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This thread has been cleaned up and recent argumentative posts removed. Please refrain from bickering any further. Please also remember that the purpose of this forum is to help posters understand Dr. Harley principles. It is not a venue to share personal philosophies.

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Thanks Ariel!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


#2836468 01/02/15 10:28 AM
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I've requested that my first thread disappear. I was asked to bring my side to MB and I did so at 2am NYE after my much needed fresh start to the year turned painfully ugly both physically and emotionally. I need a redo and after this past year I deserve it.

I am a person who has been hurt repeatedly by people in my life that I depend on. I have a tendency to endure, give too many chances and allow myself to suffer inside while appearing to be incredibly strong on the outside. But, once I've had all I can handle, I have the hardest time forgiving and can hold one hell of a grudge.
I fear this has happened with my husband and I do not know how to move forward when my biggest fear is that his efforts to change are temporary. I worry about that because I know they are taking a world of effort on his part and I'm still getting signs that he doesn't fully understand what I've been trying to tell him. He seems to only be wrapping his fingers around the most tangible requests, but I still feel like the revised, stronger, and more genuine Smile is still invisible to him.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
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It seems to me you both need to eliminate your AOs.

Did you listen to the clips in here?
Anger Management 101


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



SmileADay #2836485 01/02/15 11:49 AM
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BrainHurts, I have been banned from my other thread. I've asked that it be removed and hope that can be respected. My DH encouraged me to vent and that post was something that normally would have never been shared with anyone let alone a public forum that would ban me from commenting. AOs, while I agree are incredibly damaging, are far from our main concern on this road to recovery. We have much bigger fish to fry. You are talking to a couple whose marriage was born into the MB approach. We can count the number of fights on one hand prior to this very traumatic year and that's after 15 years together. Before 2014, neither of us said two negative words about the other to anyone else and while there were some flared tempers at times (more me than him and usually due to kids pushing us over the edge), angry outbursts did not exist. We both agree they have no place in our marriage.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836487 01/02/15 11:53 AM
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You've been banned from your own thread? By whom?

Have you tried emailing the MODS and asking them? I'm confused.

Are you guilty of any Love Busters?

What Love Busters would your DH say you're guilty of?

Do you get any UA time?

Since he's been posting are you seeing any changes at all?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



BrainHurts #2836491 01/02/15 12:15 PM
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I'm guessing I'm not supposed to discuss the other thread. Yes, I've contacted moderators twice, but nobody has responded to me yet.

I believe our main problem to be our failure to respect the POJA.
I will think about your other questions and respond when I get back from my job this afternoon.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836492 01/02/15 12:20 PM
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The moderators ARE responding to you but apparently the email address in your profile is no longer valid.

To get a response from a moderator, please email them directly and update your MB profile with your current info.


JustUss

Administrator/Moderator
SmileADay #2836516 01/02/15 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SmileADay
BrainHurts, I have been banned from my other thread.
No, you haven't been banned from that thread.

Quote
]I've asked that it be removed and hope that can be respected.

That is not MB policy.
Read this: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2263402#Post2263402


Quote
My DH encouraged me to vent and that post was something that normally would have never been shared with anyone let alone a public forum that would ban me from commenting.
I have read your thread and think you got good advice on it. It's not fair to ask people for help and then ask for it to be erased and start a new thread after folks spent a lot of time (volunteering) reading your posts and then responding to you.

Quote
AOs, while I agree are incredibly damaging, are far from our main concern on this road to recovery. We have much bigger fish to fry.

I don't think BH was incorrect in advising that you look at eliminating all AOs and other lovebusters. It doesn't have to be the "main concern" in order to be addressed.

It's concerning that you seem to want to control the advice that you are getting. That's typically what we see when people start new threads.



Ddays 2007 and 2011
Plan B 6/21/11
Divorced July 2012
2 kids
How to Plan B Correctly
Parallel Parenting in Plan B
SusieQ #2836573 01/02/15 06:20 PM
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Thanks, I see the emails now. That is an older account and I was thinking a private message would be sent. Sorry.

As for eliminating AOs, consider it done. Neither of us have had an angry outburst this whole year! wink
Seriously, though. Neither of us are concerned about angry outbursts. As I stated before, we have a long history of being very respectful of each other (basically all of our fights have happened this year and we're still talking about 3 fights). We've done a good job of communicating difficult topics via email so that we have time to calm down before responding and we are starting to feel more comfortable having those tough face to face interactions. The last AO was a few weeks ago when we had a real heart to heart in person and I simply told DH it was not okay for him to yell at me. That was the end of that.
Was there something more you wanted me to say with regards to angry outbursts?

Smiles


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836584 01/02/15 06:46 PM
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We just talked about the other questions BrainHurts asked, but I will have to update after we get back from dinner. Overall, we agree that UA is severely lacking and he says he cannot identify much in the way of LBs from me other than when I get frustrated with the kids. I couldn't think of anything during my long drive for work earlier, but I did have some other rather large epiphanies.
I thought about the change question and can comment later.

Smiles


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836585 01/02/15 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SmileADay
I've requested that my first thread disappear. I was asked to bring my side to MB and I did so at 2am NYE after my much needed fresh start to the year turned painfully ugly both physically and emotionally. I need a redo and after this past year I deserve it.

I am a person who has been hurt repeatedly by people in my life that I depend on. I have a tendency to endure, give too many chances and allow myself to suffer inside while appearing to be incredibly strong on the outside. But, once I've had all I can handle, I have the hardest time forgiving and can hold one hell of a grudge.
I fear this has happened with my husband and I do not know how to move forward when my biggest fear is that his efforts to change are temporary. I worry about that because I know they are taking a world of effort on his part and I'm still getting signs that he doesn't fully understand what I've been trying to tell him. He seems to only be wrapping his fingers around the most tangible requests, but I still feel like the revised, stronger, and more genuine Smile is still invisible to him.


You are the person who introduces Smile to the world.

You can't be silent and heard at the same time. How can an intangible request be answered? You don't know any mindreaders do you?

What change do you think is temporary? Even if he were to start demanding sex, all you'd have to say is no.

No man ever fell out of love for not getting sex. I can see how you felt his promiscuity in younger years put you in a sexual competition, but he would have fallen for you without sex. Sex doesn't start love.

Men have an overpowering need for it but they won't explode, not will they fall out of love.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

indiegirl #2836631 01/02/15 08:39 PM
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"You can't be silent and heard at the same time. How can an intangible request be answered? You don't know any mindreaders do you?"

I'm the furthest thing from silent. I talk TOO much. I've had nicknames like "Mouth" as a child,"TMI Tammy" since college, and my favorite "Rabble Rouser" because I absolutely hate when people avoid confrontation and let emotions boil under the surface. My DH is the quiet one who does not know how to express emotions, but at the same time, I can read him like a book (his words, not mine). I studied family/marital therapy in college, but knew early on I could never be a therapist because I talk too much, but all of my friends love coming to me for relationship advice. I am an open book to the extent that I forget myself when talking to people who have a history of taking advantage of information that makes me vulnerable.

I said that he seems to only understand the tangible requests, not that I was not making deeper requests. By that, I mean he will do anything I ask of him (although he has slipped on some pretty important ones over the years if I don't nag him, which I absolutely hate to do and try to avoid), but he needs explicit/detailed instructions on how to proceed. As someone who loves surprises, that has been very boring and it sucks the meaning out of any acts of love if I had to tell him exactly what to do. We're not talking about mind reading. We're talking about small acts of love that show me that he knows what makes me happy. I feel like I'm not worth the time and energy for him to plan and do something special even though I've always told him I love surprises and hate that I have to do all the planning for UA (not to mention pretty much everything else having to do with our family). I feel like a stranger to him.

"No man ever fell out of love for not getting sex. "
I think anyone could fall out of love if their #1 EN is being completely neglected. There has never been anything easy about saying no to him when it comes to sex.

The change I fear is temporary is the shift from doing things for me with the hopes that will result in sex as opposed to doing things for me because he wants to make me happy, because he loves me. I think he has done a good job of that over the past few weeks, but I've withheld sex and he knows that's not changing until we learn how to make love in a way that involves me and makes me want it.
He had a choice to make. Either get pissed off that I was refusing sex until things change and give up on our marriage or make some serious changes. He has chosen to fight for our marriage, but how am I supposed to know if he truly understands that difference (meeting my ENs because he loves me or because he wants me to screw him) and can maintain it or if this huge amount of effort on his part (he agrees he is working harder than he ever has) is not sustainable?


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836633 01/02/15 08:48 PM
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Dr. Harley recommends you sit down on Sundays and schedule together your UA time for the week. Can you both do this?

What is the number 1 love buster you would say he is committing?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



BrainHurts #2836653 01/02/15 10:00 PM
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Yes, we can and will. DH has even helped find a second babysitter, which is the type of involvement I've been asking of him for awhile. The prospect of planning UA time has been overwhelming for me since I always have to do all of the work and make it work around his schedule. Sucks the fun out of it a lot of the time. I've asked him many times over the years to stop leaving all of the planning to me. I'm very low maintenance, especially with dates. Take me for some beer and bar food while we watch football...awesome.

Another very recent improvement (oh, about 20 minutes ago) was he told me that he plans to sacrifice some of his work time for UA. In addition, he now understands that the time I have to sacrifice is his problem as well as mine since I'm also a full time mom desperately trying to find time to get caught up with my work. While I know his job is more important than mine in terms of finances, my job is every bit as important to my identity and mental health as his is.

We're going to schedule in as much time as we can.



*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836657 01/02/15 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SmileADay
We're going to schedule in as much time as we can.

Dr. Harley says it takes 15 hours of UA a week to maintain love. You both should really be shooting for 20+. Can you do this?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



SmileADay #2836661 01/02/15 10:35 PM
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There are lots of little LBs that are mostly cleanliness issues and annoying habits that have all become much more difficult to ignore. Every little thing seems to make me frustrated with him now, but I think that goes for anyone that you get sick of.
Basically, I married an ogre and now that I'm not in love with him, I find him pretty disgusting.

By far, the biggest Love Buster is when he stands by while his mom abuses me. I was verbally and physically abused as a child, mostly verbally abused as a teen by my stepmother (while my dad stood right next to her) and then by my boyfriend at boarding school (my mother saw him attack me and did nothing), and verbally abused by my MIL for the past 15 years. Nobody has ever stood up for me but me. Twice DH insisted that she leave our house when she'd escalated to screaming at me and he claims he has emailed her regarding her behavior, but I've never seen any of those. He'll admit to me that he agrees her behavior was horribly inappropriate immediately after she does something, but he has never set boundaries to protect me and has often asked me to avoid problems with her. I've been put in a position to play nice to someone who hates me as a wife and mother for our entire relationship. She critiques me endlessly and has flat out told me I'm a bad mother many times, twice in front of our kids (with the last time being this past April while I was still recovering from my 2nd surgery and dealing with severe depression). I've finally insisted that she never be allowed back into my life and I believe the way she treats me in front of our children is very damaging to the way they see me as an authority figure so I don't want her around them either. He agrees with all of that, but 7 months later he has yet to let her know that she is no longer welcome in our family. When I hear him talking to her on the phone as if everything is fine, it makes me hate him even though I realize he is in a horribly difficult position. But, I have protected him from being put in that position for far too long. I've been determined to avoid coming between him and his mom or coming between her and her grandchildren since day 1. I've nurtured those relationships and made sure the kids made her special cards or gifts for mother's day, Christmas, and her birthday whenever possible. She is a nasty and hateful human being hiding behind the disguise of being a loving Buddhist and she is poisonous to our family. In June when she visited, she admitted to hurting me intentionally and then sent me an email that verified that she still believes the horrible things she said to me after the birth of our first child almost 10 years ago. That's when we both knew she'd never change, but he still loves her and cannot seem to let her go.

See...told you I talk to much.

Smile


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836663 01/02/15 10:41 PM
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No, 15 hours a week is not currently a possibility.


*Me - 38
*Him -37
*Met 1/15/99; engaged 12/24/03; married 8/22/04
*DS 6/2/05, DD 12/3/07, DD 2-29-12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you lose the honesty, you lose the marriage. --Smile
SmileADay #2836683 01/03/15 04:33 AM
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Little things about your husband irritate you when you have fallen out of love.


me, DH
all the children
SmileADay #2836691 01/03/15 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SmileADay
"No man ever fell out of love for not getting sex. "
I think anyone could fall out of love if their #1 EN is being completely neglected. There has never been anything easy about saying no to him when it comes to sex.


I wouldn't compare it to the other emotional needs, because sex is very different to them. It is the only emotional need which can be safely disregarded when falling in love. None of the other four intimate emotional needs can be - sex can.

Even the non intimate needs outrank it!

It also doesn't matter how high it is on a list of person's needs. I have a high SF need myself and I can assure you it is perfectly possible for me to be in love without sex. However if there were no conversation, (a lower need for me) I'd struggle. There's a reason why first dates all concentrate on the same needs, regardless of the people concerned, because sex doesn't build love, the ENs of affection, recreation and conversation do.

Dr H tells women constantly they needn't have premarital sex if they don't want to because it does zip for creating love. It's incredibly common for men in particular to discard their sexual partners. It just simply does not create feelings when the need is met in isolation. That's why men exercise patience through courtship.

It's like how a woman with a high financial support need will fall in love with a penniless, albeit promising, student, and even many years later she will stay in love with him through a period of unemployment. Some of the needs are perfectly capable of patience.

I truly don't want you to worry about this (having sex while ill for example!). You talk about 'withholding' sexual energy - but you don't have any to withhold! It's your husbands job to create it - it's entirely on him. It's not neglect it's honesty. Meeting another person's needs unenthusiastically is play acting. It's dishonesty. It fails to hit the mark too, so the need remains as unfulfilled as if you hadn't bothered.

Originally Posted by SmileADay
" He has chosen to fight for our marriage, but how am I supposed to know if he truly understands that difference (meeting my ENs because he loves me or because he wants me to screw him) and can maintain it or if this huge amount of effort on his part (he agrees he is working harder than he ever has) is not sustainable?


Ah, of course you don't want your needs to be met unenthusiastically either! I don't think you need worry that your husband's sole focus is on sex. I doubt he married you only to have sex with you - because sex can be had with anybody. Not even the most sexually obsessed person would make that their criteria.

Just ensure the 'work' is pleasant! The dates should become his favourite time of the week. From his posts it sounds like he misses you and wants to get you away from your desk.

Last edited by indiegirl; 01/03/15 06:55 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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