D-day was Nov. 22 and 10 weeks later my husband is planning his second wedding to his 25 year old girlfriend. It has been confirmed that they ARE engaged. Is there anything to salvage when it has gone this far?


Daday Nov. 22
DD 3
DS5
DH 40
Me 37
Married 10 years

Yes, Plans A & B still work even when a WS is this far gone.

Even if he rushes in and marries her (not likely, but it could happen), you would still have a very good chance that he would want to reconcile in a year or two, if you were still interested.

Funny thing, but A's tend to take the same general course, regardless of an engagement ring, or even a piece of paper that says they are married.

You may have seen this already, but only 3% of A's actually end in marriage. Of those that do, less than half are still married 5 years later.

I think it is time to just let him go and go forth and live a happy life.

Got to disagree, Medc. She's got a 3yo and a 5yo. While I wouldn't blame her a bit if she dumped his sorry behind, I still think it's time to fight to save her family, for the sake of the littles especially.

Now since she found out 2 months ago, assuming she has done a Plan A since, it is probably just about time to cut off the cake supply.

Neak, I'm with you on this. But I don't know Unconditional's whole story. I went to look up her old thread and see that she starts new ones instead of keeping to one.

Unconditional, would you please summarize your story here. Then, just keep posting to this same thread over and over as the months progress. That way, if someone wants to jump in and help you out, everything is right here. It makes it so much easier on those reading and following your story.

After you post a summary, I'll come back and try to offer my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

If you WANT to walk away from the marriage, you certainly have reason. But from your post here, it appears that you WANT your family intact and to recover your marriage. If so, stick with the Plans. The WS babble and behavior doesn't really change YOUR plan.

Hang in there.

He is still married, yet engaged to someone else??? LOL???

I like that sexymama - their behavior doesn't change your plans.

Keep that in mind.

I was thinking the same thing.

Or are we missing something?

sorry, I figured they were divorced.

That's ok. This week Medc gets one free pass. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok... I've got all of that beat...

My EX wife from my first marriage...

We go into court for the final hearing.... the Judge says...Ok... I'll grant the divorce today... but Mrs. Amazin you have to do A, B, and C before I'll sign the final decree...This is Jan 3 1996.

In mid Feb my kids come back from a weekend visit at moms... they say mommy got married.... I said WHAT? they say yea... she got married again...

She calls and says...yea.... me and so-n-so got married on Valentines Day...

I say... Don't you think we should get divorced first...LMAO ROTF... She say's what do you mean?.... I say the Judge hasn't signed our divorce papers yet... you haven''t done A,B & C yet...He's not going to sign it util you prove you've done A, B, & C....

Needless to say she got A, B and C done.

My divorce decree wasn't signed until April 26th....

LOL...

Sorry I just thought some humor might lighten things up a little...

The last time I checked it was illeagal in all 50 states to be married to more than one person at a time...

Delaying a divorce could be a strategy to ending the affair... the OW probably won't want to wait forever for WS to get a divorce...Gives you time to work on a plan...

Just a suggestion...

Good ideas everyone. Yes we are still married, In fact he just moved out Jan. 18. We are just working out the terms of the legal separation but he and his plaything are planning their wedding. Looking forward to getting some sort of settlement from the house so they can pay for it! I'm sure he's done this to keep her. Yes dragging things out will be good. They are basing much of their plans on assumptions. If the property and support is not settled, there will be no divorce and that could be made into a long, painful, expensive process. But listen I am moving on, working on myself, becoming the kind of person and mother I was destined to be. I've been journaling for a long time and looking back I am able to see just how much I was rowing the boat. If he ever came back, there's much work to be done.

He's leaving the country to be with her. Planning to see his kids once a month. I am sure I will hear plenty of excuses why he can't make it up here $$$. But the consequences are his. I will take care of the kids, be there for the kids. He and his FIANCEE can stay in their fantasy but eventually the bubble might burst and I may not be there to take him back.

Funny how when she announces to people I know that she is getting married, they don't congratulate her. Well, that's because the divorce ain't even filed yet and we have not even been separated for 2 months! He met this girl in NOVEMBER!

I'm getting stronger every day.

NEVER, ever, NEVER let your kids leave the country with him for any reason.

You are doing a great job.

Unconditional,

Tell WH that you have no intention of divorcing. It is good that you are getting a Legal Separation to protect yourself financially. After that, do NOTHING. Make him do anything related to the divorce, and don't agree to anything about a divorce.

I know where I live, I could have drug it out a year by contesting. After he has been gone from the home for 1 year, he can file and it will proceed even if I do not want it. But we would have been into year 2 by then...and really good chances of an A dying out.

Chances are good that your WH's A will die out over this next year, especially since it has been brought out into the daylight. Have you exposed? By that I mean, have you told people of influence in your lives that you are fighting for your marriage and would appreciate their support?

Please update us on this thread with a summary of your story.

I have exposed til there is no one to expose to.

My husband met this girl at the hotel he was staying at on business. He lied consistently, said she was interested in him but omitted the fact that he slept with her. After being with her he said he wanted out of them marriage. the marriage was a sham. He never loved me....he only married me and had 2 kids because it was the "right" thing to do. We lived together for 3 years before marrying, he had lots of chances to walk away and never did. So I took it all as the usual fogspeak. She is 25 and has clearly made a play for him, despite him being married. She has pursued him all the way and he is a very willing participant. What kind of woman actively pursues a married man with two children? (A predator!) I tried PLan A, exposed, was nice, accommodating. Lots of cake-eating. To no avail. He is so foggy he was babbling all the time about how he was meant to be with her. BLAH BLAH BLAH. I've realized now it is all fogspeak. He says he is divorcing me no matter what. I feel she just wants to be in love and once they face reality, that life is not easy, that real love takes effort- he might be back. But just today on the phone he said "even if I came back you wouldn't want me." I have faith the A will die out. She will get tired of waiting... That it felt great at first but it will die out. She won't wait for him. She said in her emails to him she loved him to infinity and beyond-seriously. This is her second engagement and she is only 25.

Even today he denies he's engaged, but his GF is advertising it to OUR friends.

Even today he says I guess I should have worked on myself before entertaining the idea of other people.....DUH!

Anyway, I'm doing what I can to protect myself and the kids. The rest is up to him. If he pursues Divorce I will contest, stall for as long as I can. I have never wanted my children to come from a broken home. I will do what it takes to keep my family together and he knows that BUT there will come a time when enough will be enough and I may have to leave him behind.

______________
Dday Nov. 22/07
Separated Dec.8/07
He left Jan 18/08
DD 3
DS 5
WH 41
BS 37

Have you read up on Plan A and Plan B? THey are very important to saving your marriage and fighting to keep your children's family intact.

What a pair they make! When he comes out of the fog, will he ever be embarressed!

Hi Unconditional-

I remember reading that any young woman who gets involved with a midlife man (like my XH and his XOW) usually has one or more of the following: a poor self-image, a poor relationship with her parents-particularly her father (daddy issues), is emotionally immature, has psychological issues and possibly experienced abuse as a child.

So, maybe that explains what a 25-year-old is doing with a 41-year-old.

Well let's put it this way. When I exposed to HER parents they told me: "She is 25, she knows what she is doing." And they like him. Have never seen her happier. Well hello he's a married man!!!!!!!

Definite daddy issues. Second engagement. If my WH thought I was high maintenance and moody, look out!

Add to that her confusion over why no one is congratulating her on her engagement to a married man. It's embarassing.

Ok last thing. Imagine explaining that to your family and friends. "I'm engaged after 9 weeks but I have to wait to decide a date for the wedding because my fiance is still married!" Crazy.

Unbelievable... but then again... It's a WAYWARD....

This is the drama that comes with an active wayward. This really isn't anything out of the ordinary.

Just work the plans.

After a really good Plan A, then move into Plan B, which will protect you from all this drama.

8 1/2 months ago I loved soap operas. I honestly don't think I have sat down and watched a complete show once since D-Day.

The drama is too much to understand for me. That is the most interesting thing.... Since WH has been gone, there is NO drama in my life what so ever. Him.... almost daily.

I hear you. I used to visit TMZ.com every day. Now who needs to. I am living it! The best advice I've gotten here is to view them as addicts. Otherwise you will go crazy trying to understand WHY. Just work on ourselves.

I'd be at a spa -- on a spa vacation right now and he'd be with the kids.

Spa next week, night out with the girls this weekend and then long hot vacay later in the month.

This is just wayward babble. Ignore it. They all say the same thing. tst told me he hadn't loved me for 13 years and was just biding his time until the kids were grown. They rewrite history to justify the horrid actions.





We all know the answer to this, don't we? In my case, OW set up a hotel room and called and invited FWH to meet her.





Do you feel you did a really good Plan A? Eliminated love busting? Worked to meet his emotional needs or to demonstrate a willingness to meet them?

Remember, Plan A is often followed by Plan B. Plan A often doesn't "produce results"; but later, in Plan B, you may reap the benefits of a superb Plan A.





That's exactly what it is. Learn to tune it out. Vent here.





This is more babble. They all say it. FWH told me that he was not seeing OW anymore (when he left the second time), and that his leaving had nothing to do with her. Yeah right!





You are probably right. But you don't know for sure how long that will take. That's why working the plans is so important. You will have a timeline for how long you will wait out the A.





This is a great opportunity to Plan A his behind.

Respond with something like, "I am confident that we can learn to meet each other's needs fully. I will do whatever it takes to create a happy, fulfilling marriage for both of us."

Maybe he's expressing guilt, maybe he's coppin' out, maybe he's asking whether you would be willing to take him back. Doesn't matter what his motives are...Plan A is hiney.





That's why you want to avoid any divorce talk. She will get bored waiting. She wants the fairy tale.





That is hilarious!! That's what my little one has said to me for years every night at bedtime, "I love you infinity and beyond." Infinity and beyond--right outta Buzz Lightyear. Perhaps, she's giving a clue about her emotional age. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's adorable when my little one says it. But it makes one want to upchuck coming from a "grown" woman.





Sounds like rocky waters ahead for the luv birds.






Good for you! It sounds like you know what you want.

How long have you Plan A'd? Do you feel you did a good job of it? Are you taking steps to prepare for Plan B (the LSA is a good step to get prepared)?

I think I could PLAN A some more. Am doing that in my current exchanges with him. Will keep it up.

Will update everyone after I see him tomorrow. He's got the separation agreement to mull over tonight.

It's done. He's gone. I hope she's worth it. He was crying when he left. I know it's not for me. He knows what he is doing. He says what about those men who work away from home for 6 months, are they deadbeats? He's finally concerned that this might mess them up. For weeks now he's been convinced that it didn't matter,' lots of kids don't know their fathers!'

I said well "let's be real it's not like you're being shipped off to Iraq. You're not doing the honourable thing. Let's not confuse WHY you are moving down there- it's to be with her and be unencumbered by responsibilities."

He emailed to say he was sorry, that this was all his fault and that he needed time to make it better. I think that only refers to the kids. It seems his only feelings for me are guilt.

I've got so much support here, I am so grateful to all of you. Lots of couples who will help me, we'll keep the kids busy. "It takes a village...." It's knowing that the future is in my hands, not just my own future but that of my kids.

I know he's been hurtful. I know he's been a [censored] but if he gets his head screwed on straight, can stop lying and GROW UP-- We might have had a chance. Unfortunately he wants to be 25 forever. It's bittersweet I guess. It's 14 years of your life wrapped up in one person. Forgiving and accepting him for what he was. For me that is what love is. I hope to find that again. Whether or not it is with him remains to be seen. I don't know how you can trust a WS again?

So I'm sad, sad and relieved.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know. I probably won't see him before he flies out, it's down to the lawyers now.

How are my children doing? Well they knows Daddy's gone but I still think they think it's a trip, WS was very evasive (SURPRISE). The kids probably won't see him until March. I them I know you will miss Daddy but you can call him whenever you want or we can chat on the webcam. But the rest is up to WS. He has a choice: to relegate himself to a distant UNCLE or to stay involved.

Maybe he will come out of he fog. Maybe not. But now it's time for me and the kids.

Sorry to hear that, you must be in great pain.

Just use his time for you, make yourself the best you can be for you and those precious children.

Hard for me to see men who act like this. I would give anything to have free access to my children.

{{{{{{{{{{Unconditional}}}}}}}}}}



I understand the pain. In fact everyone on here understands that pain and sadness you are feeling.

What are you doing to take care of yourself today? What can we do for you?

This is one of the hardest things you will ever go through. And I for one am glad I get to share this journey with you and help you not to feel so alone or lost..

Are you protecting your finances? I'm sure he will be back, but maybe without any money.

Be sure to get a legal arrangement for child support.

I wager that you will see him begging to come back in about 6 weeks.

How do you know this stuff Believer....

UC,

{{{{{{{{{Unconditional}}}}}}}}}}

It is such a sad day when the ACTUALLY leave. I remember it too well. FWH left...twice.

You will get through this. His moving out does NOT mean it is time to send up the white flag though.

How long have you done Plan A? And was it a solid one?

How far away is he moving?

It appears you have not told your children the truth yet? Why not? How old are they? It is critical that children be told the truth. What your husband is doing is WRONG, and your children need to be told that leaving your family is morally unacceptable. You can do this and still give them permission to love their daddy.

Do you have a LSA? Do you have your finances secure?

Well my husband is moving about 1100 miles away -- overseas. Plan A solid but probably not long enough. Still trying to maintain it. I've got an LSA and the support is good, above average. Finances secure, I've closed of all accounts and cut off the line of credit.

I'm really not sure what to tell a 3 and 5 year old. We have said that Daddy will be leaving, he will be working in the place we used to live. If you have advice for what exactly to say I'll take it. Give me the exact words.

I am doing what I can to take care of myself and have a great support system around me. I am also taking a much needed vacay soon to unwind.

I am doing everything humanly possible not to use the kids to hurt him. I love them far too much to do that. But I must say he doesn't deserve any of the compassion I give him for what he has done and said to me. How will you ever get over all of that?

UC,

Mimi always tells me that Plan A is about ME. KEEPING the FOCUS on ME. So tell me about the changes you have made for yourself because YOU WANTED to make those changes?

Exercise, eat better, lose weight
Care more about my appearance, spend more time on ME
Take baths
Journal
Listen to positive music
Surround myself with positive influences
Help others
Be more patient

My husbandd always complained about the money I spent, but I rarely spent it on myself. Scrimped on my hair etc...

Well, there's a plus! Now you don't have to worry about him complaining anymore!

Honestly I think that's all he ever did, mutter things under his breath instead of verbalizing ANYTHING.

My husband does not know how to ask for what he wants and I swear over 14 years I became just like him. I am now taking that back. I am empowering myself.

No kidding....

What does it mean to you to eat better? What are you eating. How is the weight loss coming. What kind of music do you listen to? How are you surrounding yourself with positive influences?

AWESOME unconditional! I love to hear people empowering themselves in ways that are good for them and their children, if any. Doesn't it feel good?

I can remember the feeling of finally being free of an oppressive ex. YEEHAAA!!!!

It's amazing at some of the statements that people say on here and how they hit us. Thank you. You probably won't understand and how it applied to me, but thank you.

It feels great. I would certainly spend my energy on myself rather than on my crackhead husband and his hotel ******. Opps sorry, rage emerging!

I am sad in some ways but in others I feel completely liberated. Why do we bury who we are to be in a relationship?

For me, because I lost sight of G-d and who is most important in my life.

My priorities were all screwed up. If we have G-d as our number one priority, then there isn't a chance of us losing ourself, because he LOVES us just as we are, which is perfect in his eyes.

We bury orselves because we are at heart givers, and truly meant our marriage or vows or unspoken relationship promises. Also, we let ourselves be bullied by our significant others, to our own detriment, sadly. In other words, we mean what we say and do all we can to fulfill our promises.

We are good people, that's why. Sadly, the bad apples out there abuse our good will.

There are many out there who will appreciate us. Just look for the good heart (Leah) and not only the good looks (Rebeccah).

Since I rid myself of the anchor, I found both a great heart AND much better looks!

You know how people can look good froma distance then when you get up close - whoa!

My wife looks good from afar, but gets better the closer you get! And her heart is golden, never found one better.

Unconditional, if you decide to get involved again, search for that good heart. You will not be disappointed.

For the first time in years I am actually cooking all the meals. My husband normally did and he cooked it all his way. More balance. I have lost 20 pounds since November. I wanted to lose weight but not by not eating. I am finally able to get two meals a day down and keep it there.

That's a great sign. I lost a good amount of weight when I left the anchor.

Good and bad, my wife is an excellent cook, and I'm fighting gains now.

Yes either way I am open to the possibilities that there is someone out there who will appreciate all of me. Good and bead.

There is, but you will better attract them when you are happy with yourself. You seem well on your way.

Rough night last night. My son says "I miss Daddy already". Then this morning he asks me for my work number so he can call me anytime. Poor kid. I feel like he feels like his world is falling apart. Mommy is gone to work maybe she won't be back either! It's killing me that I am shouldering this burden. What do I say to my son?

UC, your son's world IS falling apart. There is no way around it, I'm sorry to say. It is just another consequence of WS's selfish actions.

He will need a lot of reassurance from you. Tell him often that you will be there for him. Be very sensitive to not being late to pick him up from anywhere. Cuddle with him lots. Read to him. Play with him. (I forget how old your son is, but I was thinking he was still pretty young.)

Children each handle this differently. One of mine raged, another became depressed, and another withdrew. But they all needed to be reassured and have lots of opportunity to talk about their feelings.

Don't make excuses for daddy, because there is none, and in their gut they know this. So if you make excuses, it is justifying daddy's cruel behavior toward them.

You can do this UC. Be honest and be the one he can trust. Because he needs to be able to trust someone!

UC, I believe children, no matter what their ages, should not be lied to. My youngest was 6 at the time that his daddy left. I told him (and his older siblings), "Mommy got married forever, but daddy did not. He has a girlfriend and is leaving us. He is moving out of our home." I told them that I loved daddy just like they do, and if he is willing to do what is necessary, I want him to come home.



It is good not to use the kids. But that can become an easy excuse to not be honest with them (not saying you are doing that). Children suffer huge damage from a parent leaving. There's no way around that. The world has come up with some great lines that parents buy into as good for their children, but when you think of it from their perspective you realize just how absurd they are.

Tell my kids the truth? Will that not turn my son against his father? Should that matter to me?

I am overjoyed to see that it does matter to you!

"Truth" is not always the best, and some here will obviously disagree with that. I believe that you should never bad mouth the ex in front of the kids - it ruins the moment when they figure it out for themselves.

There is no problem with telling them there are problems and daddy has moved out, and that you would like him to come back. That doesn't lay any blame and puts you in a good light without ripping on him.

However, I would strongly advise against telling the kids that daddy has a girlfriend. Hopefully not, but they will probably soon find that out for themselves.

This next quote of yours brings tears to me eyes-

"I am doing everything humanly possible not to use the kids to hurt him. I love them far too much to do that."

That comment alone shows you are a very wise woman. I understand the hurt one feels when they are told goodbye for another, but to take it out on the kids, which ripping on the ex is doing exactly that, just lowers you to their level.

Please keep that motive on the top of your list. You will be doing the best for your kids that way.

Again, you are very wise.

UC,

This is certainly your decision, and I respect you greatly for taking it very seriously. I thought long and hard about how to handle my children (age 17-6 at the time). For me, a relationship based on honesty was a high priority.

Obviously, I do not agree with SYF's view, and she does not agree with mine. That's OK. In the end, it is you that has to live with your choices.

My FWH came home in October and has thanked me repeatedly for being honest with the children, for teaching them right and wrong. He agrees that it was the right thing to do.

I want my children to know that I will tell them the truth even when it's hard. My children know that my relationship with them is based on honesty.

My children were not damaged by knowing the truth. They were damaged by the affair. They were damaged by their father choosing to leave.

My core beliefs will differ with some here on MB, but I value honesty and think my children do just as much.

Perhaps your 3 yo is too young to "get it". But your 5 yo is not. He will learn what is right and wrong in a marriage by what you teach him.

Life as a parent isn't always about protecting our children from pain. In fact, sometimes it calls for just the opposite. Sometimes to do what is best for our children, we are required to allow them to feel hurt. That's part of some of the greatest lessons they can learn.

Really???





I don't think it is healthy to let children figure out for themselves why their family got torn apart.





I don't think worrying about putting yourself in good light is a worthy goal. Establishing an honest relationship is critical to having a solid relationship later (pre-teen and teen years)





They shouldn't be left to find this out for themselves. This information should be delivered to them by someone who loves them and has their best interests at heart (obviously not the selfish, self-centered WS). Not in some accidental, insensitive way.






Being truthful about why their daddy has left is NOT the same thing as "ripping on the ex".

Dr. Harley says you should tell young children about the affair. I will find the info and post it here for you, UC.


You don't need to take my advice or SYF. But if you want to follow MBers to do all you can to put your family back together, you might want to follow Dr. Harleys, advice. (He knows a lot more than either of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Sexymama and unconditional, it's probably good for you (unconditional) to hear multiple viewpoints then choose what is best for your situation.

Lately I just pray for wisdom and trust God to guide me in the way I should go.

Oh, I'm a he, last time I checked!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Oops! My apologies, SYF. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not a problem, that's why I injected some humor there. You will find I have VERY thick skin. I better, since I poke fun at (sometimes) those whose skin is far too thin.

Mama Bear, please post the info from Dr. Harley.

Question posed to Dr. Harley:


Q. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)

A. Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).

LMAO ROTF...

UC go ahead and vent... I probably need to vent too... only mines been building up for 5 years...

When it happens this is what ya'll <------ (Thats a TX word for all you Yankies) will see on the screen...


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********************************************************!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Actually.... my counselor said that I should start a journal... and when I'm angry make sure I make an entry about how I feel in order to verbalize it....

I've heard lots of people on here say they write journals... I never have before....

Normally I would call that pre pubescent moronic junor high crap...

But I think it's worse...

How about pre pubescent moronic elementary school crap....

Toy Story... Oh how romantic...(give me a break)

In the infamous words of Red Forman.... Dumb A$$

Based on that email I bet you $10.00 she's a spoiled little daddy's girl who TAKES TAKES TAKES ...and when she dont get what she wants... look out... HIGH maintenance emotionally...

WH won't be able to GIVE GIVE GIVE enough... When reality sets in He'll be running back...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SYF is right...

When I first told my brother about my situation I was real upset...I was ready to file for divorce and move on...he was very supportive and helped me out financially...

A few weeks later...After I calmed down... and was able to make a rational descision without being engulfed in emotion... I decided not to file for divorce...

My brother said... "Amazin... (said it just like that too) some of you're friends may tell you to kick her to the curb, file for divorce and move on... but you're the one living the situation...not them... and until they walk a mile in your shoes...I would be carful who you take advice from...Ultimately you are the one who has to make the descision about what is right for you... and what ever you do our family will support you..."

Pretty cool huh... I got a good family...

That's why this board is so good....Lots of people here have already walked miles and miles in my shoes... and I've gotten real good advice here so far...

Well I'm back. Celebrated my birthday with a day at the spa and it was wonderful. New look, new attitude. Decided to talk to the kids this weekend. Tell the the truth. Not disparaging but the truth about what Daddy has chosen to do. Can I run the script by anyone?

Got my husband's VISA bill and it's nice to see how fast waywards rack up debt. We just paid that debt off a week before he reveal his affair and he maxed it out in 8 weeks. Thank GOD it is his own debt. His GF will be sad when he has no more money to spend on her once he starts paying support, rent, bills etc.....she's only 25 I am sure she is not paying his way when she can't even pay her own $750 phone bill!

Ironically though, even though his GF still insists on their engagement he will not confirm it to me. Why? Does he realize that will mean the END of us? Does he think he could possibly look any worse than he does?

I'm trying to hang on but I'm not sure there's much to hang on to. I know a lot can happen in 3 or 6 months (look at what has happened in just over 2 months). I know he is making the biggest mistake of his life by leaving but it is his choice. Leave me fine, but the kids. Our kids are adorable.

Any advice on the script would be great.....

There may be other opinions on this...

He's fence sitting... He still hasn't made his mind up yet weather he really wants to leave you or not... That's why he hasn't confirmed it...


I've heard a lot of people on here say..."don't listen to what your WS is saying, it's all fog talk... instead observe and watch their actions... Actions speak louder than words..."

I think you're keying in on his words... watch what he does instead...This may give you a little hope...

Don't loose hope... Get some counseling/coaching from Steve or Jennifer... then work your plan... and watch his actions...You may not notice anything for a long time... but it has an effect...

Here’s an analogy about plan A… I got it from Mark…

You stand on the bank of a river. It is too wide to swim safely because of the strong current and much too deep to wade across. You pick up a rock and throw it into the water and it vanishes beneath the waves. You throw another rock and it too simply disappears under the water.

You keep throwing rocks into the river and nothing shows for all your efforts. You know by reason that the rocks are not vanishing but must be piling up beneath the surface, but you haven't seen any sign of it happening. But you throw some more rocks.

You throw 499 rocks into the river and see nothing in the way of progress. And then you throw rock number 500 and the very tip is barely visible above the water. And that is the basis for building a bridge to get to the other side.

Did you want to run a potential script by us or have us suggest one?

Wow... I just read through your whole thread and I am STILL in disbelief. I wish Vegas had odds on this A because I would bet my life savings. Keep taking care of yourself and the kids. You are being very strong and brave. Keep showing him that you are the better person because you are. Your husband is going to be whacked upside the head when the reality 2x4 hits. Given what you have posted it won't be long in coming.

That's really funny in light of the credit card bill. Think she'll even want to remain engaged when he's broke?

I've got a better grip on a script for my kids and we'll see where it goes from there. Dear Daddy left the country today. No phone call to the kids since Monday. He texted me yesterday and said nothing about flying out. He's moving on. Hopefully the fog will lift soon. Still cannot understand why he just will not admit they are engaged.....when she is broadcasting it.

My first guess is that he's not confirming his engagement because he knows how that's going to look in divorce court.

Also, are you sure that he knows he's engaged? We're not dealing with normal people here.

That was my exact thought! She (OW) may be delusional and telling everyone they are engaged and he has not a clue.

He has a clue. He just won't admit it to me. When he emails her he says they'll be married by the end of the year. When he talks to me he says, no I'm not engaged. He's just a liar.

I'm sure he's just trying to save what little character he has left. And beleive me there's not much left. He's left the country, settling into his new life away from us, with her. I do hope it sucks. I hope the reality sets in.

Actually I think he is playing both of us. What do you call it "cake-walking"? Some foundation they have.

I think you are right; he is stringing her along and has no intent on marrying her.

Oh, it will suck and it will set in. The question is when/if he will admit it to you. Judging from his character, do you think he would admit he made a mistake? It is a fantasy and all fantasies come to an end. YOU know this, WE know this and it is just a matter of time before he will too. Why did he move out of the country? Is he in a place unfamiliar to him? That alone is stressful enough let alone everything else going on. My DH lost his job back in 2004 and after a year of looking he found a job 1400 miles away. I had a lot of trouble adjusting to a place where I had never been and knew no one. Now in my situation I had my H and our 4 kids there with me. Thankfully DH found a job back here a year later and we are back “home”. Your WH moved far away and only has a virtual stranger he really doesn’t know. I suspect after time they will both start to show their true personalities and the relationship will die.

True love isn’t flowers and love letters, which is romance and just a small part of Love. True love is rubbing your loved ones back while they throw up because they have the flu. True love is knowing the whole person warts and all and still loving them. All they know of each other is the fake front they are showing each other now. They can’t hide their warts forever.

He moved back to the same tropical country where we lived for 8 years. The same place we had our children. We moved back to our home country two years agao and I fear his heart never left. He met his GF there on his last business trip. She worked the front desk at the hotel where he stayed. I know what true love is. I accepted him for who he was. He's admitted to her that he does not beleive in unconditional love. And looking back I'd agree with him. Nothing he did came without a string. He'd tell me to get a social life, to not count on him, well I did and he didn't like that.

He says he only feels guilt when he looks at me, no love, no passion. That hurts but I attribute it to the fog. I miss him dearly, the real man I married, not the devil's spawn he has become. I miss holding him, sharing hings with him. As much as he has rewritten history I know it is just the fog.

And lo and behold I got his other cc bill and that is maxed out too. Can't he see what this has done to him. Is he really happy?

And let's be real. 90% of the relationship has been online. They have spent mayb 2 weeks together since they met. How real is that? Let see how she feels when he has no $$ left to wine and dine her, or when he doesn't deposit his paychecks or when he starts lying to her. In fact he has already lied several times because he has been fooling around with me when he's not with her. What kind of foundation is that? I look forward to the day the fantasy ends.

he says to her in an email that my kids will love her, that she's a great negotiator. No amount of negotiation will help her when the kids realize who and what she is and what she has done to our family. I have accepted my share of what led to the affair but she actively pursued a marriage man and is now proudly announcing her engagement to him.

He fully expected me to kick him to the curb after D-Day but I didn't I plan A'd. I know it would've been easier to do that and it would have made all of my friends happy. Now though, it's time to Plan B time to show him what life is like without all of us. The cake-walk is over.

Its so ironic to look at my wedding ring and see "Love Forever" engraved in it. he did love me. But today it feels like he really meant I lopve you until I find someone better.

I'm sure he's promised to marry her in order to keep her. ****** how else can you keep a young 25 year old in line......

ARG... He sounds like my husband's ex-best friend. We didn't see him often because we lived in different states. When he and his wife moved here and we saw him more we began to realize he was self centered. He also was very fake. Saying things like "sure I will go bike riding tomorrow." knowing he didn't want to. Sure enough he would blow off my husband. It got to the point where my husband would hang up with him and say to me "he isn't going to do it." They were here about a year before we moved away for a year. Then we got back and about 4 months later my husband had enough and ended the friendship. The guy was 41 and was still acting like he was 18. DH realized he wasn't a real friend anyways.

Since we've been in this town for 2 years he has made ZERO friends. And I have tried. He just makes NO EFFORT. He has no idea how to nurture a friendship unless it suits him. He has written off everyone. Sad man. The only friends he likes are the ones he left in the country he's gone back to. Superficial friendships based on sports. Mind you he has always been able to maintain female friendships. I'm sure this is how this affair started. When we lived overseas he went out a lot and wondered why I never went with him. Well that's because he was jealous if I talked to any males, yet he could tak to other mates' GFs and I was supposed to be OK with that. He could get totally drunk and obnoxious and I would have to suck it up. I just stopped putting myself through the embarassment. Plus once we had kids, I stayed home and he would often go out until 4 in the morning. Then he would surf porn sites online and I was supposed to be OK with that too (when I discovered this I was 8 months pregnant!) It seems I swept a lot of things under the rug in the name of love........all my friends want me to see all of these things and realize that he was never worthy of my unconditional love.........

Well I finally told my kids the truth and it was terribly painful. But it can only get better from here. They can always count on the truth from me. I will be their safe haven. While it was painful it was liberating. I'm not a liar. Now they know we are a team and we will get through this together. As for DH, the kids can determine their future relationship I'm moving on to a dark Plan B. DH and his GF are too busy building Facebook pages for themselves on the same day I am breaking my kids' hearts. (Oh to be 25 and not a care in the world!

Hang in there. Good job on telling your kids.

You are fairly early in this to go to Plan B, but only you know what is in your heart.

I know its early I just can see how to PLAN A when the man is already ENGAGED!

Chances are excellent that he will come back. They almost always do.

Engaged is a little out there, but believe it or not, we've had still married waywards get MARRIED. Legal or not, they want to legitimize their relationship.

I would do a short Plan A - 3 months or so, and then think about Plan B.

But honestly after all he has done, would I want him back> He has become a complete alien. He is not the man I married.

We joke here all the time about aliens. It is like in the movie, "The Body Snatchers" - the alien takes over their body. They look the same, sound the same, but have turned into someone you never knew = and didn't want to know.

Your husband is behaving EXACTLY like they all do.

And he just posted pictures of hm with her on his Facebook page. And guess what they are celebrating their engagement at the same hotel we spent our wedding night IN!

Just a thought, could OW be trying to push the marriage agenda because she wants to use him as a way of getting into the USA legally?

I have several friends caught by the sham marriage scam. In one case the woman was so anxious to leg it once she had the legal papers, she left her child from a previous relationship with him as well as abandoning the one they had together . .

Nope they are both Canadian. He's in a hurry to marry becasue how else will he keep her tied to him unless she gets pregnant. It seems they've marked March 21 2010 as their wedding date. i sure hope the divorce is final by then!!

AS for the kids they are doing well. He is trying to backpeddle with them. They leep asking him why he doesn't love mommy anymore. Guess there's no need for them to know it's because he has a girlfriend.

OK so not a green card chaser but I would still bet anything that she is the one in a rush.

Sure hope the divorce goes nice and sloooooly for them :-)

UC,

Good for you for telling the children the truth. It is important that they understand WHY their family is being ripped apart. Mommies and Daddies don't just "fall out of love".

Your focus is in the right place. They need to know they can trust you, and trust only comes in a relationship based on honesty.

I'm not sure there's much to hang onto in this marriage. He just looks on me with contempt. When the kids ask him why he doesn't love me anymore, he says nothing.

UC,

It's all so typical. All FWS's have to look at us with contempt...otherwise, they would look on themselves with contempt.

Your WS is no different then any of them. He is deep into the fog. Mine was, too. There is always hope.

Do YOU still want this marriage?

Someone (I think MicheleG) asked me once, if the H I had BEFORE the A was worth fighting for. My answer was ABSOLUTELY! He was a wonderful husband pre-affair.

So, how about you? Was your H (pre-affair) worthy fighting for? No one can answer that for you. Only you know.

I would say yes.

Then stick with working the plans, UC. Whether he comes home or not, you will know that you did all you could to save your marriage and restore your family.

You will be able to look your children in the eyes and tell them you fought for their family.

I don't know whether you should do plan A or B at this point. Perhaps, those with more experience can help you discern that.

Are your finances secure? Does he plan to visit the children? Have any arrangements been made? (I'm sorry, sometimes my memory really fails me, and I am having a hard time keeping up with the few stories I am following.)

All is secure. Seems it's plan B time.

Any ideas on an intermediary for communication?

How about visitation? Is he planning to see the kids at all?

He's living 1100 miles away. Visits will be few and far between.

That doesn't mean a bit of difference. I've seen folks recover where one spouse was completely gone and there was no contact at all.

You just have to realize that the affair will end. Then he will most likely be back.

So what do I do in the mean time. Does SAA outline Plan B entirely. No contact. I have to answer the phone when he calls. Stop communicating about the kids? Stop all communication?

Absolutely no contact of any kind. You need an intermediary that will handle all communication and will ONLY pass on to you essential information about finances or kids. This will eliminate the affair drama from your life.

If your phone has caller ID, use it, and don't answer when he calls...or if he is calling to talk with the kids, let them answer it.

Do I understand correctly that there are NO plans for visitation at all? Does that mean if he decides to make a trip to where you live, he may expect to see the kids as convenient for him. Has he said ANYTHING about seeing the kids??? (I'm sorry, that must be so painful)

No real plans just time estimations, like he will visit every six weeks, maybe and expects to see the kids then.

OK I won't answer phone.

UC,

You need to have visitation clearly SET UP. For example, father will visit children every six weeks. He will pick them up Saturday at 10 a.m. and return them on Sunday at 6 p.m.

If he doesn't make it in town then, he'll need to wait until the next scheduled visit. I realize that may sound hurtful to the children, but it IS NOT, BECAUSE you are presently fighting for their family. This is part of the battle. He needs to realize that life will go on without him, that he is CHOOSING to not be involved in his children's lives, that you have a life without him, and that you have boundaries he needs to respect.

Otherwise, what happens when you and the children have plans and he decides to "pop in" and expects you to change your plans because he wants to see them?

I see that not having visitation spelled out will cause you problems later that will pull you out of a good Plan B.

As this A progresses, they WILL start LBing, and you will not be there to meet ENs, he will start bucking your Plan B. He will push whatever boundaries he can to get back into your life. You do NOT want that to happen. Once in Plan B, he doesn't get back in until he has fulfilled the requirements you outline in your Plan B letter.

Unconditional, SMB…

Just to re-affirm what SMB said…

A short story… In my first divorce I got custody of our 2 children and her son from a previous… She was ordered to pay a measly $190.00 a month in child support for 3 kids… I didn’t care about the money as long as she was an active parent… she couldn’t even do that… would pop in when she wanted… hurt the kids more than anything…I finally decided that enough was enough… I told her she needed to pick them up when she was supposed to or not at all… she went with not at all…. Went 14 months without seeing them and she lived 2 miles away… So… I took her back to court for back child support… if she wasn’t going to be an active parent then she was going to be a financially supportive one…

One other thing…. Someone said this earlier in this post ….. NEVER NEVER NEVER let him take the kids out of the country… once he does… you’re screwed… you can’t do anything legally to get them back. If he does get visitation… I would suggest supervised visitations if you’re afraid he might flee the country with them…

Well he's called the house three times and my kids don't want to talk to him.

Have you exposed this affair?

Have you told OW's parents (who may be shelling out $$ for deposits etc for this mythical wedding!) that she is engaged to a married man with young children?

OMG, what a weapon you have to destroy fantasy-land!

Also, have you exposed to his parents?

Affairs thrive in secrecy...

I told her parents and they said "she's 25 she knows what she is doing!" I have exposed to everyone. Sent the pics to his parents today because they are sweeping this under the rug. Now they can see how insane he really is!

That is called a natural consequence to an affair (and leaving your family).

That's HIS mess.

I know we'll get through this. He continues to blame me and thinks I am poisoning them against him. The truth is the truth. He moved to another country- fact. I know the consequences are his, he just likes to make me his scapegoat for everything. How blatant though to put pictures (some intimate) of himself on a public site for all to see and then invite me to see it!

Did you actually get the settlement agreement done?

Strange that its only a separation and not a divorce. I think he knows that his fling with OW isn't going to last.

I hope your settlement spells out that you have sole use of the home, and can get locks changed.
I hope it spells out custody/visitation, and that it not take place in your home.
I hope it spells out his responsibility for support.

Then go BLACK DARK PLAN B.

His pointing blame is not your problem.

Black Plan B entails what exactly?

Do not see, talk, e-mail or otherwise be aware of him whatsoever.

Have everything spelled out completely so that even if/when he comes to see the children he doesn't see you.

What about my other questions?

All those things are spelled out.

Ok -- so how often and on what schedule is he visiting the kids? Do you have an intermediary who can handle the arrangements? Can you do an online calendar to keep him updated with kids activities without have to speak or write to him? Can you set up a phone just for the kids to speak to him, so that you do not have to answer it?

Have you written a plan B letter?

Lots of questions. Oh boy. I will have to write the letter. I have caller ID so I can see when he is calling. I will find an intermediary. He plans on seeing the kids every six weeks for the weekend.

Spell out all of these little details, and close all the gaps.

Print out a calendar that specifically shows the weekends he is picking up the children at exactly what time and what time they are to be returned.

Spell out your expectations on phone calls to the children.
That it should not be after #pm.

Name your intermediary. That is who he should contact with any change to the schedule.

Make arrangements for someone else to be present for the pick-ups and drop-offs so that you do not need to see him.

Get the locks changed. He will likely feel entitled to the use of your home. I seriouly doubt he has considered the price of hotels, airfare, feeding and entertaining 2 small children out of their home for a whole weekend.

Does your agreement spell out that OW is not allowed to be present during his visits?

Yes they cannot meet with the OW until after the D.

I will look into all of these things.

he just takes them to his moms where she does all the work.

Sounds like Peachy. Her Wayward even took the OW to the same place for the honeymoon and they decorated their new place like hers. These guys think they want something new, then start trying to turn her into you and recreate your own past.

I'd drop her a note to congratulate her on having the engagement party at that hotel because you KNOW how nice it is and have fond memories of your wedding night there.

What point does it make. He has been with me about 10 times since January, she knows and doesn't care. So I don't think it would matter to her that he took her to the same hotel.

If she's not bright enough to realize what an insult it is, at least maybe you could make her obsess for a while on your motives.

Hi all, it's been a week and I must say I'm growing weak. Starting to feel like maybe at 37 with two young children who would give me a second glance.

Should I send my husband a PLan B Letter. Is there any point. He is living in another country and gallivanting all over town with his girlfriend. Doesn't that say it's over? Is there a marriage to fight for. So much of me is saying just let it go, hang onto your dignity, your children and move on.

My kids, esp. my son is struggling with him not being here. He misses him dearly but won't talk to him on the phone. I know this is a natural consequence of what has happened but it still hurts me to see him hurting.

All of the plan B letters talk about ending the affair. I don't think he sees it as an affair any longer. Starting to feel like I'm the loser who can't let go, and it has only been less than three month. Am I just fighting a losing battle? Am I better off without him? All my friends think so. They see what he has said and done and find none of it excusable. I only find some of it excusable because I believe he is in a thick fog.

My friends saw him with her the other night and it seems she thrives on the drama of it. Constantly looking over at their table. She wants them to know she's happy to have stolen a married man with two children. What kind of a woman does that?

Most of my friends live where they are and have asked me to visit. What do I do if I see them together? Ignore them, walk out? Wish them well? It's not like I am divorced! It's been three months! These two have only spent a MONTH physically together (the rest is online) and they are engaged. As you can see I am having a lot of trouble accepting this!

Sometimes I hate how much I still love him after all that he has said and done to me. And no one understands that except you guys!

Without appearing flirty...I would. I prefer women with kids and the fact that you have been through this makes you no less worthy of love and a chance at happiness.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Maybe in my next mariage I need to find a man who's been through what I have.

Feeling sorry for myself tonight. Overwhelmed.

Have hope. Affairs always end. Are you getting child support?

I'm right here UC. Staying at home tonight. I truly, truly understand your sadness. It's ok to feel sorry for yourself. Own it and fall asleep. It always seems to get better in the morning.

B - I need to keep hearing you say that. The rest of the world around me thinks I am just plain stupid.

So I call my husband to find out when he is going to sign the separation papers, confirming support, and find out he was in an accident last night.

He's crying when he tells me. I asl if he's OK, what happened? He's got scrapes on his arms, legs and face. Why do I feel anything for him? He has shown me NO compassion whatsoever.

So I ask why he's crying and he says: "I'm not doing this." I guess that means he is not getting into it with ME.

I'm starting to see that maybe his choices are getting to him. He doesn't want me to care for him at all....so I then asked, when can I expect to hear from you regarding the separation agreement? It is so hard for me to be callous, yet so easy for him.

He has no money, barely any friends, now he's been hurt and this is what he wants- but he has his girlfriend/fiancee. Why is he purposely self destructing? Why does he HAVE TO hit rock bottom?

Please help me get through this. I am not him. I care.

Unconditional,

I read something the other day from Mortorman about how the bible says a marriage should work. I'll see if I can find a link for the post. I only got to read the first couple of posts but it seemed like an excellent read.

One of the things that was written was that in the bible it says something like this... “husbands love your wives like Christ loves the church”. In other words “Agape love.” Unconditional Love...Love without expecting anything in return. Even when they’re being terribly ugly. The reason I bring this up is because sometime love takes a strange form.

I love my children. But sometimes I have to let them make their own mistakes in order for them to learn from it. If I rescue them every time they’re about to make a mistake they never learn for themselves and continue to make the same mistake over and over until they learn for themselves.

For example: If my child was about to touch a hot stove I might tell them “Don’t touch that! It’s hot! You’ll get burned.” I can tell them that until I’m blue in the face but they will still want to touch that stove. And the minute I’m not around, guess what… they touch the stove and get burned. It’s unfortunate that they had to do it but that’s what has to happen for them to TRULY understand why they shouldn’t touch a hot stove. If I save my children from the hurt of learning from their mistakes they’ll live sheltered little lives until they grow up. When they get to adulthood they won’t have the tools to deal with the real world because I sheltered them from reality.

Get it!! You’re husband is living in a fantasy world right now. A great big dose of reality is what he needs to wake up and realize what his life is going to be like because of HIS actions. If that’s in the form of him realizing that he has no money, no friends, gets hurt, finds out his girlfriend is a immature vampire brat… then let him figure it out…

In order for him to TRULY learn from his mistake you have to let him fall down and skin his knees. Otherwise you will be enabling him to continue his affair. You can't sooth his owies every time he comes crying to you.

This is not harsh … This is truly compassionate…. This is a little tough love…. And he needs it if he’s going to make a turnaround.

You need to be strong for you, your kids and for him… You’re the only adult in your marriage who’s living in reality right now. So be strong and make good decisions.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Unconditional,

Here's something from Pepperbands carrot and the stick of plan A. This may help you when it comes to being nice and showing compassion.

And here's a link to the post:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

Great advice. Helps me put things in perspective.

I'm planning to visit my friends for a much needed respite in the same country where my WS ran away to. Tons of friends thre, planning some nights out and a day at the spa, walks on the beach etc.. Hoping to make it the start of the new me....Anyway, question is, would you tell WS you were coming or not?

Hmmm... That's a good question. The veterans should have a better answer than I do.

But here's my answer anyway. If you're in plan A, I would let him know and see if he wants to see you. Coffee, or a lite lunch.

But if you have another motive for going... like to check up on him... Why go? You know he's cheating and seeing it for yourself is only going to make you more hurt and angry.

If you're in Plan B.... I Wouldn't let him know. Might not even go if I thought I may run into him.

Can I let him know once I am there? I know about the A not really wanting to see him and her together.

I think someone else who's more expiranced needs to give you some input...

ask yourself this first...and answer truthfully.

Am I going to the foreign country to work on me and making me a better person or am I going because I'm obsessing about my husband.

If you're truely going to work on you then go and don't worry about if you see him or not.

Just my opinion... I think the vets need to chime in here...

I guess it sure saves me money to be able to stay with friends and hang out with them instead of going somewhere else by myself and paying for a hotel. I think it's only obsessing if I follow him around and call him all day and night. I would prefer NOT to see them and truly enjoy myself. And this place is where my closest friends, who have been supporting me, live....

I hardly think it's fair that I can never visit my friends because they happen to live in the same place as he does. I lived there for 8 years.

I can understand that...

If my wife and I were from the same home town and she had an affair with someone there... I'm sure I would want to go home to my family and my support group at some time.

Is that about the same?

A- yes that's about it. My best friend is there. They are all there and they've been with me every step of the way. My JOB is to walk away with dignity if I see them together. And I have to prepare myself for that to happen. But it's not the plan to go out of my way to find them. I have to say the thought of locking eye with the predator fills me with dread but I am the bigger person and can walk away.

You respond fast....lol....

I definately can relate to you wanting to go "home".

If it's good for you and your soul then go to your support group. That's my 2 cents worth...lol

I'm guess I'm lucky because I have a very big family with alot of doting sisters... (4 brothers and 6 sisters... I'm the Baby <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )