<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>During that time, he was often cruel and indifferent towards me. Sometimes he would flat out reject me and send me into a profound depression making me wonder if it was worth it. I often considered leaving. <P>He behaved this way toward me because of the immense magnitude of his 'sins' and the horrible fallout from his actions. He felt too much damage had been done and that there was no hope in ever repairing this marriage or that I would ever forgive him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's exactly how my H has been treating me sometimes.<BR>I get a cold fright thinking crazy thoughts like "He must be thinking of her and oc"<BR>Sometimes when a sad song is on the radio or like on Christmas Day,"Silent Night" was on and he got overwhelmed when it said,"round young virgin mother and child". His eyes filled w/tears and for a few minutes he became distant,I became scared.<P>"He must be thinking of her and his possible child",I thought. I said nothing even though I wanted to.<P>There are times I feel like sitting w/him while we watch tv,and he'll say"Why would you want to sit by me? You act like you hate me sometimes." <BR>I feel crushed.....It's usually when I cry for no apparent reason, then try to be comforted by him and he rejects me.<P>NOW I see.....Guilt, withdrawal....hmmmmm.<P>Catnip, you have saved the day for me so many times in this past 5 wks. Thankyou Woman!<P>We spent a splendid Christmas with our friends who just lost their 1st grandchild. We laughed as if nothing were wrong in our lives and truly I forgot about things for the day for the most part. My H and I laughed like we used to and I'm so happy today for that.<P>I got the best card from him too.Romantic and loving. and he again said "thankyou,Debi"<BR>at the bottom,and of course "love,Bobby"<P>One last thing,the chapter 13 was filed Fri. OW will be getting letter stating she'll only get 10 cents on the dollar for the twenty-five thousand he owes her![he paid five thousand through the lawyer]<P>Hope she gets so pissed off she won't have anything to do with him when c is born.....fat chance huh?<P> Debi<P><P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Yeah, I really believe the "Withdrawal" we are all so terrified of is simply their shame in many cases. <P>For nearly a year I worried myself sick that my husband's withdrawal was his pining away for the Big New Porker when I know in my heart it wasn't her at all...it was his devastation of the destruction he caused, his guilt and his shame and his remorse. He couldn't take it. It made him sick, it made him crazy, it made him drink, it made him want to self destruct. He didn't feel he deserved me or what we had together. My forgiveness made him ashamed.<P>When I realized his self imposed hell was due to all the above reasons, I made up my mind to be careful not to beat him with this knowledge and allow him to heal. His healing facilitated my healing, which caused us to come together and heal together. We are doing this in spite of the many, many issues we still face.<P>The forgiveness factor is the catalyst to the healing. You can tell your husband you forgive him, and mean it even if later you don't always feel it. It is a dance...two steps forward, one back, and so on. Your forgiveness does not have to be perfect...just an offering. Mean it when you say it.<P>I'm so glad you had such a nice holiday, that you laughed together and shared a wonderful day. <P>My guess is that he didn't get all teary eyed thinking about the fat NON virgin, but was simply touched by the poignancy of the song Silent Night, and the wonderful spiritual feelings surrounding the two of you when he probably doesn't think he deserves such kindness and such blessings after all he has done. I come all undone when I hear O Holy Night, especially by a church choir. I launch into embarrassing shoulder shaking sobs it touches me so much.<P>This is such a tough time of year for everyone when you think about it. Everyone's feelings are at the surface, assessing their lives, their deeds and the future, looking to it with hope, wishing for peace, love and soe joy...just a little joy. <P>Thank God it's over, n'est pas?<P>Catnip =^^=

Right about my feelings as usual,Catnip.<BR>If you should ever write a book,I'll be first in line to buy it.<P>You have a way with words!<P>Thankyou for being there for me.<BR> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

I think the withdrawal issue should be separated into two different camps; i.e. Withdrawal #1: the pining away for the OW and, Withdrawal #2: the shame based withdrawal that produces similar symptoms such as seemingly rejection and coldness when it is simply self hate or humiliation and embarrassment.<P>Of course, withdrawal #2 is my personal favorite because the threat is removed and the jealousy factor is lessened...there's more to work with. <P>With W #2, the wayward spouse is in love with the betrayed spouse but just feels so bad about what they have done, the problems they have caused, and the terrible repercussions. It's easier for us to help the WS and for us to not take what seems to be rejection personally. <P>It should be fairly easy to determine which withdrawal the WS is in simply by what they say. If you hear a lot of stupid, pat responses like "I love you, I just don't know if I am IN LOVE with you" then it is probably withdrawal #1. He's probably still involved on some emotional level with the OW. <BR>If the wayward spouse is eager to tell you how much he loves you and wants the marriage to work on a 'good' day, then falls deep into depression and silence the next, it's probably his remorse and he is in Withdrawal #2.<P>I think in Withdrawal #2, the WS can't believe the BS is still hanging around and loving him, forgiving him and he is probably waiting for the axe to fall. <BR>He knows he caused the damage, he knows he doesn't deserve a break, he knows he should loose everything but isn't and it is just too much. He is probably wondering when his fair share of karma will hit.<P>It's nice when the WS comes out of the fog and starts thinking straight again and sees things the way they really are. <P>They emerge from Withdrawal #1, stunned that the BS is still there loving them, a honeymoon period begins for a while, then when everyone is feeling pretty good about everything, WS will plunge into Withdrawal #2. The nice thing about Withdrawal #2 is that, besides being less threatening and you having the ability to detach somewhat, it doesn't last as long. At least it didn't for me. We have withdrawal weekends now.<P>Every three or four weekends, my husband will wallow in his own misery for a weekend. He might as well wear a hair shirt, do penance and eat gruel. After his weekend of withdrawal (where it seems as though he hates me and wants nothing to do with me), he tells me of his deep sadness and remorse and how he would give anything to turn back the clock and how he wishes I would have come to that party with him. He goes onto explain it isn't me he hates, it is himself.<P>Just my opinion<P>Catnip =^^=

Well Catnip he's positively in #2!<BR>You said exactly what is going on here in the last 6 weeks.<P>On those "rejection" days I fall into such a self pity mode.<P>I start to think this isn't worth all the work.<P>I feel life will never be the same.<P>I long for the days before all of this even happened.<P>I start those damn "video tapes" of the fiery passion that goes with forbidden sex!<P>I long for that fiery passion, oh we've had it so many times, but I've been reading around about sex outside of marriage and how it's a drug and so passionate.....I can't even begin to heal with those tapes!<P>I feel a profound sense of sadness that won't leave some days.<P>I feel shame.<P>I feel humiliated.<P>I hate that she was a friend.<P>I am more cautious around other friends.<P>I can't take the pity in the voices of family.<P>Even though he tells me I have nothing to be ashamed of, I have changed my whole routine.<P>I no longer go to the same grocery stores or drug stores or the closest mall bcuz I always used to run into her, her mom and kids.<P>She would often act as if she didn't see me.<BR>I would tell my husband and he would actually make me doubt what she was doing! I know now it was avoidance on her part!!!!<P>Good news! She went to be with her H she threw out in OCT. in Florida w/her kids for Christmas! I didn't tell my H. My son's friend is her neighbor whose sister babysits for her and he told me yesterday. My son doesn't know either as his friends say he doesn't want to talk about it.<P>I pray they reconcile! She'll move maybe to Fla. It would be awsome for my family.<P>Now that the word is out her name has become mud around this small town and at school and church. I'm now hearing when she got preg. with her first and married her H rumors flew that it wasn't his! I found out she was a spoiled rich girl in high school and "did" lots of the guys!<P>My best friend from high school works at the h.s. she attended and knows plenty of alumni! HMMMMM I love the gossip!<P>Needless to say I found out she threw herself at my H all last spring always showing up with friends after he golfed at the bar they went to eat at. Every one's opinion is the same too! HEH...HEH...<BR>Especially MINE.<P>Ok Catnip, time to join him in a little tv watching. Oh I forgot to tell you I got a huge bouquet of flowers with a love note today....<BR> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

You guys are killin' me,<P> Are we all reading from the same script??<P> Catnip, you described my withdrawl # 2 wife to a tee. My wife is always telling me she can't be totally open and honest because she knows it will hurt me. Not selling me to short, huh??!!<P> Gemini1,<P> I know what you mean. The few( and I do mean few, there are priests that have more sex than I do), times my wife and I have been intimate, I've almost blown it by wondering if she was imagining OMs' head on my body!!<P> How do you get past this crap!!<P> God bless you, <P> <P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

Lynton I'm sure before all of this you and your wife had to have had some pretty "heated" and explosive times together in bed.(or on the floor or outside on the back porch or ummm...the kitchen table heh..heh..) In our 26 yrs. we HAVE.<P>It's just wondering if those times ever measure up to the times with ow......<P>We went to a holiday party at the bar up the street last week. We made sensual passionate love for a long time when we came home. I never once thought "do I measure up?" We resumed in the morning...He whispered how I have the best ***** .:O He told me he loved me... he caressed me so tenderly. I don't think of them when I'm with him. Maybe someday I will,but I hope not!<P>I truly think your W only thought of you during those times. Feeling and remembering your times shared TOGETHER. <P>I read your post on Christmas,and I cried.<P>I can tell you your D will always remember how special you made her day.<P>I now look back on my parents divorce and see and know(unfortunately)what my dad must have gone through. My mom would go w/om to Arizona on vacation and my dad would come "home" to care for my 2 sisters and me.<P>He would wake us for school,drive us there after making pancakes or eggs for breakfast.All after working night turn at the steel mill. I was a senior in h.s. that horrible year. I was so sure this would never ever happen to me. I got 1/2 my wish. My H didn't want ow he wants me.<P>Oh,some days I'd rather leave him for my self respect.<BR>I still might. It's the rollercoaster ride I first found out about in counseling. It's not fun. I never cared for amusement park rides anyway.<P> Bless you Lynton.<BR> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....<p>[This message has been edited by gemini1 (edited December 28, 2000).]

Dear Debi,<P> Just stepped outof a cold shower after reading your post( how did you know about the kitchen table?)<BR> In this imposed celibacy, I find myself thinking of those pasionate days of our relationship, and wanting to relive some of that passion. That makes the rejection of an unwilling, indiferent spouse even more devestating.<BR>I have learned,(the hard way, as usual) that I will never take those times for granted again. Thank you for your kind response.<P><BR> God bless you, <P>------------------<BR><P>Gregg

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In this imposed celibacy, I find myself thinking of those pasionate days of our relationship, and wanting to relive some of that passion. That makes the rejection of an unwilling, indiferent spouse even more devestating<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I certainly and sadly understand,Lynton.<P>I will pray she sees the error of her ways.<P>I will pray for you and your D.<P>I will never post something that makes you take a cold shower again......heh...heh... sorry.<BR>(table was one of the best though!)<BR> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....