I was married Mar.26th 1988 and am the father of 5 children. I had an affair that began in Feb of this year. I was confronted by my wife in Apr. and admitted I was having an affair, but I was also protecting the affair at the same time. I was asked to leave the home June 15th when she discovered I was still lying, and still cheating. I asked to come home in July and was allowed back in the home. I ended the affair and I was asked to go to counciling and work the marriage builders program to restore our marriage. I was not willing, nor broken enough to follow through, and the result was I left again Sept.3rd and rented a condo. I started the affair again. I was finally broken enough to end the affair a week and a half ago. I contacted my wife and we are commited to reconciling. We left town tuesday night to be together away from all others so we can begin the work together. I have agreed to all she is asking, I am however broken and scared. We have shared together EVERYTHING this time. There are no more half measures available to me. She used every bit of tough love advise available from all the forums on this sight. The tough love realities helped break me, however, I just learned she gave herself to another man four weeks ago and that she told me she also gave her heart to him. I am so confused, broken and scared but also commited to whatever it takes. If you want to know my wifes story she told me to let everyone know she posts as sexymamabear. I could use some honest feedback for a change. tst

Welcome to marriagebuilders. I'm glad you decided to post and hope you will do some reading here. I've grown quite fond of your wife, and think you are making the best choice for yourself, her and your family.

The first thing you need to do is to write the other woman a no contact letter. It should explain that the affair was a mistake, you love your wife, and will be working on the marriage. It should ask her never to contact you again for any reason. Then your wife should read the letter and send it to the other woman.

Welcome. I hope that your marriage counseling is Marriage Builders based.

It is sad that your wife had an affair. Never a good move when trying to recover a marriage that has been damaged by infidelity. It has further muddied the waters that your wife succumbed to involvement with another man.

I have not read your wife's posts. There is so much you both need to do to recover your marriage. I hope others show up soon to support you.

Hi tst,

I have supported your wife from her first posts in April, bumping her thread many times when we did not hear from her....but I kept praying for her....and for you, too.

Welcome to Marriagebuilders. Many of us have been (and may continue to be) suspicious of you so please understand that things may seem a little testy. I'm so glad you have the courage to post here and I trust you will be diligent to follow up on the excellent suggestions made, even if some may be the most difficult endeavors you've ever experienced.

God can work miracles and the tools you both can learn here on MB can help you recover, survive, and maybe even thrive to be a blessing to others a ways down the road.

I'll be praying for you, tst and smb.

Blessings,

Ace

Welcome and kudos for being here.

Play it straight and you will get a lot of support. If you try and BS us, be prepared for a tsunami of truth to hit home quick.

We love repentant WS's here.

Your W posts under what name and what is her stance now? Recovery or fog?

Both of you are WS/BS'?

L.

Hi tst, welcome to Marriage Builders, sorry you are here. The most important first steps in your recovering your marriage will be to a) end all contact with your OW and b) spend 15 hours a week with your wife meeting each others needs so you can fall back in love with each other.

Have you ended all contact with your OW and taken steps to ensure there will be no incidental contact?

I have shown this article to your wife, but here is a comprehensive outline of recovery after adultery. Glad you made it over here, friend, you are going to get over this with a little hard work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

So you went to your wife with a reconciliation offer before you found out she was involved with an OM, right?

What is it about this time that has gotten you to the point of really being able to end the adultery, really being serious about reconciliation with your wife?

Did you notice something different about your BW's attitude, lifestyle, words, etc.?

What changed to cause you to want to give up OW?

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.

I am praying for you and your wife. It will be a long road, but when God works a miracle, all things are possible. Buckle in for a long ride; it will be worth it all when you reach your destination!

Tst:

Don't get this wrong, because I am 100 per cent against infidelity, but don't be too hard on your spouse. Not only did you cheat, you lied and said it was over when it wasn't. This is a devastating action!

Nevertheless, fixing this is not impossible. A good marriage is like a garden. You just made yours a lot more difficult to till, but it can still be fruitful.

Believer,

I have agreed to write a no contact letter with my wife before we even return home.

Any thoughts about what is next?

My wife posts as sexymamabear and I am not sure where she is yet.

Yes, we are both WS/BS.

I have ended all contact and my wife and I are working together while we are away in setting up ways to ensure no incidental contact. Such as all passwords and files of email accounts and cell phones. We are working on a no contact letter together.

I have read the article that you linked and will be willing to do whatever it takes.

I went to my wife with an apology letter and only asked if she would have an interest in reconciliation. My only intention of the letter was offer the most sincere apology I could.

I did not know she was involved with anyone until after I had agreed to whatever she wanted. And I still am in agreement to do whatever it takes.

It has taken me hours and days to answer these questions to my wife. I will do my best to express the answers here.

Over the last months, God convicted me of so many different things. He showed me how important my children were and how important it was to me that they remain with their mom being homeschooled and in a nurturing environment. I mentioned this to OW and she thought I was crazy. She actually said I was stupid to not try to take the kids from my wife. At that moment I realized she was not who I thought she was. She was no more than a counterfeit. And that I had left the real one behind. I was so sad. That is when I began to become broken. And I knew that the affair had to end. It took me several more weeks before I actually confronted OW to end the relationship. This was before I talked with my wife about reconciling. God broke me and made me realize that I could never be involved with anyone regardless of if my wife took me back. That I was a dad and my kids needed all of me because I had destroyed their lives. It all just broke my heart so much. For nearly a month, I wrestled with God until I could apologize to my wife. He had to make sure I was completely broken and I am willing to be broken more.

I think my stomach muscles have become detached from my insides from crying and shaking so much over the past few weeks. I have probably only been averaging 2-3 hours of sleep a night for the last three weeks. I know God still has more to do. He's done for me what I can't do for myself. And I need a lot of help. I need a lot of help from real people because the world tried to destroy me. I got so caught up in all the lies. It's so amazing the man I became in such a short period of time. I never would have believed I could do what I did.

It wasn't enough for her to just help you self destruct, but she wanted to destroy your family, too. How fortunate that you stopped before this got any worse, tst. Going through with this would have killed your soul and left far reaching ramifications for you, your wife and your children. This is the kind of stuff that leads to drinking to drown out our consciences. Your children would never be the same again. Never.

Have you been getting to meetings, tst, and have you told them what happened? Do you have another sponsor?

But the man YOU ARE stood up and stopped this massacre of his family and his soul. That is who you ARE. You are not a man who could go through with it.

Your post made me cry. My FWH could have written the same words and has said pretty much the same thing. He said it was like he was in a trance... nothing seemed real. God worked a miracle in him too... my FWH was a broken man. But you know what, it's easier for God to deal with a broken person than someone who isn't completely repentant. I sincerely hope you are.

Some day you and SMB will look back on this and know that you came through the fire. Hopefully you both will learn from this and be there to help others.

tst,
Glad to have you here.

Besides all of the good advice given to you, I'd advise that you read Surviving an Affair. Can't remember if SMB has it or not. It'll help you understand the dynamics of affairs. They are pretty much the same, just with a few minor differences. You'll get an idea of HOW you got to where you are. But, you'll need to figure out the WHY. This is so you can prevent it from happening again in the future. You want to affair proof you M.

We all have weaknesses. You did not protect yours, and unfortunately neither did SMB.

Another thing to consider is that the A was not about the OW, it was about YOU. The OW could have been anyone meeting some of your needs. All you. Same goes for SMB. The OM was meeting her emotional needs. You both made a decision to step over the line. Yes, hers was a reaction stemming from yours, but she still has to own this.

Unfortunately, BSs become extremely vulnerable after DDay. Our self esteem is in the negatives, our world ceases to exist. We cannot trust our S and we cannot trust ourselves.

We had an idea of our lives and we believed this reality. Yet suddenly it is gone and we are devastated. Alone, trying to manage, survive, function.

I wish SMB had let on, we might have been able to stop her. Now she's got to live with it. I am truly saddened by that.

I suggest SMB also write an NC letter to the OM. I don't know what he was told, but he was used. She said he has her heart, but this is actually his meeting her needs. And getting your needs met brings on intense feelings, not for the OP but for the feelings themselves. That's what's addicting. That's what you go back for. Only way to get rid of those feelings (disguised as feelings for the OPs) is NC for life.

Don't want to overdo it. You have alot on your plate right now.

So...
1) NC letter for both
2) 15 hours together weekly
3) Be Transparent (open and honest)
4) Stop love busters (LB) read up on these here
5) Learn yours and her top emotional needs and how to meet them.
6) Read, read, read this site. Learn the concepts. They work.


Recovery is very difficult. Some days, you'll be happy you are home, some days you will wonder why you came back. SMB will too. Learn to not react with emotions. Your goal is a happy, healthy M...work towards that.

We'll be here. Keep posting.

I do not have a sponsor that I am using, it is on my new to do list. I have been going to meetings and many of the members of my home group know whats been going on, just none of the details.

tst, I would suggest getting to a closed meeting and telling them what has happened and getting a sponsor NOW. They can help keep you accountable......and SOBER.

Have you seen the similarities between alcohol addiction and your affair yet? As in the addictive nature and the fantasy based, destructive, irrational thinking?

Below is my draft of the no contact letter. I still need to add a part to it that I would like your feedback on. When I told OW, that I was returning to my family, she told me she wanted me to return items that she had given me. I am not sure what to do. I was considering FedExing them to her and telling her so in this letter. If I don't mention it, she will probably contact me.

Any thoughts?

OW,

I am reconciled with my wife of 19 years and back home with my family where I always belonged. I am writing you to inform you that we can at no time for any reason whatsoever have any contact with one another.

What kind of items, TST? If they are just sentimental things such as cards, letters or pictures, or personal items such as men's clothing or cologne, etc, just destroy them! You don't owe her an explanation.
If these are items with high monetary value that she could conceivably accuse you of stealing (electronics, cars etc) get a third party to deliver them, would be my suggestion. I would not get caught up in even a conversation with OW regarding these items.

These items are monetary items not sentimental in any way. They are all household items, i.e., vacuum cleaner, small TV, and such.

I would rather ship them with my wife handling the shipment. My wife has agreed to that.

Should I tell her in the NC letter that these items are being shipped to avoid her contacting me about them?

tst, I would suggest just burning the items. The OW has no need of those items, they are rightfully yours to do with what you choose. Sending them back only opens up the door for renewed contact and triggers her feelings.

Secondly, I would work more on that no contact letter to the OW. It really is not enough at all. The letter should be approved by SMB and mailed together.

Your affair was a grievous assault on your wife and a terrible mistake. That needs to be stated in there as a GOOD WILL GESTURE to your wife. The letter should state "how selfish it was to cause such pain to one you love and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it would be the right thing to do." Dr. Harley suggests something along these lines:
[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that SMB did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay SMB for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, tst

I agree with Melody. Your NC letter is a bit watered down. You sound like an old dog who got out and is now back in the yard where he belongs.

Also, knowing how some women are, if you send that trash back to her she will save them as momentos of her sleazy affair, which will keep her triggered for years to come. Better to burn any remaining tokens of this such a horrific assault on your family.

I'm in agreement with your thoughts. I just have never done this before and I need the feedback. I am rewriting to mirror your suggestions.

thanks for listening, tst.

tst

I wanted to send a little encouragement your way.

Know that good people can make BAD mistakes. That choice does not have to define you.

You and SMB can get through this. You can have a rewarding, loving M in the future. All is not ruined forever.

Reach for God. Keep SMB close. Hug your kids.

Thanks, I am in a lot of physical pain dealing with all the pain I see I caused my wife and family. I'm shaking uncontrolably through out the nights and cannot sleep at all. I feel like every ounce of my being is completly ripped apart.
I have told my wife I will do whatever it takes. I have written a NC letter, committed to at minimum 15 hours a week together.
I am answering every detailed question she is asking about the OW and there are so many.
Giving her all details of my business, money, and records. I am changing every email account and cell phones, etc. to avoid any contact from OW. I am going to sign over all business and personal assets through a post nupual agreement as she has asked, using her attorney.
I am going to give her complete reign over all passwords that are used in my business and personal areas and share with my I.T. personel everything that has happened, with her present, so they know she is in control.
I offered to give her sole custody of our children in the post nupual agreement.
I told her I would make ammend to all close and extended family and to all our friends that have been hurt by this.
I have agreed to 3 accountablity partners of her choice.
I sincerely will do whatever it takes.
I haved agreed to end any activity that take me away from home, both business or personal.
I will do these things and anything else she asks of me. I am all in!
we have spent 4 full days; 24/7 together, out of town and I am so glad we have. I don't think this much work together could have done otherwise.
I'm not sure that what I'm doing is enough. I watch my wife go somewhere else, she just disappears instantly everytime she hears answers to the detailed questions she asks. She looks so empty and angry that it scares the ****** out of me. She tells me its because she is a different woman and needs to process these things. That its been 6 months of not having these details and that this is part of recovery.

My wife also told me she spiritually divorced me six weeks ago which allowed her the freedom to be with the OM. She told me OM was a chritian man of integrity and would probably have married him. She latter told me his divorce is not yet final. She met him at our churchs' divorce care group and I think he is member of our church.
My wife has said she is commited to this marriage, and I beleive her. We have done so many good things together these past 4 days and I can see many things clearly I've never seen before. I do have hope.
Because I am dealing with all the remorse and pain I caused my wife from my affair. I don't feel I have permission to ask questions about the OM. I feel so scared about this event and it hurts. I feel this event is my fault.
This OM does not change my plans to do whatever she asks of me, I really am willing to do whatever it takes I just need feedback and help to keep me going forward. These waters are so muddy.
Whats normal, what should I expect from all this fallout, for how long, etc.
I do know God was so in their fighting for me and he is breaking the very fibers of my soul to create a new man in me. The process is just physically and emotionally killing me. I have not been able to sleep more than an hour a night the past 5 nights. I cry and shake all night.
I'm sorry if I am rambling. I have so much more I could say but my typing skills suck!
Some thoughts please.
Tell me I'm loser.
Tell me I don't deserve help after all I did.
Tell me something.
Just please talk to me.

"My wife also told me she spiritually divorced me six weeks ago which allowed her the freedom to be with the OM. She told me OM was a chritian man of integrity and would probably have married him. She latter told me his divorce is not yet final. She met him at our churchs' divorce care group and I think he is member of our church."

When your wife posts again, I will point out that there is some foggy thinking going on.

tst,

Right now, sleep is very important for your recovery.

First, take a deep breathe. Then hold it for a few seconds. Now exhale slowly.

Next, ask yourself what it is that you fear the most.

Is it the loss of your wife's love, now that you are committed again?

Or do you think your children have been hurt too deeply?

If so, then it's okay to let the tears flow.

Next, say a prayer. You only need to say a few words, like "Jesus, I trust in you". Say it again, until you begin to believe it.

Then let yourself go to sleep, and get some rest. You will do better the next day. The Lord will help you.

-LE

TST,

I'm truly touched by your willingness to save your M. I just hope that this is not a temporary condition. If I remember correctly, you have been seeing OP for 13 yrs??? This is not going to be an easy R to break. But with everything that you are offering, I believe that it is real.

At any rate, most of us BS's out here would give anything to have our WH's do what you are willing to do.

I believe that if both you and SMB feel the same and are really committed, you can have the most wonderful marriage ever. Call the Harleys. I love Jennifer because she has the plan all laid out for being passionately in love again.
I wish my WH would be as open to it as you are. Go for it and don't let go..... You won't regret it.

Have you read the 31 reasons to end an affair? I suggest you both read this as it really hits the nail on the head. The link is in a post from me last night called "Calling Mr. Wondering."

Oh, and while I don't agree with SMB's decision to get involved in another R, I can understand it. Please try to understand that we BS's have our dignity stripped, our self esteem shattered, and our identities cut in half. We're lost souls sometimes, but some of us are stronger than others. And we are terribly lonely at times too. I think we would all be lying if we said that we hadn't thought about it at times. Jennifer even warned me about it because she knows how vulnerable the BS is. So try to understand how it happened to SMB.

I wish you the best.....

tst, no you aren't a loser. A loser would be continuing to do what you were doing. A loser would not feel grief and remorse for his cruelty to others. A loser does not try to right his wrongs. So, we already have evidence that you are not a loser.

But I think if you continue to beat yourself up in this way, it will impede your path back to recovery. Your family needs an intact husband and father right now. You are a broken man who needs to concentrate on getting fixed so he can be there for his family. I know that you feel bad, and you should feel bad, but please don't allow it to disrupt your mission, ok?

And secondly, you do have a right to know all the details about your W's affair. Yes, you did invite that into your marriage, but she is responsible for that choice. I intend on taking my 2x4 over to her thread over her rationalization that she was "spiritually divorced." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> That is not even GOOD bullcrap.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Also, if the OM goes to the same church, y'all are going to have leave that church. But before you do, I would make sure the pastor knows all about the affair so he can have a chat with them both.

It is very obvious why you would feel this way. However, it is not your fault. Just as your A was not her fault. You both made choices, bad ones, but still she owns this decision. Yes, she was very vulnerable, yes she was hurt and in pain, but she was still M. She gave herself permission to cross that line. Don't take that responsibility from her.

You should and I advise strongly that you DO ask the questions NOW that you have about her A. If you let them linger unanswered, a time will come when you will need to know those answers. It will be like a new DDay all over again. It's kind of like what she is experiencing now when you answer her questions. It hurts again. Almost as bad as when we first find out. Right now, the channels are open. You two are communicating. Now is the time to calmly ask the questions. Listen. Thank her for her honesty. It will hurt, but that will ease. Don't wait 6 months when things have gotten better to open up and pick at the scab again. NOW is the time.



Yes this is all new information. She IS processing it. It takes time, lots of time. An average recovery goes anywhere from 2-5 years. I recall doing the exact same thing when given new information. It's normal.

Good people can make bad decisions. They can lose their way, like you did. But you can find your way again. You won't ever forget this pain, it'll help guide you in the future. Your journey of becoming a truly honorable man is just beginning.

But first you have to start taking care of your physical being. If it's a visit to the Dr's for anti depressants(sp) that's needed...go. You have to be able to function to get through these next few weeks. You're going to end up in the hospital soon enough if you don't act to help yourself. Eat something, lie down, CALM down.

This is going to take a long time. You have miles to go and every day you travel an inch. It feels like this sometimes. Know that what you two are experiencing is normal.

You are not a bad man, you made bad choices. Your M can survive these dark days. IMO...I really feel you two will recover with an outstanding M as a result. You both are in my prayers.

tst,

Ditto Mel's post (as usual).

When you speak to the pastor about the divorce group, please mention the lack of oversight with mixed genders. I've never been to one so I don't know if that's typical....but if so, Chailover is right. That is a recipe for disaster.

Secular lonely hearts clubs might embrace mixed genders, but a church should be aware of the inherrent dangers associated with it if it's not administered and supervised properly.

This in no way discounts smb's responsibility for her choices. But the opportunity without accountability of this church group involved paved the way for her (and her OM) to engage in an inevitable option.

In addition to Mel's suggestion that the pastor chat with both of them, the pastor also needs to include this example as a warning to others in that group.

Ace

Michele and I were simulposting but I agree with her, too. We've all been supporting smb for a long time. For me, your thread is sincere and you don't need to worry that your typing sucks.

Keep posting and we will keep talking to/with you.

You inspire many BS's, tst, so do not hold back. I only wish my FWH would have had the courage to post like you are after we found these forums. We are in recovery, but it is taking longer (IMO) because he has no outlet like I do here on MB.

Still praying for both of you.

Ace

PS I take it back, DH has outlets......(a personal mentor) and we are in MC. Both would be good for you, especially with your AA history.

TST..you deserve our support. Welcome back from the dark side. I will tell you that I have come to care about your wife as a person...and I would hate to see you put her through the same stuff you did before.
You seem like you are on a good path. Find a way to take care of yourself...mentally and physically. make sure there is NC for both your OW and your wife's OM. There needs to be NC for life from this point forward.
Have the inegrity to follwo though with a polygraph. If you are like the vast amjority of other WS's you are still hanging on to lies, thinking you are doing her a favor. DON'T. Get it all out now.

I wish you luck and pray you too can find a happy life.

Now...get that kitchen done and stop being so controlling..it is a shameful display of weakness to need to control those around you.

MEDC

tst,

I've been praying for both of you all day. One thing that came to me when I nearly committed suicide.......I realized that my experiences with those feelings would some day help me empathize with others in the same circumstances so that I could be a blessing to them some day in some way.

It actually gave me the strength to avoid slamming my car into a concrete bridge abutment on my lowest of low days. There's no way I should have been behind the wheel that day.....glad my angels were working overtime.

This was not God's plan for either of you tst, but He can use it for His glory. Try to grasp that concept when you feel worthless. You are not a loser, for you are a man who made many mistakes and now have realized it. You will recover for yourself, your wife and family as well as others, for whom you might be a blessing to those who have experienced what you're now going through.

Keep posting when you can and update us on how we can continue to support you both.

Ace

tst-

Even after King David committed adultery, got his affair partner pregnant and then had her husband killed to cover it up so he could quickly marry her-once he repented, God still called him "A man after God's own heart".

Don't forget that.

Their son Solomon became the king that God had build His temple.

Here's something our pastor said this morning:

"God isn't interested in perfection. What He wants is progress."

Mistakes are only tragedies if we choose to not learn from them.

Thanks,
I finally slept last night a good 5 hours and my shakes are calming some.
My trip with my wife ends today, we are flying back home tonight. I am scared for both of us. Please encourage my wife and me.
I return to work on Wed. and that is when I know her fears will begin, and mine as well.
I have made a list of people I need to make ammends to for the harms I have done, the lies I have been caught up in and the damages I have done to my family. I asked my wife to be with me as I make these ammends so I have no wiggle room with my pride and ego. I am begining these immediatly.
I also made a list of my personal friends that I am going to meet with, again with my wife, for full disclosure of all the affair. I did not tell many people. and I feel they need to know for my own accountability.
We are sitting down to do our schedules together and carving out the times for our minimum 15 hours together.
I will follow through with her entire list. I have told her I am not limiting what I will do to her list.
we have been spending time holding each other and cuddling. These past 6 days have been a roller coaster for both. But we are in Gods hands.

Make sure to do all the reading you can about recovery after an affair, both on the Q&A columns (link on the top of the page) and the book Surviving an Affair. That is the roadmap that will steer you through this difficult time. Be patient, these things take an average of two years to recover from. It is a marathon, not a sprint.

tst,


I wanted to wish you both well in your journey towards recovery. I understand your fear of going home. My FWH and I took a 12 day trip shortly after D-d and the return home was very difficult.

Just hang in there, this takes a very long time. We are almost at the 4 year mark and we both feel bad from time to time even now.

Who

tst

Your W is struggling with many, many emotions. I am worried deeply about her and her state of mind.

When you get home,things that were there when you left are still going to be there. The triggers will be everywhere. Expect it to be very difficult. Hold SMB, tell her you are sorry. Comfort her like never before. Try to help her in her daily routines, especially the kids. Her seeing you tend to them will help her heart. When you go to work, call her during the day. Reassure her.

SMB, is feeling the worst devastation that a S can feel. She is also going to be angry, and it will come out more as time goes on. It is normal and it's something that you can handle. Try not to react. Just let her vent. She's been through the WORST days of her life and it was at your hands. Accept that responsibility.

It's time to ask for strength and step up to the plate. Your W needs you now. She needs YOU to be strong.

tst,

Here are some suggestions to help you:

1. Read SAA & HNHN both are by Dr Harley
2. Take the EN questionnaire. SMB should know about this also.

3. Call Steve H for a recovery plan.

4. Both you and your W will need closure each in a different way. Find out what each of you needs and then the other can work on being there to help. Help, not do, help. ok?

5. Read the letter in my sig link from Trueheart.

Let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

We are back home and I am at work today. We are working hard together getting through our lists of "to do's".
Doing OK so far. I will update you when I have more time. Keep the suggestions and prayers coming. Thanks!

Still offering more <<<<<<prayers>>>>>> for your family.

Jewel

(((((((tst and SMB)))))))))

Praying for you both.

Just had a good lunch with my wife. She gave me her NC letter. I need feedback - DO NOT beat her up - I am asking for feedback to come to ME only.
"Dear OM
Out of love and respect for my husband and children, I realize I must never see you again.
Rebuilding my marriage is my top priority, and I will do whatever it takes to restore my family. My relationship with you has complicated the process of reconciliation by creating more issues to overcome.
I ask that you allow my family to continue to worship at a church we have been connected with for many years by seeking a new church for yourself.
I will not make any further contact with you, and I do not want you to make any further contact with me."

Again - Please limit feedback to me only.

tst, I would ask her to use accurate language to describe this. A "relationship" could be a "relationship" with her mother. this was an AFFAIR and she needs to say that.

I am concerned about putting the onus on him to leave your church. What will your plan be if he doesn't comply? How will you know if he does, other than running into him again at church? You can't make the man leave the church, and it is you and SMB who want no contact after all.

Do you have a back up plan in case he won't leave?

That's fine should they choose to do so. If she believes that its necessary for there to be no contact (which her letter states she believes), then should they choose not to change churches, it is equally reasonable for her to agree to change churches, right?

I would also echo what Melody said about changing the word relationship to affair.

If you want NC, it is your responsibility to find a new place to worship, not his, IMO.

TYK...first off...it is ALWAYS necessary for their to be no contact.

I agree that the language should say "affair" because that is what it is.


Someone needs to leave the church...immediately...you guys or him...and your pastor should know about this affair too.

Why isn't SMB here speaking for herself? We have supported her for a long time through this....why has she left it to you to do the talking?

I'm in tears over the idea that my affair, that led to her affair, will cost us the church where we love to worship. I just don't think either of us can afford incidental contact.
Remember to save comments to my posts for me. SMB is already feeling alienated. We need help bringing us together.

MEDC
I'm not sure she is posting right now. She is very angry and at times withdrawn.

Your wife is still very foggy. I would certainly think twice before I signed over any assets.

Also you need to let your church know what has transpired. Your pastor can make some changes in the divorce support group so this doesn't happen to anyone else. He can also make some recommendations to the OM about having no contact.

And I urge you to spend some time in AA or wherever fixing YOURSELF. I know you are doing some of that, but please consider that the damage from a 13 year affair isn't going to be repaired in a couple of months.

I am not judging, but just questioning. It seems that you're very remorse over your prior actions, but it also seemd that you were this church devoted Christian family man. What was going through your mind when you're having this affair while doing everything involving church, God, family, etc.?

Your wife's feelings for OM is not gone yet, and it will probably not be gone for a long time to come. If he is persistent, your marriage could be in trouble.

By the way, your wife's letter is clearly asking for more communication and correspondences and interactions between her and him. You (and her) need to ask yourself, what's more important, your marriage (plus going to anther church) or risking your marriage by staying at the same church.

BA - SMB's letter asks no such thing. Where do you read that?

tst, I agree with the others about your church.

Unfortunately, leaving your church may just be one of the consequences that you guys may have to face. Maybe you could ask your pastor about it? This gets into a whole nother issue though. Is OM a member? One out (through your pastor) may be that if OM is confronted by the leadership and is not repentant, leadership can ask him to leave.

My dad was a pastor and we had a similiar scenario come up at our church when I was a teenager.

I don't see this either. Where is she asking for more contact? Maybe I'm just daft and can't read.

[/quote]

I don't see this either. Where is she asking for more contact? Maybe I'm just daft and can't read. [/quote]

She is asking him to leave the church, which can be unreasonable on his view and this requires further discussion on who should leave and why he should leave, etc. thus inviting communication and discussion.

I wrongly assumed that you (BA) were suggesting that SMB wrote something in the letter stating that some contact was acceptable.

You stated that she CLEARLY was asking for more communication. I didn't see that. I saw her not thinking straight and leaving a GAP in her thinking. This is why we all agree that they will have to decide (SMB and tst) to leave the church.

TST...your wife has asked me to come here and check a few things on your thread. I will suggest as someone that SMB has sought out that you put bestadvisor on ignore. This person is new and offers suggestions that are at best in conflict with this board...at worst, they are downright destructive for a marriage.

I have brought this to your attention after being asked here by your wife.

Stop twisting things around. His wife never asked you to tell him to ignore me. If she wants him to ignore me, now that the two of them have open communication, she would have ell him so without telling you to tell him to do so.

BA, why can't you leave these people alone? This is a dire situation and they came here for help with MARRIAGE BUILDERS, something about which you know nothing. Why can't you troll the general denistry board where the stakes are not as high? Have you NO mercy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

tst,

I am Schoolbus, and my professional life and work deals with communication (nonverbal, verbal, and written), memory, language, and deceitful behavior. Additionally, I work in a field that deals with a variety of learning and memory, neurobiological issues, and related issues.

Part of what I do involves the analyses of communicative behaviors between people, and also the analyses of oral, nonverbal, and written language communications.

I have looked at your wife's letter to the OM.

There is absolutely no indication whatsover of any desire on her part for continued communication with him - either clear or nuanced - in the letter.

I do agree that the wording should be changed from "relationship" to "affair", but for a reason of clarity for SMB.

It is often the case that when a person begins using specific terminology to talk about their own behavior, or about certain events, that they are able to see with better clarity those particular behaviors or events. If SMB continues to refer to her affair with the OM as a "relationship", she will likely continue in the fog of fantasy, and continue to characterize her interactions with him as somehow different and special - which she admits she does. Right now, she says she thinks her relationship with him is somehow less hurtful to you because somehow she believes that being hurt first gives her affair some sort of different status.

By asking for the change in terminology, and by being sure that you also use the correct terminology in your own language regarding your own adultery, you both will likely find that your recovery curve will speed up. The "magic" is stripped away from the

"relationship"

because the truth is exposed each time the more appropriate but "ugly" words are used.

Adultery
Infidelity
Affair

I explain this when I teach about language and learning, about language and cognition and memory. Language and our experiences, our memories and our learning are inextricably linked.

We think about what we talk about; we talk about what we think about.

We also

Remember what we talk about; talk about what we remember.

and then the three hook up:

Remember, think, and talk about the same things, and the three intertwine.

And the terms we use CHARACTERIZE the thoughts are VERY IMPORTANT.

Because how those thoughts are mapped while we think, talk, and remember are how those thougts are entered into our minds and utilized for our world-interactions, now, and into the future. We use those characterizations, however nuanced and subtle, to make quite large and important neurological deposits into our brains.

So, in the banks of your brain, right now, you have a huge deposit to make.

Do you decide to make it in gold bullion, or just plain paper dollars?

Be sure about this point, tst. Because you and SMB can get this

RIGHT

at this point and forward.

With good planning, good thinking, good talking, and calling things what they are. And being really honest about those things.

The truth does not hurt. It is the lies that hurt.

And also, people who do not know what they are talking about. BA, for example, who COULD READ SOME THINGS ON THIS SITE, and perhaps, just perhaps, learn something.

Hope you read this far, BA. You are NOT dealing with an idiot here. Told ya.

SB

I NEVER SAID SHE DID!

What I said was this...."I will suggest..."
in addition to being a first class **** (edited by MEDC)...do you also have problems reading? Or are YOU trying to manipulate?



SMB did in fact ask me to come here and check out your posts to her H...making sure that he weas aware that you might not be qualified to give him decent advice.

TST,
I'm impressed with the progress you guys are making.

I agree about the foggy thinking on your wife's part. Am attending a Divorce Care group in my town; they specifically say repeatedly (my leader and the videos) DO NOT GET INVOLVED during separation and initially after divorce (and why)!!!

NO ONE cheating is expressing "integrity".

You have a right to your feelings as a BS as well as the ones you're expressing as a repentent WS.

Cutting contact is very important, whatever the cost. Perhaps the suggestions above will force OM out and allow you to stay at your church.

Do you guys have a counselor?

Best wishes,
Jenny--
former homeschooler dumped by serial adulterer after 21 years of marriage, in very nasty court battles now. It's ******. Save your marriage.

I contacted Marriage Builders and scheduled a secession for us with Jeniffer Harley this Sunday.
We also have an appointment locally with the counselor of her choice. I'm good with all this!
SMB agreed to change nc letter last night and included "affair" and also dropped the church issue completly as it could never be verified. Our chuch has 4 services and 2500 members. I am not comfortable returning and risking incidental contact, and I also feel it is not OM's burden to bear.

MEDC
Thanks for keeping an eye on me! My wife said you were very blunt at times. I need slammed on occasion, so don't be shy!
Thanks again

you're welcome...and yes, I can be blunt when called for.

Bottom line is, I look at affairs and the damage they do as acute situations needing immediate attention. I figure there's no point [censored] footing around the issues...so, I get right to the point.

Good luck with Jennifer.....and keep up the good work with your wife. She's a good woman and she deserves your support. I agree that the church issue needs to be handled by you and your wife and it is not really the OM's burden. Perhaps he will leave of his own accord at some point.

I hope you look into hiring someone to remove the things from the condo. There really is nothing material there that is worth salvaging since the potential for her triggering over things is great. Find someone that can use the stuff and make sure it goes somewhere that she will never have to see it again. In the whole scheme of things...this is something you can help her with...even if she doesn't ask.

lastly...if you need to email me at any point...feel free. My address is attached to my account here. So, if something comes up that you feel needs a bit more privacy, I will be happy to help you that way as well.

MEDC

I appreciate the suggestion. I may just do that!
My wife and I went over there last night to get some food items and from that moment on her rage throughout the night was so appearent that I had a night from he11.
thanks,

tst,

Triggers are everywhere. And the weird thing is that they can take you back immediately to the pain you felt during the worst of days. Kinda like a favorite song of yesterday. It can bring you back to the exact moment and place you heard it. And the feelings are attached.

When the "movie" starts playing in her head and the images are so vivid, the anger will follow the pain. It is sooooo frustrating to have to continually deal with those rotten emotions. And it's maddening that we have to. They were just thrust upon us. So get rid of anything that you can that will trigger her and yourself as well. The longer you two can stay in a good place during the day, the better.

And tst, when she does trigger, hold her. Tell her you understand why she is hurting at that momment. Reassure her. Don't ignore it as if it's just going to vanish on its own.


A little further into recovery, make it a point to ask her "how she is doing" and this refers to her pain from the A. I found as time went on, my H's direct inquiries stopped, yet I was dealing with this cr*p daily. It was lonely. Like I was left to do the worst of it alone. A month from now, two months from now, ask her. Gauge her progress. Ask her if she'd like to talk. This will help her to feel like you WANT to be a part of her recovery. Every bit of effort from now on will help her to see that you are still there. Working on recovery. In it for the long haul no matter what it takes.

When she gets this way, she completly shuts me out. If I attempt to push in she extends her hand and asks me to get away. She becomes only what I can describe as pure rage. I think it is going to take time before she is capable of accepting reassurance from me when she triggers.
But I won't give up and I am in this whatever it takes.

she will need to let go of the rage and deal with the hurt...otherwise, triggers will become a reason to stall recovery.

I agree, but can do very little other than trying to remove as many triggers as possible. She tells me I have not been there for her pain over the past 6 months, and she has had to learn to do this on her own and that she is not ready to let me in when she is like this. I am going to be patient. I still need all the feedback I can get.

p.s.
I called her a little while ago and suggested we find a way to keep her and I away from the condo and she agreed. I will get help to deal with the items that need removed.

Just make sure you keep her in the loop about how you're going about doing that. For now I think, ANYTHING having to do with "that place" will be a sore spot for her and keeping her informed of how you're getting things accomplished without YOU or HER going back will help her alot.

Ok I get that. I did the same. Just let her know that you are there for her. It's almost impossible to accept loving gestures at times from the one who caused the pain. Acknowledge it anyhow.

tst,
Anger for me was the HARDEST thing to let go of. I learned to control it and learned to "not go there". But it took a good part of 18 months plus to not feel it constantly. And about 6 months not to LB with it. She's gonna feel it and there's like no place to let it go. She will have to learn what works for her. Time. It takes time.

You're doing good.

Lots of time. Just when you think everything's going along great... BOOM, outta no where a trigger appears. It does get easier and less and less though.

I agree... you are doing good. In fact, I think you're doing outstanding.

Find another church. It's simply not worth the risk (W) or the pain (you).


tst, you never answered some of the questions I have. It seems that you really value this church and the time you spent there. Did you attend this church or any church while you were having the affair?

Went with my wife to meet a third party this morning to return a camera she borrowed from OM. Placed NC letter in camera case as I cannot get his current address.
Third party very supportive of both of us and shared that OM wanted me to know he was not returning to our church.
Any thoughts?

Later went, with my wife, to my mothers to make ammends to her for all my lying and deception. The visit went well!

Few weeks from now, this OM might have urges to see your W and he can return. There is a risk for you to return back to this church? Why is returning back to THIS church such a big deal, it's not like you're being asked to change to a different religion.

Why are you avoiding my questions in my prior post?

TST..stay the course. If the OM has said he is leaving the church, I think it is okay to return there so long as the pastor knows of the situation and agrees that there needs to be NC for life. This way, if the OM shows up for some unknown reason....the pastor will already be aware of the issue and possibly even block his access to the church.

TST, regarding my earlier suggestion to you, I hope you are making use of the ignore feature.

counseling with Jeniffer Harley went well last night.
She gave us both a lot of information and a lot of work to do before our next appointment on Sunday.
I will keep you updated when I have some more time.
----Thanks for all the prayers----
Keep them coming!!

I agree with MEDC, especially if you guys are really plugged into this church and are getting fed. Letting the pastor know is a great idea.

We made the joint decision to stay at our church as long as OM stays away. We agreed to share everything with our Pastor so we can recieve his support. We are trusting God and each other in this decision.
Thanks

He seems like a classy guy. It also seems that he will probably not show up at the church. If he does show up, he will probably show up with a mission and plan to win over your wife.

TST...once again I implore you to ignore this bum advisor. A classy guy would not have slept with your wife. Ignore her baiting you...talk to SMB for she has also baited her as well. Bum advisor is one sick little individual.

I second that motion.

I have had BA1 on ignore all along. I hope BA1 gets the hint and stops posting IMMEDIATLY!

No offense taken, but I will continue to post here.

BA why do yo think your advice is "the best " ?

Why bother? It appears that most of whom you prey on have you on ignore, and those of us who don't know you are full of cr*p anyways, and all you are doing is giving us a good laugh.

You MUST have something better to do with your time. Doesn't your hair need washing or something? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Went to visit my wifes attorney today. We sat down and reviewed Post-Nup. agreement. I agreed to sign all assets over to my wife if we ever divorce for any reason other than her own infidelity. I don't intend for our marriage to ever end and I agreed to protect her at all cost, which includes this Post-Nup. I feel very good at this point and I have no reservations about any decisions that can build her trust again.
My wife thanked me. I again apologised to her and reminded her that this was all necessary due to my poor choices and my failure to protect her and our marriage.
We then proceeded to her favorite activity - SHOPPING!
It's been a good day.

Would you have written her the apology letter if you knew in advanced that she was involved? If you knew, what would you have done?

tst,

The previous poster is a troll, probably bestadvisor1. I suggest you ignore this one too.

Wonderful! We haven't heard much from you lately. Was just hoping that all is going well.

It is so nice to hear that it is.

It has been a very busy week, with all the work Jennifer Harley gave us to do, not much time to update anyone.
Things are going well, most of the time exceeding any of my expectations. We are still finding our 15+ hours together and we are paying close attention to protecting each other no matter what.
I was asked by C to read "surviving an affair" and "His needs Her needs" this week and to fill out my emotional needs list. Finishing all this today as we have another appointment tonight.
We also met with our local family C and she was extremly pleased with our families progress.
I still struggle some with sleeping, can't slow my mind down sometimes with all that has happened this past year. I am processing so much information and I recognize it may take a while still to calm my mind.
Wife and I are praying together for each other, hasn't happened in so long that I am getting choked up every time we do.
I have several appointments with close friends next week to make ammends and disclose the details of my A.
Keep praying for SMB and myself, that we stay focused in the here and the now and our recovery.
....and thanks for keeping an eye on me.

TST from your description of your postnup, if your wife gets tired of you and asks for a divorce a year from now, ten years from now, twenty years from now ... you have to give her all your assets? I hope I am misunderstanding.

I don't care how wrong you are or how badly you behaved, you should have taken that document to your own lawyer. To have signed it suggests you have passed all the way through Remorse and well into Self-Hatred.

I am not sure you kept up with my wifes story (SexyMamaBear).
This post-nup was part of her list she put together with the help of many people prior to allowing me back in to her life.
This for me is not about Remore or self-hatred it is about restoring trust and following through with all her requirements. This for me is an act of love.

Pay no attention to that post TST....

stay the course.

tst

Yes this helps her to believe that you will do whatever it takes. You are willing to protect her and your children. That's a huge step.

I'm sure you are getting some very good advice from Jennifer so I'll not attempt to give you any right now. Just know we are here.


One thought though...the first few months of recovery are very intense. Lots and lots of A talk. It seems that it's the only thing either one of you can think about. This will ease. It will get better and easier.


Haven't seen much of SMB here. Let her know she is missed.

God bless.

Great job, tst, just stay the course. You are in good hands with Dr. Chalmers!

TST I peeked over at SMB's a week ago. Long. And it boils down to, you were a complete cad and recidivist.

Let's assume that you were the biggest cad and recidivist on this planet, and you are now the most remorseful, willing to make up for everything you did wrong and then some. You STILL should have had someone on your side of the table looking over the language for pitfalls, pitfalls that maybe your wife had not even intended. And that is a lawyer's function, not to throw their body between you and the dotted line, but to tell you how this will be interpreted under varying future scenarios. Funny, it is usually uncontroversial and uncontested advice, to have the benefit of a lawyer's review, I don't know what to make of the little shriek that came as a result of my post.

If you had inserted a simple clause sunsetting this Sword of Damacles at some point, or amortizing it over the course of a long period of time, would SMB have objected? Probably not, and if she did it would have told you something.



Yes I read about The List. Good that SMB made a list. But were any of the People That Helped looking out for you in particular, or even in passing, even in parenthesis? Certainly they were looking out for her, and even there she engaged a lawyer for advice and write-up.

So..I'll ask again and then I'll shut up, cause it seems I am up against a Handelian chorus telling you how great it is that you are drinking all your Koolaid:

If thirty years from now, SMB turns to you and says, "TST you got old and fat, I want a divorce", do you have to turn over all your assets to her? If that is true, are you still OK with that? Are you OK being a poor old man?

This is a fair question right? Shouldn't there have been some sunsetting provision? Some amortization, albeit long term? Tell me I'm wrong. And don't fault your marriage counselor for not seeing this, this is not his/her job.

People change, years pass and feeling change. All sorts of things can happen over the long term, which is why people hem and haw so much over contract language that is long term

Regards

rabbit

I think a wife that put up with all that SMB put up with has proven herself to be someone that wants this M to work. I don't think that TST had any leverage to change terms or suggest an out as you are saying. Frankly, if she changes and leaves him "poor"...that is a consequence of his actions since they are what precipitated the post nup.
I'm sure that TST and SMB do not see things as you do right now...and I am thankful for that. For if TST would have taken the advice you are now offering, their M surely would not have recovered.
I suggested a 80/20 or 75/25 split due to circumstances. But bottom line is, TST created an environment where SMB was able to rightly dictate the terms for her remaining in the M. I say TST is a lucky, lucky man and that SMB did what she should have done to protect herself moving forward.

Yes, this is a fair question. I don't consider this a wrong question! And having studied law, I have a very good understanding of what I am doing, and my wife knows this, which is why she never thought I would ever consider this. Her security is also the one area of our marriage that caused her great fear. She knew I would be a broken and changed man if I were ever to agree to such a request.
I even laid out my willingness to give full custody of our children as a condition ....and this frightens me far more than money ever would.... she said she wouldn't ask me to do that.
To answer your qustion am I willing to be a poor old man?
Yes!
Am I willing to turn over all assets to her if she wants out later?
Yes!
It truly is an act of love for me.
I do appreciate your questioning and I do consider your questions to be fair and deserving of a little more detail from me.
I hope you see where I am in this is where I want to be.
thanks,

********************************edit**********************

Window 90 -

sounds like you know alot about SMB and myself for only being registered for five days as a junior member. Care to explain who you were registered as prior to this week.

I really don't appreciate your Love Busting comments - they appear designed to be attacking our Recovery.

Maybe you could do some reading about MB's before feeling qualified to comment

***********************edit*******************

Window90,

I don't understand your motives here.

You post nice encouraging words to me, and then post this [email]cr@p[/email] to my H.

We are working hard to recover our marriage--which happens to be the whole point of MBers. What you have posted here in no way helps us in that. The only point to your post was to discourage tst, which only causes more grief in a situation where this is already enough to go around.

Please leave us alone.

I often hear people say "When life hands you lemons, make lemonaid!"

I get kind of tired of hearing some things over and over, but sometimes it's good to stop and think.......

If you two want to be happy, what else can you do at this point?

There are things that you used to have, that you don't have any more. (Trust is one) However, you still have great blessings. Sometimes, (Especially when the bad parts get to you) it's good to think on what you do have.

SS

SMB and TST...I am going to make a suggestion to the both of you here. When you see anyone here attack or demean either one of you at this critical stage in your recovery...especially a newcomer, I would STRONGLY suggest that you immediately put the poster on ignore.

There is no reason to listen to the vitriol of a new poster that obviously does not have the best interest of your marriage at heart.

In reality, do you really expect this person to add anything to your recovery? I don't. So, focus forward and ignore the ignorance of this poster.

tst-

What I see is a man who is willing to do whatever it takes to help heal the damage he has done in his M. The thing is, "doing whatever it takes" is "whatever it takes." It will be different in every M. No one can define it for you and SMB.

As far as your motives for what you are doing-only God can truly judge the motives of your heart.

But, your actions show true repentance which is defined as turning away from the past behavior.

Ps.51:17 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise."

I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

You also are working towards restoring your M. Part of that is restitution-"repaying" as it were-what you have destroyed and/or taken from the relationship.


"Being confident of this, that He who began this good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6

Hang in there

exactly

TST - I think you are doing a great job. I am SO GLAD you came home early and comforted SMB the way you did. It's obvious how much that meant to her.

As a FWS, I will tell you it will take a while to earn SMB's trust again, but it will be VERY worthwhile.

Hang in there!

Post Deleted by Observing75


Observing75 aka Observing76

hey a-hole...the questions were already deleted. Why be disrespectful to Justuss and TST by continuing.

This poster was banned for trolling under Observer75, which is why he set up another user name. I will let Justuss know.

Justuss...these are the same questions you locked a thread over for Observing75...now he/she comes back as Observing76 and reposts the same thing!

Thanks Guys

Oooops. My wife is logged in and I am posting as SMB instead of tst.

The "Thanks Guys" was by tst.

tst, you obviously saw the questions and it's also obvious that you don't want to respond either due to the fact that you think it's unfair or other reasons. With that being said, I'll delete it.

Observing75 aka Observing76

Its me this time, logged in correctly.

Just a quick update.
Everything is going great, counseling has been great, SMB has been great and I am so full of gratitude that it just overflows.

We are NOT pressing forward by looking behind.
We are pressing forward by looking ahead.
It is amazing how God makes all things new, everyday.

Thanks for watching over SMB and me and for praying for us.

I am looking for links to some of YOUR stories to get to know each of you a little better. Some of the stories I have been reading have brought me to tears of sadness and others tears of joy. But I welcome all.

Now, you're just trying to make me feel bad for asking you tough questions, aren't ya?

You should feel bad for trolling these ppl and for coming back after you were banned.

tst, I am so glad you have been so devoted and dedicated to work on your marriage during the past month. You're truly lucky to have a wife like SMB and I'm sure you have great kids too due to their mother's influence.

I hope you will continue doing what you have been doing during the past month.

you again.

TROLL.

Isn't there some way to keep this creature off the boards? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

tst, once again, I'm not targeting you contrary to what others might think. Now, I REALLY believe that you've changed and I hope things continue to improve between you and SMB, I really do!

Your story is one of the very few success stories that we see here at this board and your continue update will at least bring hope to the others who desperately in need of some during the bad times.

BA1

Go away!

Justuss, Best Advisor is seeking out these posters again. Please step in.

Best Advisor, you have been asked to leave these people alone.

You really haven't been here long enough to make that statement, have you?

AND if you REALLY want to change your rep as a troll, then don't EVER post to my FWS again and start STUDYING MB concepts so that your posts one day can reflect some knowledge about them.

SMB and TST

Just wanted to pop in to send my best to both of you during the holidays. Sometimes it can get tough. Oh and I wanted to tell you both that you have BEAUTIFUL children! (I'm sure you knew that) They are gorgeous and I see where they get it from.

So sorry about the trolls...just ignore them.

All the best.

Thanks, MicheleG. It is good to hear from you. You were so helpful to me (SMB).

Holidays will be tough, not because of us, just all the "other" people.

I have avoided posting on my thread for a while TO AVOID BA hoping she would fade away. So I have missed hearing from you.

SMB, don't worry about that, from now on, I won't say anything on your post, unless it's constructive or encouraging. You two are doing great and I hope you'll continue to do great. I really mean it!

How about not posting on my thread AT ALL or on tst's?

I have plenty of encouragement already, so you can skip that one. And as far as contructive, I haven't seen you post anything contructive yet. So why start now?

Is there anything you offer to us that is so invaluable that you must ignore our repeated requests that you leave us alone?

There are plenty of KNOWLEDGEABLE people here helping us. They really have been BEST ADVISORS.