Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Road,

I posted to you on EN with regard to questionnaires, but the bottom line is that the early recovery process can be extremely difficult. I don't often suggest it as a do-it-yourself project. So call the Harley's and get into counseling.

Is your husband pitching in at all to help get to recovery? Has he answered all your questions? Has he explained how he could so easily take a chance on losing his wife and family? Or better yet, does he have a plan to keep it from happening again in the future?

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Is your husband willing to (enthusiastic about) working on a self-study plan using MB materials?

You can always phone Steve H and see if he'll use my rate (or frankly, ask for a discounted rate). I was a bit PO'ed my wife didn't start her affair earlier---I would have been at the $45/session rate instead of the $60/session rate. I see it's gone up a bit! (He's still worth every penny...)

RU,

You could call into the Harley's Radio show and ask your question(s) also. Just an idea.

I bumped the thread for you. But here's the info.

[color:"blue"]Thursday December 27th or Friday December 28th:

Call-in 888-606-1776 [/color]

Jo

What does he give you for a reason............?

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Well, that is quite common actually. And sometimes the OW IS manipulative and DOES threaten to expose to the wife. But that doesn't explain why he did it in the first place.

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Are you certain the affair wasn't the reason for the separation?

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Often the affair is already started, but they cover it up, but who knows?

Is he putting any effort into recovery?

RU,

I am so sorry you are hurting. I completely understand your feelings as does everyone else on here. You are so not alone.

I have no expertise in this whatsoever to offer, except I care that you are in pain and are keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

All I can do to get through those most horrible feelings is pray and look to G-d for strength and FAITH. FAITH that one day I will recover completely and BELIEF, that my M will be restored to something that I can't even imagine at this point.

I also come here and hope that I can either offer some warmth and caring to someone or read it from someone else.

Bracha

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

You are doing great. Keep listening to the experts on here and you can't go wrong.

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

What was it about his answers about his top emotional needs that upset you?

Hi,

Has your reading included SAA, HNHN & LMBT? How familiar are you with plans A & B?

Your H isn't with you in recovery....not yet.

Either way, you should get a plan. Finish plan A (read the concepts section above, SAA), learn how to communicate with a man (HNHN) and then if he still is stuck on 'stupid' (maintaining the WS mentality), then read LMBT (Dobson) to learn how to implement a good plan B.

Fow now, regardless of what he does, you will learn HOW to move forward. If and when he decides to get on board the recovery plan, you will be ready to lend a hand.

Realize it isn't as hard for you as him but you will have your own stages of grief to go through along with your personal recovery.

There are also several other points to consider:

1. Create your personal support group (include your children). Be a part of their support group as well.
2. Secure your finances
3. Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience
4. Get MC for yourself and IC for your children as needed
5. Know that your mind and heart must be in sync before you can implement plan B.
6. Understand the plans and how each needs to be intergrated into your situation.

There's more, that's for a start.

Post as needed.

take care,
L.

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

I am talking about once the real recovery starts. You are hurt now but when the real recovery starts he will have to move forward to where you are now. So in reality he will have it harder once real recovery starts.

As for now, it is hard for you since you want to believe you are in recovery but from what you posted, it appears you are and he isn't.

So would you like some assistance in helping you get a plan for you to move forward whether or not he does? This plan can also be used to show him the way to recover but that will only work when HE is ready to shed his WS skin.

L.

The WS will always see the OP as better than the BS. However, your real H knows better.

The WS in my case at first said the OW was pretty, now to my H she is ugly. The difference is the character you are dealing with.

It may be helpful if you learn to distinguish when the WS is babbling vs your real H talking.

It hurt me also to hear that my H who turned WS liked OW. It hurt a lot. Made me feel unworthy.

Learning t/d a good plan A, secured my stance in me. I knew who and what I was, wanted and needed. I knew what I looked like and was capable of. When the WS would try to accuse me of stuff or let the OW call me chunky, a wife abuser, a lesbian or a child abuser...... I knew better.

See you have to consider the source of the babble and then decide if it is worth your listening to or basing your decisions upon.

When you do that, the anger will be come more manageable and you will be able to handle things better.

Believe me, it will get better for you. Not for the WS, but for you.

take care,
L.

RU,

Listen to what Orchid is telling you.

NO, the hurt we feel isn't fair. But life isn't fair.

I HATE what is happening in my life. I HATE that the man I trusted with my life so thoughtlessly threw me away for a crack addict.

BUT - they are NOT our HUSBAND'S. The are creatures who hurt people. I guess for me, the bottom line, is I LOVE MY HUSBAND and I KNOW HE LIVES DEEP INSIDE.

I don't want my pride, what's fair or not fair, ruin what chances I have for marriage restoration. Our WS one day will have to answer to a higher authority. It will happen.

Look at how graciously you can walk through this with your head held high and your LIFE is PUT BACK TOGETHER even better than before. Please, please don't get caught up in the unfairness, the anger. It will only HURT YOU in the end.

Listen to the vets who are offering their words of wisdom. You can MAKE it, you really can. I am STILL so in the middle, but I KNOW, one day, one day it will be ok. And the knife will be stopping at my heart instead of inside it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Hi Road,

I'm on my way to work, I have read your post and will reply later today. We can talk about real recovery vs sweeping it under the rug syndrome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L

RoadUntraveled - in all those books you've read, have you read Torn Asunder by Dave Carder?

There is a very good discussion of the timelines involved in Recovery in that book, and the stages that each of you "go through."

You should also know that the AVERAGE recovery "timeframe" is 2 years in length. My own took almost 6 years. But it takes commitment, endurance, work, and hope.....to get started and to continue through all the "ups and downs" encountered along the way.





What is "missing," perhaps more than anything else, is a lack of "focus." It appears from what you have written that you spend a lot of time "worrying" about the future.

You "get through" recovery "one day at a time." All you can do is handle the challenges of each day, and only the challenges of THIS day, one day at a time. In DOING what is necessary for each day, you WILL build the future you are hoping for and "avoid" the future you are worrying about.

I don't know if you and your husband are believers, but if you are, there is MUCH help in applying what God has commanded to your lives and to your current situation.


God bless.

Forever, some awesome words to live by.

One Day At A Time. You can't change the past, tomorrow doesn't exist and you can only do what you can today.

RU,

I think staying focused is an excellent way of looking at it. Often times, Mimi and many others remind me this is a war, made up of many battles. In war, you win some battles and you lose battles, but it's those losses that make you stronger and help you to learn how to win the ultimate war.

Some of those battles are minute by minute within myself just to not blow my brains out, literally. And some of those battles are with the WH. And some of those battles are within me to fight NOT TO GIVE UP. And for me, most of the battles are figuring out how to personally recover and save my M with G-d's help.

I can only speak of the pain and suffering that I live with each and every day. My WH is living with someone who made HIM CHOOSE between me or her. Which looking back on it, was brilliant. He was so addicted that there was NO CHOICE for him. He HAD TO HAVE his FIX of her.

I live with the fact that anytime they could be having SF my H could be getting hep C and killing himself. And there is NOTHING I can do. I live with the reality that everytime WH is in control and I have the misfortune of being unprepared my heart is ripped in half ONE MORE TIME.

When I was actively drinking and drugging, and in my dry drunk, I can tell you that I DID things that even though I knew they were wrong, I HAD to do it. There was a RUSH to doing the wrong, which fed on itself.

Ultimately though and what keeps me going day after day after day, is to remember one day at a time, and asking G-d what he wants me to do. I believe I am to stand for my M, so that G-d can work his miracle and heal my family completely one day.

What your H did was awful and hurtful and selfish and every other thing that you are feeling. You have a right to the those feelings and more. But I realized that in time, this pain would fade and I would regret not fighting my hardest for my H and my M. Is this easy, NO WAY. Is this fair, you bet not.

But it is what it is, and this is a wonderful opportunity for you to put your FAITH and TRUST in G-d and know that in the end, G-d will turn this into good, somehow some way.

I don't have the wisdom that the vets do on how to do the different plans. I have the FAITH that I am on this WEBSITE because G-d wanted me here to help me walk through this with you and all the others and that one day, you and I will be a source of strength and comfort to those who come after us.

You have what you need to get through this. You have G-d. There is none else, but his steadfast love on you.

Skins

RU,

I was thinking you were near the 6th or 7th month in Recovery...and I went back to your first post and realize...you're only at not even two months from DDay.

Lots of deep hurt and anger.

It's not going to stop overnight...and I know you know that. Sure wish it would.

You've had great posters on your threads, lots of great advice...and when I saw this thread come up in Recovery, I thought of you.

Hope it helps: Wasntaboutme's thread

LA

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Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

RU, you are not going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly not hurt. There is nothing that anyone can say to you today that will cause you to stop hurting immediately.

You do realize that, don't you?

If you had been physically assaulted at the level of emotional assault that you have received - although I'm sure you would still want to stop hurting, you would also most likely understand that the pain will not stop nor will your strength return immediately.

Things aren't much different here. In the same way that the hospital personnel push you to get out of bed and start shuffling down the hall long before you want to or feel ready to, because they know that each day you get up and do a *little* something to strengthen those wounded bones and muscles - getting through each day while taking a few shuffling emotional steps will help strengthen you in the same way. That's what folks here are trying to get you to see.

Your emotional pain is not going to instantly dissipate. Your options are to stay in the emotional hospital bed while your muscles atrophy and you continue to lose strength, or you can drag yourself up for a short time each day and get through that day.

And the next day.

And then the next.

Making choices. Maybe just one choice initially that will move you an inch or two further down the road to healing.


If it is too much for you to get over, you will then make a choice as to what to do next. Life doesn't hand us any guarantees. Are you going to insist that you should be given a one?

Going back to that physical assault example. You may find that you will have to walk with a cane. You may find that when it rains, your parts hurt. OTOH, some people come back *stronger* after a physical attack because the physical rehab work and effort results in them being stronger and healthier than they were before.


Why were you separated?



In whom did you place your hope? Your husband?

Your goal cannot stop at wishing that the pain would stop.

It might not be fair, or pleasant, but your goal will have to include *working* at making yourself stronger so that the pain is no longer totally incapacitating to you.

Well, I HATE the whole phsical attraction thing.......

I KNOW that some people have that need, but I would not feel good having SF with someone who was NOT attracted to me.

My ex's OW was 20 years younger than I, and beautiful and tiny.

And the funniest thing is my ex gained weight throughout our marriage. He was about 260 pounds when he started his affair. I should have been relieved not to have him sweating and gasping on top of me.

The BS is not responsible for the A but may have contributed to the demise of the M and R.

Based on that, the BS can learn how to repair that deficiency and move forward. Plan A helps in that regard. If your H is still a WS AFTER you have completed your plan A and your heart and mind are in sync, then plan B is a good option. Why? It helps you get control back of your life and gives the WS back their guilt.

Right now you are in anguish, you are frustrated and somewhat in shock. You want a solution but an instant solution is not available.

If you give us a chance, we can share what has helped us. If you want to hear more gory stories, you will hear about them and then some. This along with the recommended reading and MC counseling from Steve, Jennifer @MB or a good MC familiar with MB concepts will help.

Once your WS sheds his WS skin and works t/b coming your H again (hopefully a better H), then your recovery or healing must begin. Go read what I posted to MVG. I put several links in that thread which may be helpful.

A BS goes through various stages, which I call the 5 stages of grieving. I believe the link to that thread is in MVG's thread.

Here's the link: MVG's thread.....a question for Orchid

Read up and let us know if you have any further questions.

take care,
L.

Post deleted by RoadUntraveled

Hi Road,

I've not posted to you before that I can recall. I completely understand where you are right now. I didn't discover MB and the Forum until just about 15 months past dd.

I was in the same place you are right now then. Affair over, NC. Heck my FWH was relieved to be rid of OW.

But the pain and hurt left over from the lies and betrayal, that lingers. And lingers, and lingers.

Like you, I just wanted it to be over, wanted to stop remembering it, I wanted to wake up just one morning and not have it be the first conscious thought that I had.

My FWH just wanted me to forget about it. It was a mistake, he was sorry that he ever did it, end of discussion.

It took me so long to get to the point where I ACCEPTED that no matter what he did, he couldn't change the past.

It took even longer for him to ACCEPT that I was never going to forget and that sometimes, even now after 4 years, it makes me sad.

I know that you don't want to hear that it takes time, but those of us who have been thru this would be lying to you if we told you that there was some magic pill or potion that was going to take away your pain.

Building a better, affair proof marriage helps. Knowing wih certainty that there is NC helps, having your FWS at least trying to show a smidge of understanding that for you, this WAS the worst thing that has ever happened to you, and THEY did it. THEY caused this horrible pain.

But, the reality here is that even with all of the above, it still takes a long, long time for the pain to dull.

I don't feel the pain anymore. I don't wake up thinking about FWH "with" the OW. But, still, deep down inside, there is a sense of sadness that still exists. Mostly, I choose to ignore it and focus on what is good in my life, but sometimes, it gushes to the surface and I find myself with tears in my eyes.

Who

((((RU))))

Your description of h wanting you to move on because the affair is over with indicates that his thinking process is still clouded by the A. This is the reason it was recommended you read up on the Plans A and B.

Let me share with you that my H said the same words to me and many others here have heard the same words from their WS's. The A and B plans are more for protecting the BS from further damage by the WS. It puts the BS into a place of power and control over her/his own life because it gives a plan for getting through the pain of the betrayal while keeping one's dignity intact.

As far as what you should be doing, I say you should be looking out for the best interests of yourself and your children. You personally are dealing with all the stress and grief that comes with betrayal and the loss of the M as you've known it. So my first advice is to look-up the stages of grief and see what emotions you personally will be dealing with. I've used www.coping.org for a lot of info. It has the "tools for handling loss" including working on anger, etc.

Please journal your feelings. This can be the most effective form of recovering, whether you stay in the M or not. It lets you get your feelings out and records your perspectives. Journaling gives you something concrete to gauge your progress with.

Also, since your H is still foggy from the A, you might want to "write" what you have to say to him in letters, vs "talking" to him about it. Reading about a person's pain and struggles can have a profound impact on some people (esp those with intimacy issues) because it provides a safe zone. Many BS's fighting for their M's have written their questions and to their WS's, and had the WS respond in kind. It takes the pressure off to say "the right thing" in the moment during a discussion and allows time for introspective, honest replies.

My second piece of advice is to ask yourself what you want and expect for your M and from your H from this point on. What do you want from yourself? I know the "what do you want from yourself" may seem like a strange question, but it is very important since your not certain whether you even want to be M to H or not.

I can honestly say, most BS's feel the very same feelings toward their WS's in the early stages (and some even later) after finding out about the A. To many of us, if we stay with our betrayer, then we are betraying ourselves because we "would never tolerate cheating".

Answering the "what do I want from myself" helped me see the healthy boundaries and actions I want to have so I maintain strong relationships. It allowed me to give my M a second chance. I know that I won't allow myself to to be fully invested in my M and let my H slide without being the same. From myself, I want a price for my H to be M to me, and that's for his full investment in the M too. I'm not saying that he has to be perfect, because I'm not either. But I expect us to be working on building our M and building up each other for the rest of our marriage.


As far as placing your hope in our Heavenly Father, I'm glad that you're doing this. Our heavenly father wants the best for us. He wants you to love Him and give Him the glory. His ultimate desire is you and your H to have a strong, solid, loving M that glorifies Him (His desire for every valid M). He wants your children to be happy and healthy and strong in the Lord. This is why you place your hope in Him. Because He truly wants the best for you and loves you.

I'm not saying He expects you to stay or not stay in the M at this point. This is something you and H have decide because you know the circumstances and reality of the M.

I felt let down by God following my dday, but I came to realize that He was hurting to from it. I understand now that while He wanted what was best for me and my H, we made free-will choices that locked God out from having what He desires too.

Hang in there, RU, and know that you're loved!

Jewel

RoadUntraveled - I have neither the time nor the patience to help someone who does not seem to want help. So I'll keep this very brief.

If you read that chapter in Torn Asunder and came away feeling that you are guilty for your husband's affair, then you didn't READ, or at least didn't read with comprehension. Furthermore, no MB help is going to help you either, because it is based on Emotional Needs and the impact that meeting them or not meeting them can have on a marriage that creates a "climate" where one or both of the spouses "feels" that they need to look outside of the marriage to get a particular Emotional Need met, or several EN's.

Let's get one thing perfectly clear, you did NOT "drive" your husband to have an affair anymore than I drove my wife to have an affair. The CHOICE to have an affair is 100% the responsibility of the Wayward Spouse.

But if you are not willing to look at your own "contributions" to the marital atmosphere that contributed to his feeling that he couldn't "get what he needed" from you, then NOTHING will change and it's a waste of time to try to "coach" you through the process.

While we understand you are angry, perhaps even angry at the world, over your husband's betrayal, unless you are willing to do "your part" in the recovery process there is nothing that anyone here can say or do to help you.

Recovery is NOT "Fair" and it's NOT "easy." It's HARD.

But YOU are in control of the recovery and you are in control of how it progresses or doesn't progress. If you are unwilling to make changes in yourself that might be needed, then what reason will your husband have for trying to meet YOUR needs?

That chapter in Torn Asunder was speaking specifically about "Class II" involved affairs. If your husband was in a class II affair, you might want to reread the chapter, and the entire book for that matter, as it predominantly deals with Class II affairs.

And if you don't think that a Wayward Spouse who is attempting to end an affair and recover a marriage with the Betrayed Spouse has PAIN, then you have much to learn about "their side" of the recovery process.

You took a part of a paragraph out of context to justify your anger and outrage. What the context of that paragraph said was:

"Showing empathy and understanding for the infidel's pain is not justification of his behavior. It is not being "soft" on the person who has acted inappropriately, and it is not overlooking the sin of adultery - it is simply a way to keep the infidel in the process of recovery. There will be a time in the future to confront the sin and deal with the guilt. Now is the time for understanding, not condemnation." (Torn Asunder, p. 144, emphasis added)

On MB a similar thought is expressed in "Plan A" behaviors for the Faithful Spouse.

But all of that ASSUMES you want to save your marriage and recover it and the love you both want for each other.

IF you don't want to recover it and to do what is necessary TO recover, then you also have the option for divorce. And the "responsibility" for a divorce would NOT be 50/50 either. It would be ACCEPTANCE of his choice to end the marriage when he CHOSE adultery as the "way" to handle marital problems.

I hope you really think about this and what you really want.

This message has been brought to you by the numbers "2" and "4" and the letter "N"erf.




One last thought about medicines being available to handle the pain of surgery, etc. There are also medicines available to help with the mental and emotional pains caused by adultery. They are called Anti-anxiety and Anti-depression medications. You might want to check with your doctor for a prescription. They will help you to level out the emotional swings and be able to think and act rationally, which is important if you are going to attempt to work through these very trying times of beginning recovery.

Road,

U have been getting some good support from these posters. For communication problems, I recommend reading His Needs/Her Needs by Dr Harley. He actually shows the different communication styles between men vs women. Wow.....understanding that point helped me.

My H still doesn't communicate well but he is learning (stubborn kinda guy, makes learning slow - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). I have learned how to get my point across to him most times. It isn't easy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

READ THE ABOVE POSTS AGAIN....... THEY ARE GOOD AND THEN READ THE BOOK. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

RU,

You want a path to recovery, steps to take.

First off, with all due respect to MamaJewel, Plan A and Plan B are very different plans.

Plan A is a plan designed to put the BS in the best light before the WS, and to show the best of the BS to the WS. It is usually put into action when the WS is actively in an affair, and meant to make the WS see the good parts of the BS whenever possible. It can also be used during the recovery process, especially during the withdrawal period of recovery, by the BS so that the returning spouse can begin to view the BS as attractive and endearing again.

Plan B is a plan used when the affair is currently active, and the BS cuts off all communication with the WS in order to break up the affair. It would not be in order in your case.

Some step-by-step plans for you:

1. I would implement a Plan A. Your husband appears to be in withdrawals, and still somehow fantasizes that the OW is somehow better and wonderful. (You get that information from him in how he is answering the ENQ. Please be assured that he is responding this way only to assuage his own guilt, to try to remain somehow faithful to her and keep the affair fantasy alive, and also to keep hurting you because if he does that it keeps him "right" in doing what he did. This will fade, given NC and time. Give it the time, it will pass, hang in there.)

2. Work hard at spending 15 hours together, without pushing about the relationship or affair-talk. This is going to be hard for you, but do it. Make dates together, hire a babysitter if you have to. Go somewhere, even if it is only for a walk in the park, play frisbee, go fishing, whatever. You do not have to spend money, but spend TIME together. THE IMPORTANT THING YOU NEED TO REMEMBER IS THAT THIS IS NOT RELATIONSHIP TALK TIME.

3. I will bump my communications thread for you regarding how to talk with him about the affair. If you want to talk about the affair, you are going to have to make it safe, and make the talks loving and short. No marathons, keep it to one topic, and stay in the rules.

4. Review yourself. Ask yourself some clear questions about what your own contributions were in terms of emotional needs and meeting them were. Since he is reluctant to take the ENQ honestly, then do it for him - take the ENQ yourself and pretend you are him. Start meeting the top ENs as you have identified them, and do the best you can. Don't talk about it, just do it.

5. Read up on love busters. STOP doing those you identify in yourself.

6. Understand this major rule: You control only ONE person in this relationship - YOURSELF. Do that. Focus on what you are doing, every day, and control how you react, how you act, and what you are doing to move the marriage forward that one day. Think about what you say and do before you do it, and ask yourself, "Is this going to move the marriage in a good and strong direction?" before you do it. If the answer is "yes", then go ahead.

7. Know that this recovery process is a roller coaster ride. You will have ups and downs. You did not buy this ticket, but you are on the ride. And know also that even if you decide to divorce, the ride's the same - you will still need to get over the affair, so divorce doesn't make it go away.

8. He will have his days, too. Sometimes, your "real" husband will poke his head out and you will see him. Other times, that "wayward" man will be there. You might want to run, you might want to stay, depending on which guy you're talking to. There's a saying on MB, "Plan A your husband, Plan B the wayward." What that means is that when he is acting like you want him to act, reinforce him with loving actions and loving kindness. When he's acting like a jerk, say nothing, stay calm, and don't feed the fire. No love-busters, nothing.

9. Know that he IS going through his own stages of recovery from the affair, and that it is NOT the same as yours. He will withdraw, and he will feel a certain loyalty at first. Then, he will realize his actions, and guilt will set in. He will break down and come to you in pain and shame. It will happen. Things do change, but the timing is just different. Following the Plan A, no lovebusters, etc., helps you.

10. Continue to spy on him, without letting him know. It is important to be sure that his word is carried out, because it is often the case that they SAY no contact is in place, when they relapse. You should be prepared for some attempts at contact before the real NC takes hold. Watch him, and bust him as necessary. He needs to be watched, because it can be like quitting cigarettes - it's hard to do cold turkey. It's worth watching him. Don't feel guilty for doing this.

11. He needs to turn over all passwords and email information, all cellphone information, and you need to watch his cellphone details as well. He should give this willingly, so you can feel safe. He needs to understand that this is important to you.


I hope this helps. There isn't a cookie-cutter for recovery, but you are at a great place for help.

SB

Thank you to those who tried to help me. I see there are those on every board that just have to kick those that are already down, though.

Guess I don't know what I am looking for.

Before you go, RU, would you please share with us where you felt kicked? I don't see it...and I'd appreciate knowing.

LA

I think she felt hurt by the "I have neither the time nor the patience" statement by FH.

RU,

If you don't like what one poster says, you don't have to leave. Just read everything, and take in what works for you. Know that FH is here to try to help, like everyone else. It is in your interest to read everything, because even if you don't like what you hear, the words might spur your thoughts onto something that works for you.

Right now, you are in a phase that hurts like nothing else. There is a long time in recovery that feels like there is no way that the pain is going to fade, that nothing will make it go away. You feel as though nothing can take your mind off of what has happened, and you don't think you will ever get through the pain and devastation.

You will get through.

I posted some steps to take, and if you start taking them, you will get through.

I also want you to start reading a book that seemed to work for me, that isn't often recommended here, but does show up from time to time. It's called "After the Affair". For some reason, it resonated with me more than "Surviving the Affair".

Also, the Dr. Phil book "Relationship Recovery" was actually pretty good, in that it has some really good and practical activities in it for personal introspection work. You might want to look at it. It helped me focus myself onto things that were more on ME, and not so much on the affair.

Don't leave, don't feel kicked. When you think that others are kicking you, just confront it, say so, and let them know it hurt. Be more proactive here, we can take it. You are here to grow, and we can help you.

Stick around, we will help you through this.

SB

That may be, schoolbus, but WE are not responsible for her "feelings." We are here to try to help DESPITE the feelings, as any Betrayed Spouses know all too well what the "feelings" are like. The fact of the matter is that there ARE "too many" people on the system who are looking for help and that successfully helping someone DOES take a lot of time and patience. In choosing who we help or don't help, we "evaluate" BOTH our own available time and where we think it can best be invested.

I see that she has deleted all her posts. Interesting that she "learned" how to do that and learned how to run away from the "help" that she claimed to want. But it's more likely that she just wanted some people to "empathize" (meaning sympathize and "identify" rather than show empathy) with her and NOT tell her what she might need to do IF her intent was to recover her marriage.

The REALITY is that not one of us is "responsible" for her marriage, her husband's infidelity, or her recovery. We DONATE our time and energy to try to help, knowing full well that in many cases our help will not be "taken."

She had nothing but objections to post to anything anyone suggested, but my post to her "stands." Others can choose to help those who will not help themselves, but I was being quite truthful with her. If SHE doesn't want (it's NOT a case of "ability," it's a case of her choosing to not want to) to address whatever it was in her marriage that her husband PERCEIVED as his lack of fulfilment within their marriage that gave him "justification" to look outside of the marriage, then there is not much that can be done for either BS or WS as long as they choose DENIAL as "all they want to hear."

Perhaps she will come back when she is ready, perhaps not. it IS her marriage and her husband already chose to end the marriage when he engaged in adultery. If she'd like to "blame" me or anyone else on the system for her marriage or her "recovery" falling apart, she can do that....just like her husband "blamed" her for "forcing" him to seek another woman. But it's HER choice, not ours. It IS our time and energy that is GIVEN free of charge (and she did also complain about the cost of counseling as another reason not to seek help). She can choose to take, evaluate, and/or use any help that is offered, but I will not be responsible for her CHOICES, nor should anyone else.

Your encourgement to her is good and praiseworthy. But I don't think she will "listen" to you either. She is either in too much pain right now to "hear" anything but her own thoughts or she is choosing to run away from reality. I don't think she was "gaming the system," but is, sadly, a "case in point" of the devastating effects on a Betrayed Spouse and how everything that a Betrayed Spouse "believed in" winds up being called into question. I think she is in the "deep emotional pit" that all BS's find themselves and does not want to take any of the "ropes" that have been tossed down to her and choose to CLIMB out of the pit with the assistance of those who are holding the ropes firmly for her.

Unfortunate. But not all marriages will survive infidelity, and certainly not if BOTH spouses won't WORK at recovery efforts and make needed changes in themselves.

Thank you to you for "Trying." Keep on doing so, as I know you will. One of the "hardest" lessons for us to learn about trying to help others is that in some cases "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him(her) drink."

God bless.

For what it's worth, RU deleted her posts but the help that was offered has helped ME. I wanted to tell ALL who posted here that.

I think probably this is the best assessment of RU's situation:
She is either in too much pain right now to "hear" anything but her own thoughts or she is choosing to run away from reality. I don't think she was "gaming the system," but is, sadly, a "case in point" of the devastating effects on a Betrayed Spouse and how everything that a Betrayed Spouse "believed in" winds up being called into question. I think she is in the "deep emotional pit" that all BS's find themselves

Hopefully after some time away, some BS denial accepted,she will find herself ready for some 'hard truths' and ready to recover her marriage.

Thank you ALL for your honesty on this thread especially, I deeply appreciate your time and input, hopefully she will eventually too.

RU,

All of us BS have been in that deep emotional pit. We have walked through the same agony you are experiencing. We have had the same disbelief, the same deep confusion, the same shock, the same grief and sorrow. You are not alone.

You CAN get through this devastation and reach the other side. It is easier when those who have walked it are by your side. I hope you will return to posting.

FH,

Please help others. The kind of "help" you are offering is helping me very little.

I have been on message boards before...learning how to delete a post doesn't take a Doctorate degree. Anyone who knows how to use a keyboard can manage.

And funny how you "know" so much about my situation. No one here knows the half of it!!! I refrain from giving out too much personal information, as it tends to come back to bite me in the end.

This post will be deleted, but here is it all laid out:

I am a stay at home mother and have ziltch in the way of earning potential at this time.

My husband walked out last November - our marriage was rocky. He began sleeping with OW. He came back in February and I specifically asked about this woman and told him I would understand if something happened while we were apart. He denied it and then went back to her...during a reconciliation attempt. (I have frequented message boards before...and during our separation I posted on a major divorce board about my fears of he and this OW. He made me feel guilty about this from the get-go; even said his OW was mad that I wanted to get checked for STDs because I didn't know when the affair began and whether she could have given him something that he passed to me.)

I have 5 children now with my husband. The major surgery last month I spoke of was a c-section. My husband was having his affair while I was pregnant with our FIFTH child!!! I was working overtime to meet his needs!!! I was lucky enough to find out about the affair just 23 days before my baby's birth...

We are in counseling...and I stated we cannot afford MORE counseling charges. I am seeking "help".

You are right - I am in a pit. I am so sad right now I cannot describe it. I feel that my whole marriage was a sham and I fear the love for my husband is gone. I question whether he ever loved me...or whether he loves me now or is just with me out of some twisted sense of guilt. Some times I hate him, other times I just don't know what I feel.

All I have been asking for is some concrete steps to take. School Bus has given that to me somewhat...but I admit, I don't do well with anything that doesn't have a "set in stone" set of directions and timeline. I have always been like that...and I'm sorry if that "offends" you or makes you feel I truly am not seeking help.

Please feel free to bash me again. I think I am at the bottom and nothing is lower.

Hang in there RU. I'm so sorry that your hubby decided to do this while you were pregnant! But you aren't alone. We have had many others here that went through it and came out with happy marriages.

Will he agree to write a no contact letter to the OW?

Not a problem, RU. I will leave you to those things you want to hear.

But if you think that we "don't understand," the perhaps you don't know us very well either.

If you want to withhold information, just how do you "expect" people to be able to "understand" your situation anyway? Because you've your husband committed adultery? Guess what, THAT "situation" is NOT "unusual" around here and those of us who have faced that situation in our own lives DO "understand."

You have been offered sympathy from many. You have been offered suggestions and advice by several. What you choose to accept is the sympathy. All I am saying is that at some point you need to pick yourself up out of the justifiable "pity party" that resulted from the emotional shock of the betrayal and choose to ACT, to DO something positive that may help you recover your marriage...IF that is what you want to do. If it is not, you also have the option of divorcing and NOT reconciling with your husband.

I sincerely mean this....Good luck with whichever way you choose to proceed.

I would appreciate your editing out my post with my personal information. I do not plan to leave it up forever and would like it to not be quoted in another post on the thread.

I hope you DON'T delete anymore posts, because there are some great people here that can help you that may not see your post for a few days.

I deleted some of my early posts for fear that FWH would come here and see the details I was writing and be mad. I regret deleting them because they were relevant to my journey.



Me, too. I homeschool our 5 children.



My FWH left, came home and "pretended", then left again for her. Now he's home for good. That's a lot of rejection to take, isn't it?



This meeting or lack of meeting needs is really hard to swallow, isn't it?

When I started reading here, it killed me to think that I had to agree that I didn't meet FWH's needs, so he got to have an affair. That's how I saw it at the time. But THAT IS NOT what all the MB stuff means. That is just more pain on top of what we already feel we cannot carry.

However, when we begin to understand HOW emotional needs and our love bank works, we can begin to put some pieces back together. We don't have to say, "Yes, I failed you here, and failed you there." In fact, my FWH says "I" didn't fail as a wife at all. His affair happened because of baggage he carried around from his momma.

But because I now understand the love bank idea and emotional needs and love busters, I CAN SEE where he didn't have needs met. He had A LOT of independent behavior and dishonesty. My top needs include family commitment and openness and honesty. Because he had so much independent behavior, my love bank was always incredibly low (although I didn't see it at the time, because he was very affectionate which did make me feel loved). Because my love bank was so low and because I had 5 young children, I was not always "up for SF". When we had it, it was great...but it was not enough for my FWH who would like it morning, noon, and night. He other needs are admiration and affection, but he often did not "receive" these from me because of the baggage I mentioned earlier. (Don't know if this is making any sense--just trying to explain the love bank idea for you).

What's different now? My FWH now SEES that his independent behavior never filled him up like the world tells you it will. Doing "his own thing" (activities, hobbies, etc) never could give him what I could. Now he WANTS to be home getting the admiration and affection from me. That small key of understanding has unlocked a multitude of doors for us. He meets my needs of opennes and honesty and family commitment and affection, and WOW! I am "in the mood" a whole lot more. When our love banks begin filling up, our romantic love begins to be restored.

THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE HIS AFFAIR. IT DOES NOT JUSTIFY HIS ACTIONS. My needs weren't being filled and I didn't have an affair. No one expects you to take blame for his horrific choices.

BUT TO GET INTO RECOVERY, the love bank is key. Not because we need to go back into the past and decide who failed who. But because we need to look into the present and future and see how we can fall in love again....romantic love...passionate love. We can just love each other with the caring love that is there because we are husband and wife. But do you want more? Do you want to feel romantic and passionate again? Do you want him to feel romantic and passionate again?





I could have written this myself once. I think Imy thread probably says that almost word for word. YOU ARE NOT ALONE HERE.



I wish I could give you a guarantee. We all wish we could give everyone who's been through this a guarantee. All I can do is guarantee that if you follow MBers, you will know that you DID ALL YOU COULD to save your marriage and your fmaily. You will be able to stand before your children and tell them that you fought with every last breath to give them what they deserve...an intact, loving family...a mom and dad who are passionate about each other. You will be able to stand before God and know that you gave it all you had. And God WILL HONOR THAT.




I have no desire to bash you. But I will tell you the truth. And yes, you ARE at the bottom, nothing is lower. So...there's only one way to go! Do you want to stay at the bottom of the pit; or are you ready to begin the move up out of it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do whatever I can to help you get there. Sending many hugs to you...{{{{{{{{{{{{{RU}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

RU,

I am so confused here. Why are you concerned about your information. You are totally anonymous here. We have no idea who you are, so even though we may learn the details of your situation, we still don't know who you are. Without these details left on your thread, we will lose track of your story and will be unable to offer you much help. It is easy to get stories confused around here, so we often reread the thread to get a look at where you've been.

It will be VERY difficult to offer help over time if you come in and delete everyting.

Are you concerned about your WH coming here and reading? I had that fear in the beginning.

RU I could've written these words myself: All I have been asking for is some concrete steps to take. School Bus has given that to me somewhat...but I admit, I don't do well with anything that doesn't have a "set in stone" set of directions and timeline.


They are set in stone if you read how to survive an affair. It gives you the info on how to NOT LB, AO, DJ, etc. along with How to Plan A..which is showing your WS that YOU are the better choice and all that goes with that. Plan B is IF the A can't be broken and YOU need to save what love you have left for your WS. All of this info is what the other posters have been trying to give you.

I would have loved to have an outline specifically for me, telling me what to do, when, how, and for how long. BUT when you deal with people (especially alien people-what we call WS that are in fog) that won't work.

Read the articles on this site you can. Order or may be available at your library, Surviving an Affair. Learn all you can about Plan A, implement, ask questions here. We ALL have FELT the PAIN you are in. We want to help.

As I stated before, I have posted on message boards in the past. Granted, I have changed my handle...but I just have no desire to be "found" by my WH and his cohorts.

RU,

I want to share with you that I personally think that infidelity in a M where the family has a larger # of kids than the typical family, esp when the mom has been sahm, is much more painful for the BS. I believe it's because of the level of devotion, sacrifice, and commitment that comes with having more children. Having 6 kids in the 1st 10 yrs of my M left me open to ridicule, remarks, and just plain hostility from people I didn't even know. To have to cope with betrayal from my H on top of it, it pushed me over the edge. What you've said resonates loud and clear with me. I'm glad SMB posted to you, because I'm sure she's experienced the same acute feelings.

With all respect for your privacy, may I ask if your doctor is aware of the added stress you're trying to cope with. What you've experienced is well over the stress threshold. You're going to want to be on your guard to keep from sliding into depression, which can easily become hormone induced.

Also, I had sensed something more in your posts and that's why I recommended journaling. It can help you get in touch with your feelings and get the hurt and anger out.

I hope our fellow MBer's will take into acct your extenuating situation. It is way harder to deal with M problems while getting through the hormonal changes and physical healing as well as the demands of a new person. I remember being glad if I was able to get a shower or out of my pajama's on some days.

It might make some folks angry here, but I think you the first step you should take for your M is focusing on regaining your physical health and strength. Take care of yourself. Focus on the LO. Since $ is tight, utilize the free articles from mb. Do what you feel you have the strength for in regarding the M. If you don't feel up to anything, just do your best to avoid lovebusters.

Get through the pp period. When the hormones level off, you've recovered fully from the surgery, and sleep deprivation isn't the norm, then you'll have a much better state of mind to focus on all of this.

((((hugs))))

Jewel

No, the doctor is not aware. I have been on medications in the past for depression and none of them worked. I already know I've slid into a depressed state...but unsure what to do about it.


That is what the one friend I have told about this stated I should do. But with nursing, that could be 4 to 6 months away. Living in this limbo state is too hard.


Thanks to all for the hugs and such.

RU,

RMJ makes some very good points that I had not considered.

Right now you do need to recover from the post partum phase. And you mentioned you are nursing, so you really need to take good care of yourself or you will have all your nutritional resources depleted. I know, I've been there.

You don't have to make any life altering decisions right this minute.

I really feel for you. I know what it's like to just give birth to baby #5 and still care for the others. I can't imagine dealing with an affair at the same time. I am so sorry you are facing this right now.

Hang in there. Keep posting here. We are here to support you in whatever you decide. For now...eat...sleep...drink lots of water....hold your baby....read to you little ones....cuddle...and cuddle some more. Then eat again.

Take care. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Yes, Jewel, I heard some of the rudest comments by strangers when they realized, Oh my goodness, she's having her 5TH BABY!!!!! That poor lady. Gee, does anyone think that maybe some of us actually ENJOY OUR CHILDREN!

My rudest comment to date came from a stranger at the grocery store just a few months ago. An older lady saw me buying groceries with my 4 children around me in an obviously pregnant state and said with scorn:

"Don't you think you should stop? Don't you know the world is overpopulated as it is?"

Not so long ago large families were celebrated...now, people look at you as if you are crazy if you give birth to more than one or two.

Why do people have to be so mean???

Because they can't see their own blessings staring them in the face.

RU,

I wish that there were concrete steps to recovery - I would have walked them.

I have been in the pit. I cried in that pit, and tried to crawl under the bed, I hid in the closet, and tried to just vanish from the world somehow......it doesn't happen. You keep living every day because you have children, because you are alive, because you must.

This pain will pass, RU. I promise you that this pain will pass.

Every day, a little bit of it will be chewed off by the time, by the learning, by the will of living, and you will rise again

stronger
smarter

I promise.

Your marriage CAN recover from this affair, and it actually can rise from the ashes of this betrayal in a way that makes you and your husband better at communicating, better at loving one another.

It is possible.

My husband and I are a success story. And no, we did not pay for counseling sessions.

I will be back in a little bit to tell you how we did it.

SB.

We followed MB principles.

First, we committed to the marriage, as we both agreed that we did not want a divorce. Sure, there were many days that I felt like it would probably have been easier - emotionally and otherwise - to have walked away and started over elsewhere. But it wasn't what I WANTED. I loved my husband, despite his affair, despite it all. And I knew that somehow, despite his affair and his messed up thinking, that he loved me. So we decided that we would give this thing the time - the TWO YEARS THAT THE EXPERTS SAID IT WOULD LIKELY TAKE - and work on it.

Once the commitment to work on the marriage together was there, we had the foundation for the rest.

I began reading books about recovering marriages after affairs. My husband was quite reluctant to do so. At one point, I told him that if he did not start doing his share of the lifting, the experts said that I would leave him - because I would grow resentful and frustrated - and I was growing resentful and frustrated. I gave him the book I read that in.

He began doing his share of the lifting that very evening, and has ever since. Because although he was committed in the marriage, he really didn't KNOW what to "do". He began sharing in activities with me.

The one book that he did feel comfortable with the activities in was "Relationship Rescue" by Dr. Phil, because it is one in which the talking is quite limited, both parties get an open forum of uninterrupted time, and the questions are NOT focused on affair-talk. Also, it limits the talking to one topic at a time, and there are strict rules on the talking. You might want to look at this book closely, do the "self-work" up front, and then ask your husband to participate in the question parts at the back of the book once you read and do the first part of the book. It was very helpful in homing in on my own problematic behaviors, and getting me to stop some of them.

We used strict communication rules in talking about the affair. At first, without the rules, we tended to exhaust ourselves, and the "talks" ended up being marathons. I would go crazy, crying and breaking down; he would just lose it because he didn't know what to do to help me, what to say, how to answer questions without upsetting me further. Yet, he knew I needed answers, and he wanted to go through that process. I wanted answers, but I couldn't go through the process in an orderly fashion without LB (Love Busters), or without just losing my composure and becoming self-deprecating, depressed, or blaming him/me, or the whole thing just degenerating into a lost cause altogether.

So I came up with "the rules", which are on my thread, and I did bump that up for you. I encourage you to read it, and stick to the rules when you two talk about the affair. You two have to have some guidelines in your discussions, because you have to take the emotion out of the scene to the greatest extent possible in order to make progress in getting your questions answered, and in order to make communication between the two of you safe for both parties again.

We used the time rules of spending 15 hours a week together as NO AFFAIR TALK TIME - and that was a strict rule. We needed that time to learn about one another again, to date, to give each other time to show the other kindness, love, and gentleness. Time for Plan A togetherness for one another. And we took that time. It didn't cost anything most of the time. We went for rides on our motorcycle, to get a cup of coffee in another nearby town, or to visit a wildflower farm. Just time together, without anybody else, like we did when we first met. Strange to say, but at first that time was HARD to carve out - now, we guard it preciously and greedily against all intruders.


And we talked. Gingerly at first. We were just getting to know each other, after all. We were afraid to say anything "wrong". We were walking on eggshells. We were trying to put our best foot forward, wondering if this would upset the other one, or if that would bother the other one. And one day, one of us said (I can't remember who!)

"I can't live like this anymore. I can't live like I don't know you. I can't live walking on eggshells, worried that I might upset you, or you won't like this or that. I just want to be myself and have you love me."

And the other said, "Me too."

And we laughed, because it was true - we just wanted to love each other easy.

So we talked using the rules about how we were to love each other easy.

And the talks changed that day, from what the affair was about

to what our love and marriage was about

and what we wanted in life

and what we loved about each other.........


and now, we don't need "the talks" anymore.


Because you see, we learned to talk and walk and live through this pain. We communicated through it, and loved through it, and just walked on those hot coals every stinking day until those hot coals burned out.

It was not easy.

But somehow, it happened.


But there is NOT a path laid out for you. My path was mine.

Please, read the material on this website. It made the daily difference in my marriage. The forums saved my sanity, because the people who post here have all been through this mess, too. One aspect of it or another, they have been through it - some have divorced, some have recovered, some have been wayward, some betrayed. (Please be aware of who you listen to - there are trolls here, and people who are in affair-marriages, or others or who have children by other people outside their marriage, or liars, or others who might encourage non-marriage-builders advice. - We do try to let you know about them when they come along, though.)

Read every single thread on the forums, too. Read the advice of posters you don't like - sometimes those are the very people who are giving the advice you might need to hear, because sometimes it's not WHAT they say, it's the delivery you don't like - try to read past the delivery and look at the message itself. Keep your mind open.

And use this place to vent your hurt, anger, frustration, and joys - and YES, you will have joys - as you ride this roller coaster of recovery.

It isn't for sissies. But your children will thank you, and you will thank yourself about two years from now, when you're through this rough place, and your life is getting back in the groove.

Hang on.

SB

FH,

You're right - I hope RU listens to everything good on MB, and is able to learn from what is here. I know that this system worked for me, but it wasn't easy to hear some things, especially at first.

Tough lessons.

SB

Schoolbus i have never read any of your advice but let me just say it was very incouraging and hopeful that even without the aid of a counselor that anything is possible. Than you for your post and i am glad i found it here.

bella,

I followed MB principles. The Harleys were my counselors, in that they outlined the path, wrote the books, give the radio program, and allowed me to access this forum and website for free.

I credit them with most of the recovery, because without this plan, I most likely would have been a divorce statistic. I would not have known how to recover my marriage.

Read this site.
Read the posts.

Follow the advice of the Harleys, and read their books, as well as other books.

And work hard at your marriage. Come here and ask for help.

Also, be sure to look at who is posting advice to you. If the person is new to the forum, they aren't as likely to know the MB way - so be sure you're getting MB advice and not something from someone just giving you their own opinion. While people's opinions DO matter, when it comes to a Plan, you want something with some research and professional help behind it, don't you? Not a faceless person just coming here and giving you advice. So I went with what Dr. Harley had to say, and I read a lot here.

I went with the advice of folks here who followed the MB plans, the MB advice, and those whose opinions made good solid sense based on LONG TERM MEMBERSHIP HERE. These are the people who seemed to have the best foundation in building a marriage using good sound principles.

I believe that is why my marriage recovered.

I'm sorry you are here, Bella. Have you started a thread of your own?

SMB and Jewel,

Did you tell your children?

Hi,

I'm not SMB or Jewel but my son was 6 when it happened and he knew enough to know his dad had friends that were not friends of our family. This greatly upset him and even at 6 he knew his father should NOT have a GF. So about 4 months after d/d, he wrote his dad a 4 sentence letter. 2 questions and 2 statements. It was his idea and he composed the letter I just helped him spell a few words (i.e. divorce). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Yes schoolbus my thread is called hanging in there..... i am not sure how to past it into my siggy but it is somewhere on the threads.... i have to post to it again so hopefully it will bump up. Thank you again.

Orchid-

Did you tell your son or was the situation so overt that you had no choice but to explain it to him? I haven't told any of my 4 children (ages 6-11), but I wonder whether or not I should. I'll be asking SH when we talk again next week.

My children do not know what happened in my situation. Exposure did not happen because the affair was stopped immediately. The situation in my house was that at the very point that I found out, my husband was diagnosed with cancer and chaos ensued. I could not handle much more, and so my father had a heart attack to add to the pile of fun.

I was in dire need of help - and my oldest daughter was in a depressed episode at the time. To add to that might have pushed her into a problem that I could not have dealt with (and she did not need to do, either), so we made a decision to deal with the issue between us and the OW's side. Some of our closest friends know, but not our family, as there are illnesses (my dad's heart is one, and my H's dad is not coherent so there was no point exposing there).

My younger daughter is really the only family member at the time who I probably should have told, and she recognized that there were major issues befalling me. She stepped up to the plate, and was there for me, without asking details. I am pretty sure she knows something happened, but is the kind of person who is quite private (although she leads a VERY public life, strange...). She wrote me a song, which tells me she knows. I think she gave that to me as her way of giving me the support I needed at the time, yet the privacy to deal with it all in the way I needed as well.

It is very difficult when dealing with people in crisis, both mental and physical illness. At the time, I didn't know what to do. Exposure wasn't the important issue - saving my husband's life was, getting my dad the care he needed (he also had cancer, BTW), and getting our lives back on track were the big issues.

I truly do not know how I made it through the first few months. I read here, certainly.

But the "exposure" concept wasn't something I ran across until much later. Initially, it seemed to me to be something that one used to stop ongoing affairs, continued contact, etc. That was not the problem in my sitch. Contact stopped on d-day, and NEVER resumed, not one peep between the two of them, ever.

I spy.

Which was something recommended, and I did. Occasionally, now, I get the fears, so I might still look. There's nothing to see.

Now, I wonder if exposure would have been a good idea for us. I think people would have been confused, given that the type of cancer my husband had virtually gave us no chance for SF ever again - I worried that the support would have been "mourning my loss" and not "supporting my marriage". I didn't need that.

Now, he IS able to have SF, and has fully recovered, with the help of medical science and prayer. (More like me begging God above every single night!)

So I don't know if I did the right thing with not fully exposing this or not, but my marriage IS recovered. We are together, and the family is fine.

I guess I didn't follow this rule of MB, but I don't know that it was that important in my personal case, given the life circumstances and type of affair I had to deal with.


SB

Orchid,

I have the same question - was the adultery so blatant and your 6 yr old figured it out before the affair ended?

Mine are around your son's age and younger, but none have any idea anything happened...other than mommy is upset quite a bit of the time. My step-daughter is 16 yrs...which I guess it wouldn't be my call to tell her.

The affair has ended now, but I was wondering if they should be told.

Thanks,
RU

Hi RU and crew,

The issue of exposure is one that you'll notice the Harley's have not really addressed here. There's virtually nothing on the web site with it (except with regard to exposing to your wayward spouse). In SAA, there's little mention except with the option of sending a copy of the Plan B letter to the OP as well as the WS. When I was counseling with Steve, my exposure started with my wife. I then exposed to her only sister. When I went to Plan B---parents on both sides were told. My kids weren't.

Exposure is wielded as a tool to end the affair. It's not used in all situations, nor is it used widespread and indiscriminately. It may cause more issues with regards to recovery than is worth. This is something I'd definitely consider---and for 14thgpr, it's worth having that conversation with Steve.

Road,

The decision to tell children varies amongst posters. The lesson I learned is when my 6 year old told me: 'mom, kids don't like to be lied to.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Imagine that..... children are aware their parents and others sometimes lie to them.... for what... to protect them?

I asked my son why.... he told me directly: 'mom, parents tell kids not to lie then they do. why? We don't like that.'

I asked him was that just his opinion alone? He said no. Kids talk about it even in school or daycare and in other situations.

So when dealing with the A, I learned that my son needed his personal support group and I needed mine. Together we needed one as well. We each participated in each other's support group.

I let my son know that I would be honest with him but due to his age, I would have to limit what I shared but that I respected his support. That little tyke got it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am sooo proud of him. He reminded me that kids knew more of what is going on than adults realized. Hm..... that made me improve my communication style with him. It exists to this day. He doesn't like it when I put some restrictions on him (i.e. tv shows, movies, association, etc.), he just turned 13..... but he understands the reasons and we work together to help him move forward.

So to your question about telling your child.... start by asking your child what he thinks about subjects like lying and trust. Get his input and then decide how and what to tell him.

JMHO,
L.

There are also other things to consider with kids. How much they understand is important - for example, a child with certain special needs might not fully comprehend certain issues, and might need a different type of explanation. If you have this situation, it might help to ask a professional how to explain it to the child, so they can understand the situation in a way that isn't too upsetting or confusing to them.

I agree with limiting things depending on the age of the kid. One thing you might try is answering the question the child asks - and instead of long explanations, answer only the question at hand. Too often, adults want to give these looonnnnggg explanations, and the children are looking for a short answer, just the surface question answered. Adults tend to read in more than there might be to the question and answer more in-depth than is needed.

You might try letting the child be the guide, and they will pretty much lead you through what they want to know. As they understand one aspect, they may come back for more information as they process what they have been told. Then, answer the new questions. It can unfold for them, and if you create a safe environment for them to ask questions and get answers that are calm and easy for them to understand, they will tend to come back when they are ready for more information. Younger kids do this, but as they get older, you might see different responses. Teens are the least predictable, and you'll have to know about the individual and work with them to help them through it. If you have a teen who needs to be told, it might help to have counseling ready.

SB

RU,

I did tell all my children. I talked with each one individually. I talked with them when FWH refused to end affair and had left. If the affair had ended and he was working with me for recover at that time, I don't think I would have told them anything other than mommy and daddy love each other but are working at making our marriage better.

I told my 7 and 9 yos that, "Although mommy got married for ever, daddy did not." Then I told them that daddy had a girlfriend, wants a divorce, and is moving out. It was the hardest thing I've EVER done in my entire life...and the most painful.

I told my middle child (11 yos) a little more detail. I told my 13 yod and 17 yos a lot more information.

I could not accept the world's view of telling my children that "mommy and daddy just don't love each other anymore and so are getting a divorce." That's just hogwash. We spent years teaching our children God's view of marriage. There was no way I was going to turn around and tell them that "sometimes couples fall out of love and divorce is then OK." I wanted them ALL to know that their daddy was battling with sin and, therefore, making choices that were outside of God's will. And that God's truth is always truth, no matter how shady someone (even daddy) wants to make it.

Now my children are learning about God's forgiveness, mercy, grace, restoration, healing, miracles, and so much more as they witness God putting their family back together.

SMB,

My kids are all soooooo much younger than that. My oldest was the age of your youngest at the time.

I guess if it were still ongoing, I would need to say something. As is...I'll just see what happens.

Thanks.

Hi RoadUntraveled,

I haven't posted to you and have a special favor. I've bypassed this thread and missed a goldmine of info because I thought it was deleted.

Could you please repost something in the first part of this thread so it does not show as deleted.

I must go but will be back later to read and maybe post. You're getting such good advice that I can only encourage you. So I will. Keep Going Road.....you can do this!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{RoadUntraveled and family}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Ace

RU, are you a SAHM?

My children overheard the dday bomb being dropped. (by the SO of a family member, nonetheless)

My younger 3 kids were ages 6, turning 4 the next day, and 17 mos. They didn't understand what was going on.

However, my then 4 yr old would say that he hated person "x" (who told me) "because he took our family away".

With your children's ages, you don't have to say anything. If the older one asks, just give honest answers on the level of maturity that the child is.

The others are probably to little to ask or understand. But be careful that they don't think that they're the reason for your sadness and being upset. Children internalize their parents' emotions at those tender ages.

Jewel

Yes, I am.

RU,

My MS is the one who found the cell phone with text messages of what WH and OW did together. MS called her and told him he had her phone. She said it was her boyfriends and he said well, I can get my dad to give it to you.

Yeah my dad is.....

There was silence on the phone.

Mothers' Day my kids were in an awful mood, didn't know why, just thought they were teenagers. WH ended up going to work and didn't cook dinner for me until Monday night. We had the most amazing conversation, I left for a meeting and then my two boys confronting their dad.

WH told the kids he loved her and walked out. My kids hate him and I have to say, he hasn't helped his cause by blaming the kids for not keeping in contact with him.

My heart breaks for all the kids who lives are effected and changed forever in ways we can't understand. I would offer you to pray to G-d and seek his guidance on what to do. G-d doesn't have grandchildren and he is hurting for them as well.

Do you have anything going on your day/week that builds you up? Do you have the opportunity to spend time with other moms or pursue any interests/hobbies? Can you join an exercise class or gym? I know during my SAHM days, it was easy to slip into dressing every day in slumpy sweats, jamming my hair back in a ponytail, and not touching a lick of makeup. Is that how you are? Are there things you can look into doing that can help you into moving into a stronger place emotionally?

If you are asking "Do I have any time away from the kids?" - the answer is basically "no".

I do have a "job", so to speak...I watch children in a nursery at a church while my son gets something like a playdate with other kids.

However, there is hardly a time where I get to do things by myself...or even just with H. The "15 hours" a week thing is impossible...

I have gotten this advice before, but lack of time and money is a major issue. Maybe if the day had 40 hours...

Could you pray to G-d for some help with showing you how you could build yourself up or find sometime to be alone with your H.

Remember, if you have FAITH in G-d. NOTHING is impossible. You just might have to be more creative.

I was just thinking of posting to you about needing 40 hrs in a day to get all that has to be done, completed. Oh, and that doesn't include potty runs (for you) and sleep!

I remember those days when I had 5 kids, those were the busiest of my life. With the oldest just turning 8, they were too young to care for themselves and still needed me or my guidance most of the time.

See, I can fully understand when you say that you don't have time for yourself, much less 15 hours of time with your spouse. With children those ages, you truly are that *busy*.

May I ask you something, RU? How did you and your H decide to have the # of children that you've had within the time frame that you've had them? Was it out of religious convictions? A decision that you both made together?

I ask because I'm trying to understand the frame of mind that your H was coming from to do what he did. If I'm offending you in any way, please tell me to stop. But I deeply believe that when this type of situation happens in a M where there are more children than the norm, and those children are especially young, that it's an indication that the WS has family of origin (FOO) issues going on.

Here at MB we generally say, hey the WS strayed because his/her emotional needs weren't being met. That reason isn't fully applicable when there is a family situation that the WS's willing participation created, that draws from the BS having needs met or extracts additional sacrifice on the BS's part. One has to dig for deeper issues when facing the A.

So I thought I would ask, in order to understand better.


Jewel

We did not use BC due to my H being Catholic.

I was an atheist up until about January 2007. Had been since college, but brought up Episcopal. I agreed to bring the kids up Catholic when I married him.

When he walked out, my children and I began going to a Divorce Care class. I found my way back to having faith again...although it is now shaken again.

So much I thought was a gift from God last year. Now it is like he was pulling a cruel joke.

Ironic - the "good" Catholic committed adultery, while the atheist/Born Again Christian stayed faithful.

RU,

One of the things many SAHM's tend to believe is that they are "in service" all the time - in other words, that they don't get time off.

You deserve time off from your JOB - which is a full time job as much as mine is - and you deserve that time off as much as your husband does, I do, your pastor does, and the lady at the grocery store check-out stand does. Don't put yourself in the mindset that you are always on duty, please. There must be times in your day, in your week, where you take the time to renew and refresh yourself. Because without that time, you lose yourself and become so engrossed in being what you are to other people

that you lose who you are to yourself.

It is important to understand that you must be able to build yourself up

in order to build the marriage up.

Because the marriage is between two PEOPLE

You
and
him

and not between you and him and all the kids - although the kids are a part of the family.

The primary relationship of husband and wife is the foundation of the family, and your foundation needs to be built and refreshed regularly.

Each of you needs to be strong.

He needs to be a person of integrity, strength, and health.

And so do you.

That takes time alone, so you can focus on the things that give you renewal.

And

That takes time together as a couple, to create intimacy and bonding together.

(By intimacy, I'm NOT talking about sexual intimacy.)


My recommendation is to find another woman, or a group of women, and start an exchange of day care time between you. It would be FREE OF CHARGE. Keep track of the hours, and trade time off!!!!! Keep each other's kids for a few hours a week, create a bank of time, and

use that time for YOUR OWN RENEWAL.

Or as date time.

It doesn't take lots of hours, RU.

But once you get hold of a few hours, you will want and crave more. You will realize that just sitting quietly in the park reading a book alone is just what you needed - or window shopping alone - or having coffee with a girlfriend without any kids - or checking out that new museum - or meeting your husband for lunch on Wednesday - or, or, or....

There are so many options. And just taking a sandwich to meet him for lunch costs nothing.

Just someone to watch the kids for a couple of hours.

And you can bank it in just a couple of hours.


Think creatively - and think "I CAN do this."

SB

Quite a bit of what was posted was placed into quotes...and unfortunately I cannot delete that portion of the thread.

Basically, the title says it all. I was/am looking for concrete, step by step instructions to surviving this situation and recovering.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Schoolbus - I'm trying to start a babysitting swap situation with other moms. I'll see what happens with that.

As for building myself up...well, that is the only direction I can go at this point.

It's the right direction. And you will find it will make a huge difference all the way around.

SB

In reading another thread, I see some of you have ideas about keeping depression at bay with natural means. I've used ADs before with little benefit, if any.

Could you tell me what natural remedies you've seen work?

Thanks in advance.

I saw your other thread about natural vs medical. I think you're doing the right thing by calling a provider.

I haven't used AD's since I haven't had a diagnosis of depression before. But I did use St John's wort and counseled with a cognitive/behavioral IC following my dday.

In this type of situation, the help of an independent, unbiased, third-party person can be very constructive in personal recovery.

I'm cutting and pasting what I posted on your other thread:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

can I even use ADs or natural remedies while nursing?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do I dare post this??? I sure don't want a debate about alternative medicine!

Our family has been under the care of a homeopathic DO for over 13 years and have much success treating many illnesses. My dr. always prescribed a homeopathic remedy called Ignatia for emotional upset and grief. It is what I used to finally get me past my depression.

Here is a link that discusses homeopathy and depression. Notice that it is the remedy recommend for depression caused from heartbreak or betrayal.

http://members.tripod.com/LMhomeopathy/depression.html

Homeopathy is safe while nursing. The only caution is when using a remedy that might affect milk supply. For instance, when I had a miscarriage, my dr. prescribed a remedy to dry up my milk. Some remedies are used to help establish a sufficient milk supply. I am pretty sure Ignatia does not affect milk supply because I think it is sometimes used for post-partum. I will double check this right away and post if I find otherwise.

Be aware that homeopathy and herbal medicine is NOT the same thing. Some herbs can have serious side affects. So if you want to take that route, check with an herbalist or someone who is knowledgeable.

I would also recommend exercising 3 or more times a week not matter how hard it is to get started. It is proven to help with depression. If I remember correctly, it stimulates the brain to produce certain chemicals (endorphins). I would also recommend eating as healthy as possible, taking vitamins, and drinking lots of water (especially since you are nursing). Nursing also causes your body to release endorphins (which in nursing circles are referred to as the "natural happy drugs". So...nurse away. Just be sure you are eating enough and getting enough water. My dr. always told me to take calcium no matter how healthy I ate, because having been pregnant and nursing for so long, chances were high that my body's calcium was being depleted.

RU,

Would you please give more info on your situation. If I remember correctly, you have deleted most of the info, and I really don't know the status of your situation (I will go back and check this thread).

How long was the A? Emotional/physical? When did it end? How did it end? NC letter? Do you have the books SAA and His Needs Her Needs? Are you two in counseling? Is it MB friendly? What is your WS doing to ensure no contact, transparency, and accountability? What are you both doing to restore your love for each other?

{{{{{{RU}}}}}}

Since SMB asked some very important questions, I'd also like to ask you,RU, about the remark regarding your H being "oblivious" to your feelings in the other thread? What's happening? Is he not validating your feelings over what has happened?

Jewel

Most of the information on my situation is still here on the thread.

My DDay was October 29th - day after my birthday. Certainly won't look forward to that day anymore. The OW's mother called me and told me of the adultery. WS denied it until I had an email exchange with this person and proof was attached to the email.

NC has been established, but no NC letter. WS says the OW's mother is crazy and will cause problems with any kind of contact. I wanted him to write this, but he refuses and says NC is enough.

Yes, I have those books. HNHN would have been helpful before the fact...now I'm just finding all literature about this subject unenlightening. (I'm very low and my 'interpretations' of what is written is bringing more pain than insight.)

Yes, we are in MC.

There is little difference in actions by WS. He says where he's going, but I have little trust at this point.

As for restoration - LBs abound in our relationship right now. I'm trying, but I'm so hurt and angry and resentful of his actions, angry outbursts are common. Of course, I'm getting very little understanding and am seeing little remorse on his side. In his mind, it is 'over' and 'I don't think about it anymore'. (Nice for him, huh?)

Anyway...there are more particulars here too. Guess if he decides to read here, he'll know who is posting. All I've said is pretty telling.

WS says "He's Sorry" and "He Understands". In essense, I am told my feelings are my problem and I have to get over them so we can "move forward".

Do you think he is still in contact but has just gone underground more?

When my FWH refused to send a NC letter, he was still very wayward and resumed the affair shortly thereafter.

When he defogged and came home, he immediately and eagerly sent the letter.

I will post more later about the info you have shared.

but I have no proof of that.

RU,

I've re-read your posts and am concerned about a few things. When you said that your WH refuses to do a NC letter because the OW's mom is crazy and will cause problems with any type of contact...how does your WH justify this?

Is the OW a minor living at home with her parents? Or a very young woman who still lives at home? I can't see a mom causing that many problems for her adult daughter's AP ...well, unless she knows your WH's boss or is your landlady.

Seriously, he's using the OW mom as an excuse. Not good.


Given your WH's attitude and that you don't have a NC letter, please don't consider him to be in no contact or your M to be in active R.

Have you considered contacting OW's mom to verify that WH is staying away from OW? I know it would make your WH angry, but you might want to do this. Also, I have another question that is going to be painful, but could there possibly be an OC on the way?

Given your WH's stance on birth control and that it was OW's mom who exposed the A, you might want to verify this also.

But please, do not bring this with WH alone. Address this with the help of the MC. Maybe you can call the MC ahead of time and let him/her know you will be bringing it up.

I've only brought this up because if there are some extenuating circumstances that can impact the M and COM, then the earlier you know about it, the more pro-active you can be.

No, OW is not a minor. She is a little younger than I am. OW's mother is very controling. How he justifies skipping the NC letter...she could make waves/a scene at his work and other interests. The OW's mother called me after a serious incident concerning the OW - won't elaborate.

As for OC - I don't know. I'm very sure I would have been contacted again if this was the case...and child support/OB care bills would have come our way.

I have to tell you that when I read this statement, I was proud of OW's mom for telling you. She didn't have to tell you, and I am sure it wasn't easy for her. She could have just told your WH to leave her D alone, and never told you about it.

Consider this statement:

You have more control in this situation then you realize.

Your WH did not leave you for OW. He stayed. So, at least for now, he WANTS to be married to you. He wants to stay in your home.

When he chose to cheat - he effectively left your M. Now he wants back in. Perhaps you need to set the bar a little higher for him to get back in.

I am not suggesting you do this - but consider this possiblity:

What if you said to him: "I love you, and I want to stay married to you. I want to work on building a better M with you. I want to be the best W I can be. But in order to do that, I need you to do some things to help me heal from your betrayel. First, I need you to write a NC letter, which I will mail. 2nd, I need you to committ to spending 15 hours a week with me, dating and having fun....."

you could set your own boudaries, whatever they are. But the point is, I keep hearing you say "he won't do this, and he won't do that"
Who says that he gets to make all the rules?
Why does HE get to choose, how YOU will heal???
You get to make some of your own choices, for your own life. Frankly, he has made enough bad choices for you.

And if he is not willing to follow YOUR boudaries? Then perhaps he needs to consider moving in with his mom (or a friend)
Becuase You have a life to live.. You have children to raise. And either he is on board with you - or he needs to get the heck out of your way.

You CAN NOT be expected to just forget it and "move on". that method never works, and you would only end up back here again.

Well, I must disagree with you there. I would have rather gone to the grave having no clue.

She didn't do it for any kind of "good reason"...she did it to hurt someone. I do not appreciate sharing in that hurt. I'm sure she got perverse pleasure in thinking she was causing as much pain as she could.

I'm hating these giant mood swings.

One minute I think I may be okay...the next the stupid movie starts in my head and I'm right down in the pit again.

How am I supposed to compete? I will never be "drop dead gorgeous". Heck, right now I'm lucky if I don't have spit up on whatever I'm wearing.

RU,

I'm going to tell you what my counselor told me. I'm sharing this with you because your situation is so very similar too mine in that my catholic H and I did not contracept, had babies frequently, I nursed so there would be natural child-spacing. I also practiced natural mothering and exclusive bfing. This was at my H's insistence.

Because this was "how things are supposed to be". I converted to Catholic when I was pregnant with # 4. I've read some of your posts on other threads and I can tell you...they sound like I wrote them myself.

To my H, everything was my fault or my responsibility. I thought it was something that *I* was doing wrong. The day I birthed # 5, I made sure everything was clean and ready so I could go have my baby. I didn't rest that day, but my H laid down and rested. Later that evening, I called my midwife and told her I was on my way. She expected me to be spitting the kid out by the time I got to the hospital.

She wasn't too happy that I interrupted her dinner so I could rest at the hospital and kick into labor. I was 0 dilation, 0 effacement, and -4 station. The midwife told me if I wanted to rest, I had needed to go to a hotel instead.

The midwife went back out to dinner and told me to relax , walk a bit, or do what made me comfortable. I relaxed, walked, got into the shower, where I had 3 contractions. They were intense, but that was my labor. I told the nurse to page the midwife (she had the guard park her car since she was just returning from dinner when she got the page). My midwife came in, broke my water and 3 pushes later my baby was born.

I really just needed to rest...that's how overworked I was.

My H supposedly had a brief affair with my sister around the time I got pregnant with my 6th child (who was planned). I wouldn't find out about it until that child was 17 mos old. And I wasn't told by my H, it was a jerk who was hooked up with a relative who told me to be spiteful.


I got to a point where I was so low, that I contacted an IC. I chose Greg Popcak since he wrote a column for a magazine that is published by a catholic group who promotes natural family planning.

He was the counselor who told me that even if I had met every need and desire of my H and had been the perfect wife, my H still would have done what he did.

He said that my "H has an impoverished view of intimacy". See, my H understood what being open to life meant. He expected me and the M to be that way. He not only had a commitment to me, but to each COM individually and the family unit as well. The counselor saw the infidelity not only as a betrayal of the spouse but an affront to those little children that my H knowingly and expectingly co-created with me and God.

Dr popcak asked me point blank what I was going to do for myself, so when my h betrayed again, i wouldn't be in the place I was. He wanted to know what i wanted from myself, because my H has personal issues that affect his ability to be truly intimate.

I hope what i wrote to you doesn't offend your sensibilities so that you won't want me to post to you anymore.

But i want to tell you that this might be the case with your spouse. He could very well have issues that he too has to iron out so he can be a faithful spouse.

You might be wondering why I'm here at MB if the problem is my H's.

I have to say it's because at the time of my dday and for awhile after, with the # of kids I had and the economic situation, I believed that i didn't have a choice but to stay with my H.

However, MB was one of the first sites I found following dday. And God must've had a reason to make me computer challenged...I was clueless to what a discussion forum was so never posted to it here at the time. If i had, I don't think i would've stayed M. But I did want to find a way to make co-existing with my H easier. I began utilizing the concepts of EN's, LB's, and a modified plan a in that I tried to make me and the M desirable.

As i implemented these ideas, i learned where I was lacking. I learned concepts about relationships and boundaries and things that made me in control of *me*. I was getting myself to the place that if my h dissed on me again, i wouldn't be brought down so low. I learned that while I couldn't control the behaviors of others, i had control of my reactions and responses to those behaviors.


And the light bulb went on...I actually had a big say in my life. I could direct it. Others didn't control me.

(Look at what womanoffaith said to you in another post...)

I raised the price of admission for so many people in my life. I learned that I could take care of me, had every right to, and the responsibility to God to do so.

That's why I want to encourage you, RU, to hang in there. If you could call Dr H and get MC through MB, I think it will be for the best. I wish I had.

Even if $$ is tight, still call. Explain your situation, it is different in that you have alot of little ones relying on their parents M. You might be surprised, the Dr could very well want to help at a rate that works for your budget. At the very least, call into the radio program.

Jewel

Could you point me to the post by womanoffaith? I have been unable to locate it.

I am hanging on, but I am scared and still very hurt and sad.

RU, click HERE for a link back to WofF's post to you.

You responded to her earlier regarding the part that didn't apply to your situation, but there was more information there in her post to you that might apply.

Thank you. I looked for the response on a bunch of other threads instead of this one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hee! Don't be embarrassed. These forums are huge, move fast and go back for years. There are a lot of ways to get lost. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

RU,

If you click on the "Search" at the top of the page, it takes you to a screen where you can type

womanoffaith

into the box where it says to search by username.


Her old posts might help you.

You might also want to go over to "just found out" and read the notable posts thread started by pepperband. It is full of thoughts and ideas about MB principles, tried and true letters and concepts, and just really great posts from a wide variety of past and present members.

One thing I did was read on the recovery forum a lot when I first started. I wanted to know and understand what happens down the line - and this helped me so much in knowing what to expect! I was able to know that when I started feeling something, it was likely because I was hitting that phase of recovery, and that others had hit it before me, and that there were posts dealing with it that I had already read. I found that just knowing there was a timeline I was moving through was reassuring - and knowing what might happen to my feelings next made the difference.

You are in a recovery that really does have a pattern to it to a great degree. Read a lot here, on all the different forums, so you can see yourself in the posts of others, and understand what might be coming to an emotion near you.....


and hang in there. You are getting pretty great advice.

RU,

I see you posting that you are not "drop dead gorgeous" and cannot compete.

You don't have to compete.

He already chose to stay married to you. You are not in a competition.

Also, it's important that you understand that this affair he had

IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

It is also not about the looks of the other woman.

It is about your husband's inability to protect himself and to protect his boundaries with other women, to stick to his vows, and to recognize the needs of the marriage above everything else.

He knows what this affair is about, and the idea that he wants you to "just get over it and move on" is evidence that he wants to bury his own guilt and not look at himself and his faults and behavior.

Because the affair was HIS choice about HIMSELF.

And not about you.

Remember that.

Had you been in the room when the vote was taken on the affair, you would have voted "no".

And he had to talk himself into this affair, don't forget that. It didn't "just happen", it was something thought about and fought about inside his head.

He fought himself, but CHOSE to give in to his own weakness.

And now he regrets that.

He now CHOOSES you.

The problem is that he is not doing the things he needs to do to make you feel as though the choice is positive, right, safe, and loving. You are not sure that his choice is one borne of love, or convenience, or guilt, or...what....

And you are insecure, blaming yourself, working on doing everything you can to be "good enough", look "good enough", feel "good enough". But RU, the affair wasn't about this - it wasn't really about YOU or YOUR faults.

It was about needs, and a marriage of TWO people that wasn't where it should have been, a loss of connection between the two of you, desires unmet, intimacy lost....and BOTH of you felt that.

But only one of you chose an affair.


And it takes both of you to fix it.

Give him Joseph's letter.

Tell him he needs to read it. And ask him to take just 10 minutes a night reading one of the books with you - Surviving an Affair, His Needs Her Needs, After the Affair, just one book for 10 minutes together.......ask for that time to help you heal. He needs to begin to understand that there is NO "just get over it", and that there is at least 2 years from when you guys BOTH start working before you really settle out and feel safe with him.

He broke the trust. He needs to get to the repair, and unfortunately you will have to work to get him the tools to do it. That's probably the worst part of this - too often the WS has to be dragged to the workbench.

SB

RMJ,

Thank you for all the posts to me. Many of the things you write could be straight from my future journal.

I'm still having a great deal of trouble and sadness, though. I'm trying to minimize the LBs, but really have no desire to put effort into fulfilling my WS's ENs. After the devastation he has caused in my life two years in a row...it is almost like I look at him as a roommate.

Everyone keeps asking me (well, those who know...which aren't many), "What do you want to do?" Sounds so easy, doesn't it?...but for me it isn't. I saw the pain in my childrens' eyes last year when they were without a parent...I just can't imagine putting them through that again. Unlike my WS, I have a responsibility to these children...and their happiness matters to me a great deal.

Thank you SB. I appreciate your post.

SB,

I am bringing up this thread again because of some things my WS keeps saying:

"The affair was a symptom. We need to work on the root problem." (In reading CoDependancy No More, I'm finding we are both that way to the extreme.)

"Every time you bring up the affair, it takes me to H*** again. I have to relive the worst mistake of my life."

I have to heal from his affair, though! And I feel like I am being forced to do that alone. Alone, yet again.

What do I do?

Guess this is really for anyone wanting to answer...not just SB.

Thanks!

Hi RU
It sounds as if we are at the same stage! We are working with Jennifer and maybe I can pass on some of the wisdom we got from her.

We started by filling out the EN questionnaire. His was long and full of demands. Mine was . . . zero. I had NO ENs that I was interested in having him fill. She managed to eventually coax one or two tiny things out of me but that was all. As far as his ENs are concerned, I have NO INTEREST in filling them.

So we turned to the LBs. That was when the light came on. He was doing so many LBs that I had totally withdrawn. Totally blocked him out. As soon as she got him to stop some of the worst DJs, the situation improved. Who said there were no magic bullets? It certainly felt like a magic bullet from where I was! Once he stopped the worst of the LBs, I was able to consider meeting an EN or two which is where things stand right now.

Another thing; when we started counseling with her I told her that I did not know if the A was still going on as H had been cheating for 16 years without my knowledge so was evidently pretty good at it. She told me that she would know pretty quickly. Yesterday I asked her and she told me that she there was NC. How did she know? Because WH was trying! Apparently a WS will pay lip service to the recovery process but will not actually do much. I asked her about the fact that every day he asks me to 'get over it, put it behind me' and she told me that this was a normal reaction but that she would ask him to stop saying it as it was a LB.

Does any of this help at all?

Yes, it helps. Every little bit helps.

I never expected to go through this...and now I read in everything that is a big "red light" for ending up dealing with this. At least one good thing will come from all of this - I will teach my children about starting a relationship and keeping it healthy...and affair-proofing from the get go.

I feel the same way. My H is Aspergers, I had no idea he would be capable of such duplicity. Of course, now I know better.

Sadly, WH learned his behaviour at the feet of his father who cheated openly on MIL for years and years to the disgust of his children so whatever happens to our M, I have to be sure that the curse is not passed on to the next generation.

RU,

How are you doing?