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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
I guess what I'm saying is that my wife's life experiences have caused her to build many sub-conscious protection instincts and this is interfering with her ability to be honest.


I do hope you havent said anything of this sort to her. Hearing that our outlook on life is wrong (even if it is) and that our spouse has better ideas than we do, is very irritating.

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley


In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.

At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one spouse wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful. That's when we make sizable withdrawals from the Love Bank.



Gosh no, not if I want to be married to this woman, but I used to when we would fight in the past. 100% off limits forever and is about the worst thing I could ever do to her.

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Originally Posted By: BrainHurts
Why doesn't she Plan B her mother?


Because she has a hidden power over her. Not sure, she admits that she'll never have the relationship that she wants with her mother, yet is inextricably drawn towards trying to please her.

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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Welcome back! I'm glad to hear things are a lot better than they were. Have you noticed it's hard to have a bad attitude around a happy person, it just kind of deflates? I've seen the folks here who listen to the show a lot, and it gives them a more long term perspective where the daily stuff doesn't bother them anymore. It gives them like this midwest "we got this" attitude. That would be my suggestion,listen to the show a lot or spend family time IRL with those folks that don't get flustered.


Yes which is why I find other things to do when I'm around my frequently grumpy wife. It is a total drag to be around. What you are suggesting is that the things that are a drain on my energy will be more tolerable if I'm in a more positive environment more often. I try to do this whenever possible.

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Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust

Self esteem causes her to be dishonest, I certainly don't think she consciously does it. If I respectfully tell her my complaint, she begins to feel bad about what she did or said to me which is a direct hit on her self esteem. She must protect it at all times, so my complaints get rejected or deflected.

As far as my assessment of her being dishonest, it isn't a judgment it is a diagnosis, one that she herself says all the time, yet is unable to reconcile.


This makes no sense at all. Her lying is unconscious - but she herself admits it? How can it be both conscious and unconscious?

Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust

I reject that my assessment was assumptive in nature. If my wife had said, "Honey, I stayed late at the gym and now I'm running behind, can you take the kids to school this morning so I'm not quite so rushed?" I'd say sure and I wouldn't find it be a LB at all. It never works that way, I mean NEVER.


You missed my point. What I said was she might ask you to give her time for one thing, then use it for another - that doesn't make her dishonest. It could be a thoughtless change of plan - but that isnt dishonesty. It equally could be disorganisation.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that she uses dishonesty with you a lot as it's a common marriage problem. But I'm puzzled as to why you only have vague examples of things that might not be dishonesty at all. If she was dishonest as habitually as you claim, you would have a lot of clear cut examples of dishonesty.

Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
The other day her Ipod button broke and she was convinced that somebody broke it. I said, "Well sometimes things get used for awhile and break over time." She replied, "Nope, one of you did it and I need a new one now." I can't be more adamant that what I just wrote to you.



Again, this isn't dishonesty! She's made a DJ that her family have lied to her about breaking the iPod - but that is not necessarily a lie!

One of the best ways to spot DJs is to look out for the words 'never' and 'always'. i you find yourself saying to your spouse 'you never' or 'you always' - watch out. I would count how often you have just used the words in your post.

Is it accurate to use these words?

I have known some pretty habitual liars in my time but hardly any that 'always' lie and are 'never' truthful.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
[Gosh no, not if I want to be married to this woman, but I used to when we would fight in the past. 100% off limits forever and is about the worst thing I could ever do to her.


Great news.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust

Self esteem causes her to be dishonest, I certainly don't think she consciously does it. If I respectfully tell her my complaint, she begins to feel bad about what she did or said to me which is a direct hit on her self esteem. She must protect it at all times, so my complaints get rejected or deflected.

As far as my assessment of her being dishonest, it isn't a judgment it is a diagnosis, one that she herself says all the time, yet is unable to reconcile.


This makes no sense at all. Her lying is unconscious - but she herself admits it? How can it be both conscious and unconscious?

Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust

I reject that my assessment was assumptive in nature. If my wife had said, "Honey, I stayed late at the gym and now I'm running behind, can you take the kids to school this morning so I'm not quite so rushed?" I'd say sure and I wouldn't find it be a LB at all. It never works that way, I mean NEVER.


You missed my point. What I said was she might ask you to give her time for one thing, then use it for another - that doesn't make her dishonest. It could be a thoughtless change of plan - but that isnt dishonesty. It equally could be disorganisation.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that she uses dishonesty with you a lot as it's a common marriage problem. But I'm puzzled as to why you only have vague examples of things that might not be dishonesty at all. If she was dishonest as habitually as you claim, you would have a lot of clear cut examples of dishonesty.

Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
The other day her Ipod button broke and she was convinced that somebody broke it. I said, "Well sometimes things get used for awhile and break over time." She replied, "Nope, one of you did it and I need a new one now." I can't be more adamant that what I just wrote to you.



Again, this isn't dishonesty! She's made a DJ that her family have lied to her about breaking the iPod - but that is not necessarily a lie!

One of the best ways to spot DJs is to look out for the words 'never' and 'always'. i you find yourself saying to your spouse 'you never' or 'you always' - watch out. I would count how often you have just used the words in your post.

Is it accurate to use these words?

I have known some pretty habitual liars in my time but hardly any that 'always' lie and are 'never' truthful.


"This makes no sense at all. Her lying is unconscious - but she herself admits it? How can it be both conscious and unconscious?"

If you think about it, she is aware that she has a tendency to do this, but is frequently unaware when it happens in real time.

"You missed my point. What I said was she might ask you to give her time for one thing, then use it for another - that doesn't make her dishonest. It could be a thoughtless change of plan - but that isnt dishonesty. It equally could be disorganisation.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that she uses dishonesty with you a lot as it's a common marriage problem. But I'm puzzled as to why you only have vague examples of things that might not be dishonesty at all. If she was dishonest as habitually as you claim, you would have a lot of clear cut examples of dishonesty. "

If she was disorganized, which she is, then she would say, "You know I didn't plan very well today and ran into a friend at the gym, can you take the kids to school?" I'll say it again, this is not what she says ever. She will inevitably and invariably come up with an excuse as to why she needs me to take the kids to school that is dishonest at it's core. Her being disorganized or wanting to change her mind(which is fine) doesn't mean she gets a free pass to be dishonest if you and I are being 100% honest and objective about the situation.

"Again, this isn't dishonesty! She's made a DJ that her family have lied to her about breaking the iPod - but that is not necessarily a lie!

One of the best ways to spot DJs is to look out for the words 'never' and 'always'. i you find yourself saying to your spouse 'you never' or 'you always' - watch out. I would count how often you have just used the words in your post.

Is it accurate to use these words?

I have known some pretty habitual liars in my time but hardly any that 'always' lie and are 'never' truthful."

I use "never" and "always" with you not her, as I said I've been at this a long time. Look, I understand you've been on these forums a long time and you are able to identify patterns and traits that translate from a forum post to action in real life. You kind of have to live in my shoes to experience what I'm talking about. It IS quite literally "always." Context is important and although the words might be interpreted as a DJ about the Ipod, context tells me that this is her MO, her pattern. Assigning blame without proof may not be a lie but it is most certainly dishonest if you are and I are being objectively truthful with each other. We are desensitized in today's world and when we blame others some of us don't even flinch.

I also know that it is very easy to find fault with the arguments of objective thinkers because we are all tainted by our life experiences and see things with a more subjective lens. We are so caught up in trying "not to offend others" that objective thought is almost abrasive. There is a balance though. If we only see things with our subjective lens then we frequently are unable to see things for what they are. The inability to be objective trashes marriages all over the country and everything Dr H has figured out has backed that up. My wife is in fact dishonest much of the time and I do not believe for one second that "one man's lie is another man's truth" or any variation of the sort.

To get back to it again, the dilemma I currently face is that I don't know what to do when faced with an LB from my wife that involves a dishonest portrayal of the events or words that transpired. Can we work on that together?

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Sorry but I don't see any examples of dishonesty.

Your example 'I was disorganised yesterday, can you help me today' doesn't take into account that she might not get disorganised until AFTER she has made the request. She might truthfully intend to get ready but get disorganised/distracted and do something else after you leave.

And no, a DJ about the ipod isn't dishonesty in any form.

Assumptions and dishonesty are two entirely separate things.

I think you're trapped by constantly turning to the explanation of dishonesty.

You are using this DJ as an automatic jump off point instead of respectfully asking her what IS wrong.

Wrong diagnoses lead to wrong conclusions.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I don't see her DJs as being much worse than yours to be honest.

Thinking 'I had a better upbringing' and assuming you are more truthful than she is without any real evidence, is simply a good way to assure yourself that your way is the best way.

I don't see any mention of PoJA or of considering her perspective.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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HL, I have been following along, both with your original incarnation of this subject and the current form and user name.

Why did you feel the need for dishonesty, if you will, by signing up as a new forum member? Are you worried about your wife reading here? Given that you are not trying to bust up an affair or come up with some other covert plans in the face of infidelity, I don't understand why you would hide what you are saying here from your wife - if you are willing to share with complete strangers, then I believe you should already have shared with your wife. Complete strangers should never be more clued in to the state of your marriage/state of your mind in your marriage than your wife.

FTR, I also see no examples of dishonesty. Blame it on my clearly "subjective" thinking, but you have not provided any "objectively" concrete examples of dishonesty. Thought patterns that are different from yours do not equal dishonesty.


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Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
Look, I understand you've been on these forums a long time and you are able to identify patterns and traits that translate from a forum post to action in real life.


You don't have to be an old hand on the MB forums to understand what dishonesty is. Little kids understand what dishonesty is.

It has nothing to do with 'subjective' or 'objective' or 'blaming others' or any of the other rather vague things you are mentioning.

Dishonesty is lying. Either by saying untruths or omitting to tell the truth.

Originally Posted By: V_planifolia
you have not provided any "objectively" concrete examples of dishonesty.


I too would be rather interested to see a proper and concrete example of dishonesty. We can't help you solve this dishonesty when you haven't mentioned a single example yet.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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By any chance was her childhood and the 'subconscious patterns' your therapist's opinion?


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Quote:
The way to help an "avoid trouble" liar learn to be truthful is to focus attention on honesty and ignore everything else for a while. I encourage such people to tell the truth in return for their spouses not telling them what to do. In other words, minimize the consequences of the acts that they are afraid will get them into trouble. Instead of trying to punish your wife for going back on her promises, I would put more emphasis on safe and pleasant negotiation, where she is free to explain what she wants to do, and give you a chance to offer alternatives that are genuinely attractive to her.

What happens now is that she feels she is "made" to agree with you. You have told her that unless she does this or that, you will leave her. Even in the beginning, you explained that unless she stopped smoking, you would not even date her. She has learned to agree with anything and then do what she pleases to avoid a fight or being abandoned. But what if there were no fight? What if you wouldn't leave her? I recommend that you try to stop fighting with her, and you stop threatening to leave her. When she tells you she smokes, tell her you would appreciate it if she didn't, and offer her incentives to stop. But I wouldn't use threats.

Infidelity is quite another matter, of course, but I think she has gone a long way just to have told you about it. I don't think she wants to make a habit of cheating on you, but she doesn't want you to threaten to kick her out either. I may sound naive on this point, but I would try to create a non-threatening environment for her first, and then see if she cheats on you.

There are two essential conditions that you must follow if you want her to negotiate with you honestly. They must be safe and enjoyable. In other words, when you negotiate you should never threaten her with punishment, or make the negotiations unpleasant for her. Instead, you should be willing to allow her to do whatever she wants if you have not reached an agreement, without recrimination.



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5016_qa.html


Add this to your meeting of her needs and eliminating Love Busters, (HT)HL.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
By any chance was her childhood and the 'subconscious patterns' your therapist's opinion?


I wondered about this too. The MB way of looking at honesty is a little different from the conventional way as it is so core to MB concepts.

An example that came to me:

My XH was/is a hoarder. Eventually I got fed up with the boxes that would be dumped in the hall daily. We got to the point where there was literally nowhere left to put the stuff. Visitors would have to climb over the boxes to get into the house. He was paranoid that everything had to be kept. So I am ashamed to say that I started sneaking off and throwing his things away when he was out. One day I threw out 14 huge black garbage bags of ragged old shirts. It made me feel better but it contributed to the rot of our relationship.

The dishonesty was not that I threw his stuff away. The dishonesty was that I did not insist on POJA-ing the problem. Can you see the difference?


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Originally Posted By: living_well
Originally Posted By: indiegirl
By any chance was her childhood and the 'subconscious patterns' your therapist's opinion?


I wondered about this too. The MB way of looking at honesty is a little different from the conventional way as it is so core to MB concepts.

An example that came to me:

My XH was/is a hoarder. Eventually I got fed up with the boxes that would be dumped in the hall daily. We got to the point where there was literally nowhere left to put the stuff. Visitors would have to climb over the boxes to get into the house. He was paranoid that everything had to be kept. So I am ashamed to say that I started sneaking off and throwing his things away when he was out. One day I threw out 14 huge black garbage bags of ragged old shirts. It made me feel better but it contributed to the rot of our relationship.

The dishonesty was not that I threw his stuff away. The dishonesty was that I did not insist on POJA-ing the problem. Can you see the difference?


No therapist had nothing to do with that analysis. Ultimately this comes down to conflict and how quickly it escalates. I have been choosing to avoid complaining because her reaction to it is so severe. Again, I'm not here to build a case against my wife, I'm way past that level of maturity in terms of my understanding of the MB process. I most certainly once was trying to build a case in the past and you can see that in my many posts a couple years ago.

Here's a thought. Dr H says that when you complain that you should only complain about the top 3 things your spouse does that bother you. For me, there are only two issues, but they happen so frequently that to address each one of them every single time would create so much conflict that I don't think it would be productive. How about I pick one moment each day to complain? If successful then maybe I'll go to two down the road.

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Originally Posted By: indiegirl
Sorry but I don't see any examples of dishonesty.

Your example 'I was disorganised yesterday, can you help me today' doesn't take into account that she might not get disorganised until AFTER she has made the request. She might truthfully intend to get ready but get disorganised/distracted and do something else after you leave.

And no, a DJ about the ipod isn't dishonesty in any form.

Assumptions and dishonesty are two entirely separate things.

I think you're trapped by constantly turning to the explanation of dishonesty.

You are using this DJ as an automatic jump off point instead of respectfully asking her what IS wrong.

Wrong diagnoses lead to wrong conclusions.


I feel like I'm in a battle of semantics with you IG. Dishonesty, untruths, twisting facts, distorting reality, assigning blame with no justification, they all revolve around the same thing and you can feel free to call it whatever you want. I prefer to call it what I believe it is, which is that my wife isn't honest with herself nor is she with me.

This is a pattern, it happens multiple times a day, and even if the source begins with her inability to be organized, it is in how she attempts to justify it where the dishonesty is rooted.

"Wrong diagnoses lead to wrong conclusions."

Bingo. In this case it is your diagnoses of the realities of my relationship with my wife that is led to the wrong conclusion. Whoever said dishonesty only involves lying or the omission of truth? I think you've pigeon holed me into needing to prove that my wife has told a bold-faced lie or has omitted truth in order for her to be guilty of doing dishonest things. It appears to be black and white and everything else related to it you prefer to call something else, ie disorganized, distracted, being assumptive, etc. In other words your compass and subjective lens has decided that mine is inaccurate based on your definition of dishonesty. Go research it, I think the subject is much broader than what you claim it to be.

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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Quote:
The way to help an "avoid trouble" liar learn to be truthful is to focus attention on honesty and ignore everything else for a while. I encourage such people to tell the truth in return for their spouses not telling them what to do. In other words, minimize the consequences of the acts that they are afraid will get them into trouble. Instead of trying to punish your wife for going back on her promises, I would put more emphasis on safe and pleasant negotiation, where she is free to explain what she wants to do, and give you a chance to offer alternatives that are genuinely attractive to her.

What happens now is that she feels she is "made" to agree with you. You have told her that unless she does this or that, you will leave her. Even in the beginning, you explained that unless she stopped smoking, you would not even date her. She has learned to agree with anything and then do what she pleases to avoid a fight or being abandoned. But what if there were no fight? What if you wouldn't leave her? I recommend that you try to stop fighting with her, and you stop threatening to leave her. When she tells you she smokes, tell her you would appreciate it if she didn't, and offer her incentives to stop. But I wouldn't use threats.

Infidelity is quite another matter, of course, but I think she has gone a long way just to have told you about it. I don't think she wants to make a habit of cheating on you, but she doesn't want you to threaten to kick her out either. I may sound naive on this point, but I would try to create a non-threatening environment for her first, and then see if she cheats on you.

There are two essential conditions that you must follow if you want her to negotiate with you honestly. They must be safe and enjoyable. In other words, when you negotiate you should never threaten her with punishment, or make the negotiations unpleasant for her. Instead, you should be willing to allow her to do whatever she wants if you have not reached an agreement, without recrimination.



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5016_qa.html


Add this to your meeting of her needs and eliminating Love Busters, (HT)HL.


I'm trying to extract the takeaway here from this quote. I don't know that my wife is a "get out of trouble liar." I mean, it is a version of that but not exactly the same thing. First of all there is no trouble because I usually don't say a thing in order to keep the peace, and second of all the manner in which she is dishonest is more about projecting everything to others or to conditions that really don't exist.

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Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Quote:
The way to help an "avoid trouble" liar learn to be truthful is to focus attention on honesty and ignore everything else for a while. I encourage such people to tell the truth in return for their spouses not telling them what to do. In other words, minimize the consequences of the acts that they are afraid will get them into trouble. Instead of trying to punish your wife for going back on her promises, I would put more emphasis on safe and pleasant negotiation, where she is free to explain what she wants to do, and give you a chance to offer alternatives that are genuinely attractive to her.

What happens now is that she feels she is "made" to agree with you. You have told her that unless she does this or that, you will leave her. Even in the beginning, you explained that unless she stopped smoking, you would not even date her. She has learned to agree with anything and then do what she pleases to avoid a fight or being abandoned. But what if there were no fight? What if you wouldn't leave her? I recommend that you try to stop fighting with her, and you stop threatening to leave her. When she tells you she smokes, tell her you would appreciate it if she didn't, and offer her incentives to stop. But I wouldn't use threats.

Infidelity is quite another matter, of course, but I think she has gone a long way just to have told you about it. I don't think she wants to make a habit of cheating on you, but she doesn't want you to threaten to kick her out either. I may sound naive on this point, but I would try to create a non-threatening environment for her first, and then see if she cheats on you.

There are two essential conditions that you must follow if you want her to negotiate with you honestly. They must be safe and enjoyable. In other words, when you negotiate you should never threaten her with punishment, or make the negotiations unpleasant for her. Instead, you should be willing to allow her to do whatever she wants if you have not reached an agreement, without recrimination.



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5016_qa.html


Add this to your meeting of her needs and eliminating Love Busters, (HT)HL.


I'm trying to extract the takeaway here from this quote. I don't know that my wife is a "get out of trouble liar." I mean, it is a version of that but not exactly the same thing. First of all there is no trouble because I usually don't say a thing in order to keep the peace, and second of all the manner in which she is dishonest is more about projecting everything to others or to conditions that really don't exist.



So, what you are saying, is that you want to continue with Plan (HT)HL and argue with, ignore, and cherry pick the Marriage Builders advice as it suits your taste. Which has been successful in your 2 years(?) or more on this forum. You want to continue on this path, and hope it will fix your wife.

OK.

Good luck with that. I wish you all the luck in the world.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Quote:
The way to help an "avoid trouble" liar learn to be truthful is to focus attention on honesty and ignore everything else for a while. I encourage such people to tell the truth in return for their spouses not telling them what to do. In other words, minimize the consequences of the acts that they are afraid will get them into trouble. Instead of trying to punish your wife for going back on her promises, I would put more emphasis on safe and pleasant negotiation, where she is free to explain what she wants to do, and give you a chance to offer alternatives that are genuinely attractive to her.

What happens now is that she feels she is "made" to agree with you. You have told her that unless she does this or that, you will leave her. Even in the beginning, you explained that unless she stopped smoking, you would not even date her. She has learned to agree with anything and then do what she pleases to avoid a fight or being abandoned. But what if there were no fight? What if you wouldn't leave her? I recommend that you try to stop fighting with her, and you stop threatening to leave her. When she tells you she smokes, tell her you would appreciate it if she didn't, and offer her incentives to stop. But I wouldn't use threats.

Infidelity is quite another matter, of course, but I think she has gone a long way just to have told you about it. I don't think she wants to make a habit of cheating on you, but she doesn't want you to threaten to kick her out either. I may sound naive on this point, but I would try to create a non-threatening environment for her first, and then see if she cheats on you.

There are two essential conditions that you must follow if you want her to negotiate with you honestly. They must be safe and enjoyable. In other words, when you negotiate you should never threaten her with punishment, or make the negotiations unpleasant for her. Instead, you should be willing to allow her to do whatever she wants if you have not reached an agreement, without recrimination.



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5016_qa.html


Add this to your meeting of her needs and eliminating Love Busters, (HT)HL.


I'm trying to extract the takeaway here from this quote. I don't know that my wife is a "get out of trouble liar." I mean, it is a version of that but not exactly the same thing. First of all there is no trouble because I usually don't say a thing in order to keep the peace, and second of all the manner in which she is dishonest is more about projecting everything to others or to conditions that really don't exist.



So, what you are saying, is that you want to continue with Plan (HT)HL and argue with, ignore, and cherry pick the Marriage Builders advice as it suits your taste. Which has been successful in your 2 years(?) or more on this forum. You want to continue on this path, and hope it will fix your wife.

OK.

Good luck with that. I wish you all the luck in the world.


I don't believe I'm arguing with you at all HHH. I asked you to clarify the takeaway of a quote that you provided.

I don't want to fix my wife, nor can I fix my wife, only she has control of her own actions.

Look I came here to seek help on how to speak and react to my wife when she is dishonest. Complaining respectfully hasn't gotten me anywhere, or at least not very far. Plan B might be where this thing goes, but for the time being I want to be as close to perfect as possible. I have an unwilling partner that I'd like to "win back" if that is a feasible goal.

Would you agree that it is problematic that my wife is dishonest if I'm trying to win her back? Dr H wrote an entire section about it so I know that you do.

When my wife says something that bothers me and I say, "When you said that I need to put together the shelves asap that made me feel bad, I would appreciate if you asked me rather than told me what I need to do" and she replies, "I didn't say that" or "You just took it the wrong way" where do I go from there?

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So no concrete examples then?

I suppose you know what you mean yourself.


Good luck.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: HonestyLovebust
I would appreciate if you asked me rather than told me what I need to do" and she replies, "I didn't say that" or "You just took it the wrong way" where do I go from there?



OK an example!

Again, this is not dishonesty.

Its not PoJA, because she isn't listening to you. Its bad of course. Not listening to our spouses is lazy, but she can be motivated to listen to you.

The way to do that is do as we advised. Instead of a complaint about how you feel bad, cheerfully request something you would love. Keep it short and sweet and respect her right to say no.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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