to do it!



Funny enough his is exactly my point. You were both ENTHUSIASTIC as neither of you had to do the disgusting job. However if you didn't have the money and you had to do the job as the strongest and more knowledge in that field; would have been ENTHUSIASTIC about the solution?? no way, so that job wouldn't have got done. But it NEEDS to so therefore you would have AGREED to do it, nothing to do with enthusiasm. The only enthusiastic part is not having to know your wife did it when clearly you were more eligible. But that's avoiding guilt. Still not enthusiasm.

I feel POJA is about compromise and not enthusiasm. Its about reaching an understanding, an agreement, that you can both see is the best possible outcome from a situation therefore its a mutual decision which both parties understand so no need to argue or have any bad feelings about i.e resentment. Still nothing to do with the word enthusiasm as per dictionary definition.

Last edited by Learning2Grow; 08/20/13 11:16 AM.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
Quote:
I feel POJA is about compromise and not enthusiasm.

Well, you're wrong. And I've already explained why.

If MrEureka and his wife didn't have the money to pay someone to fix the septic, and neither wanted to dig it up, then no, it is a job that would not have gotten done. There is nothing that mandates that it MUST be done. However, it is very unlikely that either MrEureka or his wife would've wanted to stay in a situation without a septic for very long, and it would not be long before there was some enthusiasm for digging it up.

I get the impression you are desperately trying to find a loophole. Why?


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,432
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Quote:
I feel POJA is about compromise and not enthusiasm.

Well, you're wrong. And I've already explained why.
You have choices here. There is POJA, as has been clearly explained, and there are the other negotiating methods, including compromise. Why seek to redefine POJA? If you don't want to work at enthusiastic agreements, who is stopping you? Your marriage will suffer the consequences. That is the simple truth. I know you get it, so stop trying to win a pointless debate. POJA is what POJA is defined to be. You aren't going to make it into something else. Why do you feel the need? Are you trying to earn your POJA merit badge without doing the work? You will not enjoy the benefits of a MB marriage if you look for short cuts.


me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 6
J
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 6
I don't post much here, but I am interested in words and their uses. For what it's worth, I get you. I wouldn't have picked "enthusiasm" to describe this scenario either. It implies an emotional state that may not be realistic if all available choices involve pain and/or expense just by the nature of the dilemma (as in the unexpected failure of a crucial household system). That said, it does you no good to get too hung up on semantics here. You have already done the work of redefining "enthusiasm" in this context in a way that makes sense to you:

Originally Posted By: Learning2Grow
Its about reaching an understanding, an agreement, that you can both see is the best possible outcome from a situation therefore its a mutual decision which both parties understand so no need to argue or have any bad feelings about i.e resentment.


That's it in a nutshell. You come to a mutual agreement that path x is the best way to reach a mutually-desired outcome. Therefore nobody feels they got the bad end of the deal as compared to their spouse or feels pressured by their spouse into a suboptimal choice. Go forth and POJA. wink

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 147
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 147
Originally Posted By: Prisca
Well, you're wrong. And I've already explained why.

If MrEureka and his wife didn't have the money to pay someone to fix the septic, and neither wanted to dig it up, then no, it is a job that would not have gotten done. There is nothing that mandates that it MUST be done. However, it is very unlikely that either MrEureka or his wife would've wanted to stay in a situation without a septic for very long, and it would not be long before there was some enthusiasm for digging it up.

I get the impression you are desperately trying to find a loophole. Why?


Originally Posted By: mrEureka
You have choices here. There is POJA, as has been clearly explained, and there are the other negotiating methods, including compromise. Why seek to redefine POJA? If you don't want to work at enthusiastic agreements, who is stopping you? Your marriage will suffer the consequences. That is the simple truth. I know you get it, so stop trying to win a pointless debate. POJA is what POJA is defined to be. You aren't going to make it into something else. Why do you feel the need? Are you trying to earn your POJA merit badge without doing the work? You will not enjoy the benefits of a MB marriage if you look for short cuts.


Actually you misunderstand. Im trying to understand exactly how I should conduct myself in terms of POJA negotiations. Im trying to prove that the word enthusiasm is misplaced here and it worries me that however disgusting living with an overflowing septic tank you actually feel you will feel ENTHUSIASM towards cleaning it up. < EDIT >

Anyway I'm done trying to prove my point and I will give in and use POJA using ENTHUSIASM now without arguing anymore. further.

Last edited by MBeliever; 08/21/13 08:30 AM. Reason: disrespectul
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 147
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 147
Originally Posted By: JustPassingThru
I don't post much here, but I am interested in words and their uses. For what it's worth, I get you. I wouldn't have picked "enthusiasm" to describe this scenario either. It implies an emotional state that may not be realistic if all available choices involve pain and/or expense just by the nature of the dilemma (as in the unexpected failure of a crucial household system). That said, it does you no good to get too hung up on semantics here. You have already done the work of redefining "enthusiasm" in this context in a way that makes sense to you:

Originally Posted By: Learning2Grow
Its about reaching an understanding, an agreement, that you can both see is the best possible outcome from a situation therefore its a mutual decision which both parties understand so no need to argue or have any bad feelings about i.e resentment.


That's it in a nutshell. You come to a mutual agreement that path x is the best way to reach a mutually-desired outcome. Therefore nobody feels they got the bad end of the deal as compared to their spouse or feels pressured by their spouse into a suboptimal choice. Go forth and POJA. wink


Thank you. I was actually trying to help my marriage when using POJA as being able to agree to the best apparent solution would mean a lot more is going to happen. However apparently its all about enthusiasm although no one can really explain it to me.

Its actually deeply worrying that people here have actually redefined their own understanding of the word enthusiasm to make POJA work. If they read the dictionary meaning and then tried POJAing very little would happen compared to currently.

Anyway as I am doing the MB program I shall follow like a sheep and use enthusiasm when POJAing and we will see what happens..

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,121
Likes: 1
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,121
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Learning2Grow
Originally Posted By: JustPassingThru
I don't post much here, but I am interested in words and their uses. For what it's worth, I get you. I wouldn't have picked "enthusiasm" to describe this scenario either. It implies an emotional state that may not be realistic if all available choices involve pain and/or expense just by the nature of the dilemma (as in the unexpected failure of a crucial household system). That said, it does you no good to get too hung up on semantics here. You have already done the work of redefining "enthusiasm" in this context in a way that makes sense to you:

Originally Posted By: Learning2Grow
Its about reaching an understanding, an agreement, that you can both see is the best possible outcome from a situation therefore its a mutual decision which both parties understand so no need to argue or have any bad feelings about i.e resentment.


That's it in a nutshell. You come to a mutual agreement that path x is the best way to reach a mutually-desired outcome. Therefore nobody feels they got the bad end of the deal as compared to their spouse or feels pressured by their spouse into a suboptimal choice. Go forth and POJA. wink


Thank you. I was actually trying to help my marriage when using POJA as being able to agree to the best apparent solution would mean a lot more is going to happen. However apparently its all about enthusiasm although no one can really explain it to me.

Its actually deeply worrying that people here have actually redefined their own understanding of the word enthusiasm to make POJA work. If they read the dictionary meaning and then tried POJAing very little would happen compared to currently.

Anyway as I am doing the MB program I shall follow like a sheep and use enthusiasm when POJAing and we will see what happens..



Well, if you have an issue with the "enthusiastic" part, why don't you write Dr. Harley about it?

<EDIT>

Last edited by MBeliever; 08/21/13 08:27 AM. Reason: disrespectful

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 478
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 478

Dr. Harley explained to me that he uses enthusiastic as opposed to reluctant. It's not always about being excited about the task itself, but about agreeing the outcome is worth the effort of the task. He often uses an example of his college job of stuffing envelopes as an example. He didn't like it, it was boring, tedious. However, he worked a system where he was more efficient, as well as enjoyed his coworkers' company. He missed the job when it was over because he missed his coworkers and the atmosphere.

It's not just about the job or task, it's also about being partners, about the marriage relationship you're building around the tasks and burdens, as well as the joys and fun, of life.

He also has an example of a limb falling in the back yard that bothers the wife, but it doesn't bother the husband. Actually, the husband doesn't feel like removing the limb. He said they could negotiate him removing it, and that they could negotiate that if he removed it, the wife would gave him a big hug and kiss and thank you after he did it. This is an exaple of coming to a solution that they both agreed to enthusiastically.


xFWW(me)-48
Married-14 years
D-Day~23-May-11
NC- 14-Apr-11
1 DS 15
Online course July '11 to July '12
17 sessions with S. Harley Feb '12 to Sep '12
Divorced Jan 21, 2013
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,271
Likes: 2
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,271
Likes: 2
Will you write Dr. Harley?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,153
2
Member
Offline
Member
2
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,153
Originally Posted By: Learning2Grow


I feel POJA is about compromise and not enthusiasm. Its about reaching an understanding, an agreement, that you can both see is the best possible outcome from a situation therefore its a mutual decision which both parties understand so no need to argue or have any bad feelings about i.e resentment. Still nothing to do with the word enthusiasm as per dictionary definition.



The way I interpret 'enthusiastic agreement' is that both H and W are not Capitulating or Agreeing just to make the other person happy in a way that sacrifices their own happiness.

Maybe you are confusing Enthusiasm with Happiness? Say the grass needs cut. W and I negotiate when/how it is going to get done in a way that works for both of us. Am I happy that the grass needs mowed? Maybe not but I am enthusiastic on HOW it is going to be done.

To me the POJA takes years to perfect (if ever) but it is the single most important aspect of MB's. I truly see its value in my own life.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,448
The Beauty of POJA: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2372783&page=1

Posters with a similar attitude to yours re POJA are addressed so I encourage you to read it.


Ddays 2007 and 2011
Plan B 6/21/11
Divorced July 2012
2 kids
How to Plan B Correctly
Parallel Parenting in Plan B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,271
Likes: 2
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,271
Likes: 2
Originally Posted By: Learning2Grow
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
What exactly have you read so far? What books, articles? And how many hours of radio show have you listened to?

Did you see this post?


sorry no I didnt. As you know we have been around in these forums for years now. We have read all the basic concepts together, done all the questionnaires many times. We have SAA which we mostly read but switched to HNHN which we have read but are about to re-read together. Ive listened to radio clips regarding to us but no others. My wife listens to more and has asked me to listen to others which I have with her.

Have you read Love Busters?

Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Page 9 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 44 guests, and 44 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mwid, Shepherd, alg, Pelican89, SRL
71,673 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,526
Posts2,322,551
Members71,673
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5