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Her story about her work emails stinks. I have checked her personal phone / personal email and there are no phone calls or emails or texts to them... but I know you can delete those as well.
The only thing I can't check is her work stuff and she has to be willing to let me see it. Again I think she would now if I pushed for it. Is her phone password locked? Do you have access to her phone records? I would stop grilling her about these men and start getting serious about snooping . If you don't, I predict that you will not make any progress in your M. And your W will continue to not want to spend time with you, because she is not in love with you - she is getting her needs met elsewhere. If you are not going to take the advice about snooping, that is fine but please let us know. I have limited time to post these days and I would prefer to help someone that is interested in learning/following MB.
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Her story about her work emails stinks. I have checked her personal phone / personal email and there are no phone calls or emails or texts to them... but I know you can delete those as well.
The only thing I can't check is her work stuff and she has to be willing to let me see it. Again I think she would now if I pushed for it. Is her phone password locked? Do you have access to her phone records? I would stop grilling her about these men and start getting serious about snooping . If you don't, I predict that you will not make any progress in your M. And your W will continue to not want to spend time with you, because she is not in love with you - she is getting her needs met elsewhere. If you are not going to take the advice about snooping, that is fine but please let us know. I have limited time to post these days and I would prefer to help someone that is interested in learning/following MB. Susie, I have been looking and keeping my eye on things... the only thing I have not seen is the work email... I will work on this.
Last edited by MySacredMarriage; 05/29/14 12:22 PM.
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The thing that I noticed about people who post the level of detail that you have provided (extensive background etc) is that they seem to not realize that their WS and situation is just like everyone else who posts here with a WS.
Your situation is not special. You have a WS (SSL + IB + poor boundaries around members of opposite sex) It doesn't even really matter if this was an almost EA, EA or PA. Your WW had crossed the line several times and if this is not nipped in the bud, you are going to be looking at the affair continuing with either or both of these men or another A into the future.
How do I nip this in the bud, you may be asking? Stop grilling her and talking to her about "trust" with the counselor and start snoop, while meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs.
When you have a spouse that has a history of a SSL and As, that is the only way you are going to know what is going on. And without proof, all she's going to do is deny deny and deny which you have already seen.
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Her story about her work emails stinks. I have checked her personal phone / personal email and there are no phone calls or emails or texts to them... but I know you can delete those as well.
The only thing I can't check is her work stuff and she has to be willing to let me see it. Again I think she would now if I pushed for it. Is her phone password locked? Do you have access to her phone records? I would stop grilling her about these men and start getting serious about snooping . If you don't, I predict that you will not make any progress in your M. And your W will continue to not want to spend time with you, because she is not in love with you - she is getting her needs met elsewhere. If you are not going to take the advice about snooping, that is fine but please let us know. I have limited time to post these days and I would prefer to help someone that is interested in learning/following MB. Susie, I have been looking and keeping my eye on things... the only thing I have not seen is the work email... I will work on this. It would be easier if you answered questions directly - yes or no. I asked if you had access to the phone records and if her phone was password locked.
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I am also not grilling her or even talking to her about these men. They have been gone from town for months and live 6 states away. They were consultants and were in and out of their office over a year period.
We have a boundary agreement in place to prevent us from getting into same spot... of course assuming she abides by it and I am able to see she is abiding by it. Which so far she has been as best as I know.
yes... she still is too friendly in my mind with new coworker at times based on some of the conversations she has shared with me, but she appears to have curbed a lot.
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Her story about her work emails stinks. I have checked her personal phone / personal email and there are no phone calls or emails or texts to them... but I know you can delete those as well.
The only thing I can't check is her work stuff and she has to be willing to let me see it. Again I think she would now if I pushed for it. Is her phone password locked? Do you have access to her phone records? I would stop grilling her about these men and start getting serious about snooping . If you don't, I predict that you will not make any progress in your M. And your W will continue to not want to spend time with you, because she is not in love with you - she is getting her needs met elsewhere. If you are not going to take the advice about snooping, that is fine but please let us know. I have limited time to post these days and I would prefer to help someone that is interested in learning/following MB. Susie, I have been looking and keeping my eye on things... the only thing I have not seen is the work email... I will work on this. It would be easier if you answered questions directly - yes or no. I asked if you had access to the phone records and if her phone was password locked. I don't have password or access to records to the work phone.
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Again, is her cell phone password locked?
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His Needs Her Needs is a great book which is wholly inappropriate if there has been even any kind of an affair. Dr H has said on numerous occasions it should not be read by anyone who has been in any type of affair.
The emphasis is on needs, not Extraordinary Precautions. That's what is making you so unhappy - no boundaries.
This is why snooping is so important. You can't resolve the problem with the incorrect diagnosis. Then the crux of the matter is who's definition of affair do we go by? I studied a large number of sites and about 50% would say it was an emotional affair (with or without sexual desire... it didn't matter) and 50% would say it was heading in that path or at the very least there was a friendship built between 2 men and it was a high risk situation heading in the wrong direction My counselor wouldn't classify it as an affair based on everything he heard and everything he got from my wife when they spoke. But I also don't recall him saying anything about it being good for the marriage. It's been almost 10 months since this all happened so hard to remember exactly how he put it. Its a terrible idea for your counsellor to diagnose it on the basis of her highly incredulous story. Independent verification in the form of snooping is required. I want to be clear... there are red flags everywhere on this... but I found nothing that was blatant in regards to sexual affair or even lustful. . I really agree with you here and I find her behaviour very worrying. I don't believe her version of events at all. If she was going out to have her needs met by men and it never went further than feeling pleasantly friendly, she wouldn't have gotten worried enough to even tell you, much less decide she needs marriage counselling. She was either in love or highly tempted. This has freaked her out. I believe the contact continues. Her detached, would-rather-read-a-book attitude is sadly, textbook. Usually women who are not getting needs met ANYWHERE are desperate to work on the marriage and carry out a counsellor's recommendations. They thirst for UA time. It's a worry and a red flag that she is checked out. I think she haas been very carelessly been playing with fire for a loooong time. Please, please snoop and save her from herself. And don't forget I have definitely caused hurt from my end before all of this... she feels I am judgmental at times and that I don't edify her. So I believe at times she avoids time as she may want to avoid conflict or any negative feelings. It is something I have always known... she avoids difficult things... which is one reasons she lied about friendships... she knew I would not like it and instead of saying she didn't see a problem with OS friends she hid it to avoid arguing about it. Up until this point we were NOT feeling love with one another for quite a while. Yes... I believe anyone can fail (including me) and fall into an affair (emotional or sexual). These guys live 6 states away... I see no evidence of anything at this point. Yes... I haven't seen her work email and I'll look into that. Her description of your failings just sounds like textbook justification. YES you haven't done all you could but this is like criticising someone for not finishing the decor when they are setting fire to the home. No one forced her to have an open door policy with other men. That's the five bell alarm situation. His living far away is the typical set up too I'm afraid. That only serves the fantasy.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I am also not grilling her or even talking to her about these men. They have been gone from town for months and live 6 states away. They were consultants and were in and out of their office over a year period.
We have a boundary agreement in place to prevent us from getting into same spot... of course assuming she abides by it and I am able to see she is abiding by it. Which so far she has been as best as I know.
yes... she still is too friendly in my mind with new coworker at times based on some of the conversations she has shared with me, but she appears to have curbed a lot. It's great you're not grilling her but you need to find out independently. Being 'less open' to other men is still open. This isn't a learning curve you two will survive particularly if she's already had an EA.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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His Needs Her Needs is a great book which is wholly inappropriate if there has been even any kind of an affair. Dr H has said on numerous occasions it should not be read by anyone who has been in any type of affair.
The emphasis is on needs, not Extraordinary Precautions. That's what is making you so unhappy - no boundaries.
This is why snooping is so important. You can't resolve the problem with the incorrect diagnosis. Then the crux of the matter is who's definition of affair do we go by? I studied a large number of sites and about 50% would say it was an emotional affair (with or without sexual desire... it didn't matter) and 50% would say it was heading in that path or at the very least there was a friendship built between 2 men and it was a high risk situation heading in the wrong direction My counselor wouldn't classify it as an affair based on everything he heard and everything he got from my wife when they spoke. But I also don't recall him saying anything about it being good for the marriage. It's been almost 10 months since this all happened so hard to remember exactly how he put it. Is it an affair.... DID it cause HARM to your marriage? YES! Affair.Please read this and stop trying to define this and call it for what it is. If you can not agree on what is an affair, you are in for more and more. Again: From "What is an Affair". What is an Affair http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html "Discussions (or arguments) about what to include or exclude from the definition of marital infidelity is an effective way to get lost down a path where "Left Brainers" typically dwell and where "Right Brainers" typically get offended. The bottom line to the question is, "Specifically, what was it about the inappropriate relationship' that caused the damage in the marriage?" Was it the sex ([insert definition here]), the emotional bond, the amount of time spent together, the physical attraction? What was it? Talk about it. Get a clear understanding. If you don't understand how or why it happened and why it hurt the spouse, the probability of it happening again is very high. Asking others to define the term for you is not the answer. If you boil it all down, you are left with the fact that you both need to work together in developing a plan to prevent this "beast" from ever attacking your marriage again. If you don't know what it looks like, if you don't know where it hides, if you don't know what its touch feels like, then how will you ever protect your marriage from its venom again? "
BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced
"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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[Then the crux of the matter is who's definition of affair do we go by? I studied a large number of sites and about 50% would say it was an emotional affair (with or without sexual desire... it didn't matter) and 50% would say it was heading in that path or at the very least there was a friendship built between 2 men and it was a high risk situation heading in the wrong direction. Here's an idea, you can ask the guy who wrote the books for free! He usually sends a copy of what he feels is the most appropriate to his callers. If you include your number he may even call you up and chat to you about your case. I'd tell him the conversation your wife had with you when she said she had been lying and meeting men for lunch, that she was having needs met but she doesn't view this as an affair and claims it never reached a sexual point. That she felt this required counselling. However I'd say you aren't making progress in counselling due to your wife's greater reluctance. That you don't have access to x, y and z and that she cites work confidentiality as the cause. Then tell him your working through HNHN and struggle to get your wife's attention to spend the hour with you after the children are in bed recommended by the counsellor. Her claims that you dont edify her etc. Dr H has great experience and insight with withdrawn spouses. My feeling is though that Susie has already nailed it: Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. How do I nip this in the bud, you may be asking? Stop grilling her and talking to her about "trust" with the counselor and start snoop, while meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs.
When you have a spouse that has a history of a SSL and As, that is the only way you are going to know what is going on. And without proof, all she's going to do is deny deny and deny which you have already seen. A SSL is a most hurful thing. A year. A whole year.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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MSM: I am very sorry you are in the situation you are in. I just want to convey the fact that from outsiders... we feel for you. You are a victim.
Whether or not you ever want to call what happened to you an affair or not is irrelevant to me. You are suffering all the signs and symptoms in your marriage as the worst Physical affair out there.
It is painful.
It hurts your marriage.
You feel like you are going in circles while being told your making progress.
Your wife is throwing your crumbs and you are accepting it.
The saddest thing is that you can't see that yet. You suffer greatly and your marriage looks like 99 percent of all the other marriages after an affair look like. You don't know what that looks like yet so you can't see it.
I suggest you download "How to survive an Affair" from the Dr. right away, read it and let it sink in. You will get a clearer picture and I believe will help give you a clear path forward.
I also suggest if you would like: Email the Dr. Harley himself.... Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.
BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced
"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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Again, is her cell phone password locked? I thought I answered this with "I don't have password". It is locked. They are required to have it locked by hospital. I plan to ask to see her emails again and her phone again.
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Ok... where do I find the meaning of all the acronyms. I know most, but a few are foreign to me.
<< WS (SSL + IB + poor boundaries...) >>
What is WS and what is IB (inappropriate behavior?).
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Ok... where do I find the meaning of all the acronyms. I know most, but a few are foreign to me.
<< WS (SSL + IB + poor boundaries...) >>
What is WS and what is IB (inappropriate behavior?). SSL: Secret Second Life IB: Independent Behavior WS: Wayward Spouse
BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced
"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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If you go to the notable post forum and look up acronyms and abbreviations it is all there.
WS = Wayward Spouse
SSL - Secret Second Life
IB = Independent Behaviour (the decision to do something unapproved of and lie about it/ignore their spouse's concern)
Susie is stressing that she has behaved however she pleases, in secret, for a long period of time. It's more than enough time to develop very deep feelings for these people and the secret will have created distance with you and closeness with others.
She's also practiced at lying because it was hidden the whole time. That's why asking her for her version of events is not satisfactory because no doubt you were asking her about her day and her true feelings the whole time, but she didn't admit it.
My concern is that she didn't confess when she FIRST decided it was OK to get her needs met by other men. She only confessed after a long period in doing so.
The question is why, and I think, sadly, it was because her affair died a natural death.
Which means that it will have peaked some time before that.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Independent Behaviour and Dishonety are two of the major lovebusters.
Surviving my H's affair (PA and EA) wasn't so much disgust about the sex, or the romance, it was more about having to force my mind back to a period of time and 'fill in all the blanks' in retrospect.
That's a horrible job and one you no doubt try and do because you know your memory is incorrect due to a long period of lies.
Most BS's say the lies and the disregard hurt more than anything that was done or spoken between two fools and that is EXACTLY what you have experienced.
It's kind of rich that she is saying you don't edify her when you are reeling from such an extended period of dishonesty.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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If you go to the notable post forum and look up acronyms and abbreviations it is all there.
WS = Wayward Spouse
SSL - Secret Second Life
IB = Independent Behaviour (the decision to do something unapproved of and lie about it/ignore their spouse's concern)
Susie is stressing that she has behaved however she pleases, in secret, for a long period of time. It's more than enough time to develop very deep feelings for these people and the secret will have created distance with you and closeness with others.
She's also practiced at lying because it was hidden the whole time. That's why asking her for her version of events is not satisfactory because no doubt you were asking her about her day and her true feelings the whole time, but she didn't admit it.
My concern is that she didn't confess when she FIRST decided it was OK to get her needs met by other men. She only confessed after a long period in doing so.
The question is why, and I think, sadly, it was because her affair died a natural death.
Which means that it will have peaked some time before that. Ultimately only my wife and God know what the extent of the friendship(s) were and if it ever went beyond feelings of friendship. My wife is not a very emotional type of person so I have no problems seeing her build a friendship, but not get emotionally attached. I know... you are probably freaking out saying he doesn't get it. No I get it... but I cannot attribute and set in stone that X or Y happened that I don't know happened. I can only go by what I know happened and deal with here and now and move forward. I know what pain I feel for what has happened so far that I know of and that she admitted to. She didn't have to admit to anything and she definitely admitted to things she knew would hurt me deeply, but felt she had to tell the truth. Now yes... she could tell some and not other information... I get that. Anyway... I don't want to argue over things I cannot prove and will never be able to prove. I can deal with where we are now... deal with current actions... determine if anything is still happening with these other men by checking things... and keep moving forward.
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It's kind of rich that she is saying you don't edify her when you are reeling from such an extended period of dishonesty. Yes... I struggle with that feeling... so you want me to edify... then stop doing things that hurt me / us and start making the time so we can grow. Yes I get that. We however were having struggles for several years BEFORE anything took place so the edification is a need she has and should have been getting more of before. Take it for what it is. Regardless of dishonesty... I need to edify where I can to help fill the love bank... yes?
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I can deal with where we are now... deal with current actions... determine if anything is still happening with these other men by checking things... and keep moving forward. I agree that this is the priority. However you're wrong that's what's gone is gone never to resurface. Hidden things grow, they don't disappear. The trail is there, all you have to do is look.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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