Well I finally mustered the courage to call. I had a female friend call to get by the gate keeper...I then introduced myself and told her I needed her help in saving my marriage. I told her that my wife and her H were involed. She didn't say much (he was there) she didn't want my number - not sure she beleived me - I offered a time line and confirmation - she said I should call back tommorrow - I think she thinks I was pulling a bad prank! Advice! Should I tell my wife?

Don't tell your wife yet, call OMW back tomorrow. She probably has more to talk about, but you're right, he was probably standing right there...

Good job!!! You did it. She may be in a state of shock. I know I was. Or she may not have been able to talk with him there.

So call tomorrow. I am very proud of you. You did the hard thing.

Whatever happens, she now has a head's up, and will be watching him.

Been there, done that. I know how hard it is....I was shaking when I did it. I had a two hour conversation with her where she explained that contrary to what my WW believed, there was no "amicable divorce" in progress.

I suggest calling tomorrow as well and don't tell your WW....you are not obligated to and she will no doubt find out shortly. Have your evidence in front of you when you call again, because no doubt, if she confronts her WH he will deny, deny, deny. They all read from the same rule book.

Also he may figure it out and tell your wife. Batten down the hatches and prepare for the storm. She ain't gonna be happy.

After reading the MB site and starting a nice recovery with my FWW, I decided to confront the OM by email and tell him that I knew about what happened and that although I will always hate him, I love my S and we are going to make it work. The A happened more than 12 years ago and was just a one night stand followed by a short EA but I just discovered about six weeks ago. Little did I know that the OM's W was monitoring his email. I found out about this through a mutual acquaintance that gave me his email address. I felt terrible that Om's W had to find out this way so I sent another email to her explaining why I felt it was important to expose and left her my cell number. After not hearing anything for almost a week, she called me today. We talked for about an hour about a lot of things. She knew quite some time ago. I asked her why she did not let me know and she said that she was sure that I knew as well.

It was hard talking to her at first but I sympathized because she had to deal with the same thing I had to. She chose the same path that I have and they are happily recovered. I know the road to recovery will have some bumps but talking to her was something I felt I had to do to move forward.

I feel much better know that I know that she knows and that she is taking the steps in her M just as we are to keep this from happening again and causing the same pain for someone else.

This site has helped me immensely and I know that since D-Day and following the advice of MB and MC we have started to build the relationship that we always should have had. It is important for all of us to remember that even the BS contributed to the situation that created the environment for the A. I have taken responsibility for that and my FWW has taken responsibility for her mistakes. It probably helped that the A happened so long ago, but even long after the A had ended the deciet and lies continued. No marriage can survive without radical honesty from both sides.

I did not tell my FWW that I talked to OM's W yet because she had a really tough day. However, I will be telling her tommorrow because we both have an obligation to each other to put everything on the table.

Me (41)
FWW (39)
Married 18 years
PA 1994
EA lasted about nine months
D-Day 8/26/05
Recovering

My wife just called me @ work...she did not sound happy all she said was "I thought you wanted it to be civil" I didn't have time to talk because I was going into a meeting. She will call me back - I know her call was because the OM contacted her. What gets said now?

Spin,

To tell an unsuspecting wife that her H is cheating on her is one of the most CIVIL things a person can do! IMHO

k

Yes I agree but that might not stop my wife from putting a pillow over my head tonite if I don't address this correctly. I did this for my marriage not hers (OW). Although I know that if roles were reversed I would want to be told...I should have done it right away - in April - but I beleived at the time it was a one of thing (wrong turned into a EA and a PA). I also read - elsewhere - not to interfere w/ an affair that it would run its course.

Spin,

The fastest way to stop an A that continues is to EXPOSE to all folks close to both players.

It is also very CIVIL of you to stop your W from HAVING SEX WITH ANOTHER MAN!!

Do not listen to her fogbabble!! Or turn it around and babble right back at her..(there are examples of reverse fogbabble).

She will be very pissed at you and threaten the worst. Ride out the storm, stay calm, do not LB, let her cool off. This exposing thing goes on all the time here in the halls of MB and IT IS ALWAYS THE SAME!! It is amazing how similiar the different sitches become. Like reading from a script!

The OM's wife will be lowering the boom on him and you will see what side the OM's bread is buttered on.

Then your W will be very sad and blue that her little fantasy is over (withdrawal) then you will see her coming out of the fog as she is weaned from her drug.


""I also read - elsewhere - not to interfere w/ an affair that it would run its course.""

MY GOD!! Where did you read that? On the AdulterersRUS website? That is sooooo not true!!!!

k

Follow through with calling the OMW back and talking to her. She needs to know that the phone call was not a prank. More than likely she confronted the husband and he did everything in his power to make the phone call out to be nothing more than a hoax.

You want to make sure this problem is stopped in a positive way. Even though it's traumtic and painful, stopping the problem is better than the pain of not knowing and the pain of what happens if it continues and is found out later.

Wel you are probably going to hear that now you've done it, there is no longer any hope for your marriage, this is the final straw, she will never trust you again, how could you, why are you hurting the OM's family, she is done, she wants a divorce, blah, blah, blah.

You can respond "I will do whatever I can to save our marriage".

Then she will say blah, blah, blah, blah................

And you can respond "I took a vow for better or worse".

And on and on.

Be sure to talk to the OM's wife again, so that she will start putting pressure on. Also let her know that her husband contacted your wife about it.

Or, you just tell the OMW to look at his phone records following her conversation with him about the phone call... the evidence of him calling your wife will be right there on the 'table' so to speak. Proof enough for me.

And, don't raise your voice with your WW, just soft voice replies...calculated responses. Make her wonder what the ****** playbook you've got, that you aren't being surprised or bullied by her tactics. Strength will win here, appear to be a strong confident man, it will rattle her cage.

Hang in there.

Any news?

Well beleiver she said all that you said. She came home from work yesterday @ 10 AM after the OM contacted her. She went through all our finance stuff and made a lawyer's app. for Friday. She said that if there had been any hope..it's gone now. She said that she told me last week that to get her back that I should have let her go (re. move out myself). She said I keep diong everything wrong and that just because I beleive that our marriage will work that she doesn't and can't/won't.
I spoke to OMW last nite as well - she was concerned about how intamint my W @ OM were - I told her that I wasn't present but that my W did say they had sex ( her H did not tell her that ) he was there as well and I spoke to him as well - he makes it out that my wife has been the agressavive one persueing him even after his many attempts to end it..I said if that were true then he could have blocked her e-mail but he said that he couldn't because of work. He admitted to excange of photos letters etc. He said he deleted eveything and that he won't have anymore contact that he is trying to save his marriage. Everything sounded pretty good....BUT I don't beleive it - any of it - maybe I'm a sinic but somthing didn't feel right...through all of this I have relied on my gut instinct and a few things said by him have raised my spider senses - I know that he is just covering his own [censored] but he accused me of trying to ruin his marriage because there is no hope for my own and that he is a victim. His work related issue w/ W - not true as well - the deleting of photos: not true as well - I know because they didn't get sent to him directly - my W set up a website/space to share. I might call him a work today and tell him that I don't beleive it - he can end it or I will send her all that I know. My wife also said she was pursuing him...but did they get stories straight?

This is SOooo textbook (if any one situation can be).

Often A partners will talk aobut what a d-day will be like and they PLAN for it, oftentimes working out a scenario and a plan, for instance, one saying, "I'll take the blame." And they generally deny, deny, deny unless faced with irrefutable facts. Now is the time to send all the rest of the hard evidence to the OMW. Finish with the exposure all at once.

And your WW's reaction is exactly on...she had her cake and was eating it too, and now you've let the world now what a calorie pig she was. She had you both and will throw a temper tantrum, stomp her feet, get angry, cry, to get back to waht she had...but now that the bubble has burst she won't get back there. She wants her fantasy back...oh well.

She will revise history, "I never loved you, our M has been bad for a long time, blah, blah, blah..." They say the same thing.

Now is the time to finish exposure, send OMW the proof, and work on fulfilling her top 3 EN's.

The angrier WW gets, the more of an effect your exposure has made on her...

lol How silly of me to think it was the AFFAIR that was ruining his marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Great job on calling the OMW!

I don't know about everyone else - but I have not been discreet about my intentions or the books that I read - I leave them all over. She will pick one up every once and a while only to scim and then declare them to be in accurate or too little too late. She said last nite that I deserved someone batter in my life - someone who can give to me what she can't and that we don't bring the best of each other out. It drives her crazy that I don't accept the impending divorce and I responded that it drives me crazy that she doesn't see it my way..so why is she right and I'm wrong? She said that my actions are leading toward a bitter and hurtful divorce and if I continue we will end up hating each other. I also told her that if we split I intend on joint 50/50 custody of the children which she opposes - my lawyer assures me that this is the goal of the courts in Canada and whats best for the children - it will also limit by more than 2/3 the amount of support she is expecting. Well I guess I need to batten down the hatches.

spinmaker, she is like a crack addict who has just lost her crack pipe. She is furious at you for taking it away. Just smile sweetly and don't allow her to bait you into any fights. If you fight with her, you just hand her ammunition to use against you.

And stop talking about divorce. She is blathering on about divorce because she is angry that you took her crack pipe. Tell her you won't talk about divorce, you will only talk about working on your marriage. Then SMILE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Spin....

About now is when we tell the BS (right after exposure or re-exposure) to find a comfy seat with a view and grab some popcorn

coz this is gonna be a *** fireworks show ***

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You will witness verbal skyrockets and screaming pinwheels comming right out of your wife's mouth !!!

it is amazing how utterly predictable it all is

"How DARE YOU"
"YOU ruined any change we ever had."
"I'm never going to allow you to see the kids."
"We were only talking we never had sex"
"The OM's marriage was over long before we got together"

yadda yadda yadda

munch your popcorn and give NO INDICATION that the garbage she is spewing has any meaning or importance TO YOU

TELL HER THAT ONLY MARRIAGE RECOVERY IS OF INTEREST

PS

when it gets truely bizarre you can say...

"Can I speak to my wife please? I don't want to talk to the woman having an affair."

I beleive she has every intention of going to the lawyer and to start the formal process and I did tell her last night that I have NO intention of giving up. Thats when she said we will eventually hate each other - I find that hard to beleive since I haven't begun to hate her despite whats going on - I actually feel sympathy that I drove her to seek solice elsewhere - but I still want this to work..this may sound stupid...but what 3 EN's do you speak of? How do I know which ones and how do I do that if she doesn't want anything to do with me?

While fighting for you marriage you must remember to protect your backside. What ML says is dead on - do not discuss divorce. But this is not just assistance to save the marriage advice it is also to protect yourself legally.

Now that your wife knows your intentions regarding custody and it is not what she wants how does she fight it. Does she dig up dirt on you? Does she move out and try to take the kids with her and file immediately for temp custody which better positions herself as custody winner in the end? Does she trump up charges of child abuse or spousal abuse? I know a woman that beat herself up and called the cops on her husband. Luckily she was so doped up on prescription narcotics the cops believed the husband and ended up comitting the wife. By any stretch of the imagination, if you think she could set you up then protect yourself with an voice activated digital voice recorder...to monitor all your communications with her. Again, don't reveal the recorded conversations until court or your actual attorney advises otherwise.

Finally, if you want 50/50 custody you better be keeping a journal of your activities on behalf of the children. You need documentation so that when and IF you go to court it is not just her word against yours. You have proof. If you warn her to much about your acquiring proof then she'll acquire her proof...If you don't warn her you will have the advantage in court. WW's are far to fogged out and too busy thinking about their fix to bog the attorney down with details. You want her and attorney both overwhelmed looking in front of the judge.

Good Luck,
Mr. Wondering

perfect!

One thing that gets a wayward wife upset is if she begins to feel that the MM she is persueing is using her as a side-dish to his marriage. Most wives who get involved in an affair imagine that they have found (gag me) 'true love' and that the star-crossed lovers were meant to be together ... and that when things are sorted out they 'can be together at last' ... and they MOST OFTEN VERBALIZE that "everyone will be better off once we are finally together". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

in short .... they've lost their minds

and it is often the woman in the affair that gets DUMPED because it turns out the man in the affair never ~really~ intended to leave his wife and kids ... for many different reasons. He often still loves his wife and he often realized he will be living a much less affluent lifestyle if he divorces !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

and

once your wife finally gets it in her head that MM is NEVER going to leave his wife ... she is gonna fall HARD and her self-respect will be mud-covered .... and guess who gets the brunt of the blame??? YOU guessed it ---> YOU

She thinks MM/OM is going to leave his wife for her (because he said so)

and trust me

he's NOT going to (because he lied)

and your WW will NOT be likely to follow through with a divorce ~without~ OM/MM's guarantee he's also divorcing.

This is part of the *fireworks*

Just when you journal - make sure it's YOUR time with the kids, what you contribute to the kids, what time she is with them, etc.

I found out when H left me that even if he wanted to take the kdis from me due to my affair (when he left) here where I am in Canada (different provinces have different courts), my affair would have no ground in courts. So bringing it up would be pointless - it would be more about who has provided for the kids attention, financial, emotionally wise.

So keep that journal, as if you show you have spent 25-50% of the time with those kids or more, then you are definately entitled to that 50/50 joint...and yes it would significantly reduce what you would pay her for child support and your ratio of daycare, etc.

I don't know - what if she truely beleives that the A had noyhing to do w/ her feelings.

It's all HAWGWASH, spin, don't pay it any mind. Don't hang on the words of a person who is in the throes of an addiction and just lost their crack pipe. She is saying all the same rot they all say when you interfere in her affair. Just smile sweetly and offer her a Pepsi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just look at what you wrote...

"the A had nothing to do with her feelings"

does this even make sense?

shameless product placement !!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thats OK - I feel I'm "part of the new generation" - you know the ones who actually want to save their marriage - not take the easy route of divorce! And as for making sense - I'm not sure I've ever done that since she dropped the I don't love you anymore crap.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> don't encourage her

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I love this guy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Read up about Plan A and Emotional Needs. How to tell which are her top three? Are there some things in your M she has been asking for, but has stopped asking after a while...not because she is happy with this EN fulfillment, but because she gave up. She found fulfillment of these EN's in the OM.

You be the fountain of EN she drinks from instead of him...

What about calling this guy to tell him I think he's full of [censored]. That he is trying to save his bacon.

Personally I wouldn't get in any battles with the OM. It's just gives her more ammunition to throw back at you. If I were talking to anyone it would be his wife and I would disclose everything I knew.

On a personal note I admire a person who is willing to fight for their marriage even when it doesn't seem like it is worth fighting for at the moment. People give up too quickly and if a marriage can be saved for the sake of the children's future then it's well worth the battle.

You're doing a great job spin. Listen to the sound advice you're getting.

Find some comfort in the fact you have a plan. The WS kind of flies by the seat of their pants, they flail about, the smoke and mirrors are falling apart. They've exercised such a high level of control to maintain the A, when it falls apart in front of them, chaos breaks out.

As been advised, do not contact OM. Do watch for contact on your end.

Be calm.... and come here for venting and advice. If you're faced with a situation, that you don't know how to respond to, again, come here FIRST...someone here can help you.

What about being so open with books etc. Should I be discreet?

When it comes to the book, websites, leave no secrets. Leave things open, you've said she's picked them up from time to time right? Even to contradict, she isn't walking past them.

As to being discreet, you want to recover your M, there's no reason to hide it, and you should be as open as you can with it. It's going to send your message without beating her up with it.

I would be discreet when it comes to your WW looking at these posts ... no reason to allow her to look at your war plan

You know all of you have been great..thanks. Funny last night my wife told me (when she said I should find someone else because she can't do it for me anymore) that I have grown and changed so much that I will make a great husband to someone else!Also told me I was a great father and that everything has been great for the children, I told her I wasn/t interested in others...she was upset that all of this [censored] has helped me and not her.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> here's a response:

"Yes. I feel the same way."

Just catching up...

Spinmaker, you said the courts generally go 50/50 for custody and Dorry you agree.

I called for legal advice through our EAP at work (I'm also in Canada)... he bluntly told me my W would get custody. Unless I can prove that she is not capable of looking after the kids (drug problem or something like that), then 90% go to the wife. Should I check with a different lawyer???

Shaden

spinmaker hang in there. With the OM on the defense with his wife he now has to make some choices. Does he continue his affair and risk greater consequences or back off and try to minimize damages. Most guys will usually back off, which is what I am hoping for. If so it leaves your wife in limo land without any emotional support and eventually she will realize the damage she had done to her family. It is why it is so important for you to try and keep things as civil as possible. Try not to LB even though it might be tough not to. She needs a place to fall back to when she crashes and hopefully if the OM falls out of the picture it won't take long.

Remember to keep your boundaries in place and keep them positive. Be there for your children and makes sure arguements don't happen around them.

My lawyer indicated that the courts of Ontario beleive that it is in the best interest of the children for shared custody - the only hic up is very young children - however as they get older say 10 - 12 the courts will actually ask the opinion of the children. She said that the pendulm is swining back away from women aotomatically being awarded the primary care giver. I know of others within my peer group that have this arrangement - some wives are fighting it because of the difference in payments. My example if I have children 50% then support to wife will be $500. per month anything less say 40% or less equals pyments of $2400. per month

I stay positive / upbeat whenever I'm around her - it drives her crazy. I always smile and make jokes and tell her everything will work out..that I know she doesn't beleive it - but that I beleive it enough for the both of us. She actually might leave in a straight jacket if I keep it up.

It is a very powerful message that you stay in control of your mood

good for you!!!!

The lighthouse, without even reading it.

This will work better than you expect it to.

Right now she sees your stability as a threat to her.

Eventually, after she gets knocked around the ocean long enough, she'll seek the safety and security of the lighthouse.

Great job. Hang in there. Your strength is admirable.

I bought her flowers today on the way home - nothing expensive - just daiseys and sent her an e-mail asking if she viewed her path as a one way journey - no response. Signed it by saying "looking forward to the future"

She probably won't appreciate them. After all, she might be realizing that OM is really going to work on his marriage. But at least you tried. Hang in there. It may be hard to watch all of this.

send me the daiseys, send me the daiseys....they're my favorite.....i NEVER GET THEM!!! lol

Well today the wife has an appointment with her lawyer - she has gathered all the financial stuff to take to the lawyer so that her lawyer can determine assets/liabilities and the split of said assets. She is determined to end this marriage - she is stubborn as a mule.
Last night, while I was reading LB she commented that I spend too much on all the books etc. that I have. She also said it drives her nuts that I go to such extremes when it comes to a goal - she said I was either ON or OFF without any middle ground. I told her that important matters deserved 100% effort - she rolled her eyes.
However, when reading Love Busters - if I read it correctly - my effort to save the marraige is a HUGE LB by itself because I'm trying to "force" my wife to change her mind - I'm not sure how you would persuade someone not to end a marriage when they are so determined.
Anyways spent an hour or so talking w/ wife about her day/job etc. (she just loves to talk about her accomplishments @ work - have been doing this alot for the past few months - because I never had shown any interest before - she has a cool job - but I never thought she wanted to talk to me about it).
My D(5) loved the flowers - wife???

YOu can start with compliments. The old saying, "Flattery will get you everywhere", is so true.

She sounds like a gal that REALLY appreciates appreciation, so start with simple, sincere compliments...about what she is wearing, how she wears her hair, what she cooks, or the way she keeps house, all those little things that you never really noticed...appreciate!

spinmaker, how are you trying to FORCE your WS to change her mind? Is that possible?

I think I would forget the flowers and ILY's. Most women like conversation as much as men like sex. Continue chatting and listening about her job.

I guess I'm trying to force her by my determination to make this work - I read - I tell her that all will work out and that I refuse to accept her conclusion of our marriage. I'm blunt about my message. I can't see any middle ground because there is none its either her way (end it) or mine. Any arguments that I make are countered by my wifes view of our marriage - its like we were married to other people - I may not have been the best - nor she - but my god it wasn't that bad - but as she sees it - that past will repeat itself.

HA

Sometimes when you have a different opinion ... the wifey will say "You are trying to force me to change my mind" ... simply on the grounds that ~you don't agree with her~

theater of the absurd

spinmaker, having your own viewpoints is not forcing her to do anything. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to "force" her into anything. That is not a lovebuster to a hold a different view and to refuse to agree with her dismal view of the marriage. You are doing the right thing. You would be doing the wrong thing to try to agree with a fogged out WS who has temporarily lost her mind.

The best thing is stop arguing with her and stop trying to educate her. Let her know that you are not interested in discussing divorce, only in marital recovery. Don't help her in any way, shape or form in destroying your marriage.

See, once the affair ends and she gets through withdrawal, this will all change, I assure you. Right now her thoughts are under the influence, so to speak, so you shouldn't take anything she says to heart. Just smile sweetly and tell her that you don't do divorce, you only do recovery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep,

This has to be my favorite phrase "theater of the absurd".

It is so descriptive!

Spinmaker, you are recieving the "best of MB". When Pep and ML team up and help someone it is awesome! Blessings to you as you make you way through the muck.

Sue ... Mel and Pep are MEAN

in case you did not know

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

yes we is! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Mean?

I don't think so, however........

You are both STARTLING at times, I must say!

I get a jolt right through the keyboard sometimes!

Here's a question - wife seeing/retaining a lawyer today - any lawyer worth their salt will want the situation to be seperated quickly w/ assets disposed of etc. - Child issues I'm sure the lawyer will want her to have children etc. - What should I expect - W is not a happy camper today and after the visit will probably be an ice queen - I like to be prepared - but never done this before - what can I expect?

spinmaker, when she comes home, come back here and tell us what she says. We will help you weed through it. You will likely need to get your own lawyer to protect your interests.

What she wants is for you to bend over and take it without complaint. She wants you to make it easy for her and be her "friend," "for the sake of the children." That protects her from facing the consequences of her cruelty and when you object or interfere in her cruel strategy, she will accuse you of "making it tough" or "bitter."

It's sort of like the rapist who says "just lay there and enjoy it." DO NOT go along with it, spinmaker. By that I don't mean that you fight with her but that you very firmly, but politely stand your ground and don't agree to be her "friend," [you are her husband and no sane person would have a "friend" who lies and cheats on them] and you don't agree to cooperate in any divorce action. You will only cooperate in marital recovery.

If she wants a divorce or a seperation, SHE will have to do ALL the work. She will have to MOVE. She will have to buy new furniture, etc. Whatever you do, don't make it easy on her, don't help her destroy your family.

p.s. and do not be deluded into thinking that appeasement will get you anywhere. It won't. Your responsiblity is to do what it takes to protect your children and your family. You are the only sane person in this scenario and your children only have you to protect them.

Secondly, women do not respect men they can run over. For many of us, our love is contingent upon the respect we feel. Please just keep this in mind in your dealings with her if you get an urge to allow her to run over you. It will be tempting.

Well she came home from work/lawyers office today - we some how arrived @ the same time - rare occurance - children were shocked but as always they were happy. She had that same look she had when she foot off the plane from Philly (where she met the OM - start of PA/EA) - its almost the same look my children have when I catch them doing somthing that they shouldn't - you know embaressed/shocked and scared all at the same time.
She handed me a letter from lawyer - rather plain really.

Pleased be advised that we have been retained on behalf of your wife, 0000, in relation to your recent seperation. (?)
It is Ms0000 hope that your matrimonial issues can be settled amicably, quickly, and without the need for court intervention. It is in your best interests to seek legal council to represent your interesys, as it is our desire to negotiate a Seperation Agreement. Please advise as to whether you will be retaining a lawyer.
We understand that you currently both remain in the matrimonial home and that this arrangement will remain in place until you have an opportunity to purchase a new home. We are in the process of gathering all necessary financil disclosure in order to determine whether there will ba lump sum equalization payment owing.
Please have council contact us.

Told wife that I have lawyer - have for months - also told her who it was (she seemed shocked - friend (hers) hired her as well - she has a reputation of being a Bull dog and very good & expensive - but cheap if I save my marriage). Also told her I wasn't into divorce just reconsiliation (yes I stole that line from here) also told her that my goal remained the same - she smiled and shook her head and said yes I know. I also gave her DORRY'S post to read. She never got through all of it - she had a girlfriends birthday party to go to - won't be home tonite - not good to drink & drive - yes I encouraged that part. Comments

Just quietly take the letter to your lawyer, spin, and get her advice. Why does the letter say "until you have an opportunity to purchase a new home?" Is she under the impression that you are going anywhere and are looking for a new house?

In the meantime, no lovebusters and no educating her. Just keep the articles to yourself for now. You will be fine.

agree with pennylane ... uh ... I mean Mel

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

In my professional opinion, standard form letter....take it to your lawyer...that's why you hired him/her.

BB

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> kewl

Yes she expects me to move out - as do many of my friends/family as well as hers (you know - if it were role reversal I'd get treated the same way - what is it w/ society anyways? It should be M/F whichever you PA then find your own house w/ just the clothes on your back!! Also getting huge pressure from same groups to just end this thing and get on with it..I can't seem to make them understand my viewpoint either...if I can't convince them do I really stand a chance to convince her?? Have I looked - yes as I drive to work and no I don't detour -same path each day...so little on the market it seems and I beleive it will always be that way if I keep seeing the same 50 houses. I'm going to finish LB book this evening and start After Affair one.

spinmaker, I would suggest informing her that you have no plans to move anywhere. Moving out would be a HUGE HUGE MISTAKE. If anyone should have to move, it should be the one who is having an affair and wants to seperate. NOT YOU. Your moving would only insulate her from the consequences of her bad choices, but it would not be uncommon for her to move another man into your home. This happens all the time.

It also opens you up to charges of abandonment in divorce cases. Let her know that SHE will have to move, without furniture and without kids.

Please disabuse her of this notion NOW.

why oh why do men allow themselves to be manipulated so easily by women? Can someone please answer that for me?

Spin - How long does it take for a divorce to go through in Canada?

Pretty amazing, isn't it? And why are some of us blessed with the ability to manipulate men to do some pretty incredible feats and others (me) only master the ability to get them to take out the trash? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Spin, please listen to your advice. DON'T make ANY efforts to move!! You are handing her the affair on a silver platter if you do. How are you going to feel driving by YOUR home and seeing HIS car in the driveway? Make her face the REALITY of her choices by having to find a new place, new furnishings and new expenses. Save the FAMILY home for you and your kids.

In Canada or at least in Ontario you have to be seperated for one year before a divorce is granted. Seperated does not have to be a seperation of households but rather a seperation of lives..therefore it could be argued by my wife that when she moved to a seperate bedroom in July that was the starting point so one year from then. My lawyer - I know will insist that I stay in the house and that she should be going...if wife chooses to follow this path then I will be forced to play hardball because I will do as instructed by my lawyer - if she speaks to her friend (the one w/ same lawyer - she should realize that this lady takes no prisoners...thats why I hired her

Okay, that is very good. It gives you plenty of time. Can you believe that in some of the states (Idaho for one) you can be divorced in 6 weeks?

ok, good. I would let your W know that you are going nowhere. She really needs to have that bubble burst quite quickly. She is probably thinking you are going to roll over and make this easy for her. She should be disabused of that notion quickly so she can start considering the consequences of her actions.

Its always best to play hardball when it comes to protecting your finances and/or children.

It's hard to beleive that if required to play hardball that anything good will come of it. Anyone I've seen involved in this sort of thing always ends up divorced and bitter - I don't want to go down that road.
BTW in the state of LA where the other man lives w/ his wife a divorce can be granted w/o waiting period if Adultry is involved...funny the things I researched when trying to learn about the enemy!

spinmaker, by playing hardball, we mean protecting yourself and getting the best deal possible for YOU, the victim, rather than rewarding her for destroying your marriage. Right now you have to take every step to protect yourself from her and make sure you don't get hurt financially. See what I mean? I don't mean to imply you should instigate malicious legal actions.

Spinmaker. I am a fellow Canuck. You can be separated a year for a divorce. EVEN IF ONE PERSON DOESN"T WANT IT! THis means, if your WW moves out, the clock starts then. And you will not be able to stop her. A few delays, etc. But after a year, she can file and then it is 90 days til finalization.

The exception is that if you decide you have had enough, your divorce on grounds of adultery will be final in 31 days after the court hearing.

Don't panic, though. But I sure did. Needless to say, I did not share this information with my WH. HE wants to file for separation along with the financials. That he won't sign. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But even if he didn't the clock is ticking. I am doing a bit of RB (Thanks Orchid) coupled with reverse psychology and DEMANDING that he sign the papers IMMEDIATELY. WHich guarantees that he won't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Women can be so devious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You have the greatest team giving you advice on our posts. Mel, B, Pep et al. Listen to them. They will help you survive.. And they know what they are talking about.

As far a Canadian law, I could become a lawyer now. Sigh. Hang in there. DO NOT MOVE OUT! THe Worst thing you could do if you plan to try to save your marriage.

And as far as custody, you have as much chance of getting them as she. Honest. But if you leave, and the kids stay with her, there is little chance of that option.

Good Luck!

Hey FAA,

I was in Victoria earlier this month on a work conference……I really like that town……but I digress,

Spinmaker,

She may very well try to back date the separation…it’s a common tactic. The year separation is required right across this country too. The divorce act is federal legislation and does not vary from province to province in that regard.

I know someone suggested journaling what occurs. I agree especially when it comes to care for the children. Get one of those date books from Staples; the ones with one page per day. Document what she does that involves the children and how her actions are inconsistent with appropriate parenting. Document what you do and how you are gearing your life to being a half time (at least) parent. Continue to try and save the marriage, but prepare for the worst. You may have to give this evidence in court. Notes made at the time in your handwriting will have far more credibility than her memory off the top of her head. It will have even further credibility if all is documented…both positive and negative.

I changed my career path from what was an extremely exciting job with shifts, to a relatively mundane one that had me working days. This was done so I could have my children half time and I get them every weekend. I need no childcare when they are with me as I work 4 -10 hour shifts a week. These actions speak volumes to a court if it went that way. My STBXWW thinks we’ll go to a week on/a week off when my daughter is in school. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Why would I want to give up my kids on the weekends? My point is....do what you must to accommodate a lifestyle that may be thrust upon you.

Also…..beware of your finances right now. Close any joint line of credit you may have. My WW took 5K from ours to put a deposit on a house. She also stole family money via the credit cards. Cancel them…get your own…it only takes a day. Any joint accounts should be liquidated and she can get half. You can do this without making it an LB. Simply tell her you need to protect the family assets and yourself from being hurt financially on top of the emotional anguish you have to endure as a result of her actions.

Stay in the house. Your friends and family are merely parroting the tradition that the man should leave the house and mom stay with the kids. She of course is giving them the same crap my WW did about this having nothing to do with her bumping uglies with another man.

I hear what you are saying regarding “playing hardball”, but she needs to know you will not simply roll up your sleeping bag and ride into the sunset because of her self-entitled, family destroying, mid-life tantrum. That does not mean going to court over the Tupperware, just that you will get what you are entitled to. I took advantage of my WW”S residual guilt and did get a separation agreement in place that was far more generous to me than the courts would have granted.

Upon signing that document I’ve spoken to her less than 3 minutes in total in the last 14 mos. That’s plan B…..if your WW leaves the home I suggest that is the most appropriate time to implement that. It’s still premature, but plan for the worst….hope for the best.

Well, my, my, the Canucks are coming out of the woodwork.

Yup...darn near half the population of this country is on this thread. There's a line-up for both of the Canadian computers.

Bwaahahahah - Binder, you are too funny!!! When spin was first talking about Canada, I knew there were some folks here, but didn't realize how many. Nothing like supporting a fellow countryman.

Listen to Binder..protect yourself! Listen to your lawyer.

What most people do not understand is that many states will grant you a divorce IF you have been separated, legally or not, for a year. It is NOT necessary though. I was divorced less than 70 days after I was served.

The other thing is the house. You need to be prepared for her to request that you be removed from the home because it is not in the best interest of the children.

Look...I arrived home from work to 5 police cars in my driveway. My first thought "Oh my God an accident"...until a friend, who is a deputy, said...SMOMY, are you having marital issues?? My response was " I am now"...I was served an order of protection, she was grated temp. custody (which in NY might as well be perm), and I had a court date in a week....I had to get my stuff and leave...in 20 minutes...

never, ever trust them....now when they're hellbent on wrecking it all...

My lawyer tells me I can't be kicked out of my house because my name is on the deed - as well as hers - I have as much right to be here as her....I find it hard to beleive that she would trump up anything...anyone who knows me would realize that it is not possable. Our joint credit card is cancelled and I had her send a letter to remove me - my own does not have her on it - I set up my own account etc and we've called bank to have LC split the only joint things now are van lease and house. I will prevail.
BTW - I have come to beleive it must be the flouride that they put in the water here in Canada that effects the Brain cells of the female it hardens the cells and distorts the history section.

Hey, Binder. (waving) The Dork is the one in Victoria. I am on the Mainland. Bought a TH here

Spinmaker. I understand that this is the hardest fight of your life. And it is even harder to fight for your marriage in this sitch. Check my name. I do understand.

The things I have learned this past year are lessons I would not wish on my worst enemy. Hey! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> My worst enemy is my WH! You will NOT recognize anything that your WW does. If she is a good mother, she can and most probably will, be neglectful. If she was honest, she will become a consistent liar.

You will be humiliated and hurt and embarassed by her behaviour. Guaranteed.

When Mel and Pep, and Believer and Weaver and FF, (Hi Guys) tell you to play hardball now, they know what they are talking about. Work for the best but prepare for the worst.

That is the biggest lesson that I learned.

Well that is not strictly the truth. What the BIGGEST truth I learned was that WS are NEVER unique. There really is a WS handbook running through their heads. Check out Dorkisms in the search or there is another newer one happening.

Usually the BS is in shock and wants to be "fair" as well. After all, this WS is the person they most trusted and loved in the world, right? WRONG! THis is a WS not your partener. NEVER confuse the twon of them. TOTALLY different beasts!

Every single WS some more, and some less, but ALWAYS does the most hurtful selfish and cruel things imaginable. Not only to the BS but to the family and friends. And 99% of the time, the BS is caught off guard.

I read here and I see the "Oh my WS would never do that!" I did it too. But short of the physical abuse, everything else was like a script that they talk about at MB.

YOU CANNOT TRUST THEM. As they say: If they open their mouth, it is a lie. If they say they need time away to think about their M but need to get away. ASSUME they are planning to spend time in the arms of OP. Unless you have proof that you have gained through your own resources.

NEVER help them do anything to speed up the process. NEVER give up your house. Would you like to have OM in your house and bed? I twill happen. DO you want your kids exposed to this OP? It will happen unless you prepare now.

NEVER give up your kids. I think of WH as insane.I pay no attention to what he says. (Well I try not to) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I make ALL the decisions when it comes to things that affect me. WS CANNOT BE TRUSTED.

Now that being said, play your cards close to your chest. And fight like he!!. For your family and for your M.

lol There seems to be a similar disease in the US that effects the brains of wayward spouses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Fightingalone-again.

Well said.

Gimble

Good job, fighting-alone! Those are such important points.

"I find it hard to beleive that she would trump up anything...anyone who knows me would realize that it is not possible"

Remember the Police don't know you and the judge sure the heck doesn't know you!! And they are the ones that count!!

"I find it hard to beleive that she would trump up anything...anyone who knows me would realize that it is not possible"

I am sure you never thought she would be having sex with another man and ****** bent on destroying your family either.

About the lies...do they ever stop? Will they? What triggers the WS to decide to STOP lieing. Every hunch that I have had has turned out to be true and when confronted..more lies or the "you are invading my privacy" when asked about somthing she skirts the issue and addresses a secoundary issue or brings up a negative about me/relationship - I swear it's like the first part of the conversation she had me on mute - its like she didn't even hear it! I just don't get it. Sure I've lied in the past to cover my butt...however this is crazy...when we have a conversation she actually takes minutes to respond and I know it is because she is trying to remember what she said in the past or to put a different spin - this is not an unconcious act it's delibrate. What about you folks who were WW - can you explain?

spinmaker, an affair is an addiction. The WS knows that it is wrong, but they feel like they cannot stop themselves. Therefore, they must make up a whole web of lies and rationalizations to justify their wrongdoing. They must make someone other than themselves the BAD GUY in order to live with themselves. Sometimes they even believe their own bs! However, once the addiction of the affair has worn off, they stop lying and come back to sanity.

I liken it to dealing with an alcoholic. They lie and lie to justify their drinking. It is the same with a WS.

If and when the come back to sanity...will they address the issues or will they continue down the path they are on...I mean the lies haven't been little white ones...she has lied to everyone me/family friends etc - if she does an about face - it will be very difficult to save face or even face many of the people - the easy road for her will be to continue to divorce therefore not have to deal with it.

BTW was informed today by the WW that her father is going to front the $$'s to buy me out - this is the same guy who has been telling me in private to keep up the good fight - I haven't spoke to him in a while but he supported our marriage just a few months ago...he said he had to support his daughter because she is her daughter but that she wouldn't listen to his advice - that it was I who had to save the marriage - he felt if he got involved further then it would mess things up. Well fronting the dough doesn't sound like support of her marriage and his grand children.

Well, she will have to give up ALOT of good friends in order to avoid the consequences of her lies. And she may well choose that. But hopefully, she will come to her senses before that happens. We have many WS's on this forum who came to their senses and feel great remorse for their actions. So, it is very possible. Sanity returns when the affair ends, that is why we are so ****** bent on busting up the affair around here; we know it is your best hope. Removing the affair has the effect of removing alcohol frm the alcholic. With that removal, sanity is possible.

Any word from the OMW? Hopefully you are staying in touch to ensure contact doesn't resume?

I haven't spoke to OMW since last time I mentioned it here - I figured she would have called me by now...also wife not acting any different (?) maybe she doesn't feel all is lost with OM (?). If she doesn't call I'll call her bu Monday.
Overheard wife speaking to the D's teacher on the phone today (she wants to leave her husband as well - I had given her a couple of my books (5 LL and HN/HN)). My WW was laughing w/ teacher that we(?) had enough resources here to save the world - I would agree w/ "we" if she actually read somthing. I'm glad that she finds this funny.

It would be a good idea to tell the OMW that your W now wants a D. Y'all can compare notes.

Do you have any way of telling if W is still in touch with OM? Does the OMW monitor his contact?

I've been reading after the affair and it states that after an affair ends then withdrawl sets in - however I have not seen any indication from my WW that she is in withdrawl there has been no change in her what so ever!?

It could either mean the affair is not over or that she has hopes that it will resume. That is why it is good to keep up the pressure by staying in contact with the OMW.

If you askme, like ML said, it might not be a bad idea to let the OMW know your wife is looking for a divorce. It might give her a clue about the possible intents of her husband. At least then she would know how serious your wife was when it came to the affair.

Spin,

""BTW was informed today by the WW that her father is going to front the $$'s to buy me out""

Remember your post about the lies?? I bet a dollar to a doughnut this is another one. Please verify w/FIL and at the same time tell him this is the worst thing he could do for your M and his grandchildren.

k

Today I have an appointment with my lawyer. I dread this - but I'll go. WW and I got into it last night when I told her that if divorce was her goal that she better not look to me for help. She said that I'm forcing her to proceed this way because I'm not being cooperative and that she has to go the legal route because she needs to TAKE because I won't give. She said that if my goal was to win her back then I must accept that I need to let her go! She says she needs her freedom and space and that I can't/won't give it to her - therefore she is taking it. She wants to keep the children as well with me having visitation and every other weekend. Her father is giving her the money and she thinks it is wrong for me to be upset that after 15 years together he is willing to cut a check (especially since he doesn't agree with divorce) she thinks its best for the children.

she's full of nonsense isn't she

Yes, but I've got no choice - she is dragging me by the short and curlies and no matter how hard I resist she pulls harder! Is there no magic bullet?

Can you make sure your FIL realizes what he is giving her the $$ for? The REAL reason?

L.

Are you refering to OM? I have told him...but I think he chooses to beleive his daughter that the OM has not been part of her decision..that her disatifaction/unhappyness has been a long time coming and that she is no acting on it..so her and the children can have a better life! He is giving her the money so that she and the children can stay in the house without disruption in their lives..so he beleives he is doing it in the best interest of his grand children..the problems are 2 - 1 she is counting on getting hugh support payments that won't happen and 2 - she is disputing the value of the house (she thinks the realtors are valueing the home too high and she wants it to be lower - I guess so she doesn't have to pay out too much.

Just got back from lawyer's - she told me not to move out and continue life as normal as possible - spend time w/ children etc. She told me she plans to take this slow - I approve obviously because I feel the more time w/ her the better. Now I need a plan!! Suggestions?

Enlighten your FIL ASAP. Make sure he realizes she is now using him to enable her A. If he still wants to dish out the $$, then you both know he is an enabler. Otherwwise, offer to work out a deal so that the children have a home with the faithful parent. It w/b hard if his daughter is the one who will be homeless but she can always stay with him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Also, let FIL know the handout is just the beginning. One thing with the WS' is that the calculator in their brain is broken and usually expect all to give them a handout. After all, the A is not their fault. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hey Spin,

How r u doing?!??!?

L.

I haven't posted for a couple of days because truth be told - I feel like I'm swimming w/ an anchor tied to my waist. My WW's determination to end our marriage is prceeding w/ Full Steam. She has gotten appraisals on the home for the split of assets- she has arranged to get $ to pay me out. She is as cold and distant as ever. She is living and acting as if I'm not even in her life. I don't know if her A is still going or if she is planning to continue it after I'm gone or if she is just getting ready for the next person. I don't know if it's a MLC as well or what - she is/has spent big $ on all new clothes/lingerie, she is arranging surgery to fix up ailments - she is considering Plastic Surgery (Re. stretch marks from child birth). She has thrown herself heavely into work and dances around the house listening to all new music - going to concerts w/ single GF from work - dressed to the nines I might add. It all seems so hopeless - I think it might be best to just cry uncle and move on.

spin, believe me, this is not hopeless. We have seen far worse than this come back from the dead. What did your attorney say? Have you protected your finances from her?

My lawyer says to stay put for now - until a settlement is negotiated. She beleives that as long as we each play ball that it won't take long since my wifes desire to end the marriage is so strong! Joint credit cards have been cancelled etc just the house/line of credit left but no brainer - lots of equity in house to cover etc. Hard to beleive that this can come back from the dead when her desire is to cremate the remains!! I have tried to be an upstanding citizen threw out this saga (not an angel - by any stretch of the imagination) but she has tipped the playing field onto its side - hard to right it with support from one side only.

spin, why don't you call Steve Harley and let him assess your situation? He is damn good and could give you a plan. He is worth every penny.

I have an appointment today..I hope he can help -- I'm feeling like I tried everything!

good deal! I think you will get alot out of it.

As one person said, all you can do is all you can do. You just keep trying and don't give up until you know it's hopeless. There are many praying for you and many who have you in their thoughts. Hang in there!

I spoke w/ Steve Harley the other day..it was encouraging..however the WW is leaving for Washington DC tomorrow for a conference that i know the OM will be at..she is doing all the same things she did before her last trip away (primping and preening - excited and happy) I know - in my gut - that they intend to be together. As long as OM is in -I'm out. I thought of hiring a PI to gather info for OMW but that may be too little too late. I haven't been sleeping and can't consintrate on anything...it's killing me!!

Spinmaker - was the OM able to convince his W you were lying? I'm amazed she wouldn't mind them being at a conference together.

I agree with everyone else, don't you dare move out. She is the one stepping outside the M, she should move. Keep documentation of what is going on, in case it helps you at a later day. Like, document this trip that MM is also going on.

I feel for you, your wife is being cruel. How would she feel to be on the receiving end of such treatment?

I wish you the best of luck. Try to get out and do something this weekend. I know we women pamper ourselves to get stress relief. Is there anything you could do? I can't recall, it seems like you have children. Is there something fun you could take them to do? You have to show your W this isn't going to stop you from living.

OM convinced his wife that he was being pursued against his will that he has no intention of a relationship - victim so to speak. However I'm convinced (without hard evidence) that this renedevous is mutual. How do I stop it! I can't stop my wife