Hey everyone... first of all, let me just say I feel extremely blessed to have found this site. I've been reading nonstop. Thank you in advance for all the support.

Here's the quick version of the story and my dilemma. My wife began cheating early November, and told me at Thanksgiving. She immediately said she wanted a divorce and began the process...papers are already filed. It crushed me. Through much reading of this site, and what she's told me, I DO know why she cheated. We've always had a tough marriage, but got married young (she was 20, I was 23... we've been married 4 years now). I still love her to death, but I wasn't meeting her emotional needs. Anyway. After a week of acting like a crushed, self-pitying, weepy fool, I went into Plan A mode... I had already moved out of the house and in with a friend, though.

So I've been in Plan A for a few weeks now, and she HAS started coming back to me. We've been spending time together, and are even going to run off on an impromptu Christmas weekend vacation together, instead of trying to deal with our families alone. Of course, she says she still loves this other guy. But she's (mostly?) stopped seeing him, though he still texts and calls her incessantly. I don't fully know the amount of contact she still has with him, but he's definitely still "around" I guess.

So, she says she is confused. I believe her. But I know she still cares for me too, and there IS at least a small chance we reconcile and work things out. Here's my dilemma...

I love my wife dearly, and still want her back. That said, she hasn't shown much remorse yet, and if it DOES end up that she wants to reconcile completely, I'm afraid I'll have this gross feeling like "she won" rooted deeply in me. She got to go screw around, destroy my life, and then still gets to have me back with no consequences? This is paired with the struggle that, if I bring up any of these terrible emotions or we try to talk much about them...I'm removing points from the love bank, and I'll be driving her away!!

I have read "getting over the resentment" but part of me isn't sure I can live with her forever, feeling like I got USED so terribly without and recompense. Does that make sense? I would hope she would breakdown and be truly remorseful at some point, but I'm not sure she will. I still think she's a good person, and love her to death.

Does anyone have any input, or have you been in a similar situation? I don't want to feel like I got walked on, or used...any more than I do already. Part of me wants her to feel consequences for what she's done, even though I desperately want my wife back.

Any kids?

If not, then you don�t know how lucky you are. Count your blessings you�re not dealing with this stuff with little ones in the picture.

Kick her to the curb and be grateful you got a cheating woman out of your life before you did have kids with her and she cheated again.

Now, the advice you�re going to get to kill the affair will be like a broken record. Expose, expose, expose. If you�ve been reading, then you already know that exposure is the number one way to kill an affair.

Personally, I think you�re dead on on how you�ll feel if you take her back without condition.

You�re young. There�s tons of great women out there. There is nothing to save with this one. She�s a cheater, you have no kids.

Tons of us betrayed husbands would give anything to have discovered what we dealt with when there weren�t kids in the picture. We could have saved ourselves lots of pain.

I know a man who found out his wife cheated on him when there were no kids. He left immediately and never looked back. He�s a happy man and could care less about rebuilding something with someone who doesn�t deserve it.

He�s very happy now.

Too many good women out there to waste time on this one.

This isn�t what you want to hear, but it�s coming from a man who lived through the betrayal with kids in the picture. It sucks and she�ll likely cheat on you again if you take her back as you suggest.

Sorry that you're in this position. You are in the right place, and there are some wonderful experts that can help you far better than I can (ForeverHers, Pepperband, Mr. & Mrs. Wondering, MelodyLane, Helpthelostdads, just to name a few off the top of head).

I have been there myself and have come through whole (as a person) - as I read your post I wanted to communicate one thing to you above all.

As a BH (Betrayed Husband), you need to be truly and visibly ready to let go of EVERYTHING to have a chance at truly saving your marriage.

Your instincts are correct: you don't want to feel used or walked on any more, and you want her to feel consequences.

They are both somewhat within your control, but focusing on the first one - that is entirely up to you.

You have had a routine up to now of disengaging emotionally with her and/or appeasing her to avoid conflict. That needs to change 180 degrees, but you have deeply established habits set in place that prevent that, so it'll take some work. In addition to the "carrot" of Plan A, you need to have a "stick" as well. That means that you will not tolerate, stand for, or enable in any way her adulterous behavior. There are some excellent articles on this site on what that looks like specifically, so I won't try to rewrite it. MelodyLane seems especially adept at posting links; maybe she can help if she sees this.

Good luck; read, read, read, and listen, and THEN, try to do. Resist lecturing your wife at this point - think of her as an alien with cotton in her ears right now. She is shrouded in the addictive fog of an affair.

I'll put your thread on my watch list, and check in as often as I can.

Hang in there, the vets will be here soon!

Best Wishes,
Arpeggi

Hey I am not a vet but I exposed yesterday. It works - take the advice no kidding.

See my thread if you want proof the last three pages my life is moving fast right now.

There are no guaruntees save one. You will not get your wife back unless you are willing to fight. Decide to not live in fear.

Quoted for truth.

I am a man JUST like in his scenario. No kids, found out my wife was cheating on me - she was unrepentant and couldn't see through her fog....... so I divorced my WW at the advice of some wonderful people here (read my first two threads for the full story if you're so inclined) - at the time I thought I was done for emotionally.

2 1/2 years later, I'm dating the most wonderful woman in the world - my family LOVES her as much as I do, and that wreckage of a sad marriage is just a distant memory. My girlfriend now and I both went through a bad marriage and we have the added bonus of our experiences to help do things RIGHT this time. I can't believe how I almost would have settled for my WW if she had pretended to repent.

-----

EDIT: And what about my XWW? Well, she's saddled with an underwater mortgage, began sleeping with a deadbeat "artist" after I exposed her first affair in a nuclear fashion - and I'm talking literally 3 days after her first OM dropped her like a hot potato, before I had even moved out, she started up with this new guy (by the way, this is a "mature", "together", college-educated upper-middle class woman; throw EVERYTHING out the window when it comes to waywards. She now has a child with this man (who has two other young children from two different mothers), unmarried, his mother moved in the house straight from Mexico, and my XWW lost everything - her job, her friends, her family's support. And I had NOTHING to do with any of that - I went above and beyond to NOT bring the divorce or affair up with our mutual friends, never bad-mouthed her outside of a few private venting sessions with my parents and my subsequent counselor..... she did all this HERSELF. Believe me, I am a testifier to the "reap what you sow" aphorism now. So don't worry about HER. Keep your head up, walk strong with integrity, and karma will plow through her all on its own.

------


Best Wishes,
Arpeggi

Welcome to Marriage Builders, Stuck, sorry you have to find your way here.

Okay. Your WW, in the space of less than two months, has started an A and filed for D.

You have moved out of your house. Why?

Trust me. She is still seeing OM. You have made that quite convenient for her, by leaving the house.

I am concerned by your comment that you have always had a tough marriage. Can you tell us a little more about that? That is a comment that I would normally expect to hear from someone who has been married much longer than you.

Tell us what you have been doing as a part of your Plan A, and describe what you mean when you say she HAS started to come back to you.

Thanks everyone--I have indeed heard a lot of the "GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN" talk. This is nothing new to me...I'm aware that most people, upon hearing I'm only 27 with no kids, feel the best thing for me is to cut myself off and flee.

I do wish to hear all perspectives, including from those who absolutely think leaving should be my only option. That said, I don't want to be HAMMERED with posts telling me to leave. I fully understand that the best option in this case might be to divorce--it's sure the easiest option at this point. But I don't KNOW that it's the best option. And I didn't get married at 23 so I could get divorced 4 years later, kids or no kids... I haven't tried hard enough to save my marriage, to feel good about myself walking away. Yet.

So again, thanks in advance. I'm in a fairly clear-headed place today... I'm still on the rollercoaster of emotions, but at least today I'm thinking objectively.

That said, I still love my wife dearly and would LIKE to try and reconcile. I'm torn between depositing points in the love bank, and having difficult conversations (or doing things like cutting her off MORE financially than I already have) that withdraw them.

Marital--

When she filed for divorce, we agreed to separate. I didn't want to overhear her phone conversations with OM anyway. I moved out of the house mostly because it's large, empty, and reminds me of her. I could not afford it on my own, and would need to get roommates and etc. This way, she is responsible for the mortgage (I have thought through all the implications of this, don't worry), she is responsible for the roommates and upkeep and everything. Her family is furious at her, and she doesn't have many other places to go. I have supportive family and friends to move in with.

She's still talking to OM, and likely seeing him. Yup. It's not like I could STOP her seeing him by NOT moving out. I guarantee us staying in the same house, despite everything, would have made our relationship (and my emotional state) far worse.

Our marriage has been rocky, in that we had great difficulty communicating early on, and fought a lot. She dealt with some crazy anxiety and panic disorders for the first few years of our marriage that created some bad habits--me enabling her, mostly, and too little focus on taking care of myself. I'm trying to remedy that now. The last year or two have been much better (i.e. less fighting) than the first. But as I said, I know I was not meeting her emotional needs.

Ok, so as far as Plan A... I mostly ignored her at first, and started doing all kinds of things to take care of me. Rock Climbing, getting back in touch with family and some friends, hitting the gym a lot, being independent and not needy at all. What time we DID have to spend together (working out logistics and all) I'd be sweet, kind, and caring, but firm in saying I deserved someone who loved me completely and would find someone who did.

By "coming back to me" I mean she has been calling me more, asking me out for coffee and dinner, and then saying she told OM to leave her alone for a while. She now says she misses me. And she wants to leave for Christmas, just the 2 of us, rather than deal with our respective families alone. I'm not sure what's going through her head, but this is a stark change from the "I'm leaving you and want a divorce" talk of last month.

Forgot to mention MaritalBliss. She's AWESOME! Listen to her and other vets, answer their questions honestly, and you will be on the right track.

Message received about wanting to save your marriage. I won't add any more to the "divorce her" pile until you say so.

Remember, there are NO guarantees in this game. You can only do YOUR best to be a man of integrity, who can Plan A her while not enabling her adultery.

You're pretty far down the path of an enabler who's in Plan Doormat. That needs to (and CAN) change - but it's all in your hands now.

MaritalBliss asked you some EXCELLENT questions. Answer those and the vets will be able to help you a lot more effectively.

Best Wishes,
Arpeggi

Oh, that's just coz you think I'm a lady

Stuck, I would suggest you move back into your home. Of course you don't want to hear your WW talking to OM. But moving out has given her free reign to contact him whenever she wants! No, you can't stop her from seeing him. But you don't roll over for the affair! We call this doormat behavior. If you want to save your M, you need to create conflict in this affair, not enable it!

You say she is responsible for the mortgage. Is your name on it as well? Because if she decides to scrap the payments, your credit is in jeopardy. Also, what is the story with the roommates? She's already got roommates in there? Do you realize that you could be at a liability if one of those roommates were to be injured in your home? What, exactly, is the roommate agreement?

I suspect that the reason she's been coming back around is in order to get you to fulfill emotional needs that you fulfilled in the past. It sounds like she is cake-eating - having the best of both worlds.

Bottom line: move back into your house and stop making it so easy for your WW to conduct this swingin' single lifestyle. How can you accomplish this?

I think if I try to move back in to my home, she'll take it as a sign that I'm trying too hard to reconcile, and it will drive her away. She doesn't want to feel trapped in a marriage she hates, which I understand.

I guess my rationale is that I can't KEEP her anywhere. And the more trapped she feels, the more she'll chafe against it and want out... kind of concurrent with what plan A states. I don't know where to find the line between enabling and trapping her. I'd like to move back into my house, sure, but if she wants to go for this guy she will do so no matter what I do, or where I am. I'm not sure my being in the house accomplishes anything, aside from making her feel trapped again. One of the benefits, in fact, is that it's forced us to separate our money, and she has been slowly realizing the harsh reality of a world where she has to make it on her own, without me supporting her financially, domestically, etc. I know she appreciates me more already, now that she's been taking out the garbage, trying to budget, cleaning up cat puke, etc.

There are no roommates yet--she has to find some. Neither of us can afford the mortgage on our own. I fully understand the implications of the mortgage...and my credit is already bad. I haven't thought about the liability of renters yet, but I should do so.

StuckWaiting, since you've already made the biggest decision - trying to save your marriage - we'll focus on that. Understand, like Marital Bliss said, that you're still stuck with your house regardless if you live there or not. As far as your emotional state, has moving out helped it at all? I think not, right? I would stay out of the house only if your wife is violent and would be likely to hit you - don't need a DV arrest on your record. Otherwise, if there is no legal separation agreement giving her exclusive use of the house, I would move back in. Moving out just gave her the freedom to continue her affair unabated.

Secondly, you need to expose the affair, quickest way to kill it. Read the materials on this site, what you've been doing is not a Plan A, sounds like you jumped into Plan B almost immediately.


Can you explain this - sounds like important information and your explanation is somewhat vague, be specific please.

You need to get yourself back into that house. If she doesn't like it, SHE can move out. Why should YOU have to bear the burden of her selfish choices?

Get your things together, throw them in the car and GO HOME. Walk up to the door, throw it open and sing out "Honey! I'm home!"

I'll tell you what you'll get. An infuriated, adulterous wife whose party just got peed on. She's not going to like it one little bit. Because now she can't pretend she's single. Now she can't call or meet OM whenever the whim to do so strikes. Now she'll have to sneak calls to him and send furtive texts.

Let her be upset. You stay calm. Say "WW, this is my home. I apologize for leaving without giving thought to the fact that you and I need to work on our marriage together, not separately. What would you like for dinner tonight? I'm cooking!"

She'll throw the D in your face. She'll say "I was starting to think we could work on this, but now you've done it!" Stay calm. Tell her that you have no intention of divorcing her, that you love her and want to make your M a sizzling, fantastic one.

Has anyone mentioned exposure to you yet?

BTW, don't tell her about this site or that you're posting or reading anything here.

She doesn't like it? SHE leaves.

Ok. You wish to save things.

The first thing you need to do is to kill the affair. She hasn�t done that. She�s cake eating right now.

I say take the pride option. Let her know you won�t play second fiddle to anyone. She ends the affair and commits to the marriage.

If she wishes to come back, she has to agree to certain terms.

Otherwise, you know you can move on, find someone who will appreciate you, and who won�t cheat.

I would then expose the affair to her family, to OM�s family, and to your family.

That is your first step, regardless of what path you eventually choose to follow.

Then there�s always Plan FU, which I still recommend for you. The grass is mighty green with women who are in their late 20�s.

No matter what happens, learn from what went wrong. Strive to not repeat it. Seek women with certain qualities and don�t settle if they don�t have those qualities. Forget the physical ones. Those things are important, but they�re not.

Look for the non-physical attributes and make a few of them total deal breakers.

This includes your WW. Don�t settle for certain traits, such as poor boundaries with men and an insistence on �male friends�, and other such nonsense.

Hmm, seems like I need to clarify--I think you're right, I did not follow Plan A/Plan B exactly. What happened, I guess, was that I actually followed closer to the "Love Must Be Tough" approach by Dobson. Not intentionally. That is, in essence, jumping straight to Plan B.

Once in Plan B, I had to negotiate my way back to Plan A. So I guess I'm sort of in the middle of a hybrid Plan A/Plan B place right now.

Now--the affair IS exposed. Everyone knows. It made her VERY angry at me for a while, and she still hasn't forgiven me for telling her family, but I had to. Everyone knows, which is why she isn't 100% in the arms of her lover anymore. Her family adores me, and has been trying to talk sense into her (I agree with this as long as she makes her OWN decisions, and not because someone else feels she should). She's currently kind of depressed because our friends don't like her, and she didn't get any Christmas presents from my family...what did she expect??

Further, no texts/calls would be furtive. She instantly decided on divorce, and once that happened, all secrecy was out the window. Open calls, texts, etc, returning from nights out with no care of whether I knew or not. Furthermore, she stays at home most of the day, while I'm at work.

I've told her that I've no intention of divorcing her, and that I DO want to make our marriage a sizzling, fantastic one. She's finally starting to believe me, I think, but moving out DID help my emotional state. Yes, I don't like being separated, but the alternative was living in a house where she was unabashedly seeing him, and I was still doing all the things I normally do--which is MUCH more enabling than letting her fend for herself. In my opinion.

I AM debating returning to the house, though. There is something to be said for returning and being a sweet, loving husband who wants to work on our marriage. We had a night together earlier this weekend where we had a date, I cooked breakfast in the morning, and we had a nice night/morning together. I guess it still seems like she's having her cake and eating it too (I'm sure she's still communicating with the guy somewhat), but... I just don't know.

This is not Plan A. What you just described, we call Plan Doormat. MaritalBliss's reply to you above this sums up my feelings on what you need to do.

Stop thinking of your marriage in HER definitions. We both know her viewpoint is way skewed on what constitutes correct decision-making. So throw her viewpoint out the window for right now.

Read that again.

Got it? Now, replace it with the common sense and sanity that you will find here, and bounce it off other people you trust, if you like. THAT needs to be your worldview.

Step one? What MaritalBliss described. YOU move home. If she wants to "chafe", then SHE can leave. Why? Because SHE made the decision to break her vows and leave. But tell her she's still paying half the mortgage each month until you find renters.

She will go nuts on you. Remember, you're dealing with an alien now. Your wife is gone for the moment and will be for a while. Anything you do that interferes with her unfettered access to her addiction to her affair will result in every hurtful word in the book. And she knows ALLLLLLL the chinks in your armor.

IGNORE HER. IGNORE THE BABBLE.

She's angry and that's okay. She'll get over it. Your marriage WILL not survive you not returning to your marital home. That I can guarantee.

I anticipate you have excuses lined up on why you can't or shouldn't move back. None of them are important, and I don't say that because I'm a callous jerk. I say it because THE MOST IMPORTANT THING right now is for you to return home and stop enabling her affair. "But it'll be weird, we already talked about all the details and....." Doesn't matter. Tell her you've thought about it more, and weren't thinking clearly in your state of disbelief before. Tell her it is your marital home, and you aren't going anywhere. Tell her she's welcome to stay as long as she stops seeing the OM immediately and starts working on the marriage. If that's "too much" for her, if it makes her "chafe" (LOL!!!) then tell her she's free to go, but not to come back until she's ready to start behaving like an adult again and start working on your marriage. In short, BE A MAN.

This is your ONLY chance. She WILL NOT return to you if she doesn't respect you. And right now, she not only doesn't respect you, she has gotten you so twisted around that YOU'RE RESPECTING HER! You are - you respect her BS opinion that you shouldn't "pressure her" or she'll start "chafing" (Gosh, I can't even type that without shaking my head and laughing - it's such backwards thinking fog babble - you'll laugh too, looking back someday). That respect needs to end NOW, and you need to start showing her with your actions, not words, that she has a reason to have respect for you.

Also, I've been in your shoes with the joint house. Still am, post divorce! A mortgage, it turns out, is FAR MORE legally binding than a marriage..... Let me tell you, you think you know all the dynamics now.... trust me, you don't. Being a landlord is NOT FOR A WAYWARD. I went down that road. They're too selfish to manage renters correctly, and we had a few who trashed their rooms, broke my ex's furniture....... yada yada yada.

If you want to try and save this marriage, it will be the hardest thing you have to do, and it is not guaranteed to even work. Are you up for it?

If you are, then move home and we'll go to step 2.

If not, then you need to talk to a divorce lawyer to protect yourself as best you can.

Best Wishes,
Arpeggi

I would Plan A for a short period of time, but recommend you move to a Plan B soon. There is no chance you can save things unless there is no contact for life.

You will otherwise just allow her to continue cake eating.

I think she will respond rather quickly to a Plan B. If you step up, throw down the gauntlet that you aren�t going to be second fiddle and move to Plan B, then you can be in a position to think more clearly.

For total disclosure, put me in the 'divorce her now' column, but I won't beat the dead horse.


What about OM? Do you know who he is? Is he married? Does he have kids? Does he work with WW? You need to work this angle too. Exposure made it uncomfortable for WW - as it should - but OM is living a consequence free life right now.

Don't go on what WW tells you about him: he either lied to her to get in her pants, or she's lying to you to protect him. Maybe both. There are cheap ways to get intel on OM without going the PI route.

Turn up the heat on OM and he might go away.

You folks are all right, that I can't stay in this limbo for long. In a very short period of time, I WILL have to throw down the gauntlet. I know this. I also know, if I threw it down last week, she would've left...for good. At least, for a very long time (until her other life exploded and she came crawling back).

Now, I'm 50/50 on what would happen if I threw down. She might still leave. But I KNOW she's been talking to me much more than him, lately, so maybe a bit more time and my throwdown might be more effective. Or maybe not. Maybe I'm living a pipe dream.

Either way, this limbo won't last long.

I've strongly considered finding cheap ways to get intel on him. I know who he is. I've met him, know him, I've shaken the <EXPLETIVE>'s hand before he tried to get with my wife. I know what SHE has told me about him, which is that he has a 12 year old autistic son and a live-in girlfriend of 15 years, but they're *supposedly* estranged and he sleeps and works in the basement. I'm sure he's feeding her some lies, I just don't know how much is truth. Judging from what I DO know from seeing him personally, I wouldn't be surprised if him and the GF are really not "together."

Yes, he's an older guy, and yes, the situation sounds just ripe for a happy ending doesn't it? (Sarcasm). Since exposure 2 weeks ago, their situation has been crumbling.

I do know that Plan B is coming, but engaging it too soon is guaranteed to throw her more deeply into his arms for a long time.

Maybe.

2 years ago, what would you say your reaction to adultery would have been?

Exactly.

Don't let the fear of her walking turn you into this:



Focus on your goals, and move forward with those in mind.

Oh, my, my, my. Stuck, some BS's would give their dominant arm for the weapons you've got!

Look at this:
Your WW doesn't appear to have a job, or if she does it doesn't pay much. Is that correct? So..let her storm out! Let her leave!! Where is she going to go? To OM's and his girlfriend's place?? (and believe me, they aren't estranged and NO ONE is sleeping in the basement. That line has been around for as long as there have been waywards.)

And speaking of the girlfriend??! This guy has a live-in girlfriend??? Wahhoo - that's a prime exposure target!

Go to: www.intelius.com
This is a website where you put in the person's name, and it brings up their info if available. Even better, it will also bring up associated names. If he's been living with GF for that long, her name is going to come up.

Google them on FB and see if she has a FB page. You need to expose to this woman. This could be the single action that will put the fork in this A.

Yep, you go park your butt in your marital home. If she insists upon flaunting this by calling OM in front of you, disrupt her conversation. Follow her from room to room, repeating "You will not conduct this filty affair in your marital home. End the call or go outside and stand on the sidewalk!"

No, you're not nearly ready to go to Plan B yet. You've got plenty to work with, here.

Stuck,

Welcome to MB, sorry you find yourself here. Your situation and mine are similar in that we both still want to save our marriages, and our WS are both cake-eaters. The only difference is, my WS is now out of the house. I did the same thing you did early on, and left my home. I did it on condition that WS have NC with OM. In less that a week, I discovered that she had still been in contact, and I moved back home that day. After a trip to her sister's, during which WS was again promising NC, I found out again that NC had been breached, confronted WS and told her it was time to make a decision- OM or me and the kids. She requested that I setup a separate bedroom for her to come home to. I refused, told her she could come home with a commitment of NC. She moved out. I understand what you mean about WS becoming closer to you, but I caution you that as long as she is in contact with OM, she is likely to waffle back and forth between the two of you. This truly sucks (I know, because that is where I am now). My advice to you is: (1) Get back into your house ASAP, (2) Expose to as many people as possible, (3) Do the best Plan A that you can, remembering the carrot & the stick, (4) Get prepared for a Plan B in which you go completely dark on her. It sounds to me as if she still has strong feelings for her, and I feel that by doing a good Plan A, then a very dark Plan B, the contrast effect will be significant. That is what I am attempting to do now. Good luck.

That looks like such a useful website, but I'm not sure if he's on there or not. I know his name, I know his age, but there are only 2 on there that are close... I need to find just a LITTLE more information before I can find this girlfriend. I'd really like to though. I feel like she HAS to know (since her man has been out of the house so much, sometimes overnight, and at weird hours...how could she not?) and I hear my WW has been over to his house at least once. Ooooh how I wish I had just that little bit of extra info so I could talk to the girlfriend.

But again, maybe she knows, and doesn't care.

And yes, she has a job (she's a musician) that pays decently but sporadically. Part of what wooed her so much is that this guy, the OM, is a relatively successful local musician that dazzled her with his success and talent and...barf. Just reading so much about him on the internet is giving me an inferiority complex. I just wanna find his GF, not read about his musical exploits, thanks Web.

So yes, she'd have trouble surviving on her own. But she could do it. In hindsight I should've been much more firm in that first week, but I didn't know any better. The situation would've been better now. But, I guess none of us are prepared for this kind of bomb, so we usually don't handle it as responsibly as we'd like...

Check his facebook. Get your WW's passwords (keylogger or guess) and then look at his page. Odds are his GF is there. Expose to her then.

Unfortunately, it's not that easy. He's a musician who is (sort of) in the public eye, and as such, most of his personal information is locked down tight. I'm not going to give up this easily, but it's not been as easy as I hoped thus far.

I do get the feeling that his girlfriend HAS to know, and HAS to not really care. How could this have gone on so long without her noticing? I know he's been out overnight at LEAST a few times. If they really are not intimate, and if he's really living in the basement, then maybe she won't care at all what's going on.

Well. Today is an angry day. While I still don't know what I'm going to do, specifically, today I've overwhelmed by the logistics of separating our finances and lives, dealing with Christmas...and a boiling vat of anger that started to bubble over this morning, because of her betrayal. Sigh. I'm off to try and breathe and work through the anger productively. Somehow.

Don't make the mistake of 'getting feelings' like this and choosing inaction because of them. You can have all the 'feelings' you like. Expose to her and you will KNOW.

So his gig schedule should be available on the internet, yes? Pick a night when he's performing, drop by his apartment, and talk to his GF. Take proof with you.

That sounds easy, but I don't know where he lives. That information is not available.

I really want to contact her. But I need to find out how. I have to do some more digging. I don't know if it's even possible.

I believe she has only been to his place once, and he was very reluctant to let her do so... so I doubt that information is in her e-mail or anything.

Furthermore, the act of looking up so much information on him is painful for me, in itself. I got pretty emotional yesterday after I spent about half an hour looking. This makes it tougher. Every time I see his name it's a reminder, I slap in the face.

Small update--my WW's mother (who adores me, thankfully) has said she will try to do some research on OM for me. She says she's pretty good at digging up info.

If she can find out where he lives, or the name of the OM or his girlfriend, or his live-in mother (sounds like a piece of work, huh?) she'll let me know. And either her, or me, will tell OM's family what is going on.

That's a bit of good news for now.

Ok, now I could use a little bit of grounding, folks.

Through a handy website titled www.pipl.com and using some thorough sleuthing skills, I found add'l information on the OM...including his full name and address. No word on the name of his girlfriend. But, since the address is there, it's theoretically possible for me or someone else to show up there when his car is gone, with proof, and inform the girlfriend and/or mom of this affair. If they don't know already. And hope they care.

I feel like I'm intruding somehow. Is this going too far? I guess the info is all public record...

I'm not going to say anything just yet--and in fact, my mother-in-law might be the one to expose it to the family. I guess I could use a little reassurance that I'm not being a crazy stalker, this feels....weird to me.

Oh Stuck.
I know you are afraid, but tell me, how is that attractive?
If I told you that in 8 years, you would have days where you still feel like you do today, how does that make it sound for you down the road?

I'm sure it DOES feel weird. It goes against everything you ever learned about privacy and personal actions. So - throw all those old notions away, Stuck. They no longer serve you. This is a new time, a new situation. And it requires new thought on your part. You are no longer the Keeper of your WW's personal secrets. Those secrets are harming everyone around her - especially you and your marriage. Time to throw open the doors and SHINE THE LIGHT ON THIS AFFAIR.

I'll tell you what really pisses me off to this day: the OWH in my sitch could have talked to me almost FOUR months before I found out. I am not impressed that he chose to 'not be a stalker' and was an enabler in the destruction of my marriage by his waffling. Do OM's GF a favor and don't tell her how long you sat on your hands before you decided it was time to be a standup guy. It won't upset her to hear it - it WILL upset her to hear that you knew this terrible info about her life and decided you didn't feel like telling her.

And I wouldn't let your MIL do the work, either. You've got the club, friend. Swing it.

Thanks for the tips, guys. For the first time in weeks, I actually feel pretty empowered.

I will be swinging this club. And it will be good. Not sure when I'm going to do it, but it will be SOON, very soon.

I will keep everyone updated.

If I had a nickel for everytime a BH said this..... most don't follow through. Your actions will speak for themselves, so this is my challenge: make us believe you.

And don't delude yourself that his GF knows and "doesn't care". Do you think that fits with OM being "reluctant" to let your WW over to his apt.?

We've seen this script a thousand times. Trust us. Expose to the GF, and watch that OM weasel scurry home with his tail between his legs and throw your WW under the bus.

Have you moved back home yet?

If I hadn't exposed when I did, my WW and the OM would have still been in the fog of their fantasy, and they both would have filed for divorce and went forward with their grand plan.

Thank God I confronted both before it was too late, and now my wife and I are on our road to recovery, three months after no contact with the OM. The OM is in a nasty divorce right now.

Believe me, it pays to screw up their "dirty little secret" as quickly as possible. If you wait, your chances for saving your marriage get slimmer by the day.

Did you read Reynolds forum? After he exposed to OM GF, OM wanted nothing to do with WW.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2443936#Post2443936

Gg

Hey Stuck, what is the latest?

I just read Reynold's forum--that's very encouraging. Here's the status, as of today.

Last night, I had a good "date night" with WS. This had been planned for several days, as she's been initiating contact with me more and more lately. We took a dance lesson with a couple friend of ours, then went to a happy hour (the couple we went with knows our story, so it felt strange but wasn't awkward at all). We had a talk at the end of the night, not too heavy but she indicated that she was figuring out "she just wanted to be loved" and also "that nobody else loves her like I do." I count the night as a success for me. No SF or anything, but a goodnight kiss was a good sign.

Apparently she's leaning towards reconciling, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

OM is still texting her and trying to call, but she told him she wants space. I don't know how much he's pestering her, or if she's given in and seen him. I haven't put my foot down for NC yet because I think she's stuck in the middle, and it would be an ultimatum that would drive her towards him.......as of now. I plan to expose the A to OM's family tonight or tomorrow night. The A has been exposed to the entire world, EXCEPT OM's family, which is the reason the A has been squelched as much as it has been. WW is apparently getting irritated that OM is ignoring her wishes for distance from him, and if this is the case, maybe this final exposure is all it will take to kill the A for good.

She's still not showing remorse yet. I think in her mind, everything was justified because "she was planning on initiating the divorce anyway" and everything that happened when we were "separated" against my will wasn't cheating. Some kind of remorse is necessary before I can fully reconcile. But, she's not sure she will be able to give 100% to repairing our marriage yet.

I'm not back in the house yet. I really do feel that moving back in, even into the spare bedroom, will be seen as coming on too strong and will smother her. She is nothing if not independent, and has been our whole marriage. I can't make her feel trapped or it will undo what has been done thus far.

Update con't--other important information...

She has a New Year's Eve show in our hometown. Her bandmates (who have much more sway than her, since she's the newest member) haven't decided if OM will be performing with them or not (he was originally supposed to, and when A was exposed they balked).

She said yesterday she didn't know if I should come to the NYE show or not--she implied she wanted me to, but wouldn't want to make me see OM because she knows I'd want to break his kneecaps. I've never missed a local show of hers before.

Re: the future, the band likes me enough it's possible they'd cut off performing with OM for the sake of our marriage (she is invaluable, and they like me a lot, while OM is nothing more than a throw-in). If that doesn't happen, NC will be very hard to accomplish, though he will never travel with them and only be at local shows where I could attend also.

It still complicates the situation, and I'm very aware of the challenges posed by the professional relationship.

No, she would never give up her career, not for her M, the OM, or anyone.

I don't like this one bit, Stuck. Not one bit.

WW is performing with OM and doesn't want you there? WW shouldn't be performing with him at all.

hey I know you have read my thread and I am sorry I wasn't here faster to encourage you.

Get that exposure done on OM, right now! I wish to GOD I had these tools in Sept when I discovered the affair, or better yet June when it was only an EA.

Good Luck, get it done, listen to the vets! Trust me on this, my WW still thinks I am completely nuts and I don't care!

Swing that club hard man and don't let up until you are exhausted.

If that is truly her view, then her career is more important than your marriage.

And if you accept that, then you are a Doormat with a capital D.

Seriously, man, she THINKS THAT? And then proves to you that not only is her CAREER more important than her marriage, but also proves that LUST is more important than her marriage by F'ing another man? And then hammers home the fact that she has no respect for you by openly "struggling" between the POS OM and YOU? And then you LET HER DO THIS, without saying "it's me or him, so hit the bricks"????

This is a sickening situation, and you are a world-class enabler. Sorry for the harsh words, but they're true. You report all these facts about your life as if you're just a reporter instead of a MAN who can STEP IN AND CHANGE THINGS. This is your life, MAN! Are you going to SLEEPWALK through it, feeling like crap while everyone walks all over you? WAKE UP. SLAP YOURSELF AWAKE and START LIVING. Right now your soul is slowly dying.

EDIT: What happened to all your tough talk about stepping up? I had HOPED your next reply would be you telling us how you actually FOLLOWED THROUGH with action. Instead, it's this simpering tripe.

All you've done is proven us right, that you're all talk and no action. My words right now SHOULD make you angry - I'm insulting your ability to do what you say you're going to do.

Don't take this from me! Go out there, prove me wrong, and then come back here and tell me to SHUT UP, BECAUSE YOU ARE A MAN OF YOUR WORD AND YOU PROVED IT. Do it.

A few more things, but listen to the vets before me.

OM is calling because he has no respect for you or consequences. Show him different. He comes in your yard and you hit him hard with exposure.

She has no remorse, but don't expect any. My WW still does not blame OM at all. Thats OK, baby steps.

Get your butt back in that house. Make it clear you are back because its your house, and you are not smothering, kissing her butt or anything else. Its your house, you are the owner. Period.

My WW is independent too. She will stand up to you when you move back, but don't blink. Don't do anything outside Plan A, but don't blink either.

The show is a tough call, listen to the vets as to whether you go.

Good luck.

Thats harsh, but I know because I was this guy three months ago.

Wake up and fight is exactly right.

I just woke up this week so I am not perfect either.

Stuck, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO EXPOSE THIS AFFAIR TO OM'S GF?

I understand that sounds bad. However, this show is not an option. It's her job, her career. It'd be like me randomly quitting my job with no backup plan, without even knowing if I'm still trying to recover my marriage or not.

Harsh words indeed. I knew I'd get that for not exposing the affair sooner. My EXCUSE is that I'm a busy guy--spending the date night with my WW was more important to me than exposure. I absolutely know I need to make him uncomfortable, and WANT to get him back for stepping into my yard. I also have plans with my family tonight, and I've blown them off a lot lately...which is why I don't know if I'll get this done tonight or tomorrow. I don't want to confront him, I want to confront his family--he works from home, and I'm not sure when I'll be able to find him away from his family... it complicates things. Am I just making excuses?
It's true, word are easy and actions are hard.


I'll admit I'm not sure what to say to this. This has been her lifelong dream. Her livelihood is music, and abandoning her job right now is abandoning her career, and there is little chance she could ever return to the level of success she has now if she stops.

I understand that position, and always have. I have dreams also, and would never want to be forced to choose between them and my marriage.
I disagree that my position means I'm a doormat--in THAT regard. Maybe I'm a doormat in other ways, but demanding she quit her job as a musician would be a lesson in futility.

Does that mean I should leave her and move on? Maybe. Originally, I did say "Him or me" and she chose him. That's when I moved out. Then I changed from weepy, needy Stuck.... to charming, strong Stuck. That's why she's waffling now and (halfway) wants me back. I know I'm still enabling in a lot of ways, just----I can't QUITE figure out how to quit it.

As I said, I still firmly believe moving back in the house would drive her away. Exposing him to his family seems like the only weapon I have.

Don't wait to do exposure until a time when it's convenient for you. NOW is the time. Everything else you're doing is tying up your time to save your M.

You don't know this, now, do you? She could go screaming to new heights of success just as quickly, right?

To the former, you're absolutely right.

To the latter, I'm quite sure. She was ushered into a successful band, and has been there a year... there is a 100% chance of her being broke and jobless near-term if she quits, and it's HIGHLY likely it would take a her a long time, if ever, to reach her previous status on her own, even with the fan base she has now.

The band she's in has been working at this for 20 years, and 2 of them just quit their day jobs. She couldn't hack it on her own yet, and we both know it.

Again, YOU DON'T KNOW THIS. I have extremely close relatives in the music industry. Not the weekend hacks - these are bigger hitters in the music industry. Musicians migrate. Always. It is typical. Ending her affair will by NO MEANS be the death-knell of her career.

Sorry I am too much of a dummy to learn the whole quote thing yet.

You are too much of a busy guy to do this?

Are you kidding?

Let me ask you this. If this was before the affair, before the lies etc. If you were walking down the street with her and some guy punched her in the face what would you do? Same as any of us right? You would knock him out wouldn't you? Tell me I am wrong.

Get in the fight man. Move back in and nuclear expose the creep. Get your wife before its too late!

Do it now! I know its hard to buy into but this stuff works!

OK so I am going to be a [censored] because I recently moved out of my proverbial glass house and that qualifies me to tell you how to run your life.

You need to get that exposure done pronto busy guy if you have time to comment on other threads:)

Seriously its like an hour homework tops to get what you need, and for me it was a labour of love gathering an arsonal to throw at them. First non defensive move I made in months, felt GREAT

Stuck,

This is your future: divorce.

Why? Not because it's the best thing for you (because it is).

Not because she will come back to you (won't happen with what you're doing now).

It's going to happen because you're a doormat with no balls.

Reynolds is testimony as to the success of exposure. He just did it.

Man up. If you want to save your marriage, man up.

Stuck, do not initiate any contact with your wife. She needs to do the pursuing (this would show that you have self respect). The whole reason she did this is because she lost respect for you. She says its because she just wanted to be loved. She is a booty call to this other guy. That is why she pulling away from him somewhat. I personally think she regrets doing it, and that this complicated her life more then she wanted. She is not showing remorse because of her ego and selfishness. I concur that you should not move back in right now. Since you are already out. I hope you did get tested for STDs. Do not have sex with her while she is doing this other guy. I think you have a lot on the ball and would suggest that you divorce her also. Why? Because she is a musician and they tend to be narcissistic. Her love is conditional, but I think you know that. If you do take her back, I think the chances are pretty good that she will cheat again. All it would take is the right guy paying her a few compliments and being available. We just had a up and comer on another site **edited**. She was a singer who got involved with (fell in love) a band mate. It really does happen all the time. If she would sacrifice her marriage (which she obviously has) for her "music" (BS), she isn't worth the pain. I mean what would happen if you guys had kids? Divorce her and find someone worthy of your love. JMHO

You're avoiding her point. She shouldn't be performing WITH OM. You side-stepped her point.


That's because your priorities are completely backwards. Far easier for you to pretend everything's okay and take the easy road of going on a "date night" with your WW than it is to DO WHAT YOU KNOW YOU NEED TO DO.
Guess what? Things are pretty far from "all right".

SW, I've got a question for you. Is saving your marriage important to you? Your actions, so far, have said "No. It's not important to me at all." Your words mean nothing. Your actions speak for you. So, either be honest and admit to us and yourself that your marriage is less important to you than taking the easy road every time and avoiding confrontation, or decide to change and MAKE your marriage important to you by taking ACTION to eliminate the threat. Does that make sense?

EXCUSE. However, if it's between tonight or tomorrow, I'm fine with that at this point. You just committed to doing it tomorrow. I don't believe you. PROVE ME WRONG AND FOLLOW THROUGH - DO WHAT YOU SAY. (By the way, this is how you get respect in life, simply by doing what you say you're going to do).

Tomorrow it is, then. Show us you're a man......


Yes. You already know that. You don't NEED to confront him. HE knows he is having an affair. The goal of exposure is to tell everyone AROUND the affairees - to shine light on their tawdry little affair. Like lights on cockroaches, the affair can not and will not survive after exposure. When you do it, you will A) feel like a real man, and B) kick yourself for not doing it sooner.


This is not StuckWaiting talking. This is your WW talking through you. Her priorities are clear. Her career is more important than you. That's where you come in. If your wife says that to you (my career is more important than our marriage), through their words or actions, you have two options. Lay down the law and insist that she honor her vows, and then be ready to divorce her if needed (because she's not honoring her vows to put you first), or accept that you're not worth being put first, let her walk all over you, and resign yourself to an existence of misery.

One option leads to you feeling empowered because you have taken action and stood up to her, and may even lead to her respecting you and getting a reality check. The other option makes her hate you more for not standing up for yourself, and shackles you to a life of sadness and regret until she leaves you (which she will on this path), a cuckold with no self-respect.

The good news? No one gets to make this choice except YOU. You are in complete control of how you respond to this situation.


That's why you honor your vows, which shows that your marriage is being put first. She did not do that, so she has to lose her privilege (because she is not mature enough to behave like an adult who can keep her word).


You're wrong. It DOES make you a doormat. Let me try and help you:
Imagine that you are a movie star. Your wife, the day after your wedding, finds out that you're on the set of a movie with an actress, and that you are having an affair with her. Your wife would pull you off that movie so fast it would make your head spin, or she would divorce you. If she didn't do either, it would teach you that you could get away with whatever you wanted, and you would lose all respect for your wife.

Does that help?

Again, that's your WW talking through you. THINK FOR YOURSELF. Moving in what make things uncomfortable for her adultery. Think of her as an addict right now, seriously. Would a crack addict want you interfering with their supply? Hell no! They would do what your WW is doing - cake-eat, get what they want from you on their terms. And it would be YOUR duty, as it is here, to save your WW from herself. That's tough love. Come between her and her addiction in any way you can. Move back in. NOW. Exposing him to his family, and exposing your WW to her family and his family and YOUR family is NOT the only weapon you have. It is a big weapon. Moving back in is another step towards reclaiming your manhood.

Even if you DO end up divorced, doing what I've recommended will allow you to hold your head up high, knowing you are a MAN and did what you could do.

See you tomorrow, after you've done what you've committed to us that you're going to do.

Arpeggi

I don't think anyone is telling you to demand she leave her career field.

She should NOT be around OM. That's what we're telling you.

Wow, you're a busy guy so that's why you can't be inconvenienced by taking measures to save your marriage?!

Exposure is not done as revenge against a WS and her AP, exposure is done to draw everyone's attention to the affair to end it. It's like exposing a vampire to sunlight. Now if the scumbag boyfriend were to suffer financial, social or emotional distress as a result of exposure, I'm sure none of us would start crying or wringing our hands about it. Would you?

This is all about YOU now, stuckinwaiting, about what YOU are going to do. It is not about waiting for your WW to decide YOUR fate while she vacillates between OP and you, it is about YOU seizing the reins and steering the runaway horses back onto the path that YOU want to go.

Some of the other posters put things in some pretty uncompromising terms, and have even questioned your manhood, that would make me pretty upset, especially if I realized it was even partially true. But I don't see that fire in you, I see paralyzing fear, which has made you one very accommodating BS.

Stuck, it appears that she has you in a fog as well. The bottom line is that you must DEMAND respect. It is a very endearing quality, rather than being a pushover. One of the unfortunate consequences of an affair is that you are being compared and contrasted in every way with the OM. Right now you are losing that battle of which guy is more attractive.

You lessen the odds to save your marriage if you don't behave like a confident, strong, kind man who DEMANDS respect. Listen to everyone here. All of us have stories that come from the same script. Be kind. DEMAND respect.

Pretty upsetting.

I guess I got some things to take care of. And some serious soul searching to do. I'll report back soon.

So how do I demand respect without being a jerk? By...exposing OM to his family, and maybe moving back in?

I do totally understand why she's lost my respect for me. And I've lost respect for myself, too.

Demanding respect is not something I've ever been good at, unfortunately...

You and I are not that different.

I know you took a heck of a hit. Its tough to get back on your feet.

Fake it at first if you have to. Expose to OM family, email if that is all you can do.

Move back in. Don't even talk about it with her. Just show up.

One step in front of the other it gets easier. Do one thing and realize you took action.

Do nothing and you lose everything.

I have always been the nice guy too Stuck, never challenging people either. I am 3 months past the NC moment between my wife and the OM.

My resentment is becoming manageable once I spoke to the OM on the phone and stood up for myself and my marriage. I also called the OM's wife. We talked for almost 2 hours. The affair was sunk the moment I exposed it to the OM's wife. She exposed it to their kids. It was like a domino effect. Once my wife saw the light of day, she felt compelled to call the OM's wife and apologize. At that point, the OM was the odd man out. He was taking nukes from every angle.

I began giving my wife the emotional needs I had never given her, and I held firm that they could never contact each other again. My resentment is subsiding, and I am proud of myself for standing up for ME! And I know my wife is proud to be with a man who fought for her, me, and our marriage.

It doesn't feel comfortable making tidal waves, but trust me, you will feel very good about yourself regardless of how everything turns out in the end. She has risked everything with you, and although you want to save what you have, you must be willing to risk everything too. If exposure causes the end of your relationship, then you have to realize you merely accelerated what was going to happen anyway.

Expose, then man up for the battle that awaits you. I did it. You can too. It is never wrong to fight for someone you love.

This is awesome advice. I have worked to be less passive, and more of a fighter for my marriage... and I have a long ways to go. A LONG ways go go. I was never sure how to fight for my marriage, never sure how to stand up for it. I was always the passive one in this relationship, and that's a problem.

I have to prove to you guys that I CAN be that fighter. More so, I need to prove it to myself. Time to man up.

Words are not enough...

At some point you have to do what is best for yourself. You can�t make her stop by being sweet and nice. Some of us have been down that road.
You need to take a stand for YOURSELF!! Believe me you will regret it if you don�t. You�re going to look back on this in a few years and want to kick yourself for not standing up and making yourself heard. You don�t realize it now but trust me.
I�m not trying to throw salt on your wounds, I�m just telling you out my own experience. If you take a stand, even if your marriage fails, in the end you will respect yourself a lot more. Good luck.

Don't ask redundant questions to buy time, just to stave off doing what you know needs to be done.

You have ALL the information and answers you need in earlier posts. Don't ask us to repeat ourselves.

Go be a man.

You can't ease your way into taking a stand. You have the weapons. We told you how to use them. Give yourself the gift of self-respect for Christmas.

Now get in the fight!

MOVE BACK IN
EXPOSE

@Stuck - Those are the priorities. Get those done NOW!

All this other crap about respect. Who cares right now. Show your wife that you are willing to FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE. That will get respect.

@StuckWaiting -

Are you waiting for divorce? Expose and move back in. You won't be stuck anymore.

Get UN-STUCK!

Man up and do something!

You can do it! What's worse - standing around and not do anything and let this crumble or knowing that YOU did all you could to save it?

Do it!

Stuck,

I am going to repeat what I believe I told you before by quoting once again my college football coach.
Your lack of action is killing this and you. Taking action does not have to be text book, but it needs to take place. You have the info, use it. Even if you make a mistake or two you will be doing better than before. Much better to seek forgiveness than permission son, do it.

I just went to see True Grit. Was reluctant as I am a diehard John Wayne fan. Nobody is better than "the Duke". Anyway there is a line in this movie that reminded me of a line is The Duke's move called the Shootest. Ron Howard is asking the old Gunfighter, Wayne, how he was so successful and better than many others. He responded, "I was willing, many were not."

Stuck, you will prevail if you are "willing" to take whatever comes to fight for your marriage.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Grab that WishBone - give it a yank - then put the BackBone in it's place!

Have courage that no matter what - things will be ok!

Hey everyone... thought it was time for an update, for all of you who were so helpful before the holidays. It was an interesting, and difficult, couple of weeks. A lot happened so I'll try to keep it short as possible.

My WW and I took an impromptu vacation over Christmas, for 2 days, just to see if there was any spark left. There was. We had fun, and I intentionally tried to compartmentalize all my feelings so I could have a good trip and remind her that our relationship DID have good times.

Several days after the trip, knowing she was still in contact with the OM, I went NC. I told her it was too painful to be in this limbo, and I needed to cut myself off from her to heal. She understood, but within hours was sending me teary text messages. I stood my ground as best I could and didn't talk to her for a few days... and minimally over the next few weeks, despite a few messages and e-mails saying she couldn't imagine life without me. This was incredibly strengthening for me... and I found myself in kind of a "zen" state where I was doing what was best for me, and it felt good.

The majority of my contact with her for those few weeks was only to tell her that R was possible if and only if she went NC with OM. It wasn't easy, because I DID miss her.

And then things changed when her cousin died in a car accident last week. It shook her. She broke down and everything came out. She did a complete 180, I got every nitty-gritty detail... told me she was a horrible person and couldn't imagine a future without me and couldn't believe she was capable of doing what she had done. She said she would go NC with the OM and cut him out completely, and tell me if he ever tried to contact her again (which he had been doing regularly despite her prior efforts at cutting him off). She's been exceedingly sweet and remorseful. I've even gone off at her (not excessively, but brutal honesty) and she hasn't been defensive at all.

I'm in the process of moving back into the house. She knows if anything else happens, SHE is the one who is leaving the house, because I've made it clear if anybody should be living in a dingy room at a friend's house, it sure ain't me. OM sent her a text message yesterday afternoon, which she offered up to me willingly.

She also knows I'm not fully on board with R yet, just that I need to move back in as a first step, and we'll go from there. I've made it very clear the burden is on HER if she wants to stay in the house and repair the damage she has done. I'm dealing with the anger and hurt of knowing all the details now, but I know that was a first step towards healing.

Maybe I didn't do things perfectly. Maybe I screwed things up. But I feel ok today, because I'm going to have my house back, with my W in it for the time being, and there is hope... and if she makes clear that she can't handle the burden of repairing our marriage, I'll have my house and a shred of dignity.

Time to change HER phone numbers and email addresses!

Give her a little help in keeping slimy OM from even making an attempt at contacting her.

Has she written an NC letter for you to mail yet?

Well done btw!!!

Keep it up and keep holding to the MB principles.

Thanks for the encouragement! She hasn't written a finalized NC letter yet--I will bring that up tonight.

It's a little problematic that, because of her profession, she's easily accessible... changing her phone number is a possibility, and she'll have to block him on Facebook, but she's easy to get ahold of if anyone REALLY wants to try. This will be an obstacle for us. But anything I can do to keep persistent slimeball (my nickname for him is GDMFAHDBAG, 10 points if anyone can guess the acronym...) from getting up in WS's business.

I gotta keep being strong and not putting up with any BS.

You should also be able to block his known numbers and if he gets through that then start logging each attempt and get a Restraining Order placed against him or something like harassment or stalking charges levied against him.

Have you had your own discussion with GDMFAHDBAG?? (BTW I guessed the first half and yes it's funny but sad that this slime is like this)

Other than this - Have you given much thought ot what your next steps are? You've made a huge step by moving back in, but then what?

Odds are she is going to have some triggers that will come up from time to time. Be thinking about EP (Extraordinary Precautions) that she needs to put in place to alert you so you can help her through them.

Good LUCK!

I do plan to block his number soon--I hope it doesn't come to a restraining order, but I'm definitely prepared to go that route. He was so persistent I wouldn't be surprised if we have to.

As far as next steps go... we have plans to go to counseling. We had a MC we went to several years ago to work on some basic things, but might find a new one who can be a little more "harsh" with us. We are trying to date a little bit--get back to the roots of the relationship and remember why we originally had so much fun and wanted to get married.

I absolutely believe there will be triggers for her... I will need to consider what kind of EP she'll need. In fact, getting the text message from him several days ago was a trigger that she struggled with. I think we're going to be making some lists--lists of our needs, lists of our triggers, lists of boundaries.

I know this will be a long road, and I'm trying not to be too optimistic. Despite my eagerness to make it work, I know that I do have a lot of resentment built up over this that I need to overcome in order to be a qualified husband.

Still, this is very good news, but I'm a little concerned that you are setting the bar so low that you will soon be dealing with a false recovery. Your WW is at a low point right now, where it may be easy to make bright promises. You've got to really help her solidify this new resolve of hers. She's going to need your help to do this. Don't fail her.

Not good enough by half. Do it NOW. Change your numbers if blocking doesn't work.

Get rid of FB. She made it just fine without it, didn't she?

There are a lot of famous and well-known people out there in the teaching world, Stuck. They are able to keep the general public away. She may need to alter her job to eliminate the possibility of contact with OM.

Can you get an appointment with the Harleys? Obviously your previous MC was of little value.

I'm sorry, Stuck, but what does this mean? I thought you were moving back into the house? What do you mean, you're 'trying' to date 'a little bit'??

Stuck, I'm sensing no real plan, here. What is your plan to rebuild this marriage?

Well. MB, let me answer your questions... and say that perhaps you're right, as I'm having a lot of doubts this morning. I may be setting the bar too low in my eagerness to make our M work.

My comment on "trying to date a little bit" just meant we were going to go on date nights, have fun together, spend more time doing things we enjoy with each other instead of perpetually slogging through the swamp of this disaster. Depositing points into the love bank, instead of constantly removing them via difficult conversations. I'm moved back into the house, though I've still spent a handful of nights at a friend's house when things get too emotional or strained. Maybe that's not good, but it is what it is.

However...she is resisting blocking his number. She's resisting transparency because, in her absolute stubbornness she "doesn't want to feel controlled" and because she chafes so hard against any restrictions to her "freedom."

She has told me (and I have verified by checking phone records) that she and him have text messaged each other twice in the last week--one or two messages each time. Yesterday she said she's reluctant to cut him completely out of her life, when she's still not sure that we can make it work. Of course, I told her there is NO chance we can make it work while he's still in the picture AT ALL... which she says she understands, but she apparently is not 100% committed to R.

Getting rid of FB is an option, but not a very good one--it's, in fact, pretty important to her career. Blocking him is a no-brainer, which last night she said she will do.

I would love to talk to Dr. Harley, but unfortunately finances are not such that it would be a struggle to even afford 1 session. I think he could talk some sense into her, because at this point she doesn't seem to put any stock in what I say, so it's hard for me to get through to her. We are going to start going to MC, hopefully this week.

The biggest obstacle right now, IMO, is her lack of respect for me. The beginning of our marriage started with me making some pretty big mistakes. Huge, even. Among other things, I feared my friends & family wouldn't accept that I was getting married so quickly so I hid our plans from them while I tried to "ease them in" and it backfired horribly. I regret it deeply, and I understand why she lost respect for me, but she apparently struggled to ever get over that. She doesn't respect me now, and her vague claims that I "need to be a man" and "demand respect from everyone" don't give me enough guidance to actually earn her respect back. On top of this, the fact that I exposed the A to her family, she says, shows that I was weak and a "baby" and she lost any shred of respect for me after that. She doesn't understand that I did it because I was trying to PROTECT our marriage. In fact, she's so upset about it, she says if I truly believe exposure was the only way to destroy the A and protect our marriage, that we're simply incompatible because I'm delusional. I don't know what SHE thought would've been the best way to "protect our marriage."

So this a.m., I'm left thinking...maybe we ARE incompatible. Of course, after talking about all this last night, she did call me on my way to work this morning and say she loved me and thought we could work it out.

I think I'm back in the fog. Or I never left. I have no plan right now, but I'm trying to come up with one.

You can earn the respect by NOT accepting the situation.

You are listening your WWs fog talk too much. Stop listening people who have NO excperience with dealing of infidelity. Of course she is angry - you ruined her affair!

The non-negotiable sequence of steps for solving your situation is Exposure->NC->Withdrawal->Recovery.

You have not achieved the NC even yet.

she is cake eating and I suspect all is ready to resume affair as soon as her meal ticket... you .. have been suitably put back into your place. Pat you on the head and rub your tummy.

she will do this as long as you allow it to happen. Its a choice YOU will make.

stuck... women do not respect men who habitually give in to them.... you may be as PC as you like but it was true in my mums day .. heck it was true back in the days ancient Rome.... as it is today.

Her complaints about your exposure are complete rubbish and are intended to put you on the defensive because from past experience during the M she knows this puts her in the driving seat ... so she is doing it again... its very obvious as we read your posts she is very good at manipulating you. sadly you let her do it by inaction.

Stuck take this as an absolute truth ..from a former WW - NOT ONE THING YOU DID OR DID NOT DO CAUSED YOUR WW AFFAIR!!! She CHOSE to do this.. I did and so did EVERY person who had an affair.

NO ONE pretends that what is advised to do is easy.. if it was easy you would not be here would you? Its hard... its frightening at times... it hurts you in the place you feel most vulnerable... but its action you MUST take to have a chance at saving your M.

She is blowing smoke up your you know what on a lot of issues right now. She is busy re-fogging as you sit and watch.

Demand NC,,, demand it for work and outside of work. Stuck I had to give up.. I WANTED to give up ... the career I had which helped allow the circumstances for my affair. WHY? because it would help both my DH and MYSELF in recovering and rebuilding our M. COMPLETE change to another workplace... work industry...people I interacted with ...your wife has to do much the same. WHY does she have to play music with OM? to be blunt again .... that's just crap and you buy into it... and THAT Stuck is manipulation by your WW.

Stuck it may be again a simple question you don't want to face.. her career as it is now or ... YOU

Stuck I think you do have a chance of recovering your M but you NEED to follow the advice you are getting on demanding NC and the consequences - NOT threats - that will follow if NC is not followed... if the NC letter does not go out .... that may be that YOU seek to sell the home.... that YOU look at divorce or separation and get legal advice.

The alternative that you seem to be heading towards right now is that your WW will continue her affair... continue sponging off you .... and you will be willing for that to happen. You do not deserve that Stuck.

PLEASE PLEASE if you simply cannot bring yourself to do as advised to kill this affair go and see a lawyer and protect yourself as much as possible and go for separation and perhaps a divorce.

Do not think your wife will give a tinkers damn about you while in an affair ??? .. she will not. In an affair you are selfish... entitled... a real class A beach!!! She is NOT the woman you married right at this moment.

Its all up to you mostly Stuck... do as advised by the letter or don't ... the results are pretty clear.

remember this about respect ... ACTIONS speak louder than all the grand words in the world.

She is still eating cake. If there is any contact at all, there is still an affair. She threw you a bone and now you are back right where you were before. Tell her to leave.

Stuck, yeah what she said, double!

I get it...

The first step is really, firmly establishing no-contact. I sent her an e-mail this morning demanding NC from OM. Not in a selfish demand way... but as MB says, in a way that says it's simply too painful and any contact at all is reopening the wound for me, and if we have any hope of healing he needs to be out. Cell number blocked/changed, FB blocked, the band made clear that OM was not to be involved with them at any cost.

This made me very nervous, but now waiting and seeing what she says. We frequently e-mail in the morning, so this is a common way for us to communicate, since phone/in person isn't possible for most of the day.

If she agrees with NC now, the next step is transparency, which is another hill to climb. If she doesn't agree to complete NC, I guess I know where she stands, and I'll have to be ready to enforce the consequence.

Sometimes I feel like I'm faking being strong, while inside I'm a lost little kid. Now's one of those times.

I just talked to WW. She deleted his phone number and we're in the process of getting his number blocked. She deleted him and blocked him from facebook, and has agreed to go full-NC.

She had a facebook post up that referenced me yesterday, and OM put a snide comment up under it. Apparently this annoyed HER enough (let alone me) to make her realize how cruel it was, and understand why NC had to happen.

I believe she WANTS to try R, but is so unsure it would be successful that she's terrified of...everything. She's a scared individual.

This is a win, but I'm not naive enough to get my hopes up. I need to make sure she sticks with it, and step 2--transparency--is just as important. We are definitely still in the "surviving an affair" mode and not yet to "recovery" mode.

Stuck its a beginning. An opportunity to talk to the vets here and put together a PLAN for recovery.

No plan = FAILURE.

Can you try to get a session with one of the Harley's? Yes not cheap but I am sure some vets here will be able to confirm that divorce was so so much more expensive. If it has to happen then ok you do it... but don't fail because of few $$

DO NOT settle for words... demand action and CHECK that what is said is done.

Think about what you want in a M. What boundaries should be in place for both of you. There some which are NOT negotiable like no contact with OM for LIFE!!! and so on. Write them down for later discussions with your wife ... hopefully a starter FORMER WW now. We'll see.

Promises are easy to make... harder to keep. A healthy skepticism is ok for now.

what about the band? I would think the band has no interest in excluding OM ... again CHECK what is happening against what is said.

Its the old ok I am willing to trust a bit BUT verify process right now. You just quietly go check what is going on.

do not just accept her back without conditions... talk to the vets here asap.

Thanks Aussie.

You're right that divorce is much more expensive than the cost of a session with the Harleys... I'll see if I can get WW on board with that. Do the vets here really think 1 session with the Harleys will be that productive? Seems like the first half of the session would be simply explaining the situation.

Most of the past 2 days has been spent dealing with a death in her family. We haven't crafted the NC letter yet, but there hasn't been any contact for several days... we agreed today would be the day to make NC official. She even said yesterday night that she'd already basically stopped thinking about him, and was pretty surprised how quickly her feelings were changing. That doesn't surprise me, however...she's always thought with her heart and moved FAST from one thing to the next.

She's making an appointment with a counselor today. She admitted yesterday she's legitimately depressed (ya think?!?) and wants help. We're going to make a MC appointment shortly also, within the next week... but we both want her to talk about her feelings with another counselor before MC, so she doesn't end up monopolizing the MC with it.

No plan for transparency yet--I'm hoping a MC will help broach that subject and make her see the value in it, without making her feel controlled or smothered. I've said that trust needs to be earned back, not assumed, so she knows SOMETHING will have to happen. At this point, hearing things from 3rd parties is more effective than her hearing things from me... if I say I need transparency, it sounds like a selfish demand to her. If someone else says it, she thinks "Ok, maybe it really IS important."

That's kind of a problem in itself, but 1 thing at a time.

I haven't decided how to deal with the band yet. They really do like me, and associate with OM so rarely it wouldn't be a problem for me to talk to them about cutting OM off. In addition... they're older, and have dealt with similar situations themselves, so they understand. I'm more concerned about it sucking more points out of the love bank, the way exposure did. Any mention of exposure to her family still sucks points out of the bank. I think I'll wait and ponder the band situation for now.

I am going to make a list of boundaries, and the way I want my M to be post-affair. This will be a good exercise for me.

Here's hoping WW is a future FWW in the making. I'm still not getting ahead of myself though.

Just so I understand: your WW is writing a NC letter, but may still be in contact with OM through working with the band?

Hey I just caught up on your thread, glad to see some progress - you seemed to disappear there for a while - or maybe I am reading too many threads. Maybe I need more of a challenging personal life LOL

If you are going into recovery its no picnic. I can tell you that, its hard work.

Make sure she keeps up her end of the bargain thats for sure.

Finally, wow was I ever enthusiastic about exposure on your thread or what! I must have been high on adrenaline after doing it...!

No! Incorrect. I should have clarified. There will be no contact. But if I don't bring up the situation to the band and specifically ask for a lifelong ban, there is a SLIGHT risk one of them could raise the concept of working with him at a later date. The good news is WW has no say in scheduling/creating shows, so any risk of contact starts with the other bandmates and not her, and I'd catch wind of it before any contact happened.

Either way, I guess I just answered my own question. I gotta talk to the band and make sure they know specifically what needs to happen.

@Reynolds--thanks for being involved! You sure were enthusiastic about exposure. And I can firmly say, no matter how angry it made me WW, without exposure my situation would be MUCH worse.

I did disappear for a while, but I'm back now. In some ways, I was ashamed I wasn't doing a better job of saving my marriage and didn't want to reveal my inadequacy to the board. I'm over that now... what I am is what I am, and I will do my best to save my marriage.

Stuck everyone who has commented on the forum who has spoken to one of the Harley's said they did more in one session than many MC's did in 4 or 5. As I understand the process they go straight to the issues at hand ... none of the when you were 12 years old and so on and so forth.

perhaps others can comment on their experiences for you.

Do I think it is useful? YES YES It took some time for me to go to counseling and it made it so much harder to get to the meaty issues. YOUR WIFE needs what Harley's can give her... so may you.

OK set a date for the NC letter... a few days for family grieving is ok ... DON'T let it go..very important ... there are NC templates here you can use..ask people for them.
She writes it perhaps based on some examples you get from here..no gushy stuff from her to OM .... YOU approve it and YOU send it off... or she can go with you to post it. DON'T rely on her to send it by herself .... if she wants to do that ...red flag she probably wouldn't send it.

MC and individual counseling are entirely different animals that's why I suggest Harleys for MC they are the adultery experts ...most MC dont know how to save marriages with cheating in it. Most seem to want to prepare you for D. But your choice how you do this. Read the article about choosing a good MC on this site here
How to choose a good MC

Stuck DO NOT try to educate your wife .. it comes across as lecturing and is a big LB for her ... and right now anything you say anyway is treated as BS .. no not "betrayed spouse" the other stuff!! or at the best with suspicion... that's also why a GOOD MC is so important. From personal experience when our MC said something it really hit me... not so much when family said the same.

The band issue .... very simple Stuck ... you want the affair to continue or flare up again??? then let the issue go "for now". I think from your info that you could talk to the band and if its just not possible to exclude OM then it IS going to be choice for your WW to make ... YOU or the BAND. That is a consequence of her actions it is not your fault... its her's. NC for life means BLOODY NC FOR LIFE!!!! Do not let her talk you into anything else.

Stuck you have a tendency to excuse and make allowances for your WW ... this is dangerous for your M. It comes from a habit of avoiding conflict with her. This is another reason for a GOOD MC. A GOOD MC will show you how to disagree and argue fairly ... its not easy I can tell you ... I had to learn and so do you and your WW.

The other danger is that you will "settle" for crumbs from your WW ... don't you dare!! Look how quickly some positive signs from your WW happened when you insisted on a few respectful boundaries!!! Ok so not all was achieved.. but remember it was skirmish in a war.. you aim to win the war.

you have a great opportunity right now ... GET a Harley involved now... set it up and talk to your WW saying its the MC you wish to use as they have fantastic results ... if your ww is serious she will be ok with any good MC so why not the Harleys???

In our experience, my H emailed a letter to Steve Harley before speaking on the phone to him to fill him in on our issues.

Bumping up to the top.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2469318&page=1

I don't think you are ready to be on the recovery board yet, IMVHO. You are NO WHERE NEAR recovery yet.

There are still MANY red flags in your sitch than just the fact that your WW will not give up FB and would NEVER give up her music career. You also mentioned on your "recovery" thread that she went out on a girl's night out on Saturday and although you were against it, you didn't stop her from going. How do you KNOW she didn't contact OM? How do you KNOW that she was where she said she was? How do you KNOW there isn't a NEW OM?

I suppose you're right, in many ways. I'm frankly exhausted right now--I've spent years trying to defend her music career. The A did not happen because of her music career, it happened because she was selfish, entitled, with too much time on her hands and terrible/nonexistent boundaries.

No, I didn't stop her from going out on Saturday. I checked all our phone records, she hasn't had any contact with OM for weeks, I am fairly certain of this and 99% certain she did not meet up with him Saturday. But I guess I can't "know." Nor can I "know" if she's with another OM (but that would blow my mind beyond belief). But how can I ever "know"? Unless I put a GPS in her car (and even then I won't "know" because they never met at his house, they met elsewhere). She could say she's just at the store, or the mall, or whatever parking lot they're in. I don't even want to think about these details now, honestly. Despite whatever transparency I implement, she could STILL find ways to sneak around if she REALLY wanted.

I'm pretty exhausted. And now I'm kind of upset thinking about the affair, too. Sigh. She's meeting me after work so we can go out--I'm going to try to get my head in a better place so I can plan A some more, instead of belaboring her about the affair.

Stuck,

As the betrayed spouse, we have to take responsibility for our own boundary enforcement. What are your boundaries right now? It doesn't sound like you have any...

You needed to set the bar for what you expected from your W in this R once the A ended.

If she won't do what is in the Requirements for Recovery, my recommendation always is to call the coaching center to see if they can get the WS on board. If that too fails, you really need to look at Plan B. You can't just keep Plan A'ing indefinitely...

This was posted to Andy. I really think this applies to your sitch, Stuck.

Susie, this is very very good advice. I'm going to think about how to present this to her. It does feel like every conversation we have about our relationship is withdrawing LB$ but... this needs to happen. I am very sad this morning, and part of it is thinking about the lack of consequences for her A, and the sheer cruelty of it all, and her reluctance to meet key conditions for recovery. I clearly can't live like this for an extended period of time.

Rough morning. Thanks for the post.

Its tough Stuck when they say WWs can't be brought to heel like WHs. Its more sales and plan A, and the ladies are lucky cause they get to kick the crap out of WHs...lucky being a relative term here I guess.

Hang in there.

So... I'm going to provide a fuller update in a few minutes, but first I want some opinions. I'm really pretty amped up and anxious right now.

WW has gone NC with OM for the past few weeks--we've done everything but changed phone numbers and e-mail addresses. So, OM sends her an e-mail that says "Happy Valentine's Day baby, I miss you, do you miss me?" over the weekend. She has been transparent, and I do not believe she did anything to prompt this.

Understanding that my own failure to change e-mail address/phone numbers yet led to this, I finally called up OM and yelled at him. Told him to stay the F away from my wife, that if he EVER contacts her again things will get more ugly than he can imagine. And hung up.

Now, of course, he's calling me incessantly and sending me all kinds of texts telling me threats "aren't cool" and lying about how he e-mailed her and such.

So 1. obviously I'm changing e-mail addresses and phone numbers now.

And 2. Was this the right thing to do? I'll admit I feel better, like I stood up for my family, but I'm also having doubts from the babble this guy is texting me incessantly.

Yes, Stuck, I think you did just fine by calling out that POSOM. I'm sure it was a bit of a downer for him to be looking for his fix, and her husband responds! Nice.

Now get those emails and cell phone numbers changed!!! Chop-chop! Today! What were you thinking, Stuck??

ITA with MB. Could also have been the GF who sent it just to see if POSOM was gonna get a response. But who cares, get rid of the number and email address.

Well deserved . I am on this TODAY. Funny how seeing the unfortunate results of your inaction really makes you WANT to act.

Stuck you did exactly what any of us would have done.

Marital if you're still here can I get two minutes of your time? Sorry to hijack.

It takes no time at all, Stuck. AND your phone company should change your numbers for free for the first time. Mine did.

Bueno, Reynolds.

Thanks guys... little sanity checks are good.

So now, we're at almost full NC with OM. She HAS agreed to transparency, and she's keeping FB but he's blocked. The good news is I think the fog is lifting, faster than I thought was possible.

In some ways, I dodged a bullet because POSOM shot himself. And he's a real piece of trash. Turns out she already started to really distrust him (he was constantly texting and would flip out when she tried to look at his phone), and after hearing that he put all the blame on her (and said, a few times "I don't even want her dude!") she realized he's not the "man" she thought he was. Much of the illusion was shattered.

I won't be SURPRISED if there are relapses but I feel like it's unlikely. There isn't much withdrawal left. She just said she feels used, sick to her stomach, and stupid. I'm hoping that as these feelings in her come to life, she'll be able to finally start thinking about me and my ENs, and she'll be open to the full MB program.

I've been sending her articles, and she's been reading them. I haven't sent her to the website because she's pretty tech savvy and I'm a little afraid she'll find this forum and be hurt/upset at my previous threads.

So yes, in that light we still have a long ways to go. She's still a BIT upset about exposure, and last night put the blame on ME for making her family dislike her. I didn't like that, but I think today's events have had a big impact on making her think about her decisions.

Now, I'm trying to toe the line between comforting her (i.e. enabling her), and letting her feel the consequences of her actions. I don't want to rub it in ("you SHOULD feel disgusted and stupid!") but don't want to make her feel like what happened was ok OR his responsibility.

Additional question--what's the opinion on post-nuptial agreements around here? Something saying "If WW cheats again, WW forfeits all spousal support/splitting of such-and-such assets."

Suggesting that might be a huge $LB withdrawal. However, living in a no-fault spousal support state (groan), she could cheat on me again, divorce me, and because she's an "under the table" musician the law would probably demand I give her a TON of money to reward her for her infidelity.

Thoughts?

Hi Stuck, a post nup would be a good idea, but how would you prove an affair in a legal way? A keylogger would be unadmissible I would think. Plus you are right a HUGE withdrawl. As much as it gives you less comfort, I would think you were better off just affair proofing your marriage and following the principles here. And snooping whenever you feel like it haha.

You are right you shouldn't let her read your thread until far far into recovery when she knows exactly what she did and takes responsibility for it.

HELL YEAH! Way to be a warrior for your family. He's a bottom feeder, so of course he'll slime his way around and whine about it...... make no mistake, he is now officially scared sh!tless of you!

Kudos, StuckWaiting. I still wish I'd have had a similar conversation with my WXW's slimy politician OM, so I'll live vicariously through you.!

Reynolds--you're right, proving an affair would be tough to do on legal grounds. Maybe that's not such a good idea after all. Affair proofing is the way to go, I just need to make sure my WW is able to handle the full MB program... it takes 2 to affair proof.


Thanks Arpeggi. I wish I had done it sooner (he spouted all kinds of stuff like "let's leave the past in the past" because the meat of the A was back from November-January, but he still was attempting contact as early as last Saturday). But it still felt good. I think he IS scared, because the last message he sent me was about 6 hours after our conversation ended, and it was a "You really don't have to worry about me anymore, it's no longer an issue" message. With added slime, of course.

GOD what a slimeball. Such a manipulator. My WW was certainly angry when she figured out the "MAN" she had an affair with (while claiming I wasn't man enough for her, and she needed a real man) crawled into a corner and pretended like he didn't want WW, and said "I am soooo not in you or her life and don't want to be!"

What a man.

The best email I ever sent was the one I sent to OM asking if his GF was tearing up the premarital australia visa app after exposure.

I may frame that one and hang it on the wall in the garage. (Living room if I end up divorced:))

He's a sleaze... in the Wild West men knew how to settle this kind of thing a lot more appropriately, if you know what I mean.

But it blows my mind - WWs are so much more gullible than WHs IMHO.... I have NO IDEA how they delude themselves SO DEEPLY into believing that they are sooooooo special and important to a man they KNOW to be a cheat and a liar to others.

And I also think it's really hard for WWs to "humble" themselves in this cultural climate, to swallow their false pride, and admit to themselves that their BHs actually DO now hold the moral compass in the family..... they can't deal with that blow to their pride (which I think is fed to them by our culture). Uck.

This is very true. In the coming days, I'm going to slowly pry the moral compass out of her fingers. It'll be pretty much impossible for her to argue that her moral compass is ok, though I'm sure she'll try.

Maybe now she recognizes that I really DO have the best interest of our family in mind, and I DO know what I'm talking about some of the time.

Ok honey, do you UNDERSTAND that you can't trust men now just because "they know you're married"??

Well... WW had a show this weekend in a far-off town. I know most of the board (and Harley too, probably) dislike the fact that WW is a musician and has to travel, sometimes without me. I dislike this too, but for now it's a condition of our M.

That said--I trust her not to have a one night stand, and we kept in constant contact throughout the weekend. She's been transparent and there's been NC with OM since I drove him off with a . My MIL had a long talk with her a few nights ago and it seems like she ACTUALLY began getting through to WW... WW broke down on the phone, cried a bunch, and MIL said "this is what BH needs to see from you to facilitate his healing, if you want R to work."

When she came home, she had gotten me a few little trinkets, and bought me a card w/ a very long note written inside. She claimed to be extremely sorry, and realized she still didn't know just how much she hurt me, and that I was her rock and she'd fall without me. That she knew she needed to spend the rest of her life helping me heal, forgive, and ensure no other A was possible. Some very nice things to hear, but I still want more...in person. Think there will be some good talking happening tonight. She got back pretty late last night, so we weren't able to talk much.

Now, as I'm hitting the point where I'm laying down guidelines and needs for R to work, I'm starting to get a little freaked out... intimidated... and am getting hammered with all the emotion and resentment that was tucked away while I was actively in "kill the affair" plan A mode. Thinking about recovery unleashes a whole host of emotions.

I.e... I took care of you and supported you for 3 years, fought through your anxiety issues and career switches (even while buying a house and brand new car) and you repay me with... THIS?! There is going to be a lot of self-work I have to do here. And she'll have some atoning to do.

I hear you stuck. Its hard to keep a lid on the resentment, but it will not serve your interests. Get that taker chained up.

SW, you have alluded to the fact that you have seen the need to "man up", and from the sounds of developments you're not only doing just that, but FWW seems to have noticed as well.

Please don't blow it.

I took care of you and supported you for 3 years, fought through your anxiety issues and career switches (even while buying a house and brand new car) and you repay me with... THIS?!

If you must, tell that to us. Tell us loudly, incessantly, irritatingly. YELL it to us if you must. But after you hit the "Submit" button, let it go until you come back here to do it again.

Someday, many, many, years down the line, she's going to come to you, and mention that she realizes how badly she hurt you. MAYBE then you can reveal a little bit of the resentment you have libertry to tell US now.

Here's the situation: She can NEVER undo what it was she did to you, no matter how long or hard she tries. Your hope, and hopefully, her mission, is that she now does everything she can, jointly with you, to create a new union that blots out the bad memories.

So if, on balance, she cannot undo the damage, and you need, and deserve, her best efforts to create a better future, you will be acting counterproductively by reliving the past.

You will be doing yourself a great service if you block out the bad-old-days, as completely as you blocked POSOM's phone calls.

(In my entire recovery effort, the only thing I would have changed would have been to discover this about six months sooner.)

Good luck, keep fighting, and keep the eyes on the prize!

Your WW having to go on the road to be a musician is bulloney.

That statment has the Bull Manure meter peg on full load flies and all.

WW had an affair causes her to work jobs close to home now post affair. WW wants to complain and be mad? Tell to get a mirror and complain to the mirror's image.

You allowed this to remain a condition of your marriage??? Isn't this what got you into trouble in the first place??

You trust your wayward wife to be faithful to you???

Thanks for your input guys, but I feel like I've addressed these things many times, and am frankly a little tired of every single post of mine being responded to with a number of "I can't believe your wife still goes on the road" posts. Her being on the road had virtually nothing to do with the A. Below are the reasons I still allow her to be on the road.

A. Her affair happened locally
B. We could not afford our house, car, and bills without her music job and stability is extra important right now
C. Her older, married cousin and his wife are in the band and always travel with her.

I've also noted she would choose music over me at this point--and have had numerous conversations with her family about how that will take TIME to overcome, and simply making her choose at this point would drive her away. She wouldn't "complain and be mad" she'd either resent me forever, or leave. If she's willing to meet my conditions for R, I'm willing to allow time for her priorities to realign and her self-idolizing to crash down (as it already is heading that direction).

That said--thanks Reynolds and NeverGuessed for the support.

Okay, Stuck, but I've got a question:
what actions has she taken to show you her commitment to this marriage?

Ending the A, for starters...and going NC. Don't the Harleys say that's the first, and biggest, act of "compensation" they can do?

Blocking him on FB, deleting any mutual friends, and letting me block his number from both our phones.

We've talked about IB and she has acknowledged that IB is bad and has agreed it doesn't have a place in our marriage--especially things like going out to bars or dancing without me. She will no longer do these things.

We *still* need to talk about some of the other conditions I need, which include strengthening boundaries (no male friends, namely).

She's been reading every article, MB and otherwise, that I send her. She has apologized several times, though I still want more. She has agreed to MC. She has said things like "I will work to make sure I never, ever hurt you this way again." Obviously words need to be followed by action.

So, she's agreeing to some of the conditions that would affairproof our marriage, but I know there is still a long way to go.

Today is one of those "I just can't do this" days. I'm having a hard time healing.

She's doing everything I ask of her...mostly. We've been spending ALL our time together over the past week. Great UA, very little LB (though we had a little episode Saturday night, which we got over pretty quickly).

The only thing I want more of, is sensitivity and an understanding of the depth of my wound. She said she was surprised I reacted so strongly to her A, because "I knew how unhappy she had been." It's true, I did. But it blows my mind that she expected me to be "more understanding" of her A. That alone tells me she doesn't quite grasp how badly she hurt me.

In our episode on Saturday, I had been melancholy all day... which sucks, plain and simple. I know if I'm too down all the time, I'm no fun to be around and she won't want to be with me. This was the point of plan A--being strong and confident, which makes you desirable. But somehow, I couldn't shake the mental images and depression on Saturday, it came out, and she complained that I'd been like that all day, and was "ruining our Saturday." I wanted to say "Do you know how many days you ruined for ME?" but I didn't, I just acknowledged it wasn't good for our M for me to be so emotional.

So I guess now I'm struggling to shake off the resentment, hurt, and anger, so I can build my M. I can't be such a downer all the time. Do I need antidepressants? Wouldn't that have SF side effects (I have SF confidence issues already, thanks OM!). How do others shake off the negativity so you can actually enjoy your time together? I get that SHE needs to help me heal (she's trying) but I do need to help myself too, and I'm a little frustrated. It feels like I'm in the same place I was a month ago, or worse.

It was good that you acknowledged.

It was bad that you did not "Do you know how many days you ruined for ME?" in a calm manner.

Then in the same calm manner ask WW, with her affair is over and does looking at her past actions during the affair make her sad.

Trickle truth.

Turns out there was OM #2. She just came clean. I knew there was a close call, and I reamed her for it back in December or whenever. She got mad, said I couldn't control her, because we weren't "together" anyway (duh, because she'd left me).

The "close call" was closer than I thought. It was making out, some groping--with a friend of a friend that was at our house. All kinds of bad decisions. So, no true "one night stand" kind of thing, but this still counts as OM#2 in my eyes.

She felt we weren't "together" so it shouldn't count as cheating even though it hurt me. In fact, she felt guilty for "leading him on" but... apparently didn't feel guilty about hurting me??

I am reeling. Not quite sure what I'm supposed to do now.

SW,

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20035363-10391704.html

64% of head, neck and oral cavity cancers are now caused by HPV!

While the statistics might be questionable, I would say that kissing is no longer trivial.

God Bless
Gamma

I am so sorry Stuck, try to stay strong.

You know they went all the way, right? They're not teenage virgins. They had sex. Your WW is trying to minimize it for you.

Sorry....

I don't know. I got a lot of detail on the entire night, and read a series of text messages between her and her friend who was also there that night. Based on that, I don't THINK they had sex, but then I can't really KNOW that, can I?

I'm really not sure what to do now. Give up? This was something that happened several months ago. There is nothing to expose (some mid-20s kid trying to get with my wife, who was claiming she was getting a divorce and could do what she wanted). "Exposing" this next act to her family or my family doesn't seem like it would do any good. I'm a little stuck.

She was, in fact, extremely remorseful when I pried her for details about everything. Which is a departure from the norm. I got a lot of "I was so stupid, I will never do anything like this again" and "I hate myself for hurting you, and hate everything that I've done" talk.

No matter how many people say "trickle truth is BAD, get it all out NOW," waywards rarely seem to get it.

I feel a bit like I'm back at day 1.

You are in a tough spot. You have already realized, from the beginning, it will be VERY difficult for you to get over the resentment. And your W is working in a field that lends itself to A's. What if she becomes more famous than she is now? A rock star? What of the temptations then?

Does your M have a strong enough foundation to heal? Does your WW value family and M enough to make the tough decisions?

It is hard to make these decisions when you are recovering from an A. She is fogged and not thinking clearly, and you are hurting.

My suggestion would be to get yourself to a place of healing, a place of forgiveness and then take an inventory your M, say in a year, determine if the threat still exists, are you set up for more betrayal, or are you fully recovered.

If you are not confident in your recovery, I would say it is time to let that wild filly loose, otherwise, continue to work on your M, it's a keeper.

So, like you wrote before, put in the work you know your M needs, do what you can to be proud of working for your M. But set a date you can look back at how much work there still is to do and make a decision about staying in or going.

My instinct about the situation is she is a renter, and you can't have a happy M with a renter. She may have always been a renter, or she may have been a buyer at one time and she is just a renter short time.

Look for the book, "Buyers, renters, freeloaders" (I think that is the title) and I think it has a new name now.

I've certainly thought of this. We both have. My inclination is that, in this place, her career will coast for a while without trending up or down. But we'll see. We, and others, jokingly call her a rock star already. This is the commitment stuff we really need to nail down before I can feel safe and secure--or leave...

My WW always had a very strong commitment to family, and I THOUGHT M. But I was wrong about her M commitment, clearly. Exposing to her family is the biggest reason her A ended the way it did (she values family very highly) but they provided terrible FOO examples of marriage commitment, so... I guess time will have to tell on this one too.


Funny you use this analogy. In the days after D-Day and before separation, she began weeping when the song "Wild Horses" came on the radio. She wanted to be "free" then.

Well... I think I will be taking your advice... and continuing with the MB program for a while. The last few days HAVE brought breakthroughs (remorse, agreeing to cut out male friends, agreement on boundaries), it's just a horrible shame that it had to come with the revelation of another possible A while I was out of the house.

Note to others: Do not leave your marital home. Lesson learned.

I always thought she was a buyer, but now I see she had a lot of renter tendencies. I'm going to have to watch those and see if I can help migrate them to buyer tendencies.

Killing the A is the easy part, isn't it. Recovery is the real challenge.

It's tough, you can't make a buyer out of a renter. there is only so much you can do, and the rest is on her. Do not make excuses for her, she knows what she did and what the consequences were.

So there is hope for change, but not much you can do about her. The part you can work on is you. So you become the best H you can be and after time if she is still renting, then you have your answer...

Do you have a time in mind? Some say it takes 2 years to fully recover from an A. Is that too long or too little?

True, all I can do is work on myself--I can't change her status as renter or buyer. I am working on being the best H I can be... seeing an IC, adhering to MB principles and working HARD to get away from Plan Doormat forever and be a strong, in(ter?)dependent, healthy H.

As for a timeframe--if things revert back to how our M was before the A, I don't think I could make it 6 months.

Assuming she holds up her part of the bargain the way she has the past few weeks, I could make it a year in this state.

But I do think that within a year, I'll need to see lasting change. 2 years is too long to wait, for me. I understand in 2 years I might still be feeling the pain... in 1 year, I will for sure. But I'm too young and unattached (no kids) to accept a marriage where I'm constantly worried about my W who can't keep her promises. If she is still backpedaling in a year, if she's still renting and trying to put the burden of our M entirely on myself, I'll have to throw in the towel.

I absolutely have hope right now, since she's shown so much progress in the last week or two. But... I'm too young to waste 2 years of my life *hoping* I'll be able to feel safe and secure afterwards.

Another reason trickle truth is bad... now, I find myself wondering and doubting if I know the truth about everything that happened during the period I was out of the house.

I guess I was naive to assume there was only the 1 OM, the man she left me for.

In my heart, I want to believe there is nothing else for me to know. But I can't wonder forever.

It's a shame this new OM came out when we were moving so well toward recovery. It feels like another D-Day. I had a great evening with her yesterday, but today am wracked by doubt again... which means I'll need to dredge up more gory details, which removes from $LB instead of depositing into it. I guess I can't feel bad about having to have more "affair talk" because it's her own trickle-truth that's dragging it out.

There's no hurry Stuck, I agree with taking your time and setting a date to check progress.

Even if you want to take a week or two now and just try to enjoy each other. You can wrestle with the demons about OM2 a little later.

Hang in there brother.

Love Busters attack. I've been reading Mortarman's threads from the past and have been getting tons of good information from them.... and now I see that Dr. Harley really is right, the BS is the one who poses the greatest risk to recovery.

I'd been good at avoiding LB's lately, but failed yesterday.

We've addressed OM2 to an extent--I believe she's telling me the truth about everything that happened... we've had some good nights, and visit #1 to a MC who proved frustratingly unhelpful. I'm not looking forward to our next visit on Monday. I'm really going to lay it all out there and say "can you help with XXX XXX and XXX?" instead of leaving the MC to smile fondly and say "looks like you guys are doing great!" which is all she did. No, we're not doing great, it's been 2 months since my wife ended her affair and I'm a wreck.

Anyway. Yesterday, she was talking about how her IC and her came to the conclusion that alcohol was bad. The first time OM and her really got physical, alcohol was involved. She went off on this for 15 minutes, and I finally interrupted by saying sharply "you didn't bother to listen to me during the last 2 years when I told you alcohol was dangerous for you?" It was a mix of AO and DJ. Yup, she hated that, and it was bad. She, in turn, AOed me. Our takers were out in full force. I felt like she was blaming her A on alcohol and not taking responsibility, thus the AO I had... not good.

We eventually recovered, but she has really strong IB... saying she needed to come to the conclusion that she shouldn't drink without me on her own, that my trying to tell her that would make her rebel. These IB's are going to be the biggest killer for our M, more than anything else.

She's still not on board with MB... some ideas, yes, but POJA and LBs, no. She doesn't see why IBs are bad. And doesn't want to talk to the Harleys because it's too much $$$, and think they'll just tell her what a bad person she is without blaming me for any of our problems.

It's still a rollercoaster. There are definitely times when I wonder, "Why should I keep trying?"

Stuck - I think I understand your frustration, but you should keep trying, because YOU care. If you don't care anymore about the ultimate prize, then I think you take a breather, make sure that's your 'final answer' and file for a D. Done! But be sure before you pull that ripcord though - that you've made peace with that decision. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say, 'I, Stuck, did all I could to save my marriage.'?

You're young and you have a lot of 'tomorrows' ahead of you, so take that into consideration as well. My first wife changed her mind about having kids, after we got married, and I was in my mid-30s at the time. That was a deal breaker for me, so be sure to reflect on ALL your hopes and dreams when approaching this decision. Don't be afraid to share those with your WW, with no pressure or expectations from WW. You need to do all you can to have a happy life and this decision is a fork in the road of life!

Stuck,

Is not really IB, it is childish thinking and represents a bigger threat to your marriage than her affairs.

A spouse that won't listen to another one, who won't accept that the spouse has her best in his heart, is not good marriage material. This isn't about love or no love, this about someone who has not matured enough to stop the childish rebellion. Rebellion to advice as a first reaction, is not a person capable of being a good spouse.

I think her telling you about OM #2 is a good thing, but I think that her basic philosophy of life is that of a child and frankly children don't make good wives, not to mention that pedophilia is really disgusting thing.

You have some serious decisions to make, and frankly you keep waiting for your W to make them for you. She will not, she should not, she cannot. Only YOU can make the decision but you really need to start looking at the data. You are both very young, and clearly she is even younger than her age.

Think about this.

God Bless,

JL

"she's agreeing to some of the conditions that would affair proof our marriage." SOME? You need a cold shower to wake up from your fantasy, bud.