I have been married for 9 years. We have 3 children, 6, 4 and 2. I have neglected my wife for 3 years because of my stupid hobby. I am a programmer, and I program after work until I go to bed. I thought everything was fine, except for the occasional requests from WS to hold her or spend time with her. I thought she was being needy and I was so selfish that I did not take the time to meet her needs.

It was 1/19/2006 when she informed me that she had sex with another man. The man is her customer and calls and text messages her every day still. I am going to try to implement Plan A, but she says that she still wants to be friends with him / have him as her customer. She cuts hair.

I truly want to meet all of her emotional needs, but she is telling me that she doesn't want me to be different, she thinks it is not genuinely me, if I change to meet her needs.

I want to change, but I can't stand the pain of letting her 'work it out' in her mind. I love my family so much, and I just want to be back to how things were, except I don't want to neglect her anymore.

I feel hopeless, and I just want to know if it's worth all this pain to try and work it all out. I do feel that it's worth it for my children. I don't want them to suffer.

I will try to post a timeline of events later.

N, welcome to MB. NC needs to be in place which means no "friendship" and she cannot keep him as a client. You changing in part of plan A. You identify the issues that are your part of the problems in the M such as you mentioned above and you go about changing those issues. Get the book Surviving An Affair and read it. You may also want to get the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. That would be a good read for your WW.

Guess what?

You don't need anyone's permission to become a better more attentive husband. Just do it.

I know I don't need her permission. Hopefully tonight we can talk some more. I will let you guys know what progress, if any, I make.

Hi Neglector,
All the b/s have been in your shoes at one time or another.

First of all, take a big breath and relax.

It will take a time for all this to sink in and for reality to finally become clear.

Your case is not hopeless.

Read up on Plan A and Plan B which is on the MB website.

There you will find very useful information about what to expect and what to do to change things.

Don't beat yourself up too much. While b/s do contribute to the unhappiness that preceded the affair, you are by no means, responsible for your wife making that selfish decision to rut like a Pig, (as Melody says)and break your heart and marriage vows.

This was your w/s choice, not yours.

You will find that most ws follow the same adulter's script.

They think their love is unique and unusual, when in fact, it is very ordinary, and misleading.

You have a tool to recover your marriage if you choose. You have found MB website and the advice of countless former b/s and w/s that have gone on to either recover their marriage or found peace in moving on without their spouse.

Keep on posting,

K.D.'s Heartbreak

Last night was tough. WW says she does not love me and that she is in love with OM. She is cutting his hair today and has had lunch with him on Monday and Tuesday. I can't stand the fact that she is still betraying me. She said that she wants me to leave and that she wants custody of the kids. We live next door to her parents so she feels that it's the right thing to do, to let me go.

I tried to hold her and understand the pain she is going through. She was very cold to me. She won't say I love you, she won't hug me, she won't even let me try to talk with her.

I am hopeless at the moment. She says that she knows the this man can't meet all of the needs that I provide, yet she almost walked out the door to him last night. I backed off so she would stay and I had to sleep in my DS' room. I snuck back into bed around 5:30 AM and held her and told her how much I want this to work.

She says I am being obsessive and she needs space. I am afraid that if I back off, she will try to go back to him because I can't meet her EN.

I no longer will be the neglector.

I am not too knowledgeable about MB but I do know the following:
You do not leave the house. If this ends in divorce and you have left the house the chances are 90% that your WW will have primary custody and keep the house.
Expose the affair. Have you talked to her parents? Is the OM married? If so tell his wife.
Do this NOW. Don’t give any warning.

Don't be desperate.
Don't take the blame.
Don't let a wayward spouse kick you out of your own house (edit) - OR YOUR OWN BED.

If you still want her in your life, then think of her as someone you want to date. Most women don't go for men who glom onto them. They go for men who charm them and then walk away.

GC

Don't leave the the house. I did, then had to make a real stand to get back in two weeks later in a huge showstopper of an arguement.

My WW used almost exactly the same words as you have put in. Also used "The children will be happy if I'm happy". And other WW lines that I'm seeing all over MB. There is nothing unique or 'soul mate'ish about their love. But they won't hear that. Familiarise yourself with Fog speak and prepare to be blasted by some of the most hateful things you're ever likely to hear from someone who used to proclaim their love for you. I got used to thinking to myself "She's not my wife...She's not my wife' as a mantra when FWW was re-writing our history.

This is an horrific time and experience. The consistent message has to be expose without warning and bust the affair and Plan A, as long as you can. Take a look at yourself. Do what you need to do to improve yourself. Protect your children at all costs. Don't be a doormat.

If it's any consolation, my FWW and myself are now in a much happier place, six months on. It's still day by day but it's a day by day I now enjoy. Our old marriage is dead. Killed by my neglect and her subsequent EA. Our new marriage is much better. But it was a nightmare ride. And there is still a long way to go.

The folks here at MB helped me loads, listen to them.

I also found keeping a journal very useful. WW has never seen it but I look at it sometimes.

I wish you well. Take care of yourself and any kids.

OM is not married and 24
BS (me) is 27
WW is 27
DS is 6 (turning 7 in July)
DS is 4 (turning 5 in August)
DD is 1 (turning 2 in march)

I think I have the support of her Mother, she wants us to stay together for the kids, and she knows I love WW with all of my heart and soul.

After I posted, WW called me. She wrote a NC letter to OM, but won't let me read it. She says I don't need to see what she told him.

She did tell me "you know I love you" while I was on the phone. I explained to her that if she is feeling intense withdrawal symptoms from OM to call me so we can talk about it. She said she would not cut his hair and would make an effort to not contact him again. Deleted his number from her cell phone as well.

I feel hope, but I know that she may vacillate towards OM. I need to stay strong, and I told her that my love for her would get us both through this.

I have hope.

Good! One of the points of Plan A is to work on YOU, to get you to be the better / safer choice than the OP.

Buy a nice blank notebook. Start writing in it. Write in it each day, Your feelings, if you spoke to your W, what you spoke about. What you are doing to try and improve things. The responce of the W.

Entry #1.

Today if January 25th 2006.

Today is the day that I have decided to reinvent myself to be best possible man, husband, and father that I can be.

I will do this for myself, my wife, and my children. I will NOT fail.


If you keep this up you will start to see patterns of what seems to work and what doesn't. It can also be used to protect yourself if the W starts to make up stories about you.



FOG BABBLE! This is typical WW speak. They say this to justify the unjustifyable. Give this statement all the consideration it is due: NONE.

You have already discovered what the WW words are worth. Virturaly nothing! All WS's lie and some do this with such venom that you can barely recognize them. Watch her actions, not her words, to see if she really does anything to end the affair.



Don't leave. It will make it much more difficult to reconsile / Plan A her.

It would also give her the abilty to have the OM "over" and help enable the affair! Don't give in! If you do so she will attempt to legitimize this to her folks.

It would also be a disasterous move for you legally. If she pulls the big "D" on you she will use your "abandonment" of the family home as a reason to grant her primary custody.



FOG BABBLE! This is a very typical WW action. They do this to justify the unjustifyable (to themselves). WW knows what she is doing isn't right.



This is complete, unadulterated FOG BABBLE! All WS's say this. This is very typical of all WS's. It's straight from the WS's handbook.



Don't give up hope. This is far from over. You have come to a place where a lot of help / advise is available!

The first point of order is to KILL the affair. Go after the affair with everything you've got. As long as the affair is active it will not matter what you do to win her back! It will not work until the affair is over!

Affairs thrive in secrecy. EXPOSE the affair to EVERYONE you can. EXPOSURE is your best weapon for breaking up an affair. When you expose, expose to everyone at once. This will give you the maximum effect of the exposure. DO NOT expose to this group, then that group. This will give the WW time to spin / minimize the effect of the exposure. DO NOT give any indication that you are about to expose. The WW / OM will use this time to "spin" you as an obcessive / abusive / lying H.

Your WW will not be mad if you do this. She will be FURIOUS! Be prepared for that! She will likely spew venom at you that didn't even suspect she possessed. It doesn't matter. Your marriage can survive you WW anger. It CAN NOT survive an ongoing affair!

Keep Posting and let us know how things are going. We can help you through this.

Stay Strong!

Too late, I already told her I would expose it if she doesn't end it herself. Should I give her time to kill it on her own? She is honest with me and I trust her to tell me if she has contact with him. So far, she has told me everything.

former-neglector, your story and feelings are a mirror of mine.

However, I think you need to see the NC letter and follow the advice mentioned about exposure. My W's first promise of NC (w/o letter) proved to be a lie. NC letter went out on 1/23 and I read it before it was sent.

Hang in there brother.

The fact that she won't let you see this letter is problem. I doubt she is really breaking it off, but I may be wrong. She is probably instead just hiding her actions more effectively.

Don't threaten exposure again, you just do it. When you threaten it, you become manipulative and they feel blackmailed.

I too am a software engineer. This means you should have no trouble setting up some of the monitoring techniques to see if she's contacting him. If she uses a computer, install a keylogger on it. If she uses email accounts, see if you can get into them (the keylogger with give you the passwords). Also, if she uses a cell phone, most providers have a website where you can view call history. Find out his number and see how often she is calling him.

I hate to sound negative, but the odds are that she is not ending the affair, but instead taking it further underground. Setup these monitoring points and see what happens. If you find that they are still in contact, expose. Dont threaten exposure, just do it. Tell her parents, your parents, maybe even her boss.

Affairs are fantasies that thrive on secrecy. When you expose the affair, the fantasy comes to an abrupt halt. She'll be flaming pissed at you, but that too will pass.

Good luck.

This is not negotiable. In your place I would say "Show me the letter or pack your bags." You're a grownup, and you can say what you do and do not need.

See, she wants to say nice things to him. Maybe she wrote things like, "I'll live the rest of my days wishing I'd known you first." She still wants to have a romantic life that does not involve just you. She's erected a wall that keeps you out, and for your M to survive, that wall needs to be knocked down.

GC

I just had an epiphany about how you may try to handle this:

My idea:

If she won't show you the letter then you tell her you are going to go write your own No Contact letter to OM yourself.

You will not let her read your letter and he certainly will not be sharing it with her if he knows what's good for him.

Then walk away and begin to write a letter or commit to working on it later. Write what you want to say...fold it up put it in an envelope with a stamp and give WW one last chance to show you that letter. Then indicate you are driving to a post office box and depositing it...she has about 10 minutes to change her mind and call you on your cell. etc.

You can alter this of course as email may be more effective. WW knows she can preempt any snail mail you send by calling OM after you mail it and warning him...but email...not so easy.

Also, if you have not exposed you could consider filling out 10 envelopes with the names of OM, OM's family, WW's family, the church and some mutual friends.

She will likley either show you that letter or agree to send a proper one together. Her choice...you don't care how it gets done just that it gets done.

You must be careful not to do this in anger, spite or vindictiveness. It's merely a matter of fairness...she gets a secret No Contact letter than so do you.

Mr. Wondering

Well the greatest effect will have been neutralized, but it still remains a potent weapon.

Since WW already knows that you could expose give her the benefit of the doubt and let her try.

More importantly, be preparred to follow through. If you find evidence of continued contact you will have to expose. If you do not, WW will realize that she can do what she wants without consequence. Once she knows this she will have no reason to break off the affair as there will be no consequences. You do NOT want that to happen.

To quote Mulan: Remember that your pain means nothing to a WS.

It is an important quote that you will need to remember.



[color:"red"] RED FLAG WARNING!!! [/color] I vehemitly disagree. In order for YOU to get over this she will need to be very open in what she does. She will need to answer some very painful questions from you about the A. This "hiding" of the letter will do NOTHING to rebuild the trust that she has abused. I personnly doubt that she has written it or if she has: has any intenion of sending it. For it to be a "real" no contact letter she should give it to you for approval and mailing. I suspect that this is just "lip service" to get you to back down for awhile.



All of these are good signs. But remember to watch her actions to make sure that they follow up the words.



I'm glad that you're feeling more hopefull. We call the vacillating "fence sitting". Be prepared for a lot of that.

You will find that you have good day were everything is progressing well. You will have days when nothing is going well and you feel like giving up. We call this the "roller coaster". Sit down, Strap in, and Hang On!

We'll help you get through this.

Stay Strong!

My WW's first two NC attempts failed. But eventually things seem to have taken a turn for the better. It can happen for you too, but it may take quite awhile. Hang in there, remember she's worth it, don't give up.

A page above you said 'back to the way things were, ...'. IMHO that's wrong. I think you should close the chapter on the old M, and work to build a new much better M with your wife. Make that clear to your WW. The old one wasn't a M. It didn't work for each of you, so it wasn't a M. But you can convince her that you ARE capable of building a terrific new marriage.

Words won't do it, you can only do that with action. Take concrete steps to show her what you want the new better M to be like.

I took your advice, and my WW has been much more receptive today when I called and text messaged her. She actually apologized for the things she told me last night and she expressed that she knew that she hurt me.

I'm taking it one day at a time and avoiding all LB's even though she has been LB'ing. With the books and this site, I really believe we can work this out.

Still hopeful!

Well, it turns out she did cut his hair yesterday. This hurts because she won't make him stop coming to the barber shop to get his hair cut. She doesn't work at the shope Thursday through Sunday. I tried to convince her to tell him to only come to the shop on her days off. She insists that he has been trying to find a good barber for a long time.

She says that she has done a lot to cut off contact, but if they see each other once a week, I am not sure we can begin the recovery process.

On another note, she was much more receptive to me by spending time with me and we slept in our bedroom with no fighting. I think I avoided all LB's, but I may have had a selfish demand by asking for SF. She said no, and I accepted the answer, but I did ask several more times. She said no, and I stopped pursuing SF for the time being.

Any Advice?

Yeah, don't ask for sex! Your desperation is practically tattooed on your forehead.

I predict your marriage will fail if they stay in contact. And it will take lots of time, and it will hurrrrrrrrt, much more than anything that's happened so far.

GC

Too late, I already told her I would expose it if she doesn't end it herself. Should I give her time to kill it on her own? She is honest with me and I trust her to tell me if she has contact with him. So far, she has told me everything.

--------------------


Remember, former spouses that are now ws cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

Remember they are addicted, just like a drug addict, they will convincinly lie to cover up their desperate need to fulfeel their addiction to the o/m.

No longer can you take your ws word. Until they have established nc and have gone through the withdrawal and have reached the other side, their word cannot be trusted. Even then, b/s have the right to reassure themselves by following up on what the ws says, does, etc.

Sincerely,
K.D.'s Heartbreak

I will not ask for SF any more. As much as it hurts to do this, I will have to try to spy on her to make sure that NC is being done. I will let her know that I will not allow her to have contact with OM, and will not accept a love triangle as a relationship.

Should I put it this way? If I cheated on you and insisted that the OW's PC had to be cleaned once a week, and that she had been trying to find a good PC Technician, that it would be alright to see her once a week to clean it for her? There's lots of Techs and I can't be the only one, likewise there's lots of barbers and he can find another one.

It's like she wants to hold on to the friendship, but how can I convince her to stop it? She also insists that she can't stop him from coming into the shop. If I knew what he looked like, I would camp out the shop and confront him to find a different barber shop.

Gah, Just when I thought things were starting to get better, it seems like I take two steps forward and three steps backwards.

Advice?

FN, I have to warn you, I don't get asked for advice a lot. But I think mine is sound.


OK


Too complicated. WS don't like puzzles. To "he's been looking for a long time for a barber", I'd have said, "Yeah, it's hard finding a good barber. I hope that works out for him." See, you aren't arguing about it. If she wants to argue, you say, "Your insistence on keeping him as a client hurts me," and you're done. You don't owe an explanation. She has no standing.

More general tip: don't argue with a WS. Don't use logic. It won't work. You need to think in a new way about these issues. You can't reason your way through them. You can't appeal to her sense of fair play.

One one front, you want to make yourself attractive. That means figuring out what she needs from you, emotionally, and meeting those needs when you have the opportunity.

On the other front, you absolutely have to place boundaries and say, "This is my boundary, if you violate it there will be consequences."

"If this man continues to be your client, that does not work for me and you'll have to go."

I know that might seem scary, but it does two things. It protects you from the horrors you'll experience if this affair continues, and it makes you very attractive, probably. You're taking a stand. You're saying, "I can live without you, and I will if I have to, because I'm not going to kiss your butt and let you treat me like second prize."

Do the thing you know you should do, but are afraid to do.

GC

Oh, another thing...

If she asks for SF, do it.

But don't be a clinger.

Got it?

GC

Got it. I think I understand your points.

1. Give her enough space so I don't seem to be needy and desperate.

2. Be there so she feels safe in our relationship. And fullfill EN's whenever I can.

3. Avoid all LB's.

4. Stand firm on my insistence to cut off all contact with O/M at any price.

It's not going to be easy, but it doesn't look too hard at all.

Thanks for your words, they truly do help.

You're not "giving her space". You're just being cool. When she gets mopey and cold, she's bummed out about HIM. You can't do much for her during these times, except keep a wide berth. When she reaches out to you, be there, and be ready. When she cools to you again, back away. Get her a cup of tea and go fix the roof or something.

If being on the computer could be a reminder of the problems between you, DO NOT run to the computer when she cools to you.

When a WS says "give me space" it always, always means "I need to get away from you so I can feel less crappy about my cheating and maybe do a little more of it." ALWAYS.

GC

What do you mean by cools to you again?

If she has strong feelings for OM, she's going to suffer from her separation from him. During those times, she's likely to turn mopey, surly, and lazy, and she won't like you twittering around her.

That withdrawal doesn't feel good. Seeing him and giving him a haircut probably makes her feel better. And she'll be back to the start. Think of her as a heroin addict who needs to kick.

By the way, this guy must be a real dandy! He gets his haircut once a week?

GC

Yes, every Wednesday from what I have learned. I gather from this bit of info that Physical Attraction is one of her EN's. I am an attractive man, but lately my grooming has been so-so. I have shaved and presented myself with fine clothing and showing her that I too am interested in being attractive for her.

FN,
You've been given some great advise by people here on MB forum. Know why thier advise is soo good? Because the've been there, done that. Many of us here have already walked in your shoes and learned everything the hard way. Don't repeat out mistakes, but, rather, use the wisdom on this board to reconsile your M the right way.
Let's recap some things so you don't blunder this effort:
1.) Exposure; affairs only survive in secrecy and darkness. If they are exposed to the light of day, to everyone who could possible have an influence on your WW, it will NOT survive. Dr H advocates everything short of taking a billboard out in the center of town, to expose the A. So, make a list of all those that you should expose to. They would include your WW's family, friends, coworkers, and the management at the shop your WW works at. It needs to be done to all at one time. This is so your WW and OM cannot spin you as some crazy jeolous H who is making up horribe accusations that are not true. Your WW and OM will do this to protect themselves and the secrecy of their A. Trust me, we've seen it humderds of times. If you allow them to do this, they will have taken away the biggest weapon in your arsenal to bust this A; exposure! BTW, if possible, expose to OM's family as well. Simply tell all that yor WW is involved in an A and you would respectfully ask all that you would like them to influence WW any way they could to end the A, as you are trying your very hardest to heal your M.
2.) NO CONTACT LETTER: I will simply quote Dr. Harley and you will clearly see the reason for absolutely NC.

I think that pretty much says it all, don't you think?
Keep in mind that you and your WW must write the NC letter or email together and YOU must be the one to deliver it, to be truly sure it was delivered in the first place.
I will quote the good Dr. again;

Ok, so we are clear about this right? What you WW is doing with respect to NC is not acceptable by you.
I don't want to make this any longer right now, b/c I'm sure you are still in shock and suffering PTSD.
Keep posting,
All will walk you through this if, saving your M is your goal.
All Blessings,
Jerry

When you state your boundary, do it once, firmly. Don't harp on it, don't repeat, don't yell. Be calm. And be firm about what you cannot accept. Don't give the 'or else' bit, and don't hint at a 'or else'. Just state your boundary.

Make yourself the more attractive alternative, meet her needs. Really focus on her. Not on yourself or your needs (x/c for your boundaries). Focus on her needs and what you can do to meet them. Then go back and do it again. Focus on her and on her needs. Demonstrate by actions that you care about her and are successfully meeting her needs. If you can do that, it increases the chances that the OM will soon become unimportant to her.

You can do this! But it's work. She's given you a wake-up call, and you need to meet the call.

Okay, progress?

My WW told me that she told one of our closest mutual friends that she had an affair. She is exposing the affair on her own. This is weird to me, but it seems like maybe she's also critically looking at herself in this situation.

We were eating lunch with my DS (Age 6) so I didn't talk any R stuff with her, but she told me this on her own.

I am upbeat, and I realize this may change, but I will use this energy to get me through today.

I will state my boundary. But I first wanted to get the book Surviving an Affair and have her read the Chapter How an affair should end. I know she wants to do the right thing, but the fog is trying to keep the O/M in the loop, and if she reads this, it may open her eyes to what I have been trying to tell her.

On D-Day I exposed the A to my Mother, Step Father, Brother and Sister. It's also been exposed to her Mother, Father and Grand Father. (Her grandmother passed away last year). She exposed it to our friend on her own.

Day is getting better.

Sounds okay. You have to be adamant (and yeah, definitely without getting angry or arguing) about the no more contact of any kind at all.

Any contact has to be unacceptable. Non-negotiable. She can't be friends with him. No way. If she stays friends with him, it's almost guaranteed that this affair will continue.

GC

If she will read the book it's a real gift. Based on what I've read here, it sounds as if many wayward spouses won't, and some resent being asked to read that kind of thing.

Also I've read somewhere that the book 'After the Affair' is written more from the wayward's point of view, and might find a spot in your WS heart as well.

I'm with graycloud, if she doesn't stop all contact, it's pretty much for sure the A will continue. Probably he comes in weekly mainly to see her; that should stop. Maybe she would give him a bad haircut to keep him from coming back?!

Okay, way good progress, and two possible set backs.

We went to our mutual friends house and talked about our situation. Everyone agreed that no contact is to be allowed with her and O/M. She agreed. We got along great, and no LB's were committed on my part. The couple that we talked to are good christian people with good morals. We all agreed that had God been in our lives and I had been there more for her, that the likelyhood of the affair happening would have been greatly diminished. I refused to take responsibility for her decision to cheat on me, though.

When we got home, we had good SF and went to sleep. When it was time to wake up, she wanted me to hold her for a couple of more minutes. This made me and her feel great. I got up and took a shower, and then it donned on me. She may have gotten pregnant or an STD because she had unprotected sex. Her period is supposed to start on Thursday next week.

I am going to be a nervous wreck until she has her period. Is there anything I can do to minimize my anxiety or prepare myself for the real possibility that she may be pregnant? We don't believe in abortion, and if she is pregnant, then I would not ask this of her.

Advice, anyone?

sorry to bump my own thread...

Advice? Well, you can't control whether or not she's pregnant, can you?

Have her get a full STD screening. Don't count on OM's word that he's a clean-living cad.

How are you doing on those old bad habits? Are you ready for the possibility that she might have some times when she feels depressed and surly? Is she ready for it?

GC

Heh, I guess you are right about that. It just makes the affair much more concrete with consequences that we both will have to deal with if she is in fact pregnant.

She says he is clean, and I called a testing place, and they said that if we wait 3 months, we can test for all STD's including AIDS. That's the one I am most afraid of, and it's giving me a lot of anxiety thinking about it.

The old habits are dying a quick and painless death. I am helping a lot more with the kids and spending a lot of time with them and my WW. We are ltting God back into our lives, and I have been praying a lot lately. If you have any prayers to spare, we could use them.

One other twist, I had a vasectomy two years ago, so if she is pregnant, all of my family and friends that don't know about the A will know that the child is most likely not be mine.

If she's pregnant, does that mean the O/M will have to be involved in our lives forever?

I am so confused, anxious and very very nervous right now.

Chances are she's not pregnant. I'm not a medical person, but I suppose a nurse or GP or OBGYN could tell you the odds that unprotected sex for X amount of time results in pregnancy. Or maybe someone here knows? Lemonman comes to mind. Lem are you there?

Honestly bro. I KNOW I don't need to pull your head out of the sand on this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Not if you don't contest the paternity. In a lot of places the child is presumed to be the product of the marriage. Third parties cannot insist on a paternity test. Depending on your state your mileage may vary. Best to talk to an attorney.

Also - please don't wait the 3 mos to get tested. For heaven's sake - go back for the HIV test later. Get the rest of it handled now. Go with her. Be there for the exam. It has a two fold purpose. She can't lie to the doctor and wind up NOT getting tested AND you will go through it as a team. I've had to make that trip to the Dr. twice with Flukette. It wasn't pleasant but it allowed the doc to ask questions and prescribe AD's at the same time.

Praying for you. Stay in the reality of this. Don't go to the room of denial on any of this. K?

Ok this is the second thread in like three days where I've read it be suggested if the WW is not practicing NC but wants SF from hubby then the BH should comply.

One reason I read in another thread for this was "sex is not just sex for women"

And in this thread I read where the BH should not ask for SF from WW?


Why is that? Can anyone tell me? Ladies, if the roles were reversed, should the betrayed wife give SF to a wayward husband just because he asks for it? And if not, then why? Desparate Housewives?

Also, I don't see a lot of mention of having her tested for STD PRIOR to giving SF.

If your WW asks for sex, she's reaching out. It's possible at these times that she is in a very deep and serious crisis, and is trying to grab hold of the life she's contemplating giving up.

A part of her may want very badly to abandon her husband for OM, and reaching out for SF might be an attempt to silence that part of her, to convince herself not to do what she wants to do.

This may be an act of great desperation. The event may be a tipping point for her, which is to say that the outcome of this one small moment may have huge consequences.

Of course I could be wrong... but I'm about 95% sure I've seen this happen with my own eyes.

GC

But it's not the same for a WH?

eta

I'm not looking to argue or anything. I truly want to understand why it should be different for WW vs WH as far as SF, or am I just wrong...or not reading correctly, AND the advice would be the same regardless of gender? I just haven't read much about betrayed wives being suggested by others to allow WH get SF when they are not 100% proven NC with OW?

What would be the difference if any at all?

The STD factor is present regardless of gender. In fact, isn't it easier for a woman to get HIV than a man during unprotected conventional intercourse?

I may have overdramatized a little there... but I think when a WW makes a request to her BH--for any kind of need-fulfilling stuff--her better self is trying to build a case for staying in her marriage. If you want to stay married it's best to help her with that.

GC

I don't know if it's the same for a WH. I suppose it can be.

But if a WW is mooning over the OM and suddenly her BH shows up and gloms onto her and asks for SF, no way can that be a good thing.

Maybe a woman can do a better job of answering these questions than I am.

GC

Yes, but that is same for a man is it not? Shouldn't a betrayed wife who wants to stay married do the same?

Only reason I am asking this is I found out my FWW was with me AND OM during same day on at least one occasion during her six mo affair and during that time we never stopped SF, though SF had slowed down of course, I just didn't catch on as to wy until later. I found out on my own she was cheating months later, after the fact. She had already had herself tested for STD before I found out, but apparently didn't feel the need for me to be tested and was never going to tell me about it.

I otoh had a ons, and my wife refused SF until I was tested, which I can understand and complied with.

OK, I will convince her that she needs to get herself tested fot STD's now and in 6 months. She is not having SF with the O/M. NC is in effect. Should we stay abstinent, or use protection while we await the results?

Keep in mind, that the clinic I called said we could wait 3 weeks or 6 months. If we wanted to test for HIV, then we would have to wait 6 months for any measurable HIV antibodies appear in the blood. But, we could test for the most common STD's at 3 weeks.

She only had sex once with O/M. She said it lasted for about 1-2 minutes with him pulling out 5 seconds before ejaculating on the bed. He did not ejaculate inside or on her.

If the above was too graphic, please let me know.

Hey, don't want to make you upset, but I wouldn't put 100% belief in the 1-2 minutes of sex and bed spread stuff.

GrayCloud, I do understand what you were trying to say about being more appealing than OM, I guess my sitch was different in that OM was like about 4 months gone after I found out and the SF got hard for a while thereafter for me to oblige. What I did instead, and this may be bad, but I focused on myself a lot, got in a lot better shape, started wearing contacts etc etc to make her feel threatened and she noticed and started getting clingy and "glomed"(sp?) but that made me feel good

Then months later I ended up being universal @ss jerk by doing the ons because [email]I...h@ll[/email], I don't know to this day.

Maybe there is a difference between WW and WH.

Under the circumstances - don't worry about it. We're here to deal with the truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The conservative side of me says no SF until she's cleared. However, the practical side of me says that it CAN be a healing thing. You'll have to make the call. STD's are far too common as many on this board can attest to. There are plenty of people here who have been given one of the "gifts that keep on giving" because they didn't know about the A or they didn't abstain. Protection will help but won't stop some of the nasties. HPV is one that comes to mind. Genital warts are probably not something you want to deal with forever.

It's your call bro - knowing all I know now about the OM in my sit I would have abstained completely. (We came out clean BTW. Thank God.)

Still praying for you. Keep posting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree with the Right Honorable Eldente on this. It rarely goes down this way. My FWW's "just kissing" in reality was 3 yrs of sexual activity. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, ask her this:

"who the ****** needs a haircut once a WEEK?"

"Well, it turns out she did cut his hair yesterday."

I realize that this was a few yes2rdays ago, but it still seems 2 me that one critical piece of exposure hasn't been done. The pathetic OM's MOMMY! Well, there's another... her coworkers. Her employer (oops, that's 2). She should be willing 2 QUIT her job if the fool won't stop coming around for haircuts (once a week? SHEESH this little boy is full of himself!). And YOU should be willing 2 move your entire family 6 states away if that's what it takes 2 pinch this nonsense off.

"This hurts because she won't make him stop coming to the barber shop to get his hair cut."

She can't make him do anything, but exposure would sure put a damper on his enthusiasm about coming in himself.

"She doesn't work at the shope Thursday through Sunday. I tried to convince her to tell him to only come to the shop on her days off. She insists that he has been trying to find a good barber for a long time."

A number of things wrong here:

*You should not be asking her 2 have contact with him 2 get NC. Doesn't make sense, and your W will take that as an excuse for all kinds of "innocent" contact - like "happy birthday" or "how are you doing?".

*Calmly inform her that you don't care if he has 2 drive 3 days 2 get 2 Outer Slobovia 2 have his hairs cut. It's NOT her PROBLEM.

-ol' 2long

She was very graphic with me, she said they made out for a little while, then had intercourse. She said her top hadn't even been taken off before he ejaculated.

I trust that what my wife is telling me is true, because she has a history of being very brutally honest with me. I did seek out the truth and I don't believe I am in denial. She said she felt really dirty and she had shown signs of deep depression between the act and her telling me. I hope this gives you more insight into her psyche.

You "trust" that your wife has been honest here? Are you willing to bet on her with possibly your life? On second thought, don't answer that.

I have to be honest here....even as recently as one month ago, I would have extolled the importance of STD testing and the extreme importance and absolute neccesity of maintaining abstinence with a cheating WS(noticed that I didn't say complete lack of affection)...but as I read more here and realize the absolute lost cause this is, I can say that I give up. Adults should be adults. Live with the consequences of your actions. Whatever that may be. I see people wanting to "live in the moment" (BS I am taking about)....I say whatever now.

To those of you who were afraid of another thread on this "subject", you can breath easier. I am done with this.

I remain in complete and utter awe that there is even a contemplation of SF here, but I should not be suprised. I guess I don't "get it". I'll leave it at that.

Lem

It's hard to stop having SF when it's been an exclusive part of our relationship. My only sexual partner has been with WW. We were both virgins when we we're married at 19.

Maybe it's with a denial in mind that I let my guard down to have SF. I realize that I already betted my life by giving in to my fleshly desire. I am very confused to be sure, and I made a foolish choice by having SF.

It's too late now, though. Although I can do what I can to protect myself from now on until we get test results back. Is there no other way to test for AIDS in a more timely fashion? The other STD tests can be performed on Tuesday. Which would make it 21 days since her sexual encounter with O/M.

We have had SF 4 times since I heard the news. 3 times between 1/13/2006 through 1/15/2006. And once last night, 1/26/2006.

If she did have an STD I have more than likely exposed myself to whatever STD she was exposed to, if any. What's really weird is every time I think about STD's my testicles start feeling funny. I also get this same feeling whenever I think about the vasectomy post vasectomy.

Well, you seem to be pretty well versed on the risks of STD's, and maybe your not in denial at all. It is almost like the alcoholic who has liver disease and keeps drinking because he fears what is done is done.

Yes, it is TOO LATE to do anything to prevent WHAT HAS ALREADY happened, but so what.....? You sould do what you can do to prevent further risk.

But you very well know this already. I don't think telling you all of the risks and % of contracting a disease will change anything.

You seem like you know already and are asking a completely different question.

There is no doubt whatsoever that you can find people (perhaps many people) who will support you in meeting your WW Sexual Fulfillment needs as you Plan A..no doubt whatsoever...so if this is what you want, ask and you shall recieve.

Lem

P.S. Ok, I promise, that was my last post on the subject <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am not trying to justify my actions, I was trying to convey my remorse for having done it even though I knew the risks.

Sometime smart people do stupid things because they feel it's the right thing to do at the moment. I admit my clarity of mind was shattered. Remember, this was only like two days after D-Day. My mind surely could not have been clear.

I will remain absstinent until I learn she is free from STD's. I will also have to test myself now.

Sometimes, Lemonman, we have to preach things that we know some people might not want to hear. Keep extolling your message on abstinence, if I had been here before I had SF with her for the first three times, I may have gotten the message before it was too late.

Wise words should never be left unspoken.

She only had sex once with O/M. She said it lasted for about 1-2 minutes with him pulling out 5 seconds before ejaculating on the bed. He did not ejaculate inside or on her.

If the above was too graphic, please let me know.
------------------------------------------------------
If ive learned anything here is that people try and soften the blow when telling of the sexual encounter.

Seriously, I don't want to kick you when you are down, and I will apologize for perhaps doing this. I fully realize the soul shattering pain and anger and rage and fear you are experiencing. No futher need to beat yourself up.

For the record, the chance of a MALE contracting HIV from a woman is about .5% PER OCCURENCE (so odds are with you any way you slice it), so breath easy and stop beating yourslef up. What ever you do from here on out, you can consider yourself warned. I think that is good enough.

Goodluck. My post to you may have had some displaced anger from previous posts about this here and I apologize for giving you more $hit than you need about this.

Lem

I just stumbled upon this forum as I was checking this website out. It seems to me that all of you are men, speaking from a woman's perspective, NO WAY would I have slept with my cheating husband!, to answer an earlier post from another member. And maybe something has been missed here, but, if your spouse was such an honest person with you, what is it called when she is having an affair? honesty? As far as looking so long for a good barber, that had to be the most lame excuse I have ever heard. The only reason he goes weekly is to see her, not to keep his locks lovely! Either he needs to not go there or she needs to quit, or else it will not end. If you think it can, your fooling yourself. That would be the same as an alcoholic saying he's quiting drinking, yet continue to frequent the bar he always drank at. Put your foot down and take a firm stand, you seem to be too nice for the situation SHE has put you in. Trust me as a woman, she will continue to walk all over you if you don't stand up. Sorry if I am too forward, but...

LOL.....well, you have not seen anything then. That is child's play compared to what other Wayward Spoues have said.

Look around here, and you'll be amazed.

Lem

Well, Jen, being that this is your FIRST post, I challenge you to read alot of the posts regarding this subject here and then come back and tell me if you still believe that this is "men, speaking from a woman's perspective".....LOL.

Lem

Just reading this situation is what I was talking about, speaking as a woman to what appears to be all men posting- on this story alone. Another member had raised the question had it been a woman in the same situation, would she have to react the same way, would she have sex with her cheating husband etc., and would she be expected to give it up when he requested. I was just giving a woman's perspective in response. In fact, I think I would have a hard time treating his "love tool" with love at that point! No, infidelity has not been an issue in our marriage, so I can't speak with experience, but, there are things in life that seem like no brainers, such as continuing to have sex while your spouse is still interacting with another man and a cheating spouse agreeing to end it while still cutting his hair. Yes, the incidence of std's is on a frightening rise, and it is nothing to mess around with. I could pull out my textbooks for actually current stats, and if you weren't familiar with the current numbers, your head would go spinning. By the way Lem, I like your signature.

Whew, Lem, Thanks for showing up.
When I read a few pages back about SF with WW, the hair on the back of neck stood up.
As one who now carries an STD for life, I will be the first to disagree that SF should take place as part of recovery, unless and untill ALL testing is done first.
Lem, we've discussed before that this is the one chink in Dr. H's MB program. It is not talked about or discussed.
My STD (compliments of my fww)was the very thing that led to the revelation of her A. This, after 3 decades of a monogomous M. I guess the only upshot in my case, is that it finally revealed the truth, a truth that would have been kept from me forever.
Lem, you seem to be the likely one to start this campaine on this forum. You have the credentials. I'll be your poster person, if youl'd like <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
All Blessings,
Jerry

Lemmonman, from the few months I've been reading here I agree with you 100% about this statement.


To be as sure as possible, doesn't one have to get tested for HIV 3 months after last sex, and then again 6 months after that?

edited to remove link from other recent thread. Wasn't intended as a 'dredge", more as an extension(or helping hand) of your previous suggestion to poster above to look around and see it's not just "men, speaking from a woman's perspective"

Yep. Their aint no way around it if you want to be sure.

Some Betrayee Spouses unfortunately through their grief and desperation for their marriage won't want to see this and will play the odds. To some, contracting an STD or HIV is worth risking in attracting back their Wayward Spouse. I don't think it is necesary to dredge up the "who" and "where" of this.

If they (BS) make that decision as an adult, then they need to live with the consequences as an ADULT.

Lem

Jerry:

Thanks, but no thanks.

I have fought this fight for a year now here. It culminated in an email to the MB "powers that be" that went unanswered.

I received 2 emails about three weeks ago from very well respected and known members of the messagae board here asking me to please drop this (imploring abstinence for a BS) as it was messing up people's Plan A, and at times going in direct contrast to what was being advised By Willard and Steve Harley for people to do as they worked in Plan A and worked to meet previously unmet needs of their Wayward Spouse.

That was enough for me.....it's kind of like the ship you just jump off of and let sink. That is me now with this issue. I am still passionate about it, but at the moment I don't have the desire nor energy to champion the cause.

I really don't. It is like a broken record. Even I agree.

I have no way to "win" this issue here when the OFFICIAL program remains consistently mute on the subject, and the issue is thrown around a little here and there on the message boards and then suppressed to the bottom again.

It remains the big white elephant in the corner of the room.

It is very saddening to me, but that is something that is my problem......well, in a way not really.

Thank you for the callout nonetheless.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It turns out she is not pregnant (Thank God)! She started her period today.

I am leading her out of the fog, made my stance regarding O/M very clear and firm.

Taking this one day at a time and hoping we can reconcile and recover our M.

I'm not sure what else to say at this point. Some moments I am hopeful and others I am very sad. Some times I don't think it's right that I should change because she cheated on me, it's almost like I am re-inforcing the idea that the A was a legitimate thing. At other times, I realize that I need to change because being how I was can't make her happy.

"I received 2 emails about three weeks ago from very well respected and known members of the message board here asking me to please drop this (imploring abstinence for a BS) as it was messing up people's Plan A, and at times going in direct contrast to what was being advised By Willard and Steve Harley for people to do as they worked in Plan A and worked to meet previously unmet needs of their Wayward Spouse."

LM, are you serious about this? I guess the thoughts that immediately come to my mind are...IDIOTIC and IRRESPONSIBLE!

Put down your padded 2x4 my friend. I believe it's time for ME to pick up mine. No padding on mine though...pure seasoned birch! What's the worst that can happen? My wife die of AIDS?

No...wait...that's already happened...April 5th 2005!!!!

**Sorry for the "threadjack", but stupidity like this REALLY pi$$es me off!**

So, it looks like O/M broke N/C, by calling her when she was missing him. She broke N/C by having lunch with him again yesterday. He told her that he doesn't want anything to do with her, unless we are through and I am out of her life. She says that he is so decent (yeah what a nice guy), that he doesn't want to ruin her life. He also freaked out when they saw my brother drive by when they were having lunch together. At around 3:30 she called me at work and told me to pack my things, that she doesn't want things to work out. I frimly stood my ground and told her that if she wants out, she can leave. I didn't want that, but I told her that this is my house, these are my children. If she wants to have a double life, to go ahead without us.

He said that before, he was playing with fire, but now, he is playing with explosives. He knows that her father, me, my brother and my friends will look for his blood if we ever find out his identity. Nearly everyone in her family and mine know about the A, so it's not a secret.

So, now they both are doing the N/C thing, but I am not sure. Her mother and Father and I had a very long discussion with her last night when she came home. I am so glad to have the support of her parents on my side. They are very good christian people, and will not tolerate their daughter doing this to them and their grandchildren. I prayed, my mother prayed, and I think my wife sees how much I still love her.

She is still in the fog, and I am trying to help her find the way out. Plan A is in total effect, and I will be ready to implement Plan B if N/C can't be established.

First of all, I would like to thank MB for giving me the tools and knowledge for taking the steps necessary to recover my marriage.

Over the past couple of weeks I have been in Plan A. I had minimized all LB's and meeting most if not all of her EN's. All of that work seem to have paid off last night.

I had been monitoring her system with a keylogger and she had been truthful to me except in one regard. She was using MySpace to communicate to O/M and I saw all of her sent messages. I confronted her with this and she blew up at me saying that I should not be going her back to snoop on her PC and that I was pushing her away. I explained that she has no right to privacy right now. And that she should have no secrets from me. She said that I was being such a wonderful husband right after that and apologized to me.

Over the past couple of weeks, WW has gone back and forth, sence fitting and cake eating by cutting OM's hair. Last night I firmly put my foot down and told her that any contact with him is inappropriate and that we would never heal our Marriage if she continued to see him on a weekly basis. She said she had no control over O/M coming into the shop for a hair cut. I explained to her that if he disrespected her wishes to have no contact that it could potentially turn into obsession or stalking from him. Of course he would never do that (bleh).

She agreed with me to write a no contact letter and here it is...


It took her about 30 minutes while I sat next to her. After she sent the message, she got really angry with me, and told me that I would just go back to my old ways and she would die a sad old woman. I assured her that the past is the past and I will continually meet her EN's from this day forth.

I also let her know that she needed to do her part in reconciling and no contact is the first step in a long journey of recovery. She agreed and proceeded to delete her MySpace site, AIM and all non family contacts from her IM. She also voluntarily decided to quit her job at the barber shop and take the offer from our friends at a different barber shop.

I am elated... Any clarification on the above needed? Ask, I am too scatter brained to make a comprehensive post right now.

FormerNeglector

Oh, happy news! Just what we love to hear.

Now be sure to keep up your end of the bargain. Don't forget 15 hours a week, doing fun things together.

Now you're on the right track. Good for you FN, NC is paramount to ending the A. Harley states this over and over again, and now you see why.
NC is the starting blocks of this race. Get ready to run the marathon. this is not a sprint.
Good job in enforcing your boundary!
We are here for you when you need the help and advise.
All blessings,
Jerry

We were taking a shower this AM, and she stated that he wasn't attractive at all to her. I explained to her that he probably met her needs of conversation and adoration, so he didn't have to be attractive. We had good SF, and I am planning a fun Valentine evening with her and the kids.

I will probably purchase the book, "His Needs Her Needs" and read it together.

My mother got us the book, "The 7 Love Agreements". I read chapter one out loud last night before we went to bed.

Things are looking up and I actually have a spring to my step this morning. WW said she can tell when I'm happy when I whistle and sing, and I was doing that this AM. Haven't done that in a long time.

Thanks for listening...

I purchased HNHN on audio CD so my wife and I could listen to it together. I recommend planning a road trip with wife with no kids (obviously) so you can both listen and pause the CD at appropriate opportunities for discussion.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

FN, man, you're doing well.

GC

Depression and anger has hit me really hard the past couple of days. My wife has been very supportive and understanding of my pain. I am having great difficulty concentrating at work. Is this normal? I just want to be happy again. When I am depressed, it stresses my wife out.

She has answered every question I have had about the affair. She says that she doesn't know who she was during that time. She feels very remorseful and I know that recovery is the road I want to be on. I just have a hard time hearing the words "I love you". I need to learn some coping strategies for this part of my life. I feel my anger and I hate that part of me. I hate it! I just want to feel "normal" again.

Just ranting here, if anyone has words of encouragement or understanding, I would love to hear them.

Thanks,
FN