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I'm not sure how many people are still around who remember me. This is writer1. A lot of my story is probably on here somewhere for those who care to find it.

Brief recap: I found Marriage Builders about ten years ago after my affair that resulted in the birth of my OC. My husband and I reconciled and have been raising my OC together since she was born. The OM has never met her and I have had no contact with him for ten years. My husband was involved in an EA (with some physical contact but not sex) with his ex-girlfriend for roughly the first ten years of our marriage. I didn't know most of what was going on between them during that time, though her family and my family were "friends." I came back about two years ago, when my husband briefly reached out to this ex-girlfriend and expressed the fact that he still had feelings for her. We talked to the Harley's at this time and I was on the radio show. I am very familiar with MB and my husband and I have read many of the books, but we haven't always done a very good job of following the program consistently.

Well, I'm back for the worst possible reason. Three weeks ago tomorrow, I received a message from a woman I'd never met before telling me that she'd had an affair with my husband. When I confronted him about it, he admitted the entire thing. I was absolutely devastated. They'd met online in mid-June, quickly entered into an emotional affair, and eventually met up in a hotel on two consecutive days for sex (she lives four hours away and drove up for the encounter). She contacted me a week later when my husband tried to break it off with her and she got angry. He immediately ended all contact with her that day and has really been doing everything right ever since. He deactivated his FB account (they met on FB). I've had complete access to his phone, computer, and accounts since then and am pretty sure there has been no contact. My husband says he has absolutely no desire to ever contact her again. Other than work, he has not gone anywhere without me since I discovered the affair. We've been reading Surviving an Affair (again). My husband says he loves me very much and that he is willing to do anything possible to save our marriage. He says he has no desire to contact the OW and doesn't seem to be suffering through any symptoms of withdrawal. Their relationship was very short, so I suppose this makes sense. We've been spending all of our time together, talking openly and honestly, being close, reading, spending vast amounts of UA time together, etc.

I admit, I'm still struggling with it all. I'm better than I was a few weeks ago, but it is still so difficult to believe we've ended up here again. I've been suffering from physical symptoms of stress including an inability to eat or sleep and general feelings of anxiety and depression. I am also struggling massively with mental images of my husband and this woman (who is 14 years younger than I am). I feel incredibly insecure and just generally like my entire universe has been tipped upside down.

I want my marriage to emerge from this stronger and better than it has ever been before. Ten years ago, after my affair, MB helped me realize just how destructive and painful affairs can be, for everyone involved, and I resolved that I never wanted infidelity to be a part of my life again. I thought my husband felt the same way. He has really been beating himself up over what happened. He has expressed deep remorse for his actions and really seems to honestly want to get our marriage on the right track. I love my husband with all my heart. I believe him when he says he loves me. The past three weeks, we've been closer and more open than we've been in years. But I know that, at this point, we have a very narrow path to recovery and we can't afford to stray from it at all.

I don't have any specific questions at the moment, other than maybe: Am I absolutely crazy for attempting to go through recovery again? Maybe that's rhetorical. I'm not sure. We've been married almost 26 years and I can't imagine my life without my husband. I think what I really need is support and just help dealing with all of the feelings I'm having. For some reason, this feels so much different and worse than anything we've gone through in the past. I just hurt. Everywhere.


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Originally Posted by writer1
I'm not sure how many people are still around who remember me. This is writer1. A lot of my story is probably on here somewhere for those who care to find it.

Brief recap: I found Marriage Builders about ten years ago after my affair that resulted in the birth of my OC. My husband and I reconciled and have been raising my OC together since she was born. The OM has never met her and I have had no contact with him for ten years. My husband was involved in an EA (with some physical contact but not sex) with his ex-girlfriend for roughly the first ten years of our marriage. I didn't know most of what was going on between them during that time, though her family and my family were "friends." I came back about two years ago, when my husband briefly reached out to this ex-girlfriend and expressed the fact that he still had feelings for her. We talked to the Harley's at this time and I was on the radio show. I am very familiar with MB and my husband and I have read many of the books, but we haven't always done a very good job of following the program consistently.

Well, I'm back for the worst possible reason. Three weeks ago tomorrow, I received a message from a woman I'd never met before telling me that she'd had an affair with my husband. When I confronted him about it, he admitted the entire thing. I was absolutely devastated. They'd met online in mid-June, quickly entered into an emotional affair, and eventually met up in a hotel on two consecutive days for sex (she lives four hours away and drove up for the encounter). She contacted me a week later when my husband tried to break it off with her and she got angry. He immediately ended all contact with her that day and has really been doing everything right ever since. He deactivated his FB account (they met on FB). I've had complete access to his phone, computer, and accounts since then and am pretty sure there has been no contact. My husband says he has absolutely no desire to ever contact her again. Other than work, he has not gone anywhere without me since I discovered the affair. We've been reading Surviving an Affair (again). My husband says he loves me very much and that he is willing to do anything possible to save our marriage. He says he has no desire to contact the OW and doesn't seem to be suffering through any symptoms of withdrawal. Their relationship was very short, so I suppose this makes sense. We've been spending all of our time together, talking openly and honestly, being close, reading, spending vast amounts of UA time together, etc.

I admit, I'm still struggling with it all. I'm better than I was a few weeks ago, but it is still so difficult to believe we've ended up here again. I've been suffering from physical symptoms of stress including an inability to eat or sleep and general feelings of anxiety and depression. I am also struggling massively with mental images of my husband and this woman (who is 14 years younger than I am). I feel incredibly insecure and just generally like my entire universe has been tipped upside down.

I want my marriage to emerge from this stronger and better than it has ever been before. Ten years ago, after my affair, MB helped me realize just how destructive and painful affairs can be, for everyone involved, and I resolved that I never wanted infidelity to be a part of my life again. I thought my husband felt the same way. He has really been beating himself up over what happened. He has expressed deep remorse for his actions and really seems to honestly want to get our marriage on the right track. I love my husband with all my heart. I believe him when he says he loves me. The past three weeks, we've been closer and more open than we've been in years. But I know that, at this point, we have a very narrow path to recovery and we can't afford to stray from it at all.

I don't have any specific questions at the moment, other than maybe: Am I absolutely crazy for attempting to go through recovery again? Maybe that's rhetorical. I'm not sure. We've been married almost 26 years and I can't imagine my life without my husband. I think what I really need is support and just help dealing with all of the feelings I'm having. For some reason, this feels so much different and worse than anything we've gone through in the past. I just hurt. Everywhere.

Hello again, Writer. I'm so sorry to hear about this.

How did they meet on FB? I've never been on it, but how does one meet a complete stranger on there? I know that friend requests are sent, but how did the initiator know to send the request to the other person? Wouldn't there have to be a common interest to begin with? How did she know his name, or he hers?

Also, it doesn't sound AT ALL credible that this woman would drop her knickers for sex with a complete stranger whom she knew was married (she must have known, because she outed him to you) and then throw a hissy fit when he wants to stop. Why not "easy come easy go"? She hit back at him because they had a lot more than 2 nights in a hotel as near-strangers, I think. Other Women do not blackmail married men for as little as that. I strongly suspect that there was a lot more to their relationship than he has told you.

Indeed, for that matter, why did he want to stop? If they were able to have two days of sex (and where were you? How did he get away with that?), why wouldn't he just look forward to the next time?

In other words, I wonder if you have the full story here. It doesn't hang together for me.


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Originally Posted by writer1
They'd met online in mid-June, quickly entered into an emotional affair, and eventually met up in a hotel on two consecutive days for sex (she lives four hours away and drove up for the encounter).

If he was able to have sex for two days with another woman, with the certainty that you would have no idea about it, he is perfectly capable of having a means of contact still today that you know nothing about.

I take it he was supposed to be at work when he was at the hotel, and that you have no idea whom he contacts, or how, from work.

Originally Posted by writer1
I don't have any specific questions at the moment, other than maybe: Am I absolutely crazy for attempting to go through recovery again?

Yes, you are absolutely crazy to attempt this again with a man who has been reaching out to other women for affairs through so much of your marriage, and twice recently, and who tells you such a half-baked story about this last affair.

The only way you should attempt recovery is with a life-change that makes more affairs impossible; such as his retiring from his job and being at home with you full-time.


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Hi SugarCane! A familiar name.

My husband sent her a friend request on FB because she was someone he had a few friends in common with. She lives in the town we used to live in and was once married to someone from our old church, though my husband says he didn't know her before and I didn't recognize her from her photos. When he was on FB, he would friend pretty much anyone he had any kind of connection with, so that part wasn't really unusual for him. He had hundreds of friends, most people he didn't know in real life.

What he's told me about the affair is that they originally started communicating because she had recently removed herself from the records of our old church (Mormon) and posted about it on FB. My husband and I are ex-Mormons too, so he commented on that. She started private messaging him, platonic at first, then asking questions about if he was married or not, and if so, happily or not? The private messaging eventually became texting when he gave her his phone number and then talking on the phone. After about two weeks, she suggested she come up to meet up with him in person to see if they were "compatible." She made the hotel reservation and he told me he was going to attend a retirement party for a co-worker so he could meet her there after work. He spent about four hours in the hotel with her that day and then returned early the next morning for a quick meet-up (45 minutes or so) before going to work. I didn't know he'd left earlier than usual since I was asleep.

After the meeting, my husband figured out pretty quickly that he didn't want to continue in the relationship. Apparently (and I won't get too graphic here) things didn't go the way he'd thought they might on a physical level. Within days, he was trying to break off the relationship. When he finally told her he didn't think it was a good idea for them to see each other again and that he didn't see the relationship going anywhere, she contacted me the next morning and dropped the bomb.

In all fairness, my husband has said many times that he has no idea what he was thinking or how things progressed so quickly. She seems to have been the aggressor and the one most interested in propelling the relationship forward. He seems utterly aghast over what happened and has even stated that he feels "violated" though I'm not sure why, since he clearly went to the hotel willingly. He seems very disgusted with himself. I strongly suspect that, for him at least, it was very much a sexual thing. Our marriage has been struggling and distant for awhile and it had been months since the last time we had sex. I'm not making excuses for him. But he does seem genuinely confused regarding how he allowed himself to enter into this situation.


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Originally Posted by writer1
My husband sent her a friend request on FB because she was someone he had a few friends in common with. She lives in the town we used to live in and was once married to someone from our old church, though my husband says he didn't know her before and I didn't recognize her from her photos. When he was on FB, he would friend pretty much anyone he had any kind of connection with, so that part wasn't really unusual for him. He had hundreds of friends, most people he didn't know in real life.

That wouldn't cut it for me, I'm afraid. He sent her a friend request? He was trolling for action, in my view.

And if he was on FB friending people he had any kind of connection with (whoever initiated it), and had hundreds of "friends", then his interests were there instead of in your marriage and with you. What married man, father of a 10-year-old, with a full-time job and other (grown-up) kids and step-kids, has the time to be on FB, unless he makes that time by checking out from you?


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I am sorry to say Writer that I agree with SugarCane.

Many red flags go up in this story indicating to me that your WH is a serial cheater out trolling for action. For one, with the infidelity you have experienced and the fact that you are students of Marriage Builders, why did you not have EP’s in place? Why does he have an unchecked Facebook account, or one at all for that matter, where he was able to connect with someone without your knowledge?

You realize that it is not common to reach out to someone who ‘lives in a town we used to live in and was once married to someone from our old church.’ In the early days of social media, I think it was more common to friend anyone, but now it is not common at all. The only reason people reach out to someone who they have almost no connection at all with, or accept a friendship with the same, is to ‘connect’ if you know what I mean. That is exactly what he was doing. Why would he care what someone he has never met is doing in her life, enough to watch her posts on social media? He wouldn’t. That is not the reason he friended her.

I’m sorry to say he is trolling. Based on this and his history, I think it is safe to assume this is not the first time he has trolled, and I would frankly question how much of what he does you really know about (especially given the lack of transparency that allowed this happen already).

You have been through a lot already. He is educated, on the pain and devastation of affairs, how to avoid them, MB, etc. He actively chose to do this despite being educated. You cannot safeguard yourself against someone who is actively choosing to cheat. I would be done with this marriage.

If you are not willing to leave for this, I would at least ask him to take a polygraph to prove that you are making a decision with all the information in hand. I am going to bet money you are not, and if you find out the truth, maybe then it will be easier to be done.

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I will start out by saying that I acknowledge that the situation is very difficult to comprehend. My husband acknowledges this too.

He has been very forthright about answering all of my questions, thoroughly and in detail, complete with a specific timeline of how their relationship unfolded, which is why I believe he is telling the truth. Also, I've known him a long time and I know how to read him. While my husband has a tendency to hide things from me, he isn't necessarily very good at it. I had a sense something was going on, though I didn't know exactly what. Also, in the past, whenever I've asked him direct questions about incidents, he has told the truth. He doesn't usually lie to direct questions. Once his past indiscretions were brought to the light of day, he was very open about talking about them.

As far as MB goes, my husband was familiar with the program and this site back when I was posting here before, but he never really wanted to follow the program. We had read some of the materials together and filled out some of the questionnaires, but I wouldn't say he knew as much about MB as I did, not by a long shot. So we never really followed the program. In fact, he grew to resent my posting here because he thought I'd become too emotionally invested and that it was preventing me from fully healing from my own betrayal. And he might have been right. I was spending a lot of time on MB, responding to a lot of posts, and it was taking a lot of my time and attention. That's one reason I stopped.

My husband definitely has a history of being unfaithful, though this is the first time he has had a sexual affair in almost 26 years of marriage. He definitely had poor boundaries when it came to FB. Both of us were spending entirely too much time there. He was the one who deactivated his account without my even asking. He did have a wide network of friends on there. He told me he originally friended this woman because they had two friends in common who used to go to church with us and he saw that she had posted a letter showing her recent resignation from the church on her page. My husband also recently resigned from the church, so he sent her a friend request and then commented on her photo about her leaving the church. She was the one who started private messaging him after that and he responded. I'm not saying this is okay and neither is my husband, but it's what happened, and he has taken the steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.

For now, I am committed to seeing if my marriage can be saved. That's what my husband wants too. I believe him when he says that. I can see the anguish and pain this has caused him and his remorse feels real and genuine. I've also set up my own boundaries and let him know that I am unwilling to put up with any more lies or deceit. If I find out he is being untruthful, I am prepared to move directly to Plan B. If this happens again, I will leave and never look back. He knows this and accepts those terms. I hope it doesn't come to that. I'm doing my part to assure it doesn't. I'm monitoring all of his technology for any signs of contact and I'm not finding anything. Other than work, he hasn't gone anywhere without me. He calls me from work on his breaks and lunch and is home within 15 minutes of getting off work. He hasn't been spending any time on his phone or computer at home other than filling out job applications and checking email, and he does that in my full view so I can monitor that as well. We've been talking openly and honestly for the first time in a long time, even about hard stuff.

My husband seems much more open to MB now. He's reading the books with me, discussing love busters and emotional needs and filling out the questionnaires. I even asked if he would be willing to post here and he said that he would. I still have hope for my marriage. It is cautious hope, but it is hope. I love my husband very much. I think my marriage is worth fighting for. I came back here because I could really use the help and support of a community of people who have been where I am now.


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Originally Posted by writer1
I will start out by saying that I acknowledge that the situation is very difficult to comprehend. My husband acknowledges this too.


Your situation can be very complicated or not - the MB tools to recover from an affair are pretty straightforward regardless.

If your spouse is a serial cheater, it is that much more important to follow every single MB principle to the letter. With a serial cheater, not only do you have to follow MB tools like UA time, but you MUST follow stringent EPs and you MUST monitor the serial cheater. For life.

Many of us knew in the last thread that you were heading for more trouble when it seemed like pretty straightforward things like changing a phone number and getting in UA time were not being followed.

This isn't necessarily for you, writer. You've been here long enough, and if you haven't implemented MB into your M, then I don't think it's going to happen.

I'm writing this for the people who may be reading who think they can cut corners and that just having a "willing" WS (who doesn't actually do anything other than say they are willing) will get you more of the same...more affairs and more pain. You would be better off going to Plan B/D.


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Originally Posted by writer1
My husband seems much more open to MB now. He's reading the books with me, discussing love busters and emotional needs and filling out the questionnaires. I even asked if he would be willing to post here and he said that he would.


You said he was "willing" to do MB too last time.

I told you then, when serial cheaters get caught will agree to everything under the sun. It really means NOTHING if the actions don't back up their words.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by writer2
but my husband has expressed a willingness to go through the MB program with me, so I feel like that is a good sign.

But it's not. Serial offenders and waywards who don't want a divorce have no problem agreeing to everything and then when it gets down to the nitty gritty the waffling and excuses start.



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Originally Posted by writer1
He has been very forthright about answering all of my questions, thoroughly and in detail, complete with a specific timeline of how their relationship unfolded, which is why I believe he is telling the truth. Also, I've known him a long time and I know how to read him. While my husband has a tendency to hide things from me, he isn't necessarily very good at it.


This was my serial cheater X as well. He would answer all my questions, cry when he got caught, agree to everything under the sun including taking a poly.

MarriageBuilders does not promote "talking" to a wayward to determine if you are getting the full truth.


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Hi SusieQ.

I understand your skepticism.

My husband was not willing to do MB last time, not the right way at least. But so far, he has been willing to do everything I have asked of him this time. I'm not sure what else he can do at this point. He has said at least a hundred times that if he could just turn back the clock and make a different choice, he would do so in a heartbeat. But in the absence of that possibility, he is doing everything he can to help me heal and to fix our marriage. That's all I can ask. I'm the one here, seeing his reactions and his willingness to correct past mistakes. I'm the only one in a position to make a judgement about my husband's sincerity and love and willingness to do the right thing. And I believe he sincerely and honestly wants to do that.

I'm sure a lot of people will tell me it's hopeless. I don't think the Harley's would. I know they've helped others deal with repeat affairs in the past. I also don't consider my husband a "serial cheater" since he's only had two affairs in almost 26 years of marriage, the long-term on/off EA with his ex-girlfriend and the latest affair with a woman he only knew a few weeks. I don't know what constitutes "serial cheater" vs. someone who made the same mistake twice (and many years apart), but I do think there is a difference.

Our marriage wasn't in a good place when my husband's affair occurred. We weren't meeting each other's needs or spending enough UA time together. We were fighting and engaging in love busters galore. We were dealing with life stresses including fairly serious money problems and caring for my elderly father-in-law who has COPD and moved in with us last October. We are now working on correcting those issues. We are filling out the questionnaires, learning how to meet each other's needs, eliminating love busters, spending ample UA time together. My father-in-law has moved into assisted care, where he should have been all along.

Again, my intention is to try to save my marriage and make it stronger, healthier, and happier than it has ever been. If I can't get support for that on the forum, then so be it. I still think the MB program, website, and books have a lot to offer us and we intend to continue working through this together. If it ends in divorce anyway, then at least I will know I gave it everything I've got and I won't have any regrets looking back.


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Originally Posted by writer1
Again, my intention is to try to save my marriage and make it stronger, healthier, and happier than it has ever been. If I can't get support for that on the forum, then so be it.

We are supporting you, Writer. We are doing so by trying to explain the changes that need to be made if your marriage is to succeed with someone with your husband's track record. Just because we haven't bought into your husband's "remorse" does not mean we are not supporting you.

Susie and I - and I think some of the other posters to this thread - have been through the heartache of repeated D Days after which we realised that our husband's remorse had been either an act, or extremely short-lived, and we realised also that it was not possible for us to know when they were lying - they had been so convincing. The damage that this does to a woman's mental health is incalculable. We are trying to spare you that, knowing about your husband's long-term affair and this latest hookup. He has shown a remarkable commitment, for most of your marriage, to deceiving you.

Please don't characterise our warnings as not supporting you, just because they are not what you want to hear.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane


Please don't characterise our warnings as not supporting you, just because they are not what you want to hear.


I am willing to make whatever changes are necessary. My husband is too. But I'm seeing a lot of advice here to go immediately to Plan B/Divorce. I don't know how that would help in my desire to recover my marriage. I am not ready to give up on my marriage yet.

These are the things we are doing:

1. Reading several MB books including "Surviving an Affair" and "His Needs, Her Needs."
2. Going through the various MB questionnaires together.
3. Spending way more than 15 hours of UA time together each week and meeting each other's EN's.
4. WH has given me complete access to all of his devices and accounts and I monitor them daily.
5. WH does nothing by himself other than go to work. He calls me on breaks/lunch. He changed jobs so that he now works in the same town we live in instead of 50 miles away. Affair did not involve his workplace. OW lives over 200 miles away, so no opportunity for a chance encounter.
6. Affair was exposed on D-day to family and close friends.
7. No contact letter sent (by me since my husband did not want to contact her at all so he sent me her final emails).

If I'm missing anything, I am open to suggestions. We've basically been dedicating all of our time and energy to trying to get our marriage back on track since D-day.


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Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by SugarCane


Please don't characterise our warnings as not supporting you, just because they are not what you want to hear.


I am willing to make whatever changes are necessary. My husband is too. But I'm seeing a lot of advice here to go immediately to Plan B/Divorce. I don't know how that would help in my desire to recover my marriage.


Again, you are mischaracterizing. The thread speaks for itself - but you asked in your first post if you were crazy for attempting recovery in this situation...and outlined your physical symptoms that you have been struggling with.

You had two of our best posters warning you that your WH's story doesn't add up and that he is a serial cheater - who will likely not change. (The same warning that was given to you in the last thread.)

In your responses to SC and unwritten, you are doing what you have done in the past - you are dismissing advice and feedback. That hasn't worked for you in the past, has it?


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Originally Posted by writer1
If I'm missing anything, I am open to suggestions.


I think you need to re-read what SC and unwritten wrote to you. Your WH's story stinks to high heaven. He has been carrying on a SSL for most of your M and I wouldn't be surprised if there have been other affairs. You need to poly him. You cannot recover with a wayward who is still keeping secrets from you.

I will be back...There is more...


Ddays 2007 and 2011
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Originally Posted by writer1
3. Spending way more than 15 hours of UA time together each week and meeting each other's EN's.


This UA time is OUTSIDE of the home?

(This was an issue in the last thread)


Ddays 2007 and 2011
Plan B 6/21/11
Divorced July 2012
2 kids
How to Plan B Correctly
Parallel Parenting in Plan B
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Originally Posted by writer1

4. WH has given me complete access to all of his devices and accounts and I monitor them daily.


Does this mean that you have quietly put spyware on all of his devices?

What about his workplace computer and phone?


Ddays 2007 and 2011
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Originally Posted by writer1

6. Affair was exposed on D-day to family and close friends.

Did you expose to anyone on her side? What about her FB friends?


Originally Posted by writer1
7. No contact letter sent (by me since my husband did not want to contact her at all so he sent me her final emails).

Has she tried to contact him since she told you about the affair? Would you know if she were doing this via his work?


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I'll try to cover everything.

I do believe my husband is telling the truth. No, I do not believe there have been any other affairs. There is no evidence to support that. My husband has never been one to spend time away from home outside of work. That's why, when he told me there was a "retirement party" for a co-worker, I was suspicious. He doesn't generally socialize outside of work. I believe he is telling me the truth. In fact, he is going to start his own thread here tonight. I don't think I am dismissing feedback. I simply do not have any reason to believe there have been more than the two affairs, the EA and the recent PA.

Yes, a lot of our UA time is outside of the house, at least twice a week. The intimate need-meeting generally takes place inside the house, as seems appropriate.

I have not put spyware on his phone or computer, but he's been open about letting me see them any time, without warning. I can't really afford spyware right now. We are in a financial situation right now that has no wiggle room whatsoever, which is why a polygraph isn't possible (not to mention that I couldn't find anything available anywhere near our small town).

I did not expose to the OW's friends or family because she blocked me on FB within minutes of contacting me about the affair. I have no way of obtaining that information. My WH isn't on FB at all. And the emails from her I was referring to occurred on D-day, directly after I found out about the affair. The last one was sent about an hour after she told me. There has been NC since then.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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