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Originally Posted By: bac07

he has seen something in her and realises the process isnt finished and so found a space on his retreat in two weeks time and another space on his retreat in april and has used flyer miles to get her there.

can someone outline the definition of unfaithfulness for me?


Welcome to marriage builders. You bet he has seen something in her and likely she has too. She is likely over riden with guilt too right now. I (personally)think he is manipulating her at the very least. Don't buy it. Snoop man. Don't ask if she's cheating. Find out for yourself.

She already wants to leave you and is trying to do so in a manner that let's her leave without guilt. You gunna let some dude whisp your wife away to his "retreat" without putting up a fight? How caring is that?

The definition of unfaithfulness is what you make it. There is an article here called what is an affair. You should read it. If your uncomfortable with her interactions with this "teacher" then its unfaithfulness.

MNG

P.s. Don't be a door mat and don't think for a second that you wouldn't get liked to and played. Because if it is an affair they will do their darnedness to make it look like its not.

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Originally Posted By: bac07
so my post didnt come through or went somewhere else ill rewrite.

Ive read through the basics. The information about an EA does seem a possibiility. whether thats with her teacher or a...spiritual experience I dont know. not sure if thats possible.

It does appear that she is unable to come to me for her emotional needs now. This is a place to start if she is willing (is that necessary?). I can work on building trust and work through my giver and conflict/withdrawl state and her taker withdrawl state. I can also talk to her about an agreement, undivided attention and complete honesty. although the honesty part she says she is there already and being completely honest.

If anyone is able to share how they have approached these conversations I think that might be helpful. I realise every person and relationship is individual but an idea of how these conversations came about may be useful.


I would tell her this:

"Wife, I love you and have committed to you for life. I do not want to lose our marriage. I don't want you going on a spiritual journey without me - I want to go with you together. I'm not enthusiastic about you seeing or contacting {spiritual teacher} again. He is harming our marriage and our spiritual journey."

Then I would contact spiritual teacher and I would tell him this:

"Stay away from my wife or else I am going to make your life miserable. If our marriage goes to divorce I will haul you into court and have you testify as to your exact role in the breakdown of our marriage."
The message you give him should sound something like this:


I would find this guy's wife and family and anyone important in his life (including spiritual leaders and spiritual followers) and let them know what he is doing with your wife. He will likely slither away like the insect that he is.

Instead of assuming there is not an affair, you should verify that there is not an affair. You should become so close to your wife that she could not possibly have an affair without your knowledge. You should be monitoring her communications and not letting her go on trips without you - you should be right there getting the information. Hire a private eye if she tries to hide anything from you.

Get the TRUTH. If you want to take a spiritual journey, build it on TRUTH.

Take the TRUTH about what is happening to everybody that is important in your wife's life and the spiritual predator's life.

Last edited by markos; 02/13/14 02:41 PM.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Well, you can't work on building trust unless you snoop and find out how far her "relationship" has gone.


Trust will be something that you feel when two things happen:
* she acts trustworthily
* your investigations prove she is acting trustworthily

Right now neither of those things is happening.

Anything else is not really trust, even if you try to call it that. I call it whistling in the dark or self-deception.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted By: bac07
and i mean support, she was barely functioning after retreat


This is most likely because she began an affair with him during the retreat and was eaten up with guilt and conflicting emotions.

It's a good sign that your marriage can be recovered if you ACT and don't bury your head in the sand.

How badly do you want to stay married to her? If you are not willing to start looking into the truth yourself instead of telling yourself what to believe, I would just file for divorce and take her out of your life, because she will be a source of depression to you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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bac, watch the movie Temptation: Confessions of a Marriage Counselor by Tyler Perry. You will see exactly why your wife was barely functional after she came back from the retreat.

Your wife is on a journey into spiritual darkness. A spiritually positive journey would not destroy a marriage.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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bac, read through this first article from Dr. Harley on Conflicts of Faith in marriage, and see if it doesn't ring any bells:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5039_qa.html


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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**EDIT**

moderators note: please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders material before posting advice to others. Any questions, shoot me an email.

Last edited by Denali; 02/13/14 06:54 PM. Reason: TOS non MB material
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Originally Posted By: Missy80
**EDIT**


Missy80 - what does the above mean? What is spiritual agreement? Dr. Harley discusses the Policy of Joint Agreement, but I've never heard of spiritual agreement.

And our goal in marriage is not to avoid conflict; rather, we negotiate our conflicts. Conflicts, or differences of opinions, are inevitable. The Harleys say they have conflicts at least once every hour. But they negotiate. That's what's advocated in MB.

Last edited by Denali; 02/13/14 06:54 PM. Reason: removing quote

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Missy - please start a thread of your own and tell us your story. It's a violation of the social norms around here to just sign up and dispense advice off the bat.

Last edited by markos; 02/13/14 05:38 PM.

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I thought i would get some advice on the letter i have written. I plan to have this as a conversation with my wife and also give it to her as a letter.
Markos, that article is bang on - the transformation stuff.
thoughts would be appreciated on if my letter aligns with marriagebuilders principles.

To my love,

I understand your need to be alone. I understand that you have had a deep transformational experience and that this has been hugely difficult for you. I agree. We should separate from our marriage.
You have been dealing with this idea for 6 weeks whereas I have had only 4 days to process this seperation that you are certain about. I ask for the time and understanding to experience the full impact of the emotions I have. I ask for wisdom of understanding if I am angry or speak without thought. I love you and I do not wish to be in conflict. Please understand that this is the most emotionally painful experience of my life. I wish to have the space to be mindful of my thoughts feelings and actions so that I can hold a space for your feelings, experience and emotions. I feel that this will enable us to work through positively this together.
This doesnt matter now as we are where we are. I feel I should say it. Last year was heavy. I get that. I was very unwell. Depression and panic attacks caused by giardia, losing job, us moving to here, coping with that. I think we lost track of nurturing ourselves and our relationship and just worked on our life. I respect your strength and am thankful that you supported us emotionally and financially last year. I am deeply pained that we did not see this hidden undercurrent sooner so that we might have explored alternative options.

Right now you mention you just want to be alone. You want solitude. I understand, I am open to this. Yet it is not what I see. I see you spending time alone, in solitude, in the park, meditating. Then you retreat into the emotional support of INSERTNAME. I observe this in you constantly checking your phone to see if he has contacted, the countless hours on the phone or in chat to him, the 2:30 am emails, the constant and long writing to him. The sending him a cd and your reluctance to tell me. I ask that you sit with this observation. I see your emotional retreat from our marriage to INSERTNAME in securing your laptop and your phone with passwords. You have emotionally disconnected from our love and our relationship. The lack of trust you have suddenly developed has been one of the most painful things I have ever experienced. Your inability and more so your lack of attempts to try and explain this experience has been particularly hurtful. You say you cant explain yet you are able to send INSERTNAME emails explaining what is happening. I feel you are having an emotional affair with INSERTNAME. I do not believe it to be malicious. I believe it is with good intent to process and understand your experience however I still feel it to be an emotional affair. I feel the boundary-less relationship you have with INSERTNAME has been a catalyst to the destruction of our marriage. It has meant that you have emotionally checked out from any honest and open communications about your feelings and experiences with me. As such you are retreating further and further into INSERTNAMEs emotional support and this emotional disconnect also means you no longer feel intimate with me. I feel pain and tension and my body recoils when I think about your emotional relationship with INSERTNAME and your emotional checking out from our relationship. It feels dangerous to not only our relationship but to you as an individual who want to be alone to explore the dhamma. I feel you are creating a dependent teacher student relationship much like that of traditional monastic monks/nuns. I dont feel you can explore the dhamma or your deep intuitive insight with this level of attachment to INSERTNAME.
The pull of the Dhamma has grabbed you. That is fantastic and I support you fully in your exploration of this. I understand your need for support from people who have had this experience and understand it.
I would ask, as someone who loves you with all their heart, and if you love me as you say that look to other teachers from the same lineage with the right experience to guide you in your dhamma and insight experience. The truth of the dhamma and the deep insight it brings is available from other teachers as readily as INSERTNAME. INSERTNAME mentioned to me that he felt he couldnt be a teacher to me because the nuances of face to face contact were lost via email. If this is the case then he should be offering the same advice to you. I would ask you to explore the Buddhist library and other teachers that you can have a face to face relationship with. Youre intimate emotional relationship with INSERTNAME is incredibly painful for me.

I also struggle with your talk about how you have completely changed and that all previous you was swept away. I see you interacting with friends, listening to music, watching tv shows, drinking wine and dancing as before. I see you act in the same and loving maternal way towards Mango. The only difference I feel has happened is a complete disconnect from our relationship. I feel incredible heaviness and pain in my chest over this contradiction.
I respect your experience and am trying incredibly hard to understand the feeling of it in a non-conceptual way. I would like to meet your needs to practice by offering some solutions to our financial situation.

1. Mum and dad buy you out of the mortgage and support me financially for the rest of the year. This enables you to do the deep practice you need. I ask that you find a 1-1 teacher that is not INSERTNAME for this.
2. Mum and dad pay half the mortgage and bills and support me financially. This takes the pressure and removes the stress of finance of being in Sydney. This would also allow us to make time to be with each other and for you to remain in Sydney without the stress or need for a fulltime job.
I would like to build honest and open communication with you. I feel we have lost this and it is something of ours I value greatly.
I would like a joint agreement of how this seperation works and I would like the things in it to be items we are both enthusiastic about. I feel by coming up with items that we are both enthusiastic about we can meet both our emotional needs.
I am enthusiastic see a relationship counsellor that we both connect with and one who has a spiritual understanding or background. I approach this openly and honestly.
I do not feel we should see or sleep with other people as this would be particularly painful for me and devastating to my mental health.
I feel that we should be intimate if the feelings arises and ask that we explore that part of our relationship together, openly, if it comes up.
I would like to keep wearing our wedding rings as a symbol of our love and a tool to help ground you in your experience. Similar to the grounding effect Mango has.
I will use this seperation to nurture myself as I feel that necessary and important and something I have neglected to do. I ask that you do the same and that we also make the space and time to nurture our relationship. I am enthusiastic to explore where our relationship leads from here.

I love you.

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Separations of any kind are not going to nurture anything other than a desire for divorce. I'd you want to save your marriage, condense that into a two paragraph letter that essentially says, "I suspect you're engaged in Ann inappropriate relationship with Guru Dingleberry. I do not want to give up on our marriage and will fight this affair with every breath I have."


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Bac, you put a lot of thought into that, and I'm sure it has some relief of allowing you to express your thoughts. However, I'm going to strongly suggest you don't use it.

Here's why:

She isn't going to care. She doesn't really care that she is hurting you (if she did, she wouldn't do this), you can't educate her when she's high on the delusion of being with another man, and she is so inherently selfish right now that you could be hit by a bus and she wouldn't notice.

Did you read this?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5039_qa.html

"So she did what she had to do, she withdrew from you, and found others that would meet her emotional needs. These people who met her needs happened to believe in new age philosophy, but it could have been almost anything. One of them, the man you refer to in your letter, probably did more than the rest to meet her emotional needs, so it's likely that she has fallen in love with him. As a result of her relationship with those who met her needs, she has adopted their system of beliefs.

As long as her emotional needs are being met by these friends, it will be impossible for you to dissuade her of her beliefs. Notice how she tells you that it "feels right." What feels right is that her emotional needs that had not been met by you are now being met by her friends -- by her male friend in particular. Who can argue with that?

You won't be able to meet her needs at first, while she is in withdrawal. First, you must prove to her that you are a safe and pleasant person to be around. Then she will slowly come out of her defensive shell and give you opportunities to re-connect with her. "

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Most of all - separation - will be the kiss of death to your marriage. I think Dr. Harley would advise you that he has never found a wife who fell back in love by being AWAY from her husband. That is leaving the door open for this new man to seal the deal.

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That plan you outlined in your letter will only make sure you don't win her back. You need to let her know that you will do what it takes to work on a marriage that's a "spiritual experience" itself, so to speak. Ask her if you don't already know what she needs in your marriage. It looks to me as though you don't have a job and she's been supporting you financially and now you're turning to your parents to support you. Is that the way it is? If so, let her know you are going to look for a job and find a way to provide financial support.

Don't tell her you feel she's having an emotional affair, tell her it bothers you that she's spending so much time with another man. Meanwhile, get your evidence that this is an affair, for that is what it is. Dr. Harley talks about undivided attention time which allows a marriage to grow. It also allows an affair to develop. As you can see, she's spending a lot of UA time with other man. It's an affair and you need to do your part to kill the affair before you'll even have a chance to win back your wife's affections.

Look at MelodyLane's sig link on killing affairs.
Here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2566583#Post2566583


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Not a good idea to send that letter. First off, it is way too long. If you want to be understood, then brevity is the answer. More words is visual pollution, especially to a person who is emotionally detached. And the purpose of the letter: separation and accusing her of an emotional affair with no evidence are destructive tactics.

Why not put aside your own ideas and listen to the people here?


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Can you get some spy resources in place?


Please answer. If you don't stop talking and start listening, your M isn't going to make it.

You've been told what to do. Plan A and start snooping

Last edited by SusieQ; 02/14/14 09:54 AM.

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Originally Posted By: alis
Bac, you put a lot of thought into that, and I'm sure it has some relief of allowing you to express your thoughts. However, I'm going to strongly suggest you don't use it.

Here's why:

She isn't going to care.


I am going to add to it that it is way too long. She is never going to read it. Your effort will be wasted.

You'll need to get her attention with more than just words. You'll need action. Integrate yourself into her life and meet emotional needs, and stand up for your marriage (find out the truth, as I described, and confront the problem: the relationship with this other man).


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
And the purpose of the letter: separation and accusing her of an emotional affair with no evidence are destructive tactics.


Please pay very close attention to this.

You do not need to prove to her that she is having an emotional affair. Instead you need to get busy taking action about the affair. Don't have a debate with her.

Quote:
Why not put aside your own ideas and listen to the people here?


Please follow up on our suggestions. We have seen variants of your scenario before.

Did you read the links I posted?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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bac, one impression I'm getting is that you have not been providing very much financial support for your wife. This is an important emotional need for a typical woman. I encourage you to pursue a plan to upgrade your career or start a new one. (As long as you do not do it at the expense of your marriage.) This is probably important!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Hi guys.

a couple of things i should have cleared up.
1. I havent put any spy resources in place. my observations are in the above letter. there is no more to it that what i have listed as the guy doesnt live here. he lives overseas. He will be here in two weeks to run a retreat she is now going on.
2. I was planning on having this letter as a conversation.
3. the reason she has been financially supporting us is that we made the decision for me to study so that I can more stably financially support us when we start a family. we both had great jobs before we moved.
4. someone mentioned not calling it an affair? Doesnt Dr Harley suggest to call it for what it is in the infidelity info?
5. seperation at this moment looks like staying in the same apartment until she finds a job working somewhere else.
6. markos I did have a read.


Ok, you all have really valid points.
How do I make our marriage a safe space if she has withdrawn and just wants to go? she doesnt want to do anything together. wants to spend all her time meditating and communicating with this guru

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