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#2774201 01/06/14 03:53 PM
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So here is the update.

I went to a neighboring town with her (which in ak means a long drive), and spend a bit of time in the car with her as well as eating meals together and sharing a hotel room (with separate full beds). I was very careful to keep the topics on task and specifically talk about how MB principles could be implemented to reconcile.

Here is what I've learned:

EP: She owned her involvement and agrees that it was a significant factor and is willing to put in place extraordinary precautions. Her definition of this is not having male friends, male facebook friends, not communicating with men in the store, no phone number, etc. She is not on board with eliminating being away overnight (more on this later).

Meeting needs: She says that she met my needs (which is largely true) and wants me to meet her needs. She says she wants to focus on our family and doing things together.

Love busters: She agrees that we need to eliminate love busters, but she did LB me a few times. Most of the time caught it and changed her tune.

POJA: She agrees that we should agree on things and find things to do together, but I don't think she is on board with not doing anything at the expense of the other. Here is why:

She is in school right now and will be required to work/travel 12 hours a day for 9 months next fall. This amount of time will almost certainly come at my expense if we are together. If she doesn't do it, then she looses what she has been working very hard towards accomplishing. I can see her dilemma. What would you have me do? She asks. Would I ask her to give up her goals so that she can spend time with me all the while being resentful that I required her to give up her education? That isn't going to work nor is it POJA. The other side of the coin is me supporting her being gone pretty much all of the time and taking care of the family while wondering who she is talking to, while supporting the family fiscally and domestically.

Another issue is that she wants to travel abroad this summer so that she can get a second language which makes her education much more valuable. Again, she would be very upset if I asked her to skip that (and won't do it), but if she does it then we aren't going to see each other for a few months while I sit and wonder what is going on, again taking all of the family responsibility.

So looking at POJA, asking her to not finish her education is lame and it certainly isn't going be mutual and neither of us want that, but pressing forward is going to require extended periods of time away from each other, which certainly isn't something I'm on board with either, especially when I know what the end result is. At best people drifting away, and worst, another affair.

There are other issues that we don't agree on that are just as polarizing. I know that POJA is the only way to have a happy marriage, but I wonder if it takes more than that. Certainly both would need to prioritize marriage over everything else, but what about common goals and world view. We just aren't aligned on the direction of our family, and to make things even more difficult, she can be very polar about her decisions. Most things are all or nothing. She won't be happy with any compromises, such as giving up the second language and just getting her degree.

In the end I don't see it working. I don't want to ask her to give up school, but I'm not ok with her having minimal availability for 9 months, and no availability for 3 more.

That isn't the MB way, and I don't see myself at all happy with that situation.

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Originally Posted By: ak1

In the end I don't see it working. I don't want to ask her to give up school, but I'm not ok with her having minimal availability for 9 months, and no availability for 3 more.

That isn't the MB way, and I don't see myself at all happy with that situation.


I agree. The issue is not really her education, but that she places everything before your marriage. Anything that comes before your marriage will eventually come between you. Her occupation, hobbies, everything, should complement your marriage, not harm it.

It sounds to me like she doesn't have time for marriage, so it is probably best she remain single.

Since you are in a position to be very selective, I would pass on this candidate, since you could never be happy under the conditions she presented. I would tell her thanks, but no thanks. You can do so much better!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Acey talked to her school back in the 70s and they let her finish her degree remotely, this was way before online classes and all that. What happened to the brainstorming with abandon?


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I totally agree.

You do not need to go down that route with a WW who doesn't put a marriage with you first in her life. She isn't an ex WW at this point. You are not number one with her....SHE is number one with her.

Sorry.

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What is the status of your custody agreement?
How many kids and ages?

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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Acey talked to her school back in the 70s and they let her finish her degree remotely, this was way before online classes and all that. What happened to the brainstorming with abandon?

Thanks for the update, ak1!

I agree with NED - with all the online courses available, could she complete her studies online? And if it's an internship, she could do it locally. You said you live in a 'large town/city" in your state. Surely there are classes locally (or online) and internships available there.

As to traveling overseas, this could wait until you can both go together - and for a shorter time. For the record, I know several languages, and it takes much longer than 3 months to acquire any language proficiency. But you could do 2 week trips (together) each year to gain a little bit, without jeopardizing the relationship. Or, Rosetta Stone - it's really good.

As to POJA - you don't 'ask' her to give up anything. BUT you tell her when you aren't enthusiastic about something. This is the cue to begin negotiating a solution that would make you both happy...which probably means her first idea won't be "the One."

If she is unwilling to give up overnights away (i.e. you not accompanying her), this sounds like a direct conflict with EPs. Can you talk to her about this further?


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So many great replies to AK.

Your Ex is saying she is going to exercise the EP's you are demanding, yet she wants to live an independent lifestyle. It won't work. What kind of mom leaves her family for 3 months and is unavailable for 9? She's not ready to commit to a MB kind of marriage. That's her prerogative. Too bad. A family is a terrible thing to lose.

It's good that you are seeing this clearly, AK. Sorry things aren't more promising with your ex.

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AK, it's possible for a FWW to come around and become a very faithful, MB principles-following wife. I'm a FWW - I can tell you that when I was trying so very hard to save my marriage, there is NOTHING I wouldn't have done. Quit my job, move, whatever it took I was ready and willing.

She has to want it more than you. Her priorities are all out of order.

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Originally Posted By: Zhamila

Thanks for the update, ak1!

I agree with NED - with all the online courses available, could she complete her studies online? And if it's an internship, she could do it locally. You said you live in a 'large town/city" in your state. Surely there are classes locally (or online) and internships available there.


Unfortunately, no, the situation is such that locally is an hour drive away. It's pretty much all or nothing from what I can tell.

Originally Posted By: Zhamila

As to traveling overseas, this could wait until you can both go together - and for a shorter time. For the record, I know several languages, and it takes much longer than 3 months to acquire any language proficiency. But you could do 2 week trips (together) each year to gain a little bit, without jeopardizing the relationship. Or, Rosetta Stone - it's really good.


She has already taken a lot of classes regarding the language, and can speak it well enough to communicate and thinks that an immersion program will polish it up a bit and make it much more useful.

Originally Posted By: Zhamila

As to POJA - you don't 'ask' her to give up anything. BUT you tell her when you aren't enthusiastic about something. This is the cue to begin negotiating a solution that would make you both happy...which probably means her first idea won't be "the One."

If she is unwilling to give up overnights away (i.e. you not accompanying her), this sounds like a direct conflict with EPs. Can you talk to her about this further?


I don't think she has a MB compatible view on marriage, she emailed last night and said she needs to have individual time. Here is what she said:

Quote:
Can you hold a commitment to supporting individual goals of each of ours while also prioritizing together-interests?


Basically she feels like she sacrificed herself early in the marriage and allowed me to meet my goals (and I took advantage of that), and now wants me to do the same for her, which makes sense, but I think she misses that her goals involve much more time away, and post affair, so it doesn't work for me.

Yea, just doesn't look like it will work out.

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AK ... My WxH is out and about at the moment. He is off advancing his career, bacheloring himself around, and being oh the whore he set himself up to be. It's quite disgusting to watch, and the most heartbreaking thing to live because we have many small kids together.

WxH has had a couple brief moments where he would say to me, "I'll do whatever it is to fix this." What he was really saying was this.

"Home just let me sow my wild oats, travel the world, whore around with sexy women, get my career where it needs to be, and then I plan to come back and be the father/husband you want."

He seems to get lonely quite a bit while sowing his oats, hence his need to send me an email telling me he'll do whatever for as long as needed. Then I tell him he knows what needs to be done to fix it, and poof he's back out in bachelor world again. He's too lazy to do the hard work to recover his family.

I say thanks but no thanks ... and as much as I wish for my family to be intact it is that kind of rampant selfishness that would destroy me.

I looked at some old pictures of myself during the marriage on Sunday. Man I was fat ... I looked at my face and it was a face of a woman just getting by ... a woman who struggled for years just to get her husband to put down his selfishness for once and recognize me.

Dr. Harley once told me that my WxH's selfishness would always be the anchor that sunk anyone he is near.

I understand exactly what he means now ... my WxH is all about him and that won't change. As much as I wish with all my heart he'd grow a heart and want me and his many kids. He won't ... he's not going to change. Not for me, not for his kids, not for anyone.

I have to move on and go through the painstakingly tedious task of dating, finding another person to love me. Although it's exhausting and frustrating in all honesty it is still better than being with someone whose selfishness will always be that anchor around my neck.

Life is a million times better than living a life with someone who doesn't care for me.

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Ak, I went to school an hour away, stacked up my classes to two days a week, 7am to 3pm, and was home to get my kid from aftercare every day. With a newborn lol. It wasn't easy but it made my job prospects so much better when I was done.

Or maybe you were thinking about moving out of the area anyway.

Quote:
like she sacrificed herself early in the marriage and allowed me to meet my goals (and I took advantage of that), and now wants me to do the same for her, which makes sense,


This is old renter mentality, and you both have better thinking to offer.


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Ak,

What is your custody like?
Age of kids etc

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Her responses are very telling.

Is the goal here to reconcile or see if she is up for it?

Curious if plan B was every used here.


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Originally Posted By: ak1
[

Basically she feels like she sacrificed herself early in the marriage and allowed me to meet my goals (and I took advantage of that), and now wants me to do the same for her, which makes sense, but I think she misses that her goals involve much more time away, and post affair, so it doesn't work for me.

Yea, just doesn't look like it will work out.


ak1, I agree with you. The issue is not this one thing, her school, but her entire philosophy of marriage. Her philosophy of marriage will not support any marriage and is very likely to lead to more affairs. I am glad to see you taking a pass. You can find someone who does have a compatible view of marriage that can make you happy.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: ak1
[

Basically she feels like she sacrificed herself early in the marriage and allowed me to meet my goals (and I took advantage of that), and now wants me to do the same for her, which makes sense, but I think she misses that her goals involve much more time away, and post affair, so it doesn't work for me.

Yea, just doesn't look like it will work out.


ak1, I agree with you. The issue is not this one thing, her school, but her entire philosophy of marriage. Her philosophy of marriage will not support any marriage and is very likely to lead to more affairs. I am glad to see you taking a pass. You can find someone who does have a compatible view of marriage that can make you happy.


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ak1,
You shouldn't have to ask it of her, she should voluntarily want to do WHATEVER it takes...the thrust is all the difference in the world. Wanting to save the family/marriage and put you at ease should be her primary goal.

It's not so that's your answer.


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Originally Posted By: ak1
[

I don't think she has a MB compatible view on marriage, she emailed last night and said she needs to have individual time. Here is what she said:

Quote:Can you hold a commitment to supporting individual goals of each of ours while also prioritizing together-interests?


ak1, what is interesting is that she learned nothing from the demise of your marriage. She has the same destructive philosophy of marriage that destroyed your marriage: her individual goals come before your marriage. She wants an independent lifestyle more than she wants a happy, integrated marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

ak1, what is interesting is that she learned nothing from the demise of your marriage. She has the same destructive philosophy of marriage that destroyed your marriage: her individual goals come before your marriage. She wants an independent lifestyle more than she wants a happy, integrated marriage.


It's interesting, before the affair I pursued my goals and she encouraged me to do so, frequently at her expense. She was ok with this because her philosophy on marriage is that two people encourage each other's desires and goals so that they together can achieve more.

After the affair, it's like she wants the same thing, but the opposite, she wants me to happily encourage her to pursue her goals at my expense. I think she misses that the typical outcome is an affair. She probably views that as a separate issue, one that would would be resolved with EP, though she doesn't take EP far enough to include giving up individual goals.

I tried to explain that this won't work regardless of who is doing it, but I don't think she can see it.

At any rate, I spoke with her a bit more last night over text and her responses are very telling:

Originally Posted By: exWW

Can you hold a commitment to supporting individual goals of each of ours while also prioritizing together-interests?


Me:

Yes, as long as we are in enthusiastic agreement about the goals.

Without enthusiastic agreement it's too easy for our goals to come at the expense or discomfort of each other which breeds resentment and and potentially even unfaithfulness.

With enthusiastic agreement it is natural to be excited about accomplishments in each other's goals, encourage each other, while eliminating resentment.

Her Response:
Originally Posted By: exWW

Well, I see your point, and will remind you that you are unable to be enthusiastically supportive of my school/internship schedule. Since I am holding to that goal, your choice is clear.

Thank you for your time.


I told her if she can think of ways to address both of our concerns then let me know.

Her response was more or less telling me she can't believe I wouldn't be on board, and that she feels like she would be constantly letting me down, that my complaining about it would lead the children to disrespect and devalue her (they have their own issues with what she wants to do, but off course it's my fault they feel that way since I'm not encouraging her).

She asks what part of her I do support that isn't based on fear, manipulation, or drudgery, that she can't do anything about it without quitting, and that she won't "undermine herself by sacrificing something so paramount to her individuation, self-esteem, and personal growth for someone who does not value that individuation enough to support it."

Now in the past I have slipped and complained in front of the kids, so I know that would make things way worse and no longer talk to her in front of the kids. It's a huge LB that I've worked very hard to eliminate. That said, I don't think she understands that they feel the same way about her "individuation" as the problem couldn't possibly be her goals, it must be the rest of our poor attitudes, and selfishness to not support her.

As for custody, it's like this:

I have two sons with her 14, and 12. The 14yo is a people pleaser and goes back and forth, and the 12yo is very strong willed and bitter with her. He gives her a very hard time, so just before the divorce she told him he can live with me. She later changed it to she sees him every other weekend before it was final, but he hates that I make him go over there and wants me to get it changed. He is upset because he feels abandoned and replaced since she adopted our foster child 2 days after the divorce.

It's a mess. I really wish she could be a buyer, but she isn't. It's time to move on.... again....

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So sorry, ak1.

frown


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What a kind thing to say. Even though I don't know you, nor do you know me, it's obvious that you care, and I appreciate it.

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