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indiegirl #2758139 10/02/13 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Skyrims, I wondered how you were getting on with an agreement regarding Facebook?

I've advised your husband to get rid of his OS friends on there because you are not enthusiastic about that. However there seems to some mixed messages as though you don't feel it's fair to ask it of him?

Let me reassure you it is. Even if you WERE enthusiastic about his having OS friends - they are not good for marriages and should be eliminated.

In an ideal world, what would you like to see happen there?

What is the plan?

I really don't have a plan at this time. I have been struggling with the Facebook issue that is for sure. I guess having been involved in a relationship(previous marriage)where spouse then was very controlling and jealous, and I was not even allowed to go shopping, or anywhere with out him. As well as if I happen to look in a direction that he felt there was a male or something then there would be heck to pay. Also I had to give up all of my friends regardless of whether they were male or female, while he was able to have whomever he wanted as a friend. So I guess I just don't want to feel like I am doing that to my Husband now.

Yes I do think that some of the OS friends should go, maybe all, at least for now. I also have an issue with the way he wants to do it. He would like me to set down with him and go through his friends list and let him know which ones that I am not ok with. I guess I feel like he accepted these friends with out me or even telling me, and for some reason one of the most recent single ones feels comfortable enough as at to contact him privately. Maybe it is entirely innocent but I don't feel that it is. So when we had a discussion about this I asked him what kind of connection they made that she would feel it is ok to do this. He feels on his part none. I asked him how can you even get to know someone well enough to call them a friend in less than 2 weeks, and why did he feel like he should have accepted her request in the first place. He stated that during class or one of the breaks that people where asking who had facebook or not, so they new he did so he felt it would be rude or a jerk not to accept them as a friend when the requested. If that is the case then is he not going to be rude or a jerk to unfriend them?

In a perfect world, we would be and have been in the romantic love threshold, and we would be able to have OS friends to a point.

I guess my plan right now is that I need to continue to read the books and staying connected to MB's. As well as seeking some out side help for me personally, to help me with my dislike of my self and my self image.


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts



Thank you I did read the article.


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skyrim #2758148 10/02/13 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by skyrim
I guess having been involved in a relationship(previous marriage)where spouse then was very controlling and jealous, and I was not even allowed to go shopping, or anywhere with out him. As well as if I happen to look in a direction that he felt there was a male or something then there would be heck to pay. Also I had to give up all of my friends regardless of whether they were male or female, while he was able to have whomever he wanted as a friend. So I guess I just don't want to feel like I am doing that to my Husband now.


But this is not a sensible comparison. It isn�t controlling if your husband is WILLING to listen to you and your concerns! If he wants your help in making you comfortable, then for goodness sake offer it!

You must see that you are setting him up to fail if you don�t give him honest feedback BEFORE he makes a decision, but then you get naturally upset about it afterwards.

Right now you are saying: "I won't be honest with you about my feelings of jealousy in case you judge me badly for it."

Quite simply you are making a disrespectful judgement about his willingness to care for you and not trusting him enough to be honest with your feelings.

I am sure he realises jealousy is normal and natural - and to be honest it would be quite insulting if you were to tell your husband it was impossible for him to make you jealous! That would imply you didn't care much.

Where is the problem in sitting down with him in front of facebook and HELPING him understand exactly what it is you require in order to feel happy and enthusiastic about his actions? If you don�t he will remain uninformed and keep upsetting you, because he is not a mind reader.

Working together to row the boat = not controlling.

Originally Posted by skyrim
I guess my plan right now is that I need to continue to read the books and staying connected to MB's. As well as seeking some out side help for me personally, to help me with my dislike of my self and my self image.


The way people make themselves secure, is the same way we make our houses secure. If I had a broken window, my house would not be secure. I would not sleep well at night. If I fixed it up, my house would be secure and I would feel more secure too.

Currently your husband is making a few very silly boundary mistakes. He can be approached by anyone, at any time, on the internet and he mixes and socialises with single women of the OS.

This is like a broken window allowing bored strangers to intrude in your marriage stealing time and attention that belong to you. If you close it up, there will be no intruder and your marriage will be more secure. You will then FEEL secure. Feelings follow actions!


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

skyrim #2758149 10/02/13 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by skyrim
I asked him how can you even get to know someone well enough to call them a friend in less than 2 weeks, and why did he feel like he should have accepted her request in the first place. He stated that during class or one of the breaks that people where asking who had facebook or not, so they new he did so he felt it would be rude or a jerk not to accept them as a friend when the requested. If that is the case then is he not going to be rude or a jerk to unfriend them?
.


I have no problem believing this is what happened, Skyrim. This is what single people do. They have a lot of time on their hands and they need a strong network of friends to a) defeat boredom and b) to find someone. The best way to find someone is to make lots of friends. Their future spouse could be one of the new friends, or the new friends might introduce them to their future spouse.

Married people can't behave this way, picking up friends as indiscrimiately as picking daisies. For one thing, we owe our spouse at least 15 hours of UA time if we want them to be in love with us - there's not much time left over for messing around on FB. For another it's needlessly dangerous to mix with a lot of single, bored people who want their needs for affection or IC met online or who want to upgrade from their current boy/girlfriend. Thirdly, we shouldnt have friends our spouse dissapproves of, even if they are the same sex, so leaving the gate open to all and sundry is simply foolishness.

Originally Posted by skyrim
He stated that during class or one of the breaks that people where asking who had facebook or not, so they new he did so he felt it would be rude or a jerk not to accept them as a friend when the requested. If that is the case then is he not going to be rude or a jerk to unfriend them?


OK so he made a mistake in a situation he had not forseen. Therefore the two of you should plan what he should say next time this situation happens. I don't think either of you should be this accessible to complete strangers. It's a bad idea generally to have such little IT security and be open to the world anyway.

Would you both be willing to make your Facebook pages private, so that no one can search for either of you? If you want to add someone you have both PoJA'd, you can send them the link to your FB page so you are in full control of who who contacts you.

I once attended a seminar where lots of single people were swapping names with the aim of getting FB friends. I was a separated BW at the time and keeping high boundaries around the OS until I was divorced. When one man asked me how I spelled my rare surname, I foolishly told him because I had not prepared for such a situation and did not �want to seem rude and like a jerk� � just like your hubby. When I got home I changed my privacy settings so no one could contact me. I dealt better with it after that because I was prepared. There�s any number of things your husband could say.

�Oh I don�t have much time for it�
�My wife is really the one who checks things on Facebook for us�
�No, not really�
�I don�t do the whole online socialising thing�

Why dont you both sit down and PoJA a response to a woman's (or anyone's) FB approaches that would make you happy?


May I ask for what reason you both mainly use FB? Family etc?

Last edited by indiegirl; 10/02/13 07:27 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

indiegirl #2758150 10/02/13 07:36 AM
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Oh I just noticed I misunderstood your question - and Nobody notices being unfriended!

Besides, if he makes his page private, it will simply appear as if he's gotten bored of FB altogether and closed his account.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

skyrim #2758174 10/02/13 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by skyrim
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Skyrims, I wondered how you were getting on with an agreement regarding Facebook?

I've advised your husband to get rid of his OS friends on there because you are not enthusiastic about that. However there seems to some mixed messages as though you don't feel it's fair to ask it of him?

Let me reassure you it is. Even if you WERE enthusiastic about his having OS friends - they are not good for marriages and should be eliminated.

In an ideal world, what would you like to see happen there?

What is the plan?

I really don't have a plan at this time. I have been struggling with the Facebook issue that is for sure. I guess having been involved in a relationship(previous marriage)where spouse then was very controlling and jealous, and I was not even allowed to go shopping, or anywhere with out him.

That's horrible if it's one-sided - did you also get similar input into his activities? It's great if BOTH husband and wife are thoughtful enough to refrain from doing things that offend the other and patiently search for alternatives together when something needs to be done but a win-win solution hasn't been found yet.

Quote
As well as if I happen to look in a direction that he felt there was a male or something then there would be heck to pay.

Dr. Harley strictly opposes PUNISHMENT in marriage. Even if a spouse breaks the "rules," punishment is not the answer. (Protecting yourself by separation - the ultimate "do nothing" of the POJA - might be.)

Quote
Also I had to give up all of my friends regardless of whether they were male or female, while he was able to have whomever he wanted as a friend.

See that was the problem - he required you to be thoughtful toward him, but he was NOT thoughtful toward you. And he punished you when you messed up! He expected you to be telepathic and read his mind and punished you if you did something he wasn't enthusiastic about. Meanwhile, he went ahead and did whatever he wanted.

A relationship where both husband and wife are thoughtful toward each other is FANTASTIC! A relationship where one spouse is required to be thoughtful, punished if not, and the other spouse is completely thoughtless is SLAVERY.

Quote
So I guess I just don't want to feel like I am doing that to my Husband now.

There is nothing wrong with agreeing to be thoughtful toward each other. It's the way to build a successful marriage. It's a fair trade - it requires something from BOTH of you.

And he doesn't have to do that if he doesn't want to. If he doesn't want to be thoughtful toward you, he doesn't have to stay married to you.

A marriage where husband or wife or both are thoughtless on a regular basis, where on or both of them do whatever they want regardless of how the other spouse feels about it, is not worth keeping. It is hell on earth. Dr. Harley says whatever "exceptions" are carved out to allow a spouse to override the other's feelings in one area will eventually destroy a marriage.

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In a perfect world, we would be and have been in the romantic love threshold, and we would be able to have OS friends to a point.

That would be a bad idea, regardless. Nothing wrong with OS acquaintances, people you both know, with whom you do not discuss personal issues - but opposite sex private relationships where some woman is your husband's friend but not yours is an invitation for trouble.

EVEN IF you are past the romantic love threshold, an affair can still start and the contrast effect can still destroy a marriage.

Simple formula:
Unmet emotional needs (below the romantic love threshold) + no extraordinary precautions = AFFAIR
Unmet emotional needs + extraordinary precautions = NO AFFAIR
Met emotional needs (above the romantic love threshold) + extraordinary precautions = NO AFFAIR
Met emotional needs + no extraordinary precautions = AFFAIR

Quote
I guess my plan right now is that I need to continue to read the books and staying connected to MB's.

Are you guys listening to the daily radio show? This is the best resource for repairing your marriage!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2758176 10/02/13 09:49 AM
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Skyrim,

I want to caution you against bringing prior relationship baggage into other relationships. This husband is not your previous husband. Don't punish him for what someone else has done.


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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Skyrim,

I want to caution you against bringing prior relationship baggage into other relationships. This husband is not your previous husband. Don't punish him for what someone else has done.


I'm sorry but I object to this. Skyrim's objection to OS friends is perfectly reasonable. There is nothing wrong with learning something from one relationship and using that knowledge in the next.

When I first came here I agreed with everything except Dr Harley's stance on OS friendships. Which I though was archaic. However I sadly went on to learn he was right: that two intelligent, thoughtful and caring people (my friend and my husband) were vulnerable to an affair if they were allowed to have a close friendship separate from me. I wish I had known earlier.

I will never accept a need for any future husband to have close, intimate OS friendships that do not include me. This is not only because Dr Harley advises it, but because I have PERSONAL experience of exactly why it is such a bad idea!


That isnt baggage - it's called life experience.

Last edited by indiegirl; 10/02/13 11:39 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

skyrim #2758197 10/02/13 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by skyrim
In a perfect world, we would be and have been in the romantic love threshold, and we would be able to have OS friends to a point.

skyrim, spouses in a good marriage don't have OS friendships, though. My H and I don't have OS friendships and we are in love. We don't have them because we know they are not good for our marriage. All of our friends are couples.

Instead of going through his facebook contacts, why not just delete the page altogether and start up a COUPLES facebook page for you both? That way, you can avoid all the drama of unfriending people and inviting unneeded attention.

Quote
I really don't have a plan at this time. I have been struggling with the Facebook issue that is for sure. I guess having been involved in a relationship(previous marriage)where spouse then was very controlling and jealous, and I was not even allowed to go shopping, or anywhere with out him. As well as if I happen to look in a direction that he felt there was a male or something then there would be heck to pay. Also I had to give up all of my friends regardless of whether they were male or female, while he was able to have whomever he wanted as a friend. So I guess I just don't want to feel like I am doing that to my Husband now.

I hope you will agree that the instances of controlling behavior cited above should not be lumped in with Dr Harley's policy about no OS friendships? It is not "controlling" to eliminate OS friendships in marriage. It is what someone does when they implement extraordinary care in their marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Skyrim,

I want to caution you against bringing prior relationship baggage into other relationships. This husband is not your previous husband. Don't punish him for what someone else has done.


I'm sorry but I object to this. Skyrim's objection to OS friends is perfectly reasonable. There is nothing wrong with learning something from one relationship and using that knowledge in the next.

When I first came here I agreed with everything except Dr Harley's stance on OS friendships. Which I though was archaic. However I sadly went on to learn he was right: that two intelligent, thoughtful and caring people (my friend and my husband) were vulnerable to an affair if they were allowed to have a close friendship separate from me. I wish I had known earlier.

I will never accept a need for any future husband to have close, intimate OS friendships that do not include me. This is not only because Dr Harley advises it, but because I have PERSONAL experience of exactly why it is such a bad idea!


That isnt baggage - it's called life experience.

Where did I say anything about OS friends? I was referring to her taking about her testing him and responding to him in certain ways because of her ex.


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indiegirl #2758226 10/02/13 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by indiegirl
May I ask for what reason you both mainly use FB? Family etc?

We mainly started Facebook as a network with our friends, and to reconnect with high school friends and family that we had not seen in years. But since we are stationed overseas it has become a means to stay in touch with our immediate families, and friends back home. Also when we are apart we use it to keep in touch with each other through the chat program.



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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Skyrim,

I want to caution you against bringing prior relationship baggage into other relationships. This husband is not your previous husband. Don't punish him for what someone else has done.

I know an I am trying not to, it is just hard some times when I have heard or live through some of the same excuses as before. It just opens up old wounds again.

But you are right he does not deserve to be treated based on the past relationship.


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markos #2758232 10/02/13 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
Are you guys listening to the daily radio show? This is the best resource for repairing your marriage!

We have been listening some, probably not as much as we should. Could that be one of the things that we do during UA time during the week? Of course it would be a little different since it would not just be UA time for us, but it would be sort of that way since it would be just me and him listening.


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skyrim #2758234 10/02/13 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by skyrim
Originally Posted by markos
Are you guys listening to the daily radio show? This is the best resource for repairing your marriage!

We have been listening some, probably not as much as we should. Could that be one of the things that we do during UA time during the week? Of course it would be a little different since it would not just be UA time for us, but it would be sort of that way since it would be just me and him listening.

My opinion on that is no. The reason is because you can't meet each others needs or give each other UA when you are listening to a radio show. I know I would want my DH to be quiet while we listened. One show I would really, really like for you to listen to is this one: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159068&Number=2757785#Post2757785


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I hope you will agree that the instances of controlling behavior cited above should not be lumped in with Dr Harley's policy about no OS friendships? It is not "controlling" to eliminate OS friendships in marriage. It is what someone does when they implement extraordinary care in their marriage.

Thanks for stating that, because I have felt that the issue with OS friends would be just like my ex.(controlling), and I would never want to be that way with anyone. I also vowed that I would never let that happen to me again. So I guess I did not want to feel that I would be stooping as low as my ex. in the way I was treating my H now.


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I think listening to today's show could be of use to you.

There is a segment about accountability. Dr Harley tells the caller who doesn't feel comfortable "controlling" her H's computer use (porn). Dr Harley tells her that if either will not agree to being accountable for this issue, he doesn't think their M will make it.

I think your situation is parallel to this. You feel uncomfortable making your H accountable to you for this behavior but if it marriage-wrecking behavior doesn't stop, it will have a very negative consequence on your M.

It has already led to dishonesty and IB on the part of your H, AOs by you, fighting, etc. Not to mention it is extremely risky behavior.... Dr Harley says people who don't take extraordinary precautions to have an affair...will have one.



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SusieQ #2758493 10/04/13 02:06 AM
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Ok, still struggling here. I realize that it took us a long time for our relationship to get in the shape it is in, and that fixing it will take some time as well. Plus learning to do the things that we need to do, when it has been a long time since we have done any of these, or maybe never, takes practice. However how do you learn to implement these things, if you have never done them or don't know how.

For example, with the AO's and DJ's. People have stated to just stop doing them or having them. Well that is great advice, but how? If you are having a conversation and it has turned bad and all you have ever known was to disguise the pain with an offensive reaction such as AO or DJ, then it is not so easy just to stop. What am I suppose to do, just walk away, until I calm down, then try it again? That is part of the problem, there is never any returning to the topic of conversation.

After reading an article on MB about conversation, it made me realize that we are both guilty of the enemies of bad conversation,and I am very guilty of a couple of them. One of the main issues we have always had is conversation. Even when we first met and where just friends, my spouse did not talk much. He has never had a need for conversation. He has always been an introvert, and has always been one who if he feels that he does not have anything good to say, then he just does not talk. So I have always struggled with this area, because I am a extrovert and thrive on conversation and talking.

Also with the article it states that one of the enemies is dwelling on the past and past mistakes. Ok I do realize that is not good or healthy, but if there has never been a complete conversation with a resolution to any of the issues, then how am I suppose to let them go? It seems like nothing as ever been solved agreed upon, worked out. It has always been pushed under the rug.

I know that a lot of you have been doing these things for a long time and it seems so easy, but for a newbie, it does not. So if there are some good exercise, or suggestions, or hints on how to help me to stop doing things or to let go then please share. Please don't take offense or take it the wrong way, but telling me to just stop doing it, is easier said then done. So if you can share some of the things that some of you have done to help you to stop doing certain things that would be great.


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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Skyrim,

I want to caution you against bringing prior relationship baggage into other relationships. This husband is not your previous husband. Don't punish him for what someone else has done.


I'm sorry but I object to this. Skyrim's objection to OS friends is perfectly reasonable. There is nothing wrong with learning something from one relationship and using that knowledge in the next.

When I first came here I agreed with everything except Dr Harley's stance on OS friendships. Which I though was archaic. However I sadly went on to learn he was right: that two intelligent, thoughtful and caring people (my friend and my husband) were vulnerable to an affair if they were allowed to have a close friendship separate from me. I wish I had known earlier.

I will never accept a need for any future husband to have close, intimate OS friendships that do not include me. This is not only because Dr Harley advises it, but because I have PERSONAL experience of exactly why it is such a bad idea!


That isnt baggage - it's called life experience.

Where did I say anything about OS friends? I was referring to her taking about her testing him and responding to him in certain ways because of her ex.


Which is a good thing. Please do not refer to her valuable learning experiences as 'baggage'.

Before she had these valuable learning experiences she was entirely passive, ignored her alarm bells and anxieties and that did not work. She also learned from her ex husband that the other extreme - control - does not do much for the lovebank.

So her learning experiences have brought her here where she can learn proactive ways to find the right balance.

Its normal and natural for Skyrim to feel anxious and feel under threat in the place her marriage is in right now. It's right that she tells her husband his actions make her feel this way.

In the past she may have ignored this until the critical levels were reached. However her past relationships have intelligently increased her anxiety level so that inaction is not an option.

People who have been in bad relationships are more proactive at complaining and better at hearing alarm bells. And there ARE alarm bells here. Sky has accurately identified dangers and risks to her marriage.

That is why Skyrim came to MB to get help with some very real issues in her marriage.

I think she's doing great and it's all thanks to her common sense and life experience.

Last edited by indiegirl; 10/04/13 05:59 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

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skyrim #2758499 10/04/13 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by skyrim
Originally Posted by indiegirl
May I ask for what reason you both mainly use FB? Family etc?

We mainly started Facebook as a network with our friends, and to reconnect with high school friends and family that we had not seen in years. But since we are stationed overseas it has become a means to stay in touch with our immediate families, and friends back home. Also when we are apart we use it to keep in touch with each other through the chat program.


Then why don't you two stick to that plan? Make the page private so strangers can't reach you and only true f&f you've personally added can find you.

Originally Posted by skyrim
For example, with the AO's and DJ's. People have stated to just stop doing them or having them. Well that is great advice, but how? If you are having a conversation and it has turned bad and all you have ever known was to disguise the pain with an offensive reaction such as AO or DJ,


You aren't supposed to disguise your pain! If your spouse jabbed you accidentally with a fork - you wouldn't hide it would you? You'd ask him to stop waving forks around in future.

You are supposed to helpfully inform your spouse that you are in pain, and tell him how to avoid giving you pain.

Such as: "I'm not crazy about when you do x, it hurts my feelings. How would you feel about doing y instead?'. Be prepared to accept a 'no', or an 'I don't know'. Part of safe and cheerful negotiation is trusting our spouse to think things over in their own time.

Dr Harley says the best way to learn about safe and cheerful negotiation is to practice with something unimportant, to avoid heightened tensions.

One of his key recommendations is to go grocery shopping together. Negotiate everything that goes in the basket. Only PoJA'd items are allowed in. For example, Joyce doesn't allow sardines, which Dr Harley loves in her grocery basket. She hates the smell.

Obviously it doesn't matter if you fail at this or get stuck at PoJA, because it's just groceries and it's just practice. If you two do run into problems you can come back here for tweaking and tips for your negotiation skills.

In fact one very esteemed MB vet, (who shall remain nameless) who has a terrific marriage today, did not do so brilliantly in this test on the first practice run.

It's all practice.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

skyrim #2758502 10/04/13 07:02 AM
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To just stop is what a lot of us did. You recognize that you're getting angry and you say, "I'm sorry but I need to take a break from this conversation." Go take a walk if needed and you return to the conversation later. It's not easy at the beginning. You're going to have a slip up. But it will become easier and become normal.

All of us had bad marriages before we came here. My wife did a ton of stuff that was hurtful. However, as we worked this program and she/I quit doing the habits that were hurtful, the past became just the past. When the present is excellent and you're looking forward to the future, you don't want to go back to the past. Y'all will get there.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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