I have read so many posts here where the betrayed spouse ends up shaking their heads in disbelief when they see who their Wayward left them for.

I am wondering if this is because:
1) They are insecure and this gives them a chance to feel superior?
2) They are able to exert control over the OP as they can be in charge?
3) They are so needy in one area they will cling on to anyone who looks like they can fill the void?

Is this a delayed "They will never go out with me cause they are too good for me" syndrome? And it astounds me how long they can remain in the fog. What is it up to 2 - 3 years of no contact?... please tell me this can't be so.

In any case it seems that it is yet another red flag to give insight into what the wayward spouse is responding to. Who ever would have thought that if you are reasonably good looking, responsible, loyal, trustworthy, intelligent, hard working..... That these qualities would actually work against you.

I dont really know but thinking about it, perhaps the married waywards have limited choices if they want a lover outside the marriage. Think about it. Who else but a complete dirtbag would sleep with another mans wife?

No one would. The waywards are NOT going to ever get a GOOD person, a decent person, or a moral person. NO.

They are going to get an ugly, dirtbag like themselves. This is the only choice they have. No one else would enter into that kind of adulterous relationship. No one else would be that terrible. They have to be terrible to make love with another mans wife. They have to be terribly stupid to do that also.

Can you see a wayward spouse meeting a really good, attractive, nice, sweet, moral and decent person and trying to convince them to have sex with them??

That kind of person WOULD NOT TOUCH ANOTHER MANS WIFE OR ANOTHER WIVE'S HUSBAND. They would be too good a quality person to ever think of doing that.

No, the waywards have to pick people with no morals, drinkers, the addicted, diseased, shifty, stupid, homeless or mentally unstable to seduce and convince and lie to and draw into an affair.... since this is who is available to them being as they are MARRIED,,,and all!

No good or smart person would ever think of hurting a sacred marriage by touching or starting an affair with someone's spouse.

Who ever would have thought that if you are reasonably good looking, responsible, loyal, trustworthy, intelligent, hard working..... That these qualities would actually work against you.

This kind of person, a good decent person, would stay far away from a spouse of another person. They would never want to be tempted by or think of touching someones spouse even if that spouse tried to seduce them or lied to them. It is only "another person with no morals and no brains who would ever enter into an adulterous affair.

Adulterous spouse's choices of lovers are limited. To people such as themselves. No one else will have them...they are MARRIED and most people will respect that.

Of course, they're affairing down.

By definition, anyone that would do that kind of thing is low-rent in the first place.

Sometimes being low-rent is a temporary condition, of course. Proof comes in the FWS's that post here and R their marriages.

But for some it's a way of life.

What Bubbles said.

And if its a way of life.. The Wayward is the answer to prayer for their life..

One can only hope that Waywards will come to their senses quickly. We have to let reality come down on them and hope that they won't run away from the truth. Many people spend their life running from the truth and their marriage is one of the places they think they can hide from personal responsibility.

The BS ends up being hurt but ultimatley gets set free. The Wayward has that choice but probably would rather hide with their excuses.

Its a nasty business all around hmm?

Hi BCB !


I think the answer lies in all the above, plus some more.

Some WS, particularly WWs seem to affair down so that OP clearly does not present an alternative to their BS. Almost as if there is a subconscious buffer in place to prevent an affair marriage ensuing.

Finally, Harley's model of the Lovebank is no respecter of persons: whoever superinvests in our lovebank can engender feelings of "love" that can lead to an affair whether they are upscale or downmarket.

In my own case OM was such a life cripple I was hurt that Squid could ever consider him as a partner. But hey, as she said to me in her affair pomp "he is the exact opposite of you". I said then "thank you I have rarely been more complimented".

all blessings

Hi Bubbles !

Most of the FWS I have met or worked with have not WANTED to be tempted by the OP, at least not before mutual lovebank-filling escalated. Usually the initial EN-meeting is instinctive and unintended.

WS are not a separate lower breed than we who have not committed adultery, Bubbles, they are just sinners whose sins happen to have far greater consequences than some you and I have committed.

Finally your assertion that I'm afraid is probably not true. With adultery occurring in almost sixty five percent of marriages "most" folks would seem to succumb to the temptation of adultery.

Happy new year !

I agree with the idea the OP are always immoral scumbags. The hard part is that I have to accept that my W was able to stoop to that level, even if it was only temporary.

It is still hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that my W could not see through all of the crap OM was telling her. He was telling her how beautiful, and sexy she is, (which BTW is one of her EMs that I always did a pretty good job of meeting if I do say so myself). But, she was still eating all of that crap up with a giant spoon. All of this was via facebook chats, some texting, and a few phone conversations. That is up until the day she went to meet him in a hotel room.

OM was married, but separated. He was telling my W that he wanted to save his own M while he was convincing her that her own M was not worth saving. How could she be so blind, and stupid not to see through his line of bs, and that he didn�t really care about her or her happiness. He was just trying to lure her into bed, and it worked.

I am still trying to figure out how such a beautiful, intelligent, strong woman with high morals, and integrity could fall so completely for such a scam orchestrated by such a lowlife piece of crap.

He had her so completely fooled that she was ready to throw away a really good marriage, and rip our family apart. She even used her own family (children, parents, and sister) to help keep her secret.

Not all OP are married, the OW in my sitch was single and she was not ugly or stupid as a matter of fact she was very attractive and had a couple of degrees, she definitely had no morals or integrity though because she chases married men all the time.

Almost, but not always. There are certainly lying scumbag WHs that convince their OWs that they are single. These OWs are usually devastated when they discover the truth. Once in a while they show up here. I do feel for them, but they are the only OP's that I feel for.

TTF, Your wife was the OP in her situation. Is she an immoral scumbag ?

BTW the "married but separated" thing is probably a lie. Affairees lie a lot to each other and everyone else.

OM in my sit told my Squid that his R was in the toilet and that was a fat lie.

"I have read so many posts here where the betrayed spouse ends up shaking their heads in disbelief when they see who their Wayward left them for."

The less desireable OP's want someone in their life and because of market demand are willing to settle for what ever they can get. Sharing a married person to them is better then no person.

For the OP's that are highly desireable because of market demand are out there for the ego boost of how many notches they can put on their pistol grip.

Tabby
I stand corrected. Sometimes the OP is fooled into getting involved with a M person. That is some pretty sick stuff also.

Bob
I am still struggling with all of the aspects of what my W did, including getting involved with a Married man. I really don't know a whole lot about the OM other than what my W told me that he told her. I am pretty sure that there are a lot of things that he told her that weren't true. She fell for it, and that is another hurt that I am trying to get past.

I have heard that statement about affairing up many times and it is actually one of the main points in the book Melody has != reason to not have an affair.

But the thing that strikes me is that if your WH/WW is affairing down, then the OP is affairing UP! so you don�t always affair down (or up for that matter). what seems to be more common is that affair partners are not LOGICAL as Dr. Harley says.

I�ve given this some though but I don�t realize what the key issue about which they are not "logical" or similar is. Morally they are both in the same boat.

Bob, my H was the OP in OW's marriage, and yes, he was an immoral scumbag. Any level of involvement in another person's marriage made him that, but in addition to the basic fact, my H:

Screwed OW in her marital bed. He spent at least one whole night there on a rare occasion when her H and two children were all away on separate trips.

Went abroad with OW when she was working. On at least one of these occasions her H wanted to go and was talked out of it so that my H could go.

Sent text messages to OW's phone that were discovered by her 15 year-old son. Her son ran out of credit one day and pinched his mother's phone without asking. He read "hundreds" of "disgusting" sex messages between her and my H. He showed them to his 17-year old sister, and between them they decided that they must never tell their father because the marriage would break up. They knew that it had almost broken up over their mother's previous affair. They kept this terrible secret to themselves and occasionally looked at the phone and saw the ongoing affair. I cannot imagine what this did to them.

When their father told them of the affair, after I exposed to him some 4 years later, the son immediately said "is it the English guy?" OWH, horrified, asked what he knew of this and he told him about the text messages that he had read years earlier. Those poor kids. My H took a crucial part of their childhoods away from them.

Back to my H: He went abroad with OW on my daughter's 15th birthday when she was working with his company for work experience. She was there for two weeks, having a lovely time, except for the final two days, when he left her to travel to central London on the tube in the rush hour, and do her job and eat lunch alone, so that he could screw OW in a hotel in Bratislava. He kissed her on the birthday morning he left, told her that he was sorry but work was work, that she must be grown up, and then he put on his work suit, picked up a briefcase and left her, to go and have sex as I've described.

There are many more "scumbag" things he did, but I consider these the worst, and quite enough for this thread!

He began to stop being a scumbag the day he gave up that job. He is not a scumbag any more, but there was a long de-scumbagging process. He was a complete and utter scumbag both for having an affair and for being an OP. Wouldn't you say the same about Squid?

How so? First off, one has to be a wayward to affair up or down. A single OP, while being involved in an affair, is not cheating on a spouse so there's no up or down to go from. Two waywards in an affair (i.e. both are WSs as well as OPs) are preditors on both their own marriages and their OP's marriages. From the wayward's perspective, the fact that their OP is scummy enough to go for a married person makes them automatically lower than their BS. This is in addition to any other feature - age, beauty, wealth, social status, intelligence, etc. And interestingly enough, many OPs seem to fall short of the BS on many of these factors as well.

In my case, OW is older; any "beauty" is fabricated with hair-dye, tanning salons and anti-wrinkle cream; she works a minimum wage job, uneducated, very unintelligent and has no family wealth and only a few friends that she works with. From OWH's side, my WXH is shorter, bald, has a lower paying job with no pension, no assets or savings, no friends of his own, has an education he never used and no particularly useful or marketable skills. Even aside from the scumminess of being an OP, he's a step or two below her BH. Absolutely, they BOTH affaired down - in all respects.

It sounds like your WW and my WW were twins separated at birth.

James1:13-15 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

So how can anyone affair up? They can't! It's impossible.

When I consider my actions for what they were; evil & sinful, there is no way to exclaim anything other than, I stepped DOWN in order to participate in such a heinous crime.

I fully agree with tst. There is no up in adultery. It's all down...way down.

In my sitch, OM was single. If you saw him, you'd say, huh???? The only thing I can figure is, at that point, I was so self-centered that anyone who met the needs I had would fit the bill. I'm still trying to figure out what the blank I was thinking. It was like trading a hero from a Bronte novel for someone from the cast of Dumb and Dumber. Thank God my Bronte hero decided to stick with me

I doubt if either my W or OM even considered the affair up or down issue. He was only interested in getting her into bed, and she was totally consumed by the fact that she was getting all of that attention from someone new. So much so that she no longer cared about right or wrong.

SC

Yeah, Squid did some pretty unpleasant things too.. * sigh *

anyway..from what bubbles wrote HERE for example :



... she seems to think that adulterers are scumbags who manifest this in adultery rather than becoming scumbags for committing adultery.

I could be misinterpreting of course, but if this is what she means I have to disagree for a few reasons.

Firstly Squid, for example, had been a good person for much of her life prior her A and since it. Nobody who did not know of her adultery would categorize her as a "scumbag". In fact a good few who DO know of it do not categorize her in that way.

I do not accept that WS or OPs are always a breed apart of particular propensity for evil. Harley hasn't found that in his decades of research and counseling. Yes there are serial adulterers / OPs who are wicked, but most I have seen , known or worked with are just people who did not protect their weaknesses.
What they did was evil and hurtful, but this came from their humanity IMO, not some innate "scumbagness".

Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, I need to believe that Squid is a good person who sinned and required forgiveness in order to recover a marriage with her. If I thought she was scum just waiting for another affair how could I recover ?

finally as a Christian I have to see the power of sin and redemption: I must look upon others as God looks upon me.

Why would any of us bother to recover a M with a scumbag ?

I also believe that anybody without active boundaries could fall into an affair. They just need their $LB filled.

All blessings

"... she seems to think that adulterers are scumbags who manifest this in adultery rather than becoming scumbags for committing adultery. "

I guess i do think this way...mainly because I look at things from my own viewpoint with my strong morals and boundaries.

I should not be talking anyway since the only affairs I was exposed to were from an old boyfriend who cheated on me. That is not the same thing as a marriage. As I remember he had weak boundaries and wanted a lot of admiration. He was not a total dirtbag but i looked at him as if he was AFTER I saw what he was capable of.

Are there waywards who need thier needs filled BOTH BY THE SPOUSE AND THE OTHER PERSON...you know...at the SAME TIME?

What about when the spouse was filling all those needs but the wayward NEEDED more needs filled, or fuller needfilling done by the other lover????

Is there such a thing as needing endless "needfilling" by whomever???? In the marriage or outside the marriage? Is this a selfish spouse or what?

They're called cake-eaters, Bubbles, and they're quite common.

As far as if it takes a scumbag to be wayward vs. being wayward makes you a scumbag, I think it could be either one or both. There truly are some scumbag waywards. I consider mine to be one and he's probably not even in the bottom half of those described on this board. There are also those that are decent people who do scumbaggy things. This is probably a requirement to ever become a true "F"WS. The gut-wrenching difficulty as a BS is trying to figure out if yours is the former or the later. You really WANT your WS to be a decent person who did something wrong, but by the time it's done the damage is the same and you can't tell anyway.

I think you could be right Tabby that by the time the damge is done it is hard to tell which one they are/were.

I was doing way more to meet my Ws needs as I percieved them to be than she was doing to meet mine. There is nothing I would not have done for her. It just wasn't enough.

I kind of disagree with Dr. Hs idea that anyone is capable of infidelity under the right conditions. If a person has a stong enough sense of committment, and integrity, they would just leave an irrepairable marriage instead of being unfaithful to it.

I'm sure I'll get some responses to that remark.

I think maybe as a BS people pray they couldn't ever let it happen to them. At any rate, why not just leave the marriage if you want to date? That seems to be the easiest way and the least hurtful to the marriage partner and the family. I know people who have told their spouses they just want out!! DUDE

I think it's a form of madness. Some people would never think of having an affair, then all of a sudden, someone comes along and starts meeting needs that person didn't even know they were lacking and... presto! The madness takes over.

Why don't they just leave first? Because the madness (we had an earlier discussion about addiction that I don't want to revisit) bends normal sense and right thinking.

There is a great line in Alcoholics Anonymous on page 30 that fits right into this scenario: "The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death."

Hey there, TTF,

I'll bite. In the case of many a BS, it is exactly that "strong sense of commitment" that keeps them from leaving. I am committed to my marriage and my family. I know what my WW was like for so many years, so I KEEP FIGHTING for recovery. The tricky part is fighting the good fight while LITTLE TO NONE of my emotional needs are being met. Eventually, someone can appear who is willing and able to meet those needs.

Now think of someone stranded in the desert who finally gets to drink from that flask full of cold water. It's wonderful, it's instant relief, it's immediate satisfaction.

TTF, THAT is called conditions that make anyone susceptible.

So what do I do? I stay thirsty......

TB

I think this is what I experienced when I talked to the guy from my divorce care group. He and his wife are separated and she started dating a guy about 8 months after their separation. She has been traveling with him so you know where they are in the relationship.

Her "still" Husband explained to me she was not totally happy in her new relationship, and they have been getting together and having sex. The husband was telling me he thought he was sticking it to the boyfriend by seeing his wife (which I am now thinking might be some sort of display of bravado). So I have since had coffee with this guy who told me he does not think he can meet his wife's needs, as he could never make her happy, but he really enjoys their times together on their "dates", and according to him that is one area they both seemed to enjoy in their relationship. He told me that his STBxW is not happy with the amount of sex she is getting with the new guy and she knows her STBxH has a high drive. And from what I can determine this guy seems to be OK with this arrangement for now as he is not dating anyone.

(My original post on this was - Just when you think you've seen it all)

I am not sure what really goes on in peoples heads emotionally and morally in a case like this but I guess some people can make a situation like this work for them.

In BC Canada where I live separation is the division of the property and the divorce is the filing of the legal document to dissolve the marriage one year after the separation. So in this guys case they are still legally married but they are just waiting for the one year time limit and they can file the papers themselves.

Theoretically, he is not wayward for sleeping w/ his own wife even though its nasty since she has a boyfriend.(or whatever) DUDE

This is what I say when I look at my XH's OW. I was SHOCKED when I saw her! She is so different from me. I am college educated, have a good career and am fairly attractive. She is a high school drop out, chain smokes cigars, drinks jumbo BUDS and paints houses for a living. [and screws married men] The first time I clapped eyes on her, I was standing behind this woman in line at a c-store on a Monday night. She was wearing painters clothes and was buying a JUMBO BUD. The cashier, who was familiar with her, said 'you are starting early this week!' She commented - and I will never forget this - "we are going to tie one on!" here she is, huntin' with my XH

Those deer are absolutely beautiful.

Dang, Mel... if that pic isn't a fake, those jumbo Buds must've been goggles for your xH to wear. Otherwise it couldn't have worked!

MrsW says she has "billy bob teef!" I thought I was going to wet myself laughing!

check this out

Quick! Who's got the Depends?

She caught on fast!

Yikes ML! I don't have any pics handy -- thank GOD!! Just picture icky long hair, clothes that have never seen an iron, and a deep and abiding interest in becoming an "indie" rock star. EWWWW.

I've seen your pic on the MB photo album, Mel. Your XH is a blind idiot!

Is that really your xh and his ow? They are both FUGLY..DUDE

Okay, shouldn't SHE be wearing the neon attire so no one mistakes HER for native wildlife????

Wow, that was low even by MY standards......

I am of ther opinion also that people choose to satisfy their desires.

Too many people give way to sin and are chained to their emotions. They lose sight of what emotion are supposed to be. We are responsible for our emotions. They are not supposed to rule our decisions. Emotions are supposed to be the appreciaters of the good things we have.

So this is probably accepted by everyone right? So what would make the difference? IMO it is fear, also an emotion.

Coming from a Christian viewpoint and certainly just my opinion...

The emotions are what gets used for good and evil and is where the battleground is.

When Peter walked on the water,(symbolic for the emotions), he fell as soon as he took his eyes off Christ and saw that "HE" was walking on the water. In other words, when Peter tried to rise above his emotions with his own strength, he fell in and had to be pulled out by Christ.

Fear of consequences is the best yet preventative to bad behavior. If you are certain that you will not get away with it, you wont do it.

The lack of thinking that results from the "If it feels good do it" attitude we allow ourselves,(yes I said allow because we must see that we have a free volition and allow crap even if we get tricked) to have can slowly change our brain chemistry untill we "feel" we have no choice if we don't "Do this" or "Do that".

If we can see that we are weak individuals and need an inner law,(spiritual law), to rule us and that as humans we just don't have the tools on our own then we will look up for help.

Problem is that we are so smart... hehehe YA

We all can fall people, Its arrogant not to see this. Yes there are people here that probably never will and have very strong morals. Thank God for you. Seriuosly. But I thank God not you and will allways do so. Im sorry but I have never met anyone worth a crap that never made a mistake somewhere morrally that didn't admit it.

Yes they allways affair down.. May God kick their AR$E

AWESOME POST...DUDE

I think you have highlighted an important point. At some point a shift has to take place where thinking and rationale give way to trying to satisfy or assuage a negative feeling. After all we have been persuaded to think we have a "right to be happy". If I am not feeling happy I must pursue "my happiness" at all cost.

In the scripture we are told to rejoice in our tribulation, as it seems our character is developed and refined in the times of difficulty rather than the fun times. It seems today we are adverse to enduring through difficulty, we must cling to and demand our right to be happy. So fleeing to what looks like a reprieve, garners greater appeal, and the slippery slope of moral decay begins. The self must be served regardless of the impact these actions may have on those around us. The concept of sacrifice is scorned and selfishness is worshiped.

So how does anyone get their needs met if the people you are with choose to focus only on themselves?
Or if they do give out, do these individuals only give out in order to get what they want?
At what point does the relationship turn into one based on manipulation?
How can this be deemed love?

Is this why the folks here call this the FOG of the affair? As I write this it truly does seem to be a fantasy and I am beginning to see the reasons why most affairs do not last.

This brings me to another question referring to my divorce care coffee partner.
Is it considered an affair when they have been legally separated for 8 months? It seems in his mind it is only a matter of the paper work to legally dissolve the marriage. The assets have already been split.
I trying to understand why he is continuing to pursue the sexual component of the relationship when he seems resigned to the concept he cannot meet all her needs?
Is this something that happens more often than we think, its just that people are not willing to talk about it?

I find I am at a loss in how to respond to this fellow, I know he is hurting but I don't know what to say in this case. When I ask him why he is doing this he just says he misses her.

Thanks luroosi! luroosi, I don't need to see your pictures to know that you are a beautiful person. And I believe ironing is way overrated. Why iron when you have a clothes dryer!

...and a DH who knew before marriage that I dont do ironing.
There are alot of fabrics that dont need ironing avaiable now too.

Oh yeah, the OW... uhg lee. Not the uglyist I have seen, but certainly well hit by the ugly stick.

Are we allowed to put up pics of OP's cos I have a couple

It's safe to say my exww affaired down. Heck, the guy has no teeth! BTW, I got rid of my iron when we divorced!

Were they answering a casting call for the sequel to "Deliverance"? He sure has a perrrtty mouth.

Oh, I didn't mean that description for me. That was OM. I, of course, am ravishingly beautiful - aren't ALL southern women???

The ones with teeth are okay.

That would be a NORTHERN version of Deliverance, my fine yankee friend! I hear tell he doesn't take her huntin anymore because her smokin them cigars scares off the deer.

Lil, ironing or camping is not on my resume. That is what clothes dryers and the dry cleaners are for. ugh!

Can your OW beat my OW in the UGMO department? [ugmo=mo' ugly!]

oh whew! This be true, of course!

How'd they get those deer to remain so calm? Every time I try to pet one, it runs away or attacks me. Yet, these two veritable St Francis of Assisis are able to stoop by them and pet them.

EXCUSE ME??? Southern wimmin are hotties! That OW pic I posted is ONE OF YOURS!! A YANKEE GAL!

you have issues!!

Wild boar, in Texas?

MrsW says the OW has "Billy bob" teef!

Apparently, I have all my teeth, you yankee dawg!! Here is my picture!

Yeah, but do they need to be white or is that placing the bar too high???

And Z, while I'm at it, is there a preference between a full set of yellow-ish choppers or a semi-set of white ones???

Inquiring minds want to know!

I understand the need to do this, really I do.

It's never been a part of MB. There are other websites where you can call the WS or the OM any name you want.

I joined MB as a WS because I'd read everything on the main website. Guess what? Dr Harley addresses us WS's. Not only that, he gives us guidance and rules and boundaries and reading the main website was what gave me hope and gave me a plan. I printed every single thing and I got it bound.

That's how "ugly" I am. My H actually thinks I'm beautiful and sexy and funny and looks at me like he can't believe his luck.

Gee, maybe that's why we're recovered and happy.

"No, the waywards have to pick people with no morals, drinkers, the addicted, diseased, shifty, stupid, homeless or mentally unstable to seduce and convince and lie to and draw into an affair.... since this is who is available to them being as they are MARRIED,,,and all!"

Y'know something Bubbles, you really irritate me.

You know what, Kiwi? I have been here much longer than you and I assure you that stating true facts about very ugly people has always been a part of MB. You may have missed it, for whatever reason, but it has always been here. Affairs are very ugly and so are the people who engage in them. MB is one of the few forums where the truth can be spoken, thank God.

Of course affairs are ugly but Dr Harley addresses WS's in a way that reached me. It was because of that that I've been here a long time too. As far as I know "ugly" has not been used by any of the Harleys.

Mel, when I came here and read "this is how you stop your A, this is how you get over your A" it was the most eye popping, hopeful, exciting thing I'd ever read. NO other website even came close to addressing this.

I have to add that when I joined the forums (with great trepidation and fear) one of the first posts I read was to do with big hair and aquanet and I was completely nonplussed and felt totally out of my depth.

Luckily, I persevered. Mel, I'm not ugly. I WAS ugly. Now I'm so happy, so content,so in love with my H. I just can't describe it.

But Dr Harley has not posted in this thread so I have no idea what the relevance is of this comment. The posts here are made by posters. And they all know that adultery and adulterers are ugly.


Yep, it was ugly. Affairs are ugly and so are their participants. When I came here I was attacked by a wayward wife in a call out thread on my 13th day and felt totally out of my depth. But, so what? You were "non-plussed;" I was "nonplussed." So what?

We are big gurls and no one here has an entitlement to not be "non-plussed."

I agree with you, Mel.

Kiwi, as a BS, I feel I have a right to opine however way I see fit regarding the behavior, looks, interests, hobbies, favorite colors, and/or shoe sizes of waywards and their compadres in crime. Sorry, but I do. I think the pain and anguish that I have endured gives me that right. Of course, a wayward's recovery, contrition, and their whole-hearted commitment to making amends may, indeed, alter those opinions considerably -- but I reserve the right to play both judge and jury.

As Mel stated, affairs are ugly. And comparing them (and those participating in them) to a mouth full of rotten, gap-filled, blackened, and festering choppers seems to be completely appropriate to me.

Sorry if I come across a bit heavy-handed, but this kinda strikes a nerve with me.

TB

Mel, it was an attempt at humour. I just didn't know where I was going to fit with all these people who knew each other so well. That's all I meant. People who talked about "big hair" and had so many inside jokes I didn't think I'd ever last the distance.

Wow, I don't know where all this is coming from. I read the website, I got hope, I saw someone (the Harleys) and something that really talked to me (the letters and answers on the main website) and I was on my way to recovery.

I don't know why you want to knock me for that.

I've had a wayward wife tell me "F*** you" but I persevered with that too.

And here we both are years later!

lol and still laffin' about your big hair

Thank God for Aquanet!

Sacred icons of beauty that must never be derided:

Aquanet or it's accross the pond fav of mine, Aussie mega Styling Spray
Performing preference hair color 8.5 beige blonde
pouwdering fundation and under-eye concealer
Crest White Strips used twice a year
a dusting of blush, powder and eyshadow, a line under the eyes, and two coats of mascara

2 assistants to zip the dress, a pair of spanx to flatten the tummy and tush, extremely high heels, and deep red lipstick

Boy, we really suffer to be beautiful, as my mom used to say.

A true picture of southern grace and beauty. A lady can't survive without Aquanet and little hair teasing..

As a wise person on this forum once said, "hope is the one thing satan hasn't figured out how to kill."

I believe in the truism: "HATE THE SIN, BUT LOVE THE SINNER."

Nothing wrong with putting a hideous and ugly face to the sin of adultry, or for that matter, any sin.

I believe in loving the sinner back to repentance, recovery, forgiveness, and salvation.

All of the above: PRICELESS !!!!!!!!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

The underlying truth about Hate the sin, love the sinner....I don't believe you are truly loving the sinner UNTIL you hate the sin. Someone who loves me would never want me to continue such hideous behavior. I love my kids, but if tey go all rebellious on me, I am going to do whatever it takes, whether they like it or not, to show them the ugly truth of their choices. Then, like the dad of the prodigal sone, when they come back down that road after reaching the end ofthemselves, I'll crush them with hugs and kisses and tears.

I hope and pray that never happens. My brother is 37, and we are all still waiting for him to "come home."

Sin really ticks me off.

That is so well said, luroosi. Defending sinners is not an act of love, it is an act of hate.

I do believe the predicate part of the statement was "hate the sin."

Based on that, I don't see us in disagreement.

All Blessings,
Jerry

My WW definitely 'affaired down'. The guy she was communicating with was so opposite of her in many ways. He was over-weight and out of shape - she believes in physical fitness (we're both into exercising, eating right etc.) He smokes - she thinks smoking is disgusting. He looks 15 years older than his age. He has a foul mouth - his Facebook postings were crude - and she does not like foul language. He's extremely liberal, and we're both more on the conservative side. It's like he was opposite of what she stands for and is attracted to.

But, she said he 'knew her and understood her like no one else' and was 'sweet and understanding' etc. etc.

I just don't get it.

This bears repeating to me -- waywards are IDIOTS. I know this because I were one. Waywards are the epitome of illigical irrationality. They need specially crafted tazers to be zapped with repeatedly. Maybe a well-placed taze in late 2005 would have rendered me incapacitated in 2006!

Shinethrough, I hope you don't think I was disagreeing. Your post just inspired that thought. Sometimes my words comes out strangely.

Because it's impossible to "affair up"

Someone willing to have an affair starts at negative infinity. Since no one is positive infinity, the only way you go having an affair is down.

It's just that simple.

Even if they "look" good, one is ALWAYS affairing down.

lurioosi2,

No problem at all with any misunderstanding.

My point was that it would become most difficult to not continue hating an ongoin and unrepentant sinner. But it conflicts with God's instuction to not only love your brother, but to love your enemy as well.

Sometimes I feel only God is capable of loving your enemy, but it is nonetheless, a command that He has imposed on us. I must admit, I feel quite helpless in loving my FWW's OM.

But that's on me, no one else.

All Blessings,
Jerry

BCBoy,

First of all let me say how sorry I am to hear what you are going through...been there myself so I truly do KNOW.

Yes, it is astoundingly common for a (previously/seemingly) upright, devoted, honorable husband/wife to "affair-down"--often WAAAAYYY down--when they become wayward. So often they seem to become addicted to someone that, on so many levels, seems so far 'beneath' the WS, the BS, and the kind of person they would ever have considered to a suitable romantic partner beforehand. Been there, too...I'll spare you the sordid details.

I struggled with this for a long time as well. After doing a lot of reading, research, and observation, I came to learn a key fact that is hard to accept at first but vitally important for any BS to understand.

The affair is not really a reflection of the BS being 'bad' or the infidelity-partner being 'better'. The affair is primarily about the character flaws & deficiencies of the WS.

These can include:
1) Insecurity & neediness
2) Poor self-esteem and boundaries
3) Lack of introspection & frequent blameshifting onto others
4) Prior unresolved emotional baggage
5) Dependency & co-dependency
6) Poor communication skills/expectation of clairvoyance from partners
7) Immature romanticization (confusing 'feelings' for love -- love is ACTION, not emotion)

Dr. Frank Pittman in Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy writes:

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate�someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own�is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born�any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

I feel that most WSs, especially those that "affair-way-down" with obvious losers/criminals/philanderers/users/sociopaths/etc., are such needy, insecure, and self-unaware people that they will latch onto and revel in attention/validation from any source, no matter how clearly innappropriate the source may be, when they are sufficiently vulnerable or "feeling lonely/down". All too often, the OP who cheat with them are frequently predatory/opportunistic types -- adept at recognizing mentally-susceptible individuals and skilled at "turning on the charm" to get what they want (usually sex, money, diversion, & conquest).

Sadly, the FOG can indeed last a long time. The "honeymoon phase" typically lasts 2-3 years and it can take quite a bit of time after that for 'rock bottom' to truly set in (this is if the affair-partners stay together--which they may if they "need" each other sufficiently). No question, the best chance to break an affair is early on (with exposure) before too much is emotionally & socially invested in it by the WS. No question, in general a WW-affair is MORE DIFFICULT to break that a WH-affair. I'm sorry, but if you are not prepared for possibly a long waiting game, you have every right to consider divorce to mentally and legally be freed from her. Most MB vets will advise you to be patient. The Harleys will advise you to "wait 2 years" in Plan B/NC. (I will tell you, from personal experience, if you have not done or had the opportunity to do, a solid Plan A beforehand, that Plan B is a very tough and less-effective proposition.)

It is a decision only you can make. Best wishes in whatever path you choose.

Bookmarked. This needs to be repeated for many of the newcomers arriving here wondering, "WTF...?"

SDCW man
What a powerful and insightful post. I am glad to see you have turned your pain and turmoil into a reflective and thoughtful post that will inevitably help those that venture here to read and learn.

Thanks

BCBoy

Bob,

True, we all have fallen short and none of us are without sin. One does not have to be intrinsically a "sleazeball" to do sleazy things (esp. when driven by powerfully addictive emotions). ALL WSs (and single OPs who knowingly affair with a married person) have behaved sleazily whether or not they are normally of higher moral fiber.

The only difference between someone who IS trashy and someone who merely BEHAVED trashily is how they react after the fact at some point. Do they recognize it and repent? Or do they continue, deny, and repeat indefinitely? Remember, after dismissing the hypocritical would-be executioners, Jesus walked up the terrifed adulteress and sternly warned her: "Now, go...and sin no more!"


I agree...of course it is a lie! You are either married or un-married. There is no in-between. Hypothetical here: If someone you might want to date tells you that "I am separated and just waiting for the paperwork", ask them to provide you with their stbx spouse's number so you can confirm that it is "ok" to date them. I'll bet that 95 times out of 100, you will find out the story is not what you were led to believe.

I've been wanting to read this thread from the start - only just had time to catch up.

So now I am thinking it through.... with the predator scenario are both spouses affairing down?

I guess that comes back to Bobs comments about sinners and some sins have much worse implications?

Maybe.... so although I affaired down - a lot lot less educated, uninterested in health, 17 years older, rubbish job, weeny house, interesting body odour (yuk),

He affaired down because I was emotionally loony, I didn't have the maturity of his wife, I wasn't earning as much (although had the capacity to earn an awful lot more), I had weaker boundaries than his W. My H says he certainly affaired way up.


Actually I like what ccbis said (I hope I got that right without referring back) - that affair partners are illogical - and not just because they are aari partners - my pairing up would certainly have been illogical if both of us had been single.

I'm quite happy with the biblical/ moral explanation of afaring down too.

Interesting thread BCboy - causing some introspection

I guess, everyone has an element of correctness in their thoughts - affairing up or down is just a matter of perspective and is best analysed by a WS to help them unravel where they went wrong and maybe to a BS to provide comfort.

This bears repeating. Excellent post, SDCW_man.


I think this is a good assessment for a majority of As/WSs. An A is NOT about the BS. I remember reading on several different occasions here where someone summed it up as: your WS was broken long before the A. They may have been tiny cracks at first, they may not. The point is, it's about the problems w/ the WS. It is rarely a reflection or value judgment of the BS.

I find this interesting. After reading this I am wondering what was the impetus for you to proceed? Was he pursuing you vigorously? With this description it surprises me an affair could be incubated.

Is it the forbidden fruit aspect that causes the excitement and apparent lack of judgment? Because what you describe seems to defy logic. There has to be something else that is very strong to overcome what is by your description as unappealing.

I find it interesting to find out what the tipping point is for someone to throw all caution to the wind and engage in an act that changes the course of a persons life.

Thnx for that post SDCW_man. So true, so many times, so often

This topic is a hard one for me.

The OW was a blonde, blue-eyed model for a local small agency.

That first week in recovery, I asked FWH what she did for a living. When he said she was a part-time model, I fell apart. I remember thinking, how in the *** can I ever compete with that. I consider myself attractive, but geez, no, not model material.

I spent a year searching online to find her pictures. I needed to know what she looked like in case she ever reared her nasty presence in my life unexpectedly.

One night I finally found her pictures online at the modeling agency site. What a gut-wrenching feeling to stare at her face and know that is what my husband stared at. Reaching a very low point and sobbing, I emailed my dear friend MelodyLane and sent her the link to OW's picture. My sweet friend emailed me back that FWH DID TO affair down because OW's heart was black and she could never compete with me. {{{{Mel}}}} That meant so much to me.

At that time, FWH's heart was black, too; and he'll tell you that himself. Whether OW's heart has always been black, I don't know. But she was wicked during the A and did very wicked things to steal my husband and my children's father.

I remember what it felt like pre-affair when H would tell me I was so beautiful to him. I really, really, really believed him. I miss that feeling; not sure if it will ever return.

For me, the OM was a MARRIED short, fat, balding middle aged Californian of "spanish" descent that was the XW's supervisor with two daughters and on top of it all serial cheater.

He seduced her with a shower of gifts, lunches and everything else n the company credit card, he had went so far as to buy her a multi-thousand dollar diamond ring (which I destroyed with a grindstone) before he got busted and fired. Not even that stopped him as he got another job and was doing the same thing D-Day.

He was just in it for the pursuit of snatch and to destroy families. As soon as I gave his wife the evidence, he dumped XW.

Destroyed with a grindstone? Yikes!

Pariah, you'd make a good assassin, with all this anger...

But the anger has to be tempered so that it can lie in wait until the perfect opportunity arises.

admiration, recreational companionship - lots of. I spent many more hours of time with him than H.

It started with him giving extra coaching to me on my trumpet - our one a week lesson (plus rehersal once a week) turned into a 3/4x week lesson, and built up to hours of phone conversations and iming.

My H and I had slipped deeply into an abusive language and he seemed jealous of our son - I just didn't like him. I was too frightened to talk to him about it.

I could get over the yuk most days because I was so sesperate for the admiration (and company and afection)


My H and I now know how to make the most of our time with each other and he has taken angerman. classes. We communicate again.

This topic comes up so often here and I find it sooo sad that us BS's spend any time comparing ourselves to nasty corrupt people.

Both partners involved in an A affair down. Each must be broken to engage in a behaviour that will cause their familes such devastation.

Some are temorarily broken.

Some are permanently broken.

I love my FWH, and I would say he is an attractive man but at the time of his A, he was the most unattractive person to be around. It wasn't just me that thought that either. His family and friends when they were told of the A all said that they had seen a negative change in him in the weeks leading up to D-Day, and that he had somehow changed from a lovely and likeable man to someone quite thoughtless and offhand.

The OW in our case had also been a model (albeit an unsuccessful one), maybe she just made it up. She would qualify as attractive. BUT she is the ugliest person I have ever had the misfortune to come across in my life. As SMB said, the OW in my sitch also had a heart as black as coal.

What she did to my family she has done to several other families before. It was all a game to her. People who know her have no doubt that she will do this again. She is a permanently broken person and my H affaired down when he had his dirty A with her.

My H was temporarily broken and she affaired down when she had her A with him.

Thank God, he is now back to being a man of integrity, and a man that I can call truly attractive again.

But folks in affairs do not use a fair yardstick when assessing their A partner. For example they all lie, and IME virtually everybody involved in A's know that their OP is lying but it is not held against them.

Interestingly in reading this thread I want OM dead for the first time in several years ! LOL !

I'll toss my hat in the ring to say that a lot of times when a woman "affairs down" with another man, that other man has something important going for him. It's "Alpha Male-ness".

A lot of betrayed spouses -- including me -- on here were horrible weenies prior to the affair. We wouldn't stick up for ourselves or our marriage, and I bet dimes to donuts that most of us exuded "Beta Male-ness".

Learning to stick up for yourself and others, lead and expect others to follow, display body language that says you are in control and unafraid... these are all desirable characteristics. And in the words of my former wayward wife, "I didn't think you would care or do anything. But then you fought for our marriage, and that helped me see who I needed to be with."

Yep. I fought like hell and showed I was more Alpha than the other man. He was overweight, unemployed, a chronic liar, and lived in a tiny shack in the mountains of California. Yet when he spoke, he was assertive, charismatic, and persuasive. Lucky for me the man had no clue about how to treat women well, control his anger, or be honest with anybody... it was his repeated lies and angry outbursts that were part of what got through to my wife that "hey! This is not a good man to be with!"

My two cents. Women often "affair down"... but that downward guy is often more assertive and manly than their husbands.

OW in my H's adultery was/is very pretty.
I can relate.



I assure you, that you will feel beautiful once more.
I am 60 years old.
I feel beautiful. Not all the time , but I can "see" when I look beautiful in H's eyes.
There is still a little self protection fence around your heart.
It's OK.
You're OK.
You will eventually recognize you are better off without that fence.

Ah yes, the fence.

I think I said this on another thread but, Looks are not everything...everyone is attracted to something different in a person.

I have known men and women who when I first met them I thought they were gorgeous, but then when I got to know their personality (stuck up, sooo into themselves, thought they were Gods gift to the Opposite sex, spent their day lookin at themselves in the mirror, put other people down...Etc.) It literally changed their looks to me and I just couldnt see past their attitude to see their beauty anymore...

And havent you met someone that you thought was okay lookin but once you got to know their personality (thoughtful, confident not stuck up, nice, friendly, funny, can see the good in everyone...Etc.) they got more attractive to you...I have known people like this....

Personality is a main factor in determining looks once you get to know a person on the inside...whats inside radiates ouside, truly....

Like everyone has said (I have a feeling my H OW is gorgeous, Havent had the pleasure of seeing her yet) the OP may look good in passing but ugliness on the inside radiates to the outside...I have witnessed it throughout my lifetime, so for me I know it is true....

So without even meeting you guys, Pep and SMB, I know you guys are beautiful...on the inside and the outside.

{{{{Stillhere}}}}}

There are a lot of beautiful people here on MB, inlcuding YOU!

Hey all: I didn't read all the previous posts, but the idea of affairing down...I don't know if my WH even thought of it one way or the other. OW is 24 years is Jr., I met her several times before EA ocurred, even had her and her husband in my home how's that for a kick in the teeth. I used to call her lovingly(yes, i said lovingly...i used to really like her) J-Loe. She is young, beautiful beyond belief. Tall (I'm short), she has a very athletic build (me-hour glass with a little to much glass), stong, intelligent working career woman well educated (me stay at home mom for 22 years, relatively smart never finished college, good head on my shoulders i get by)

there was nothing for me to compare to i am old enough to be her mother, how do you wrap your head around that? Looking in the mirror was and still is very hard, excrusiatingly painful at times. Like i said, a little too much in the middle, firming cream for my wrinkles is my best friend and yes, only my hairdresser knows what color (grey) my hair really is. what used to be my best assets, you know twin peak territory now lies safely in the valley of underwire!

So.....affair down?......affair up? Maybe it's not up to the perception of the WS, maybe it's our (BS) perception of ourselves. At least with me it is. After discussing this with my WS, one of the things that was so apparent was that she is so very different from me in every way.....maybe that was what he saw in her along with EN being met on every level. He says I was never a thought and he didn't set out to pick "her" it just happened to be her...

My luck huh?

See my sig line.

Not in our case, nor in many I recall to mind TBH.

I am not sure if it is more manly or if the WS affairs down with someone "different" than their spouse. I think of Mike C2 and if I recall his wife went for quite a wimpy fellow and very mild compared to Mike. Perhaps this is part of the attraction, "If I am not happy then what I need is different"?

Perhaps that difference adds to the excitement and the newness of the adultery.

Maybe it's just that the WS goes for "completely different than what I have now" and different means "non faithful, etc."

While I find this thread entertaining at times, I am also struck by the concept that "Why?" is a control word. In other words, asking why is a way to try to control the situation.

It gives me a little satisfaction to think that WW chose "down" because it helps keep my self-esteem in place. But when I do so I am being quite judgmental, and that's something that we are told we must avoid doing because DJs are LBs.

I can slice it a number of ways: OM is younger than WW (I am older). He is taller than me, has more hair, has more kids. Those are some of the "pluses" I could place. He also has less education, smokes, is a known ladies man (and a married philanderer), has recently had cancer surgery, and is a dishonest as the Icelandic night is long (at this time of year). Those are some negatives.

Who knows what WW sees in him? We seem to agree that pluses and minuses don't really play into it. OM meets EN that haven't been met at home. WW has not set sufficient precautions to prevent an A from occurring.

When all is said and done, unfortunately, to me the only truth is, "It is what it is."

I have a simpler hypothesis - instead of "affairing down", I think the OP is likely to be the polar opposite of the BS. Perhaps it's nature, our "gut instinct" at work, trying to ensure that the gene pool is properly mixed. Or maybe we just get tired of having our ENs met in one way, and are therefore enticed when someone else meets them differently.

I do know that in my case the OM is almost the exact opposite of me, in almost every way.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

I remember when my BIL a long time ago started goin with someone who I thought was drop dead gorgeous, I mean she was, Huge chest,long pretty hair,dark italian skin, etc. I said to my then H (now WH) OMG she is so gorgeous, I cant even stand next to her. And H said something like, "I dont think she is gorgeous at all, she smokes, shes loud, she acts like a B#tch and she really is just pretty with a big chest, maybe she is just not my type. If she didnt have boobs, I wouldnt even give her a second look."

Then I started askin around, because I thought H was just sayin it to make me feel better....everyone I asked men and women young and older all said she was just attractive but not gorgeous....So I guess my idea of a gorgeous woman that a man would love to be with is different than everyone elses.

Oh well now OW has long dark hair, dark italian skin(I have been told) she is constantly fighting with WH on the phone and when I talked to her she sounded like she has been smoking for years and talked like a truck driver (and not just because of the language either)....so maybe he was just lying. Or like everyone said she was the opposite of me.

Or it could be the fact that he worked next to her and he talked to her about our problems and she called me a ungrateful B#tch and slept with him....an easy coworker....the opportunity was there and he grabbed it.

((((SMB)))),

Oh honey.....I can SOOOOO relate...(I'm not the biggest fan of this topic either.... ).....

OW was/is beautiful. And to make matters worse, I got to come across scantily clad/sexy lingerie photo's she did for H. So now not only was she BEAUTIFUL...but dang if she didn't have a great body too...(a major self-esteem area for me....). AND....the woman is 9 years OLDER than me....Thank God you had Mel...I had Mimi for this....

It all comes back to what you wrote....and if there ever comes a day where H thinks he made a mistake or holds me in a lower-esteem than OW.....well, he knows where the door is....

She, nor he, no longer has that hold on me......

not2fun

OM in my case was almost a foot shorter than me, and 14 years older. Triple divorcee, and deliberately unemployed and living off his GFs earnings so as to avoid support payment for the various children he had abandoned around the country. Made and sold black market media to supplement his income tax free.

Never graduated high school.

Yet Squid still gave to him willingly what she promised only me. Go figure.

The bottom line is you can dress up a pig, but you still have a pig. **snort**

Yeah, ML, you said it....and I always try to remember that no matter who you are, pretty much, there is someone younger and better looking than you....and that esp goes for stupid OP.

I remember the first time I saw the FOW, my H was living with her at the time and I decided to stop by and say "hi" LOL,, anyway she really surprised me,, she was my polar opposite in every way.

Do I feel he affaired down? Yes, my hubby was the third married man she had been with,, who does that really??

Anyway I still wonder what he was thinking, but then I realise he wasn't. LOL