First time posting on MB. This is my husband's 5th affair. And by far it is the most hurtful. Have struggled to keep our family together over the years. At his retirement ceremony he wrote me a love letter telling me how much he loved me and was sorry he had let me down so many times. Now we are here 8 months later in the same situation. My ws just retired from the AF and is now flying with an airlines. His newest affair is with a flight attendant. She is not married and is totally in love with him. She doesn't have any other responsibilities and is very sexual, according to him. He says that need was never satisfied by me. In fact, he says I never satisfied any of his needs. DDay was April 1st when H moved out for the first time to be with her. He is totally in the FOG. He doesn't love me any more and doesn't know if he ever did. All my years of supporting him in his military career are for naught. He says he did not mean to hurt me or our 4 wonderful children. He wants to remain involved with our family..but also keep his OW. He comes home whenever he is not flying and tries to act like nothing is different. I told him a month ago he couldn't stay here anymore until his affair is over. He told me to never make ultimatums to him again. No matter what we talk about, he gets angry and says that's why I am divorcing you. He has changed our history and has made me into a horrible spouse. It is so sad. Our marriage is like most of my friends(with the exception of the affairs and emotional abuse). Most people are shocked--they thought we were the perfect couple. Up until I found out, he was active with our family, bought thousands of dollars of building materials to complete our family room upstairs and also our downstairs basement. He was happy doing that and pleased that everyone was helping him. We were making plans for our new life, because now we would finally have money and time to do things. For the first time ever in our marriage, he was able to help with our family life. Before that the AF always came first. After his first affair in 1990 when I was pregnant with our third child, he was emotionally abusive for two years. One of the toughest times of my life. That daughter has neurological problems, which I am sure was probably caused by the stress. It has taken me years to forgive and forget and move on with our lives. Even after all this, I still love him and would love to preserve my family. I can't believe how incredible cruel he has been to me. I don't understand why he has to tear me apart to justify his behavior. I tried to talk to him tonight, and he said he is willing to go to counseling to show the kids that you don't give up on a problem. But he also wants to continue the affair and feels like he is justified in his behavior, because he is finally happy. We tried counseling in 1990, and he used that occasion to turn everything around on me. It was an awful experience. I told him this time, I would prefer to try MB to learn some new skills. He doesn't want to do that. He said tonight that he doesn't have any hope for our marriage and just wants a counselor to tell us that. I am incredibly sad. The best thing I have done was to stay where we have been living for the past eight years. The kids are settled, I got recertified and went back to teaching 5 years ago, and for the first time I have told friends about this situation and they have provided me with wonderful support. I can't believe I went through that all by myself the other times. I am sorry this is so long, but wanted to give you a little history. My H brother says I am codependent, but I don't think so. I still love my husband and believe strongly in my marriage and our family. People think I am crazy for putting up with this. I am scared of my future. Please advise. <BR> <BR>

Dear MnM,<P>I am sorry to hear of your pain in your story. I would like to take the opportunity to welcome you to MB. <P>Here is a thread with helpful information we share with all newcomers. <P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008792.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008792.html</A> <P><BR>I am the BS (betrayed spouse) and my H is the WS (wayward spouse). Your story touched me for it has many similarities to mine. You will find that common thread in most of our situations. One of the terms we use here to describe those of our (wayward spouses) is that they are in the fog. There actions are often irrational, almost like another person. All of a sudden they have found this great person to fulfill all their needs. You can be sure something is being met. Obviously there were issues in your marriage like most of ours. For some of us we were caught be surprise, others may have had subtle hints. Irregardless the OP (other person) may or may not have a strong influence on our WS. This adds to the issue. <P>Please read all the material here at mb. There are books, writeups, questionnaires and phone counseling sessions available for both you and your H or just for yourself. All are beneficial. There are forums here for different issues. You have posted to the GQII (general questions II). There is the JFO (just found out), D/D (divorcing/divorce), Plan A/B, even a Preg/child site and more. <P>The support here at the forums are best when you have acquainted yourself with the basic concepts as outlined here at mb. The pain you are feeling will not go away but you will get the support here to learn to cope with it. Even though you have been through this before, each time, the wounds are fresh and inflict great pain. <P>Please MnM, read as much as you can and keep posting here. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.

I am really confused. Last night I tried to talk to hubby about our relationship and he totally tore me apart. I couldn't sleep at all last night. This afternoon, he came over to the house and couldn't have been nicer. He went with us to my son's ballgame and then took us out to dinner and shopping. This hot and cold stuff is so emotionally draining. I never know what to expect. Last night I was devastated again. He said he loved her and that he didn't love me. She was wonderful and I was horrible--etc. etc. I don't know what he wants. I really thinks he misses the family. Could this be a sign that he is coming out of his fog?<BR>

No your H does not sound like he is coming out of the fog. It sounds like he is very much in the Fog and is confused. The reason he continually cheats is because he has not had any repercussions in the past for his infidelity. You have stuck by him each time. I know that is what marriage is about, but the Harley's in no way advocate staying in Plan A when it is a habitual cheater. Good luck in your counseling session. You should read about Plan B, it is something that your H has never had to experience, because he knew you would never do anything about his cheating.

There have been repercussions...to the point of almost divorcing. It takes a long time to rebuild after these situations. I don't know why I don't throw in the towel--this time it is at that point. I know we both still love each other...but obviously, he does not treasure or respect our relationship. And that hurts. I think where we made the mistake is not finding ways to build our relationship stronger after the affairs--we just keep going with our hectic lives. My H has always had a hard time expressing his feelings in an appropriate manner. He has a huge ego that needs to be filled always. He has often chosen to not fulfill my needs. It gets to the point where there are no feelings left--just this huge void. Because our lives are so busy with both of our careers and 4 kids and their activities, things come to a head and this is what happens. It is so sad. I have tried to implement plan B, but my H refuses to cooperate. He keeps coming home!! He just left again this morning to fly. I don't know what to think. I have told him I don't want anymore contact with him unless he has ended his affair. He still wants to be part of this family--go boating, attend the kids softball and baseball and soccer games, pay the bills, etc. My oldest daughter and I are going to Europe for 3 weeks in July and my mother is coming to stay with my 3 other kids. She is 79, and she is doing this as a favor for me. I told my H not to come here when she is here. But he says that he has too much to do around the house and wants to be here for the kids. He is not going to stay away. He seems to be planning to come back after his flights next week also. I don't know how to handle that. I tried restricting his access to us by not being here a few weeks ago, and then he accused me of using the kids to get back to him. It is a no win situation. Hopefully, my counseling session with Steve tomorrow will help me. Sorry this is so long. Most of my family and friends can't believe that I am not proceeding with a divorce. How can I possibly still love him--but I do.

MnM:<P>What you are experiencing is the rollercoaster ride of his befuddled ("in the fog") condition. His guilt is colliding full force with his desire.<P>Five affairs over the years? Whew. Start reading Dr. Harley's material, particularly Surviving an Affair.<P>Keep us posted, we are here to help.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

I bought surviving an affair 3 weeks ago. I thought it was very good. I gave it to my husband to read, don't know if he has though. He said why should I read that-you're the one that has to survive the affair. I also gave him "husbands, wives, and other imperfections". It was a great book on marriage relationships. He read it, wrote lots of derogatory comments in it and threw it back at me saying it was worthless. He felt that it was written by a women and therefore it was irrelevant. I have sent him many of the posts and articles written on this site. It seems to make him defensive. He is reading them though. He especially didn't like any of the dearpeggy articles--because they were written by a women. Pretty sad that he is so closed minded.<P>I think he is having a hard time again, because he has this image of being this person of integrity. He can't see how he has devastated our lives with his attitudes and behavior. It is hard for him to live with what he has done. I think he looks at me and knows that he is wrong...I think. Keep me in your prayers.

Hi,<P>I am sure you are being inundated with reading material but I would like to make 2 suggestions. One continue sending your H threads from here. Maybe stick to the ones from the guy's perspective (esp those Male WS posts). <P>There are 2 books that come to mind to help both of you. His Needs/Her Needs by Dr Harley and Love must be Tough by Dr James Dobson. <P>There is a lot in both of them that will help you and him also. He seems to be full of anger, this is very common. There is a lot he is going through emotionally and he does need someone to talk with. Is there a good friend he can confide in or willing to go to a counselor? Steve Harley is very easy to talk with. Doing the phone counseling over the phone made it easier for my H. Guys are usually more closed minded in these matters but sometimes when they need to open up, you just can't stop them. My H talked up a storm to our counselor & to Steve but fought me all the way going there. <P>Just my 2 cents. Don't let his anger rub off on you, I know this is hard but don't take it personally..<P>L.

Thanks for your post mnm on my thread.<P>Surviving an Affair is a good book, but due to the fact your H has had multiple affairs, I might also recommend<BR>Dr. James Dobson's <I>Love Must Be Tough</I>. <P>Several people have had success using a combination of the Harley's approach plus the 'tough' love (which is essentially plan b.)<P>My recommendation also, based on experience, is the less you talk to him the better. As you can see from my post, I don't always follow my own advice. But I should. I should have let him come to me with all the details...force his hand so to speak...instead it was me 'controling' the situation by trying to make sense of it for me. Which makes no sense, because there can be no logic to any of this which is happening.<P>I also recommend LoveBusters...it has helped me to focus on the things that I need to change. That is plan A...you can only control you and make the changes in you that need to be made...Hard? Very. But the more you read, the more you post and read the posts, the more you make changes in yourself, the stronger you will find yourself.<P>Good Luck.<P>------------------<BR>Cali<P><I> Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. </I><BR>1 Peter 5:6-7

Hi there,<P> My H was also AF and we also have 4 kids......Please consider taking Orchid's advice and make an appointment with Steve H....don't worry about getting your H to join in. He gave me great advice and we have been in recovery for 2yrs. <P>I think STeve would tailor your counseling to the fact that you have dealt with this 5 times.....he can get right to the point of things and give you a plan.It sounds like you are spinning your wheels and your H just wants his family and cake too.<P>I think the AF encourages affairs and the mentality of "boys will be boys".... Hang in there Misery , we are here for you....LU

Thanks for the posts and recommendations for reading. I read Dr. Dobson's book a few weeks ago and tried to implement some of it. I quit calling him, or answering his calls and he thanked me and then quit calling me. It seems like he is falling further and further into this relationship with this women. <P>We still correspond by e-mail, but he uses that as a forum to justify his behavior. <P>He still comes home when he is done flying, says he misses the kids. Last night he took my son and I out to dinner--he wanted to and then we went shopping for patio furniture. It felt like it used to. Then this morning he raced in and said he had to run and catch a plane. He grabbed some clothes and left. This is so hard. How long should I go on with this relationship? I just can't visualize our relationship without him. 21 years is a long time.<P> My H has said that he is willing to go into counseling in August when I get back from Europe. He said he has told the women this and will break off the relationship to devote time to the counseling. I asked him why wait until August. I go back to school then and that is a hectic time for me. I told him I am starting counseling now and he can join me now. He hasn't responded to that. I don't know how much longer I can handle this pain though. I have this pit in my stomach that won't go away. Then when he is like he was yesterday, I feel hopeful again. Is this crazy or what?

MnM:<P>Since you have read Dr. Harley's SSA, regardless of how your H feels about it, you need to implement Plan B immediately.<P>The fact that this is a recurring scenario tells me that he knows that you will ultimately relent. Write your no contact plan B letter and find an intermediary. Have him move his things out. Take legal recourse if you must.<P>It is somewhat a drastic course, but in light of his attitude, past behavior, and his comments to you, you owe it to yourself and your children to get him to see the light as it really is. And as long as he is in the fog, he will not.<P>Godspeed and good luck, our prayers are with you,<BR>STL

Am feeling pretty down tonight. As I said before, my H left today and is probably with her tonight. How said. This time I am feeling there is really not much hope. He comes back just long enough to get me upset and then leaves. I am finding it hard to even function during the day. I need to start feeling better so that I can be there for my kids. I hope counseling will help tomorrow. I hate how I am feeling.

Dear MnM,<P>You have read both books and now your H is draining your love at a high speed. You know what to do. Plan b to protect your love and yourself is important. Your H is not making his family his primary concern and he should. You can not force him to do that but you can limit his contact with you. He is using you for his needs without meeting yours or your family's needs. Talk to Steve or Jennifer ASAP. Let them help you draft a plan B letter. <P>Don't despair. Easy to say and hard to do. Yet, when you do implement plan B, you will get the control back in your life in order to go on. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<BR>

Thank you all for your support. I wish I had found this site earlier. You really have a calming effect on me. It helps to know there are people who have been there. <P> I don't know why I feel so panicky today. I think he has really chosen to leave for good. How could he do that to us? I never could leave my kids....and destroy my marriage. <P> I would give anything to get out of this trip to Europe. My daughter is going over to play soccer and H bought me a ticket and "threw" it at me for Valentine's Day. He came into the bedroom and threw the card at me and said..here Happy Valentine's Day. I know now that it was his way to appease me....I do love to travel, but am really not up for this trip. I feel like this is impending disaster. H parents were supposed to come to watch the kids, but they have not shown me any support in this situation--so I don't want them here. I feel like I am in a fog....I am on antidepressants---but I still can't get myself together. Is this normal...or am I loosing it? I feel like I am obsessed with the situation. I spend all day reading and trying to cope and trying to find answers. My m wrote and said that by now I should be all ready for this trip.....well, I haven't even started. I just can't. The house is a mess, I haven't done anything for the trip....