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Viper #2674125 10/14/12 09:14 PM
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Viper, I was here. Bt, soooo happy for you!

BTinTrouble #2674229 10/15/12 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
So it is October 2012, and the last post on here was from almost February 2011.

Just wanted to throw a quick update if anyone for whatever reason was reading this...

I would consider us a success story. We did I think 6 months of phone coaching sessions with Dr. Jennifer Chalmers, and we got to work. We still have lots to do because we are people that have a lot of personal stuff that we need to get better at as well, while being parents and providers and life at the same time.

But, we are working it, and we are making it. We are happy and value our marriage. I havent been getting on here because of numerous other things I have committed myself too, but I still have my log in info and am still eternally grateful to people like HHH and MelodyLane and others that supported me through this lowest of absolutely lowest points in my life.

Take care MB, keep on helping! You are much appreciated!

(updated my sig)


Hi, BT,

It's very good to see you again. I think of you often, and am glad to hear that things are going well for you guys!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2674235 10/15/12 11:47 AM
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WOOTS! .. Grats! ... always good to hear good news! Keep up the good fight and continue to make your marriage better than ever.

Pay it forward!

MNG

MrNiceGuy #2674402 10/15/12 09:40 PM
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hurray


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



BrainHurts #2860886 07/13/15 09:14 PM
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Hey, BT,

Please come by and tell us what's going on.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
BTinTrouble #3008891 07/21/19 08:17 PM
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So I havent been on here since Oct 2012, so almost 7 years. In 2015 I quit the job that I had been working at during the affair, went back to college for 3 years and got a degree in Computer Engineering, then moved to CO for work, to be near her family in July 2018. MrsBT developed severe kidney pain around the time we moved and was often bed ridden for the past year until about mid-May when surgery appears to have corrected the condition.

I regret to say that at some point, I fell back into a habit of playing video games. School was crazy, living in a small apartment with us and the (now) 4 kids. Moving to CO has been stressful and her illness as well. I have not been meeting her needs well, and new we werent in a great place when we moved.

On June 18th, MrsBT informed me she had filed a police report of child abuse against me for an incident which occurred on Fathers Day. She told me she was no longer willing to tolerate 14 years of physical, mental and emotional abuse and if I didnt seek professional help immediately, she would take the kids and leave. She said she had to call her dad after we finished speaking and that she was recording the conversation for her own safety because she did not trust me. Also, I was not to be left alone with the children or participate in discipline anymore. She informed me she had "about 10%" of her love left for me, but not to worry about that because I needed to worry about fixing myself as a father.

The following Saturday, MrsBT informed me that she should not have lied to me about the 10%, that she was 100% she was going to divorce me and that I would not be able to "manipulate" her into changing her mind. I had never made her happy, we were never healthy, and if not for the kids, she would entirely regret the last 14 years and her decision to ever marry me. She told me the only reason she came back home after the affair was because I threatened to take our son from her if she didn't.

About a week later, MrsBT was made aware that her family local to the area would be unwilling to watch her children during the 5 day trip she had planned for herself to CA at the end of July (this week in fact), that she has been planning since about 10 months ago. She arranged plans with me to make sure I had taken time off from work to watch the children while she was gone, and we have confirmed these plans several times (some recorded).

I have not been meeting her needs well for at least 4 years. I realized this when we moved here and had been trying to sort things out, but her illness made a lot of things difficult and stressful, and I am shamed having to admit that I went off to play games to avoid the stress.

MrsBT has stated that she knows I cannot change. She filed for divorce on 15 July, and I am to be served on the 23. She has been receiving services from an abuse shelter for legal assistance and so on. Currently, I still live in the house with her and the kids. I went to Church on my own for the first time in 20 years a couple weeks ago, and yesterday the whole family came with me. I started with a therapist on 19 June, and am finishing up week 6 with her. She has told me that she believes I am "high functioning autistic like every person running every major company in this country." She also told me that she is not able to diagnose or treat my wife, but that I need to learn what Borderline Personality Disorder is and how to deal with someone suffering from it.

On June 19th, I quit video games for good because I just have too much to do, even if I had a great marriage. It was affecting my ability to get up early, making me have to work late, and miss out on too much, and getting fat. Since then I have started working out and playing with my kids a lot more. I go to work at about 6am or so now, so I am home earlier. I have also lost 10 lbs so far.

Her dad talks to me a lot and is very supportive. He has questioned her a lot about where this all came from and asked her to get help (her own therapist). To explain herself, she apparently wrote him "the longest email I have ever written in my life" detailing all of my atrocities. I asked her dad after he had read it if I am abusive. He said he had been accused of mental and emotional abuse by her mother all the time, and that he read the whole thing, and she is certainly hurt, but that, as far as abuse goes, he "remains unconvinced." Ultimately, he supports whatever choice she makes, but told me I will always be his son, and that he hopes it works out. I dont think I am abusive, but am willing to tackle whatever I need to do if I discover otherwise. MrsBT so far mostly refused to relate to me what abuse I have done. I have only been able to glean a couple examples from conversations. Off the top of my head:

-Physical Abuse: Within a month of coming home from my last deployment, I apparently had her in a choke hold for several hours while I was sleeping. This would have been in late 2006. She now says, "Our son scares me when he sleep walks because you used to abuse me in your sleep."

-She told me at the abuse shelter, she was talked to about what different kinds of abuses are, and discovered that I have committed 7 different kinds of domestic abuse including sexual and financial abuse. I replied, "I dont understand." "When you ask for sex, and I say I don't want to, and you ask again, thats sexual abuse."

I dont in any way want to minimize abuse. However, at this point, mostly based on her fathers statement, I dont believe I am abusive. I believe I neglected her, and that she is rewriting history to justify her current actions.

Since the 18th, we have had several hours long conversations where I have been focusing on being "present" (as Nicole, my therapist, calls it) and just listening to hear and not listening to answer or solve. I have heard a lot as well. The conversations are very confusing. I will go from "looking at you makes me want to puke" to, when I ask if she wants to go to sleep because its getting late, she says, "No wait, I wanted to tell you about something else with my friend...." and another 25 mins of conversation.

I have recorded some of these. Because of my work, I have had to report police interaction and such. I have pictures of my son from a couple hours after the incident she reported. I have detailed what occurred to several people, including my therapist, and so far all have said "BT, you aren't going to prison. I will be surprised if you even see charges." I have still retained a defense attorney, but to my knowledge neither of us has actually retained a divorce attorney yet.

Today she completed her process to start working a job. I am at a point right now where my current plan is to just keep working on me. I am surprised to find in myself a willingness to develop spiritually. I realize that I have never REALLY forgiven the affair, or my mom and dad, or anyone. My therapist says I reflexively disassociate from my emotions, and need to learn to experience and manage them. I want to do this.

In terms of saving my marriage, I am willing, but saying it seems to be a waste of time. I dont feel I can talk myself out of something I behaved myself into. With that said, she feels how she feels, and nothing in terms of where we are going is going to change until she feels different, so Plan A as best I can.

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 07/21/19 08:20 PM.

Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3008917 07/23/19 01:03 AM
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So, strangely enough, today was very interesting. The plan was that I be served divorce papers by a mutual friend tomorrow. Today was a visit from a CPS worker, who wanted to know all about us, as part of a home visit. I recorded most of that, but MrsBT's answers were very interesting in terms of tense (past tense) and willingness to acknowledge stressors, her role in our relationship, etc. etc.

We did Nice 'Night after dinner, which is a family event I invented about a week after she dropped the news on me. Basically, each person in our family gets a turn where they say a "Do better" (something they could do better), and then the rest of us say something nice about them. Wife said she was really happy I found a church for our family, something she never thought would happen. She cried as she said it, and I cried hearing it. We then talked in the living room for a while, and, once the kids went to sleep, moved to the couch.

Through a winding conversation, new in my idea of faith, she asked if I prayed. I said I have a couple times in the past week, but mostly I sing my prayers because speaking them doesn't feel real yet. I played my first prayer in 20 some years for her (Ben Rektor - Sailboat). She said it had always bothered her that we couldn't pray together. I took her hand and offered a prayer as best I could. We went for a short walk (a mile), and back home, headed down to the basement so we wouldn't wake the kids. She said she is very unsure of everything and thinks she has decided to just pause everything, maybe till New Year's and see where she is at. She said she loves her children and doesn't want to do anything that will hurt them. That if that means getting away from me, she will do it, but she said she has noticed my actions the past month, and is scared that she will make a choice now that she will regret later.

I will continue exploring how to be more Christ-like. I have found that, without a measuring stick to check myself against, my behavior is unbounded. I have learned that lesson. This will include really forgiving everyone, including her. I also plan to continue loving my wife, except for real.

Recovery is lifelong, and I forgot that. I let it slip for a long time, and it may still be too late. But for now, I will keep on doing my best.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3008926 07/23/19 12:22 PM
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Sorry to hear about your update. Do you want to save your marriage? Will you be following the UA time?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



BTinTrouble #3008927 07/23/19 12:40 PM
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Quote
On June 18th, MrsBT informed me she had filed a police report of child abuse against me for an incident which occurred on Fathers Day.


Hi BT, for some reason I completely missed this and that is why I didn't respond sooner. I am sorry to hear your marriage has fallen apart. What happened with your son?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


BTinTrouble #3008964 07/26/19 09:17 AM
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Hi BT,

It sounds like you have been through this before and therefore are no stranger to the signs of an affair, but have you ruled out the possibility that your wife is in another affair?

I ask this because it does seem like she is rewriting history a bit, and acting erratically like a wayward. But also because after accusing you of being unsafe with kids also plans on going on a week long trip ‘by herself.’ The trip itself is suspect imo, but the fact she accuses you of abuse but is willing to leave the kids with you for a week unattended is another red flag. I have a friend whose husband is an alcoholic and she has not left her children alone with him for many years. She turns every opportunity to do so away because she fears for their safety. So I just wanted to make sure you have ruled out the affair.

BTinTrouble #3008968 07/26/19 10:18 AM
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We have been doing UA time (I dont call it that to her, but I do it) for the last ~6 days, 2-6 hours per day, and before that, I was engaging her in at least a few conversations every day not involving logistics or our problems. I have been using UA time to meet 3 of her top 4 needs (Conversation, Admiration, and Honesty/Openness). Since Monday, I have also started adding Affection (4 of 4). Her 5th top need depends on how financially stable we are. It is either Family Commitment or Financial Stability: I am good on both of these. For Affection, I have been holding her hand, hugs, and we danced in the dark in the kitchen to Oh My Soul on Wednesday night which was awesome.

She has stopped divorce proceedings, and put her ring back on yesterday, and gave me a kiss good bye. I was supposed to be served by our mutual friend on Tuesday, but MrsBT and my friend talked and cried and talked, and MrsBT told her she was not going to file and to stop the process.

Father's Day
We are relatively strict parents. When a child cries, they are asked to get ahold of themselves. Take some deep breaths, and use their words. If they refuse to do that, whatever it is they wanted is almost certainly not going to happen. Sometimes, when they are told that, they start screaming in frustration (a tantrum). Irresponsible use of anything generally is followed by loss of that. Screaming is irresponsible use of your mouth, so it gets covered, and you get asked to get ahold of yourself until you do.

This is our general agreed upon approach that we have been doing for over 7 years with all of the children.

Keep in mind, I am not defending this 'algorithm,' I have been treating parenting like an algorithm the entire time, and have recently realized that children aren't computers, and cant just be programmed. To all of you that think this is obvious, note that this thread pre-DDay is like 30 pages.... I am dense... I know that. I am working on developing myself as a parent and a person to be more present and responsive.

Anyway, Father's Day:
On Father's Day our 5 year old threw a massive tantrum, and I was angry. I applied this same approach, though he was trying to thrash around a lot and I didn't want the rocks to cut him up so I was holding him tightly. I left a red mark on his face, though it didn't bruise, from my thumb. I have since then learned the extent of the story, which is that she went to a crisis center for domestic violence and they helped her file police reports and told her about the 7 kinds of abuse I engage in regularly, ever since she met me over 14 years ago. However, I don't know what these are, as she hasn't told me. I have only got a few examples from her, like 1 month post deployment, in my sleep, 12 years ago, I held her in a choke hold for several hours that she couldn't get out of. She said, "You used to abuse me in your sleep." Her father read her entire 'abuse' list and has told me he 'remains unconvinced' that I am abusive, so I am going to take his word for it.

She reported that I was suffocating our son, and that he peed his pants either from asphyxiation or fear. I did not notice that he peed his pants, but I also didn't check for it, so unless it was a lot, it is possible I wouldn't have noticed it. He got a hold of himself, and ended up finishing the hike to the top of the mountain with us where I have pictures of him at the top and video of his reaction to the view.


Regarding an Affair (EA or PA):
It was very easy to engage her in conversations and once we started, she has been willing to talk for hours. Her top 3 needs can be summarized as "attention." My conclusion is that if some ONE else was meeting those needs, she wouldn't be willing to let me meet them. There was lots of behavior similar to her last affair, but there were also lots of differences. Her Dad was actually more worried about her cheating than me, and hounded her endlessly these last few weeks about it, as well as getting a therapist.

There is a chance she is going to CA to consummate some EA. I consider it a very low probability, but also something I can do nothing about, and will likely never know about if we stay together, unless she confesses on her own. Since it is a low probability, and if she does, I won't know unless she actually leaves and has a 'new' boyfriend a month later - I am just not going to worry about it. I am 100% responsible for what I can do, and that is it. I have been stocking that love bank as much as I can the last few weeks, and that is all I can do.

Since I dropped her off at the airport, we have been texting / talking constantly. At her layover, we did nightly prayer that we have started doing. This is tough for me because I haven't prayed regularly for 23 years, and even then, I didn't really believe it, I was just trying to say words that sounded good so that I wouldn't get called "disrespectful" and hit with a wooden spoon by my mom. I have realized an appreciation for the example of Christ. I am very familiar with it intellectually, but have never really appreciated it. I have committed myself trying to follow his example. I am also about to send her a message with a list of sunrise/sunset times in south CA, and we talked during her entire layover in Las Vegas. MrsBT grew up on those beaches, surfed, meditated, lived there. We met there. She has missed them very much and talked about a trip like this for years, planned it from her bed for many months, and finally gets to go. I don't think it is to go meet someone.

Melody, it is so nice to see you here again. I have never forgotten what you did for me. Thank you so much for the many years of happiness MrsBT and I have had, and for the many more we will have as we get through this patch. I have faith that if I keep doing what I am doing (working on me, not avoiding my commitments by playing games, etc.) we will get through this and be better than ever.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3008976 07/26/19 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Screaming is irresponsible use of your mouth, so it gets covered, and you get asked to get ahold of yourself until you do.



Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
On Father's Day our 5 year old threw a massive tantrum, and I was angry. I applied this same approach, though he was trying to thrash around a lot and I didn't want the rocks to cut him up so I was holding him tightly. I left a red mark on his face, though it didn't bruise, from my thumb.


BT, I'm sorry for the situation you are in, but this happened to me as a kid so I just wanted to chime in. This is a terrifying way to be disciplined. I was held down as a child and it gave me claustrophobia to this day. I can still remember the desperation I felt. Where you are additionally plugging half of his airways at the same time, this is not discipline, it's terrorizing abuse.

I know you said you are not defending the method; I pray you also stop it.

S.


Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
Sunnytimes #3008989 07/28/19 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunnytimes
I know you said you are not defending the method; I pray you also stop it.


It is already stopped.

I already know, have known for a long time, that I don't know how to be a parent. I don't have good examples to model after. I am trying my best. I appreciate your perspective, because it never occurred to me that this method could be considered abuse. I don't know when it occurred to my wife to call it abuse, because I didn't hear about it until after she said she reported it to police. It is not the coat hangars and belts that I knew as a child. Compared to that, it seemed reasonable. With that said, I have never heard someone offer a method of dealing with a screaming child that is throwing a tantrum. I have seen a great number of people "deal" with it by just giving the child what they want, or distracting them with some other thing they want. I have also seen the kinds of kids those children become.

I would really appreciate your perspective: How would you recommend an obstinate child throwing a tantrum be dealt with? Currently, I have no idea, because the approach I was using has been discarded as no longer acceptable.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3008990 07/28/19 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble

I would really appreciate your perspective: How would you recommend an obstinate child throwing a tantrum be dealt with? Currently, I have no idea, because the approach I was using has been discarded as no longer acceptable.


By the age of 5 a child should have learnt better coping mechanisms. The fact that he still has tantrums means either that he is modeling himself on a parent who has tantrums or that he has not learnt a better approach. Does he do this in school or just at home?

When he throws a fit you leave. No child of 5 is going to continue screaming once they have lost their audience. Let the rocks cut him up (I'm betting they would not have done so) but that would have been a lesson for him to learn.

Then at a neutral moment when all is calm, teach him some appropriate coping mechanisms. Explain that tantrums are baby behaviour. If he is frustrated because he wants something, he will need to now learn how to negotiate. Explain that this is a very powerful tool because both parties will be happy. (MB tools are not just for adults.)

Model this back to him:
You: "bed in 5 minutes"
Him: "no"
You: "if you do not go in 5 minutes, you will miss your bedtime story because I have other children to put to bed. I love reading you stories so let's work together to finish what you are doing so that you can meet your deadline".


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
BTinTrouble #3008992 07/28/19 09:23 AM
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Have you ever read His Needs Her Needs for Parents?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



BrainHurts #3008994 07/28/19 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you ever read His Needs Her Needs for Parents?


No, I didn't know that existed. Is it about parenting? Or meeting needs in marriage while being parents? Looking into it.

@living_well - THANK YOU!

We home schooled until this year, they will start in public school in a couple weeks. They are pretty much the best kids ever. Everyone says so. Family members tell their kids to act like ours (which I didn't think was fair to their kids, because I thought a child's behavior reflects their parents more than the child - now I don't know what I think...). They fight over stuff like kids do (3 boys and the baby girl), but they listen, they spontaneously show affection for each other, us, and others, they will share with other kids, hug when a kid is crying, and mind their manners with adults. They smile and laugh and have fun, but will be considerate and whisper when you tell them a baby is sleeping in the next room. They are slowly learning to be responsible for their commitments, make decisions, etc.

In the past we (mostly wife, no one talks to me) have gotten comments about, "Is it really necessary that we don't give him a treat for not finishing his food?" and other comments about how strict we are, coming from her family mostly, but it is difficult to take these comments seriously when the same people saying them are telling their kids to act like ours.

At the end of the day, I believe there is a partial correct answer in what we (I) have been doing, and I don't want to lose that part as I learn better ways to do things. Answers like yours, living_well, speak to my desire to instill discipline, but do it with more compassion than what I have been.

Thank you for this. Is it OK if I continue to toss up specific incidents as I encounter them, if I am struggling to find a positive, loving way to instill discipline?

I am also about to start Stages (a program that talks about child development) through our church, and have started a Parenting daily devotional study.

I came to this forum 10 years ago with the understanding that I had no business assuming I knew how to be a good husband, recognizing I had a lot to learn.

In retrospect, I don't know why I could realize that, but still think I had any business assuming I knew how to be a good father.

I have a lot to learn.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3008995 07/28/19 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble

Thank you for this. Is it OK if I continue to toss up specific incidents as I encounter them, if I am struggling to find a positive, loving way to instill discipline?


Of course and I am not familiar with the book Brainy pointed you to. I'm sure that is good. MB principles are best learnt in childhood.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I don't know why I could realize that, but still think I had any business assuming I knew how to be a good father.

I have a lot to learn.


The irony is that by the time we parents have a clue, the babies are grown up and gone taking our worst habits with them :-(


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
living_well #3009000 07/29/19 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by living_well
The irony is that by the time we parents have a clue, the babies are grown up and gone taking our worst habits with them :-(


I saw this with my grandmother. Her children resented her and had problems with her even after she died, but us grandkids only knew her as the grandmother she was, wise, kind and gentle. For a long time, I couldnt understand her children, and their issues with her. It is slowly coming clear.

Thank you for your willingness to offer your perspective. My brain is shutting down because it is late, so I dont have anything today.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #3009003 07/29/19 05:14 AM
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Quick tip on any time anybody is in full on crisis mode from the training I give for a mental health facility (coincidentally, my first trainer certification also included several people from a school district); leave them alone. The approach is "the least amount of interaction necessary for safety."

You can not deal or reason with someone who is in full on emotional crisis - be it a five year old, dementia patient, you, your spouse, whomever.

The crisis state will, hopefully, work itself out, and you can later attempt to investigate the triggers and come up with plans for prevention of the next crisis.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
HoldHerHand #3009011 07/29/19 11:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 398
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 398
Happen to have a reference idea (link even?) to examples of plans to prevent the next crisis?

MrsBT comes home tonight from CA trip. Have a friend watching kids, but worried she will be too exhausted from drinking with friends to be up for anything. Going to stop at Peaks Lounge on the way home, one of top 10 places in Denver, 27th floor lounge with awesome view we have never been to before.

Doctors appointments with kids soon, then going home so kids can make Welcome Home cards for mom.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

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