I am going to try my best to piece this story together for you. Sorry of it is long. I am currently devastated and looking for advice. What may make this story different from the others I have been reading is that wife is having a 10 month EA and PA with another woman.

I would have added the details to my signature, but it would not let me for some reason.
Me - 32 W - 32
S - 5 months
M - 2.5 years
T - 5 years
Bomb - 12/14/10 ILYBNILWY
PA discovered - 1/18/11

My wife and I have had a pretty good relationship from my ideas. There has never been any infidelity, physical violence, deep issues that can cause conflict. We have had our difficulties with communication at times, but what marriage doesn't? My wife and I decided that we wanted to have a baby and began starting in the Fall of 2009. We got pregnant in 11/09. During this time, we decided it would best to start seeing a marriage counselor to help with our communication skills before the baby arrived. These sessions began in the Spring of 2010 and appeared to be very helpful. We fought less. Worked on some of the strategies given. Things were looking better to me. It was also during this time that our therapist recommended that we give each other more free time on our own. I was working from home often, and my wife said that space in our small house concerned her. She began hanging out more with a new girlfriend from work more and more during her pregnancy. To me, I was happy for her. Her friend did not drink and was supportive. W had been sad that her older friends began to stray once my wife could not go out and party with them. The new girlfriend spent nearly everyday with W. At times I found it a bit odd, but I wanted to do my best to give my wife the independence with friends she was looking for. OW was married but was in the process of not being able to have children, so her marriage was rocky.

We also stopped seeing couples therapist in anticpation of our S arrival. Our S arrived on 8/14/10. Both of us were very happy. W's girlfriend was actually in the hospital with us, as W starting giving birth which was odd, but again I felt that this was my wife's new best friend giving support.

Shortly after the birth, W became very sad. Lots of crying. Staying in her bedroom with newborn S. Her mother and talked about post-pardum depression. A week later, my wife gave me a bomb. She was really unhappy. ILYBNILWY. She said that she had talked to her doc, and he told her not to make any major decisions. He believed post-pardum like the rest of us. I told myself it would get better and did everything I could to assist my wife with parenting. she also began seeing her own therapist.

W's girlfriend was working again while W was taking leave. She would come by on weekends. My wife complained that she felt locked in our home with the baby, so I encouraged her to get out. Still thinking post-pardum. My wife began spending more time with her girlfriend. Sometimes spending the night. Since girlfriend lived on the other side of town, I did not flinch when she would tell me S went to sleep and she would just spend the night on girlfriend's couch. This started to happen often. they began to do more and more things together and I was feeling left out emotionally. The Fall of 2010, I began considering the EA.

On 12/14/10, after a very small fight concerning movie tickets that I wanted to use to take my wife on a date (she wanted to take girlfriend), she dropped the big bomb. ILYBNILWY. She also told me that she had not returned to sleeping in our bed, because she did not want to. She did not want tany intemacy with me. For weeks, I had been encouraging her to our bed at night but had been patient while she nursed the baby at night. She said that she wanted space to think and left for her girlfriend's for a few nights.

***I am going to start a new post, because I know this is getting long.***

While away, I sent my W a very long thought out letter telling her how much I loved her and wanted to fight for our marriage. How much our marriage vows meant to me. I listed out things that I wanted to do to help with some of her concerns. Promised to give her space at home by going to work in the office. Promised to pick up more slack and be a good father to S. I told her that if we wanted to improve our marriage then we needed to make the commitment together. I suggested we go back to marriage counseling that we had stopped after the birth our our S. She agreed to go to therapist with me. In session told me that she was not sure if she had the strength to fight for us anymore. She was not in love with me. She wanted time to think. She said that she came to therapy this one time but was not ready to commit to more. Therapist recommended we at least work on co-parenting in case of failure. W agreed.

For the last month, I have read several books. Gottman. Fertel. Weiner-Davis. I am staying incredibly positive and acting like super husband/father around the house. Not one argument. No fights. When together, we get along great. She will however, disappear a few days at a time without warning. It crushes me, but I promised her that I would be patient while she discovered herself and her needs.

I began to suspect a PA on 1/16 after noticing some satin sleepwear in her overnight bag. She had been sleeping on girlfriends couch and had never slept in this stuff out our house. I then found more seductive lingerie in another bag in her closet that had never been in our home before. I began to look around and found a note in her bedside table written to her girlfriend and not delivered over the summer that explained how annoyed she was with couples therapy. she was stuck and only wanted to be with "you". this broke me. i began seeing a therapist on my own and introduced my concern. on 1/18, i logged into my wife's email. in a folder called "safe", i found 400 emails over the last 10 months between W and her girlfriend. PA was proven. It began in 3/2010 when wife was 4 months pregnant. Started with curiosities. OW married now but husband had know about her being gay for years. W was curious but committed to me. It took maybe a week before those concerns faded. First night was PG13. Two nights later, they had graphic sex in a park. There are hundreds of emails between them providing very graphic accounts of their adventures. Started in a park. Then at our house when I wasn't home. They escalated to being in love. They talked about how they would leave their husbands and live together with the baby forever. Girlfriend ended up leaving her husband over the summer. She moved into an apartment of her own. Wife now had a place to go to be intimate.

W and girlfriend spent everyday of the summer together while I was at work. Sex everyday. Very graphic sexual emails. In love. No cares. Embracing their new secret lesbian roles. After the baby, the OW spent less time over due to family in town and both were heart sick. Around the same time I got my first bomb, an email came from the OW that planned out an entire time line of an exit strategy. W replied that she was not comfortable with time and needed more time to figure things out with her therapist, but that she loved her and was looking forward to spending their life together. Leading up to the second bomb, W and OW spending every weekend together with S. Sometimes asking me if I would babysit S while they went off. I had no problems with that. I get quality time with baby and give the W a chance to get away without S.

I am now crushed. I still want to use the strategies provided here and by my therapist to let me wife know that I know about the PA. I am planning on writing a letter for myself to read in front of our original couples therapist. therapist agrees of importance of third party involvevement. have not asked W and can only hope she will agree. she really thinks I am in the dark about PA.

I can take all of the advice in the world that is out there about saving my marriage after a PA and am truly positive, but there is just no information out there for same sex PA. is my wife a lesbian and always has been? was it just an EA that got out of control and the excitement of PA took over? i can only imagine if my W is pushing the time line out and out that she has questions. we both come from strong and active families. her emails told over and over again how she did not want to hurt me or her mother.

what do i do? is there hope?

Slow down! An affair is an affair. It is the affair that takes away from the marriage that is the problem.

Provide more details about this exposure with couples therapist.

I say this because for you exposure is going to be very critical.

Just some of the things you will need to do before exposure.

1. Copy all e-mails.
2. Take a picture of letter from summer.
3. Gather as much information about OW. Family and friends.
4. Other posters will be on to add to this list.

Absolutely there is hope! The tactics we use to bust up any affair would be just as effective in your case. I would get the book Surviving an Affair and focus mainly on Plan A. The biggest weapon you have against the affair is exposure. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposure is ruinous. I would confront your wife about the affair and DEMAND that she end all contact with this woman for LIFE. Ask her to send her a no contact letter.

Here is what Dr Harley has said about lesbian affairs:
Here is the plan you should be in:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

How do you behave when she abuses you like this? Do you confront her or do you pretend like everything is ok? Because if it is the latter, you are giving her the impression that you don't care very much. For me, if my spouse disappeared for a few days like that, the locks would be changed and we would be sitting in front of a judge. I am curious why you would enable that kind of abuse? It doesnt' help your marriage one bit.

But no plan whatsoever to save your marriage? Co-parenting does not help your marriage one bit.

Thanks for the reply, Clark. I have printed out all of the emails and put in a safe place. I did this, however, just in case this ended up in court. I love wife and a custody battle is the last thing on my mind, but just in case in need proof of the PA, it is there. I have also scanned the letter from the summer.

OW is separated from husband since the PA started. As of this summer, she came out and told her family she was gay. Claims that her husband has known this for years, but they really wanted a baby. OW is telling W that this time line will be difficult, but will be great in the end. She knows it is hard, because she is half way through it.

Exposure for me is something that I am fearful of. Due to the sensitivity of the sexuality issues. I am afraid that by outing my wife out of the closet like this, there will be no coming back to me. To me, this is not a one month stand with a random guy. This is a gay woman causing my wife to explore her sexuality and desires to maybe be a lesbian.

Thanks Melody. She leaves days at a time due to the agreement that I would give her space right now. She still does not know that I know of A. I have been very supportive of her needs for space and told her that I will be patient while she decides if she is willing to work on the marriage. Once the A is out in the open, I am sure this will change.

As far as co-parenting, this was the option that our therapist recommended while W is in limbo. Since W is not sure if she has it in her and needs time, therapist said that even if split, this baby will be a bond between us forever and we need to learn how to be good co-parents... just in case.

You are headed to divorce now and she is less likely to come back to you if you DON'T expose. This affair is no more "sensitive" than any other affair. If you keep this affair secret, you are likely to lose your marriage. Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it a secret is to enable the affair; to contribute to the demise of your marriage.

You have nothing to lose. And everything to GAIN.

Yes, it should change. When a spouse "wants space" it is always so they can pursue an affair. I would not agree to this anymore.


Unfortunately, your therapist did not help you and your wife turn this around. And she probably didn't try to prevent your wife from "getting space" because she doesn't understand what this means. This is why marriage counselors are so destructive to marriages. They simply don't know what they are doing.

The exposure piece is really eating at me. I will be honest that I fear Dr. Harley's suggestions concerning exposure. Weiner-Davis has a very different view of exposure, as it could cause more harm then good. I am very conflicted with the advice given.

I also have concerns about the 400 pages of emails. When I come out to the wife about the A, I want to make sure that I do not divulge all of the email. If so, I am afraid that this avenue of the truth will quickly close.

Do I stay vague on how I know? Present vague examples that I could have gotten anywhere? If she denies, then bring out the heavier guns?

IF this can be saved, your best chance would come from exposing this affair wide and far to your wife's family and the OW's family. I would start with the OW's husband and give him your evidence. IF he has separated from his wife, this intel may be helpful in his divorce case.

Affairs are based on fantasies and when they are exposed to the world, it is ruinous to the affair. Dr Harley calls exposure the single most important step towards recovery:

here

Listen - your WW is on the verge of leaving, and is VERY likely to leave if you do nothing. What further harm are you talking about? At worst, she might leave sooner than expected, which can turn out to be a GOOD thing, as long drawn out situations like this can be absolute h*ll on a BS.

Exposure harms the affair, not the marriage. Exposure is the most important first step in saving a marriage. We have had many refugees from the DB board come here and save their marriages after having wasted valuable time on the DB board. MWD gives dreadful advice when it comes to saving marriages from affairs. She encourages people to ENABLE the affairs of their spouses.

I would not show her any emails. Just tell her you know all about her affair with the OW. DEMAND that she end contact today or this will lead to divorce.

Tell her don't need her admission to know the truth.

I've been doing DB since November and I've found much of what my coach advised me not to be true or helpful. They in no way ever advised me on how to bust the affair. I wish I had found this site sooner....

To my horror, I know people who have lingered away on the DB board for years while their spouses are in an affair.

They are told it is bad to expose an affair or that they should sit around while their spouse does something called "mid life crisis."

That is one of the most egregious acts of ENABLING I have ever seen.

Isn't Michele Weiner Davis a wayward herself? Didn't she have an affair? This is the only way I can comprehend her affair enabling tactics.

Another poster, SunnyD, had been posting on DB for months and was told to help hide the affair. She came here when her H finally left her, it was that bad.

We helped her expose the affair and IT WAS KILLED IN ONE WEEKEND! After months languishing on the DB board being told to ignore the affair. Her H has moved home since the affair was killed and they are very much involved in recovering their marriage.
If she had followed the DB advice, they would still be separated.

I don't understand how anyone can't see how destructive it is to help hide an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy so it should be obvious that helping to hide them is to ENABLE THEM. Exposing them would damage or kill the affair.

Knowing my W, I know the stability issues that would come from me dropping that bomb. I fear the resentment would be so strong that it would be easier for her to move forward with the divorce than to reconcile with me after the bomb. She is very image conscious, and it would probably break her down completely. W and OW are on antidepressants right now. I just don't know the severity I could inflict.

W's mother and I are the two biggest factors that her and the OW have talked about breaking down. W's family is very involved, but W has been to therapy in the past for breaking away from her mother's control. If this bomb was dropped, it may cause a ton of hostility between the two. W's mother comes from a very affluent neighborhood and group of friends. Mother is also a big fan of mine over the years. I fear that the control issue after the bomb would almost push us both away further. It could also break their family. Maybe that is a plus, as I know W would not want that as well.

Let's cut to the simplest form of analysis here.

1 - WHAT THE AP'S DO IS GOOD FOR THE AFFAIR.
2 - WHAT THE AP'S AVOID IS BAD FOR THE AFFAIR.

So, have the AP's been secretive and dishonest about the little activity they have been pursuing? Yes? So secrecy and dishonsety is good for the affair.

Have the AP's avoided exposing their behavior in front of their family, friends, co-woorkers, clergy, etc? Yes? So exposure is bad for the affair.

I do not have it in me to reduce this to any lower level of complexity.

(The higher the hair, the closer to God? Figures - and me with a buzz-cut!)

What you're asking here is whether or not it's a good idea to 'leak' your exposure so you can turn off the spigot the second you see a reaction from your WW. The answer would be no.

sparks, I don't know you, your WW or her girlfriend. But I do know that I've been on this site now for quite awhile, and I don't recall anyone saving their M when they wussed out on exposure. I DO know a lot of posters who LOST their M after they wussed out.

There is no guarantee that your WW will immediately turn 100% hetero and come running home to you after you expose. But I can pretty much guarantee that you are going to kiss your M goodbye if you continue to sit on your hands and waffle over taking control of this mess.

Your call.

I met with my therapist today to give him a rundown of the emails discovered and the proof of the PA. We discussed the reading of the letter strategy for outing the PA. This is my big dilemma at the moment. Here is the first draft of the basis that I want to communicate. Suggestions? Additions? Deletions?


I know of the affair you have been having with OW. Your admission of this affair is not needed for proof.

This affair has been the most devastating event in my life. You have crushed me more than you could ever comprehend with your betrayal.

I do believe, however, that we can recover from this traumatic mistake. In order for this to work, I demand that contact with OW end today. I will also need you to write me a no contact letter. If this does not happen, a divorce will be in our future.

I am sure you have been extremely scared and confused as this affair has gone on. There are a range of emotions that you have been feeling. For the last year, I have not always been there to accept your emotional needs. Allow me to improve. Allow our marriage to improve. It will take hard work and will not be easy. In the end, I think this journey can actually make our marriage stronger. Let's build these blocks from the ground up more stable than they were before.

I found a card that you had written me just last year. Here are some of your words. "Thank you for always having patience with me - even sometimes when I know it is the most difficult thing to do. You are my rock - you help me be a better person. I learn from you every day about patience and unconditional love. I am the luckiest girl alive to have you as my husband!! I love and appreciate you and everything that you do for me and for us more than you could possibly know!"

Let me continue to be your rock. Let me continue to love you and raise an amazing family together.

Thanks for the reply, maritalbliss. Not trying to wuss out. This is just the first avenue I have found that presents this method. Obviously my marriage is this important to me, so I just want to make sure I do not set off any explosives that could destroy it that were not needed. I understand that Dr. Harley's methods of exposure are the most critical piece. Since I am on this site, I am sure to get all of the replies backing this up.

I do appreciate you being blunt. I understand the message.

Must the exposure be a bomb that I provide after the meeting with my wife, without her knowledge? In my letter to her, can I demand that both of our parents be aware of the affair, so they can give support. Then say something to the effect that they will soon know regardless if you do not agree?

sparks, who are you 'outing' the PA to? Your WW? She already knows she's having an A! What good will outing her A to her do?

Sigh. Okay, I understand your reluctance to jump on this and kill it. That's a fairly normal reaction for newly betrayed spouses. But I see absolutely NO PLAN here.

Alright, you send this, and she reads it. She feels bad that you're hurt. She turns to her girlfriend for comfort from her sadness over your pain.

WHAT DID THIS EXERCISE ACCOMPLISH FOR YOU?

Outing may not be the proper term. I must somehow let my wife know that I have discovered her affair and then provide a plan to end it. Right?

I will not be sending a letter. I would like to read the letter to her in front of a couples therapist in order to facilitate. My wife would tend to shutdown and run from this kind of painful conversation. A therapist would help develop some of the communication needed.

Yes. I could easily just drop the exosure bomb today. Then tell her my way or the highway the next time I see her. What does that accomplish?

You are probably not going to make it because you are more motivated by fear than a desire to save your marriage. Folks that allow fear and emotion to drive their decisions don't save their marriages. The ones who make it have the ability to set aside their emotions long enough to follow a plan. Those who can't do that, don't save their marriages.

I would add that you are the least objective person on this thread and that your best thinking got you into this mess. You are arguing with people who have saved their marriages using these tactics.

If you decide you want we have - SAVED MARRIAGES - give me a shout and perhaps we can help. But there is nothing we can do for you if you refuse to do anything to help yourself.

I wish you the best.

You need a therapist to confront your wife about her affair?? MY GOD! WHY??

You, Sir, have to be about the most timid man I have ever encountered on this forum in 10 years. Why in the world do you need a "therapist" to do something any normal person can do?

You are not going to make it if you don't MAN UP and grow some balls. Sorry to be so harsh, but this is downright ridiculous.

You've made my point for me.

Okay, sparks. You're going to somehow get her to a couples therapist, and then you're going to whip out the letter, outing her in front of this guy. What do you suppose she's going to do then? She's going to run from this painful conversation! And she's going to hate you for setting her up in this confrontation in front of this stranger. She is going to call you a liar and make her exit.

Let me ask you again: what will you accomplish by doing this??

Harsh is right. I may be timid here because of the emotion involved. I am truly in pain right now and only want to make sure that I don't' make a false step that could make matters worse. I would not be on this forum if I did not value the advice it would provide. Please don't take my expressions as arguing with people who know more about this subject then I do.

It is not that I need a therapist to referee our conversation. I just thought it would help provide an environment that would facilitate the proper dialogue to get through this intense conversation.

I would truly value your insight on the letter that I would like to read to her. I am sure that I will be rewriting this message another 20 times, but I want to make sure I get the point across correctly.

Thanks, Melody.

EXPOSURE accomplishes this. Your WS made a decision to have an affair. Did she ask you?
So
1. You tell your WS that you know that she is having an A.
2. You tell her to end it immediately. WS proves this to you by being transparent in all the things she does.
3. WS establishes No Contact for life with OW. First step is writing NC Letter.

If WS doesn't end it. YOU EXPOSE! WS e-mails to OW already tell you that WS is looking for the right time to end it with you. So that marriage ship of yours is sinking. Sometimes you have to take on water to get the hole in the ship out of the water. This allows you to repair the hole. If you do nothing but DOORMAT then you will not fix the leak and your going to the bottom.

GLURB! GLURB! GLURB!

Do I sit her down in our home and tell her outright? Short and to the point? Avoid the letter approach completely? I'm serious. Please give me advice here. The letter is because I often find a loss for the proper words when anxiety takes over.

I understand the tough love approach, and I really could use the guidance.

I think you need to stop choosing to be crippled. You don't need a letter and you don't need a "therapist" to have a tough discussion with your own wife. You are not a cripple, Sir. You can choose to be a man and have a discussion with your wife. Millions of people do this every day without having to run off to a counselor.


I would throw the letter in the trash and stop being a silly man. Go sit the damn woman down and tell her you know about her affair and demand that she stop. Be an adult and have an adult conversation.

Please.

@Sparks14 - Listen to MelodyLane. I've seen her channel Wyatt Earp. You don't want him to make an appearance.

Just be up front, tell her that you know about the affair. Then demand she give it up.

Don't give up how you know. Try hinting that it was OW who gave her up.

Making more sense. Thanks, Clark. The ship was a nice touch.

Should the conversation be that simple, or can I add the other parts of letting her know the hurt that she has caused and the ability to fix this? I feel like she needs to know that a happy life lives on the other side of this A.

If I provide her a pen and piece of paper for the NC letter and she walks out the door to OW, I immediately drop the exposure bomb? Do I wait for her to comeback and say that I had to tell OW in person that it was over? If she begins to walk out the door, do I threaten exposure?

sparks, let me tell you a little secret. Women do not respect men they can run over and our love is very congingent upon the respect we feel. Your wife needs to see you stand up and fight for your marriage. Your approach is so timid and so complacent that it signals that you don't care very damn much.

I don't know what kind of culture has trained you to be so timid, but I assure you that trait will not serve you well in such a tough situation.

I will leave you with these words from Dr Harley:

Thanks, Melody. You are correct. I am generally a sensitive person that provides strength, patience, and understanding. The discovering of this affair has forced me to change my approach it seems.

Does anybody have an idea what a no contact letter should look like?

Would all of these answers be provided to me if I got the book?

Let her know how very hurt you are by her affair. Demand that she end it and agree to never see the OW again. Tell her that you want to have a romantic, passionate marriage and are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness if she does certain things, such as end her affair, affair proof your marriage and enter a program of recovery. Tell her you are not interested in staying in a loveless marriage. Otherwise, this will end in divorce.


If she walks out the door, just say goodbye. Without any warning, drop the exposure bomb after she leaves.

Here you go!





[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

We are on your side, my friend!!

Thanks, Melody. I can do that. I was worried by all of the directness suggested. I can convey those thoughts you suggested without writing them down and with strength.

sparks, the difference between the Marriage Builders program and other programs is that it strives to create romantic love. That is the goal with these concepts and if followed, do actually work. I am not talking about peaceful co-existance, but about romantic, passionate love that can be measured in psychological tests. That is the hope that should be conveyed to your wife. She does not believe she can get the passion in her marriage that she gets in her affair. But she CAN. She needs that HOPE.

THAT is the plan you can offer her. Many of us have achieved this in our own marriages. Here is a good article about this aspect of Marriage Builders: Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy?

sparks, I just wonder whether you are letting the same-sex issue get in the way of seeing this as a real affair.

I don't think that if you had found out that your wife had been spending nights with a man you would have said nothing for this long, and I don't think you would be wondering how to ask her nicely to stop.

You might be thinking that if your wife has discovered that she prefers women, then there is nothing you can do. You might think that you cannot have a marriage anyway if she is gay. But none of is would have marriages if we let our spouses explore their attractions to other people.

When someone is married they do not lose the ability to be attracted to other people. What they must learn to do is not get close to other people. Your wife had an affair because she applied no boundaries to her behaviour. You must demand that she change her behaviour.

Don't be afraid of coming across as un-PC. Your wife is married to you and she is the mother of your son. She has no business exploring her sexuality given that she made a commitment to be faithful to you.

Sparks, I was you on Dec 19th. Dec 20th I told everyone my wife was having an affair. Now I have her back. Can I be any more clear?

Take the advice. IF she walks she was already gone.

I know guys like you because I am one. You would die for that little baby wouldn't you? Well we are asking something less - for him. He needs his parents to be together. Go get that for him.

You're on this forum because you value the advice, but you refuse to follow it. Do you see where that might frustrate a poster who is taking their personal time to try to help you? Do you not think the posters here have been in the pain you're in right now and might be trying to help you get out of it??

sparks, you are attempting to rework a proven method in order to make it more palatable for you, make it easier for you..stop acting out of fear!

What would you do if you weren't afraid?

Sparks I can see you online right now, what can we say to make you feel better?

Never. Threaten. Exposure.
JUST DO IT.

I understand you, bliss. Please do not take my questions as refusing to follow it. I just need to completely understand the steps. I really do appreciate your advice.

My ideas were more that certain methods might be worked towards certain personalities. Something that may work for one person may not work exactly for another. I was simply asking if this method would work under the proven guidelines. I now understand, loud and clear, that it does not.

Thanks for the thoughts, Reynolds. Just have a million things going through my head. About 400 pages of the most explicit sexual recaps with my wife and another person to begin with. Just a mess right now.

My marriage to my wife and love for her means so much that I am only trying to make sure the method for the end of this affair and recovery I chose is the correct one.

I get it I really do. I was there a month ago. You are terrified to make a mistake.

I will tell you sometimes you don't need a scalpel. Sometimes a hammer is what you need.

Exposure won't make her straight. But it will kill the affair portion of whats happening here.

You are correct, Sugarcane. I am letting the same sex issue get in the way of seeing the real affair. The affair itself is crushing enough. To discover that my wife may have fallen in love with another woman and believe that she is a lesbian si obviously concerning.

There is a piece to this puzzle that I missed in the original story that may have started all of these emotional feelings. When my wife was 17 she had an inappropriate relationship with her school counselor. She would often go over to this woman's house. Wife claims that it was more emotional than physical, although there was some physical. The counselor got fired. My wife got years of therapy. My wife never fully divulged this secret to me in our five years, but she did feel comfortable enough to tell the OW due to their emotional bond and the OW past with other women.

Does this make my wife a lesbian in hiding? I don't know.

I understand that the affair and betrayal comes before the same sex part always. If our marriage was strong, there would be no curiosities put into action.

Once I tell my wife that the affair ends now and there will be no contact with the OW from here on out, what if the next words out of her mouth are... i'm a lesbian? How do I respond to that? Tell her that the trauma from her high school age just stirred this up and she should ignore those feelings?

This is something that I could really use guidance on.

Without killing the affair you will never find out if shes straight/gay or anything else. She'll be your exwife.

I would scape $200 together and call Steve Hartley on this one.

I do know you have to kill the affair.

Try reading some of the other ones around who are afraid too. Find one from a few weeks back, I promise you if he exposed hes still here fighting. If he didn't the thread died, and I bet he packed his stuff and got an apartment.

Your decision. I have been here three months already seen it a bunch of times.

I'm one of those that was timid for months thinking I could halfway do this and my wife would just wake up from it. I wasn't in control and, by not standing up for myself, my marriage and my children, was being a doormat.

MelodyLane and maritalbliss are giving great advice and I urge you to put a stop to this.

Think of your child, sparks. How do you want him to see you when he's older? Give him something to respect. Stand up for him! They say that children model their own marriages off those of their parents. I suspect it's true.

Get fed up with this crap! You're one of the good guys! Stand up and say "Enough! I'm done with this and not going down without a fight!"

I suspect your wife will be dumbfounded that you're not going to keep letting her do this to you. As another poster said, she's not going to respect someone that doesn't stand up for himself.

You may have been a marginal husband, but you did nothing to justify your wife cheating on you.

Ask your wife's family for their help in breaking up this affair and getting this OW out of your lives. You'll need a support system for when it hits the fan. Having others in the fight with you will give you strength when you need it the most

I know you're in a bad place, sparks, and guess that you cannot imagine how your life turned out like this. Shoot, we're the same age. You've got to take a stand here for what is right.

Doing what you've been doing hasn't worked too well, has it?

I am ready to sit down and have the talk with her about the A and demand that she end it with a nc letter.

I am still pulled by the lesbian issue. I understand and affair is an affair. The fact that is was with a woman changes nothing when it comes to the betrayer and devastation that it has caused.

If she refuses to write the nc letter and tells me that she is simply a lesbian and leaves. I expose.

What is my response to her if she does in fact tell me that she is a lesbian and always has been and I can't change that?

In my mind, I think there may have been curiosity due to the trauma from her high school situation. She may have found this huge emotional connection with OW that made it easy and comfortable to explore the idea of being a lesbian. I just don't buy that it is completely true.

Her individual therapist from what I have read has given the whole "whatever makes you happy" suggestions. I have no idea what therapist would ever support an affair. This boggles my mind. I do think she is supportive of my wives exploring her lesbian feelings and the idea that she could spend the rest of her life with the OW.

So when the wife tells me "I am sorry. I am a lesbian.", how do I refute that? Do I tell her that this strong emotional affair has simply fed into that. The feelings she is having are not pure. The nature of an affair provides the chemical reactions to intensify the desires?

Does anybody out there have any experience with affairs of the same sex???

I do think you need to just follow the MB plan.
Plan A is to show her you are the best choice as a partner. It is to negotiate the end of her affair. To not love bust.

You can't control what the therapist does. You can't force your WW to see the errors of her life.

You can show her what a heck of a great person YOU are. What a great partner you could be.

Don't let the same sex affair throw you off your game.

Your WW may say she is really a lesbian and that is that. Okay. She can state that.

You keep to your plan though and show your good stuff in plan A.

You prepare to eventually go to plan B...where you are not available for anything and she lives her life as she kind of thinks she wants it to be and you don't engage in support of it. You simply create a future for yourself and your child.

That is probably where the real true issues unfurl for her.

You will have to consider this won't blow over any time soon and decide to have a plan...MB is awesome....and stick to it even when you feel put through the ringer with the situation. It can be your own personal lifeline.

You proceed and then see what happens.

Her individual therapist from what I have read has given the whole "whatever makes you happy" suggestions. I have no idea what therapist would ever support an affair.

Therapists are profit-driven entities as are all other businesses. Giving advice to folks to do "whatever makes you happy" goes a long way to establishing a return customer, wondering, for example, why acting like a skank-ho didn't REALLY make her happy like she thought it would.

How about this analogous statement:

Our local glazier from what I have read has given free BB guns to all the children in town. I have no idea what businessman would ever support an activity that drives more income.

Does that help?

Sparks,

I understand how you feel regarding the lesbian thing. I had a fianc� once that experimented with that. I didn�t feel betrayed in the same way as I would have if it had been a man. I wasn�t sure exactly how to feel at the time when she told me what she did. I didn�t really know how to react. I�m not saying it was right or wrong. I was simply in shock and didn�t know what to make of it.

But I also didn�t have the emotional aspect of it to deal with. My ex fianc� was curious and went to fulfill that curiosity. It was very bad in hindsight, but I didn�t feel threatened by it at the time (we never married, thankfully).

The emotional affair and the fact that she may suddenly decide she�s lesbian is certainly more problematic and a bigger hurdle to clear.

If she suddenly says she�s a lesbian, then I�m afraid there is little there you can actually do to fix the situation. That�s simply something you will never be able to fulfill as a man if she is one.

You may have to consider consulting a lawyer in order to secure your rights as a father.

Your reply: That's nice. Want a potato chip?

Your reply: So am I. Want a potato chip?

She is a wayward. Therefore she will say wayward things.

"I am a lesbian." is the same as saying "I love you, but I'm not in love with you."

She has allowed someone else to meet her ENs outside of her marriage. Sexual Fulfillment is only one need.

This talk of previous same-sex relationship has no bearing on the fact that your WS has broken her vows to you.

KILL THE AFFAIR!

My doctor asked if it would have made a difference if the affair was with a man. For me, I would rather have know it to be a man. If it is a man, I know the failure rate of having an affair and would be confident to end it and rebuild with the emotional support she is seeking. With a woman, there is that unknown that, if a lesbian, I could never give her the emotional or physical support she is seeking.

What gives me confidence is the statistics of great failure for relationships that begin as affairs. Also Dr. Harley's stats that lesbian relationships last half as long as gay relationships that last half as long as hetero relationships.

Although the emails that were written show how much in love she is with this woman, I also have the feeling that wife is being very cautious and maybe not exposing her second thoughts on if she can live her life this way. The OW sent her an email in September that provided a time line when different actions were going to take place. in this time line, w was to leave me in November. my wife replied that although she appreciated the thoughts, she was not comfortable with the timing and thought this was all to fast. to my therapist, it was like the OW has already left her H and come out of the closet to her family. she is half way there. she is putting pressure and manipulating my wife to follow her lead which my w is hesitant to do.

this only gives me hope. hope that she does have second thoughts. hope that even though this experience was full of life and exciting, it is a life she is not willing to live in the public eye nor is she willing to destroy our family and her family for it.

if this is the case, i will do whatever it takes to be the emotional shoulder for her and heal our m.

I completely agree with you, clark, in regards to breaking the vows. When my wife first dropped the bomb a month ago, I wrote her a long very thought out letter to express my love for her and the fact that I was going to fight. I even wrote out the vows that I read to her on our wedding day. I told her that I believed in those vows. I had made her a promise that I intended to honor.

Regardless of the sexual orientation taking place, the vows she agreed to with me have still been broken.

Sparks,

Let's look at the data please. If your W was a died in the wool lesbian, she would not have dated you. She would not have married you. And she would not be reticent about leaving you.

Does have attraction to women as well as men? Apparently so.

You MUST expose this affair. You must confront your W. You must do all you can to end this affair. I am also betting that OW's husband does not know she is a lesbian. Liars lie Sparks. OW is a liar, so is your W.

Shining the light of truth on this affair puts pressure on the lies and makes it very hard for them to keep the lies straight.

Do you know the biggest lie? That those two will be happy with each other. That is the biggest lie. Their relationship started out with lying and cheating, and it doesn't make any difference if it is same sex, or hetrosexual, relationships that start out with lying and cheating end that way.

You are doing your W a favor, by exposing. Even if she is a full blown lesbian, she is the mother of your son, and you would want her in a happy stable relationship, not the one that is going right now with her OW.

Time to step up Sparks. I know this is tough, but all of the advice you have been getting points in one direction...FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY. Don't fight with one hand behind your back.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, JL. I truly appreciate your comments. You are exactly right.

The data shows that relationships that begin as affairs have very little chance to survive. Melody also showed Dr. Harley's data that showed lesbian relationships have half the chance to survive then gay relationships that have half the chance as heterosexual relationships. when you add up that data, it is very hard to ignore. She may think she is in love now, but I know that her and the OW have discussed what would happen if it didn't work between them. In the OW time line, she mentioned separating from me with the idea that it could be saved just in case their living together did not work and they broke up. She actually planned an out for my W just in case.

I really do think my wife, as in love with OW as she is, has a ton of conflict inside. I can only hope that my giving her a chance to get out with a chance for reconciliation will be positive for her. Scares the $hit out of me, though. I just need to man up for the sake of her and my infant son.

Infant son, right. Two words that should be enough to change you from a coward to a lion.

Do you job. Protect your son. Its hard wired into your DNA if you look for it.

Ok. Enough of this "relationship is different b/c she's a lez" talk...let's change this whole dynamic now.

An addiction is an addiction. Some fall in love with a bottle of alcohol don't they?

From now on, let's call the AP here the OP. The Other Person. Who cares what sex she is. All I know is the OP in this case GREW A PAIR and you need to stand up to the OP.

Your ww is probably being emotionally torn up and manipulated too by this OP, who has risked all they had and given up alot (their M) to try to get her, so OP has nothing to lose.

YOU do. Your little son has alot to loose and I would be afraid having him grow up around such an unstable environment if you were to D having him around your ww and the OP.

Protect your son, fight for your M. And gloves off. the OP imho, is NO lady. Fight like a man. The OP apparently will too.

Expose. WWII style. Scorched earth.

Mel hasn't gone Earp on you, but I just did

It looks like you think you can fix this without exposure. Put that idea out of your head. YOU MUST EXPOSE. If you don't expose, the best you can expect is that is affair goes into temporary remission and then she either restarts it or starts up with someone else. Exposure allows her to feel the full effects of the affair so that she will never again go down that path.

Think about if she was playing with the stove. You can tell her she might get burned and she might listen for a while. But if she burns her hand and lives with the scars for the rest of her life, she won't ever think of playing around the stove again. That what exposure does. It leaves permanent changes in her brain so that she will never again consider having an affair.

Exposure is your only chance to save your marriage. Negotiating with her to stop will only give you the possibility that she takes a short break from having an affair.

Melody - I have read that if she were to continue to walk out the door after confronting her and exposure, that I should do the steps above for the Plan A approach.

The financial aspect will be easy. I am the sole bread winner in the family, as she has not returned to work since having our baby. I could very easily move all of my finances to another account that I have in my name. (OW time line email shows tons of considerations they are having to get enough money to live on. This includes money from her ex-husband as well as me once my wife leaves me). I do not think they would be able to make it without me. If OW ex greets the exposure poorly, he may not contribute either, although he seems to be very easy going about the separation with OW.

My main question involves my baby. Since my wife is nursing, she has been the primary care giver for our baby. I help around the house, watch the baby, play with the baby, change diapers, and even babysit on my own while W is away. I will, however, be unable to nurse for obvious reasons. This will be a big point with her. Do I tell her that I will not let this baby be apart of your affair and will take care of him all ways possible (begin using formula)? How do I verbally and physically prevent my wife from taking our 5 month old with her is she leaves. I can see this causing a HUGE escalation. You know how a mother feels about leaving their baby. This is especially true with her first newborn.

Melody - Are you a mother? Any other mothers out there that could help here?

Thanks, Vity. I do believe in exposure now, but now I am confused. I was given the advice that I confront and demand an end to A and have her send NC letter. If this works, continue on plan A. If she walks, exposure goes out.

Am I missing something? If she is apologetic and agrees to end A and send NC letter, do I send exposure immediately anyway?

I am a mom.And....I breastfed all of my kids.

Yes, breast is best but don't let that be the total power point for your WW. She is not the sole parent, making the sole health decisions. She should have considered the child's best interests from the start but alas, has not. That is a given with waywards.They don't get the vulnerable position they put their children in. They don't.

Make an appointment with your pediatrician and discuss the possible need to transition to formula. How to do it properly as a dedicated parent.

Matter of fact, make sure to attend the future doctors appointments to become knowledgable about your child's vaccines, tests, development. It could be a cool part of your plan A too.

At five months, many parents are planning on introducing solids soon. Some do it at six months, some wait til ten months. Be part of the decision making team on this. Learn all you can.

At one year, many parents introduce cow milk and wean away from breast milk and formula. Again, find out more from the doctor.

Fact find since this is a big issue in your life.

Sparks,

If you confront her and the affair ends and includes a NC letter, the only person I would expose to is OW's husband. he needs to know what has been going on. IF he does, then no problem if he doesn't then he becomes an ally in keeping the two of them apart.

Make no mistake your W is addicted to the high of this affair and she will go through a strong withdrawal.

As for the child, you have every right to that child. And the recommendation that you go to the pediatrician with her is a great one.

I will tell you that many children were reared on cows milk or soy milk from the age your child is and have managed (sarcasism here) to reach an old enough age to threaten to bankrupt social security. If anyone really knew about rearing children in the "perfect environment" the child rearing books wouldn't be changing their story every decade as they have. And the changes oscillate back and forth, repeating what was thought good and then changing their minds.

Follow the advice to be very active in your childs medical care.

Hope this helps.

JL

Thanks, Reading. My son is 5 months and wife is currently breastfeeding. We introduced solids about a month ago and feed him these solids once an evening. There were considerations of us going to formula at month 6. (OW time line suggested W breastfeed longer in case they have problems getting by for a bit.)

I have attended every doctor appointment during my W's pregnancy and all of my sons monthly appointments. W has been very open to the care of my S, and I have been hugely excited to be a part. This has never been a problem, and I hope it continues.

My fear is the future night that may happen where she wants to escape to OW's place with the baby. How do I put my foot down and say that our S will not be a part of your affair. I have no legal way to stop that unless we go to D. How would she respond? I would have no way to feed our baby unless I ran to the store immediately and bought formula, but I know that couldn't be good, and there is no way my wife would agree to do that.

I understand how easier it would be if my S was six years old, and I told her to leave our house but S is staying with me. Baby makes things a bit different?

My fear is the future night that may happen where she wants to escape to OW's place with the baby.

Well, in your case, given your belief that WW is as irrational and reckless as that, a fully accomplished exposure would include simultaneously hitting her with a previously prepared court-order prohibiting removing the child from your joint care and control. We don't know in what legal jurisdiction you're in, so you'll need legal advice to put this in place.

NB: There may be some Texans along soon providing alternative methods of handling this, but you didn't say you were equipped with firearms, so it might not apply. For now, stick to using Lawyers.

sparks, I would not let her take your baby from his home. Tell her she can take the baby with a court order and a sheriff with a big gun. She is not the only parent of that child and it is not in his best interest to be dragged out of his home so his mother can conduct an affair. If it is that important for her to breastfeed, then she can stay home and do that. If she wants to leave, then you can feed the baby some Similac. My son was not breastfed and he is now a big strapping 6'4" man.

Secondly, if she agrees to end all contact, I would expose the affair to the OW's husband, your parents and her parents. These are all people who can support your marriage and help hold your wife accountable.

Agree with Neverguessed about getting a court order if she tries to take the child. If she takes the child you should be able to get a court order to get him back the next day.

sparks, I agree with you that formula isn't as good as breastfeeding, but it's not near as bad as living and growing up in a crazy affair situation. My wife wanted to breastfeed our babies and couldn't, and none of them ever died from formula, and today they are brilliant and adorable children if I do say so myself. I even had to make an emergency trip to the store for formula in the middle of the night a few times.

If you need to divorce or make some other legal arrangements to protect your child, there will be time to do that. For now slow down and get your plan together so you can think things through rationally instead of charging in on emotion.

I'm a mother. Times Five.

I breastfed all of my children. I weaned one of them at 10 months because she was having some issues. All of the others were nursed for 12-15 months.

I believe strongly in the importance of breastfeeding. However, I also believe in the importance of protecting babies from crazy situations.

Many, many studies show that some of the most important benefits of breastfeeding happen during the first 3 months of a baby's life. Continuing to breastfeed after that is still highly beneficial and all that, but it's not as important as those crucial first months.

If I were you, I'd march myself down to the store and get supplies to begin bottle-feeding. For now, get a few bottles of ready-made formula to have on hand if you are keeping the baby while your wife goes out shopping or something. If the baby is weaned prior to 12 months, it's cheaper to use instant formula. The instant stuff deteriorates if it's open too long so don't start using that until the baby is weaned.

Something else you can look into is a milk bank. Some women who have an abundance of breast milk pump and freeze to donate the milk to babies who cannot be breastfed.

Fwiw, I took the natural route with my son for 3 months and my ds did great with the formula.

My bil is a surgeon and my sister NEVER breast fed her kids and he said it was fine b/c all of the formulas are 100 percent nutrient filled. My neice and newphew are brilliant and gorgeous. My son is also. They seemed to have no problem in life after their beginnings.

This is not about breastfeeding. It's about saving your ds from a life of sleazy behavior and jumping from relationship to relationship (your ww). It's about keeping your ds in a STABLE relationship with a parent (hopefully both, if she changes her ways)and having a harmonious family life.

Studies have shown that these types of affairs do not last and harley is right. Lesbian affairs don't last that long usually.

Expose. Go nuclear and don't worry if the OP is a woman. She'll fight you (the OP). Giver her hell back and fight for your ww.

Your ww imho is being manipulated and possibly emotionally abused by the OP. Esp since her childhood included such a trauma at the hand of another woman. Don't think for a minute this OP isn't twisting every bit of reality around to suit her selfish needs.

She has risked it all, her own M for goodness' sake, so she has nothing to lose by going as far as she can. YOU fight her every inch of the way and gloves go off. I'd say in this situation it's ok to hit back with exposure, documentation, etc.

And I'd also keep a journal of the odd behaviors of ww, any emotional or mental problems, and also document the times she took your ds around her affair partner as that is something a court of law would not condone. Your ww needs to know you won't end this M without a fight and that she's not in for an easy divorce.

That's what the OP is counting on. USING the "so called lesbian" card in making you give up when she knew that was her one thing she could use. Your ww isn't lesbian or she couldn't have married you, had sf all the time and a baby. I seriously don't see how she could be 100 percent gay. Don't buy it for a minute. But seriously, I'd BET the OP is making her THINK she is gay, even if she isn't. Serious emotional manipulations going on I'd bet.

Another voice in the chorus, sparks: I contracted Group B strep 10 days after I gave birth to my DS. I was in the hospital for 5 days. I had to pump my breast milk and throw it away because of the killer antibiotics in my IV. Grandma stayed with H and they gave DS bottles of Similac for that week.

When I got home, DS asked me "Where the hell have YOU been?!" and picked up breastfeeding again without a hitch.

He's in his first year of college now, is much taller than me, and thinks he knows it all. Your little guy will be fine.

Buy some bottles and Similac.

My W and I got out of town this weekend where both our parents reside. My sister is in town from NYC and they are having a shower. The first night, I dropped my W at her parents place and went to mine. Told my wife I needed some space. That night, I exposed everything to my parents. I trust and believe in them. In anticipation for bringing the affair up to my wife next week, I valued my parents advice. Of course they are heartbroken, but they understand the support and love for my wife as well as the desire to save my marriage.

My plan was to bring the affair to the attention of my wife. Tell her to end now. Write no contact letter. Expose to both parents and maybe even OW's soon to be ex. My parents really believe that the same sex piece of this puzzle cannot be ignored and should be navigated very carefully. The advice from the folks at MB show dr Hurley saying that same sex affairs should be no different than hetero affairs. I am truly lost. My father thinks I should approach wife. Let her know of affair. Give her the chance to end it right now if she ever had doubts with the intention that we work on us towards forgiveness. Expose to just parents. If she wants to walk, tell her a very bad divorce procedure is in our future. Our S will obviously be in the middle of this which scares me and will terrify her. Her master plan assumed they would have full custody forever in a perfect lesbian world.

I'm terrified. I need to suck it up. Should I take the strong tactics from dr Hurley? Should I trust my father and walk carefully around the sexual orientation part? Does anybody have any experience in this situation?

What is your father's professional expertise and experience with this? If he is a credentialed psychologist with a track record of saving marriages, I would certainly heed his advice. Dr Harley only has about 40 years of successful experience saving marriages and has saved numerous marriages that were afflicted with affairs, both hetero and homosexual. He has authored numerous books on marriages and specializes in adultery.

While no one can give you any guarantees, I would place my money on Dr Harley. Dr Harley's credentials

I get being terrified, I was there. Now what would you tell a buddy in your shoes? Sit and watch or fight? Fight how? I don't know isn't an answer. You know.

Sparks, your thread begins on the 20th. It is now the 24th and the only progress I see is that you told your parents. So...in the past 4 days how well has YOUR plan of accepting this sitiuation worked so far?

I say accepting because this is what your actions so far have demonstrated. In your mind and emotionally you may not feel that way, but how far have you gotten on saving your marriage based on your recent inaction?

Don't wait. The longer you wait the more your WW has a chnace of finding out you found out and then will pre-empt any exposure by bending the truth her way.

Get your list together, tell your ww you you know, it needs to stop, and you want to make your marriage better. If she doesn't react positively then expose to everyone.

Read up on and do plan A until you can't do it anymore (normally about 6 months for men). If that doesn't do it, then plan b. Have you been doing your homework on this? You've had 4 days to put your plan together and at this point it should have been already executed. Why are you dragging your feet??

He's looking for excuses and justifications to lose his wife and child to a dirty stinkin' cheater, whose words are a bunch of lies. He really thinks this OW would be best for his child.

When are you going to show by actions that you will go through HE77 to save your marriage; that your WS is the most important person in your life?

You need to burst this bubble asap. Expose.

Yes.

Yes.

No. You walk carefully around this and you let it continue to be a fantasy. It needs to be very, very real.

You are getting tons of good advice from people who have definitely been in this situation before. Are you going to take it?

Sparks lets look at what happens here:

1. You do nothing. The affair burns itself out. I doubt it OW is pushing for a divorce and WW is clearly looking for something.
2. You do nothing. WW leaves for OWs house forever. Likely could happen.
3. You do nothing. WWs affair burns out and she gets another one. Happens all the time around here.
4. You expose. Shes shattered, she leaves. Is this worse than any of three above? Maybe #1 but I don't think that is the way this is going - #1 is unlikely.
5. You expose. Shes shattered, shes furious. It kills affair. She cools off and realizes whats best for child. You learn to meet her needs. You go into recovery.

Pick Sparks. Be prepared to defend your choice not to me, but that little boy in ten years when he realizes what happened and what you did to stop it. You choose now, he pays for the next twenty years.

Pick Sparks.

I do think that you believe that there is a magic thing to do to make this all go away quickly. There isn't.

Either you fight for your wife and marriage or don't.

Either she winds up rebuilding a life with you or goes further into the abyss away from you.

You can only control yourself.

You follow the MB plan and see where you eventually wind up. It won't be today, tomorrow or even a month from now most likely.

You start on the path though and get going to the future.

If you do plan A and avoid Love Busters (angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands) you stand a chance. You at least stand a chance at having the best image of who you are in your wive's mind. Maybe not her surface consciousness which is caught up in her affair but deeper in a cellular level.

You expose. She is pissed cause she sees it as interferring with her plans. You remain calm and don't love bust. You protect your child by getting the pediatricians documented advice on nutritional issues. You don't just say "Okay, I can't argue with you since you are in love with OW." You say "I love you. I want you. Please stop all contact with OW."

You study the Marriage Builder plans. Get the book Surviving An Affair as soon as possible and read and re-read it and implement it.

If your wife ultimately chooses to be with the OW....you gave your marriage its all and will have less regrets. You can then look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself and your child you tried your very best to make the marriage work.
If your wife chooses you, you build a new marriage which meets more of both of your needs and stands a chance at lasting forever.

Go for it.

Sparks,

I understand your reluctance. But, you said your father counseled to There is great advice and some not so great advice in this. I do think you tell your W you know about the affair and that it has to end. I think you do seek both parents support in saving the marrige. HOWEVER...if she does not end the affair, a full blown exposure should take place. Exposure is to end the affair, if she will end it once she knows you know, then that is what you are seeking.

I also think she needs to know you will fight for your marriage and your child. I would not threaten her with exposure (she should not know this is coming), nor with anything else other than you will fight for her, the marriage, and your family.

I don't see your father's advice as contrary to MB, other than the "implication" that exposure should be limited if she does not end the affair. Perhaps that is not what he meant. The written word can be misinterpreted.

Tell your W you know, tell her what you need, tell her to write a NC letter, and see if she will end it. If she does not, then exposure is going to be necessary to shed light on this mess and short circuit it. It will not happen over night.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

I posted to the wrong thread! Sorry!

Sparks you still around? Or did we lose you?

Still around. Was home at both W's parents house and my parents house out of town this weekend. Got to spend Saturday night alone with my parents. I exposed everything to them and discussed my plan. I also exposed to my closest sister.

I spent the next night with W at her place. I spent Monday night with W at my family's home. Made the drive back home yesterday. The general vibe of the trip was as if nothing was wrong. We were friendly toward one another.

She had her therapy appointment yesterday afternoon. I had mine that evening. My therapist backed my decision and agreed with the message that I am going to give her. When I got home from therapy, she was gone.

I told my wife that I needed to talk to her. She asked about what. I told her that I needed to have a discussion about our relationship. (She has removed any communication regarding our relationship for the last five weeks). When I asked if she would come back home on Wednesday evening, she agreed and told me that she will be here when I get back from work.

So tonight I sit her down and tell her that I know of the affair and give her the option to stay and write no contact or leave and expect a bad divorce.

Regardless of her actions, I am going to expose to her parents. This is where it will have the most impact.

I have spent today reading Surviving An Affair, but I have not read any information on exposure.

Does anybody have any documentation of examples or tips for these exposure emails to others (including her family)?

***edit***

Keep it civil, no matter what. Good call on the VAR.

The letter to expose should be direct, loving, show the road back. No disrespect not even to OW.

Keep your cool, this is critical. Expect her to admit nothing, then get mad, then agree which will be a lie. Expose anyway. In fact i would say just expose and let them do the confronting.

Confronting got me nothing, which I understand now is normal.

Good luck, stick to the plan.

I just gotta say Sparks, that there is an element to your story that really really creeps me out.

You said at one time that OW is unable to have children. And then she suddenly hooks up with a woman who is 4 months pregnant.

There just seems to be some kind of pyschosis in that.
Like your wife was just a vulnerable, convenient way to get a baby.

Creepy.

Expose your WW to her parents ASAP. Before your talk. Hand it to her as a done-deal. Call them up and ask for their prayers and support. Simply tell them that you have irrefutable proof of her affair and her intent to leave you for OW.

Sparks, here is Dr Harley's newsletter on exposure. He is rewriting HNHN and Surviving an Affair to include his instructions on exposure. Exposure

Exposing to her family can be done with a phone call or an email, giving them the facts about her affair, [tell them who, what, where and when] tell them you are trying to save your marriage and ask them to use their influence to persuade your WW to end her affair. Ask for their advice.

With her mother and dad, you might want to call them personally.

Reynolds - Thanks for the advice. Gotta stay strong tonight.
Lexy - You have no idea how creepy it is.
Melody - You have been a fantastic voice for me. Thank you.

I will report how things go after tonight.

Sparks14 ~
You can do this!
I've read up on your stitch...
You've learned so much since the 20th!
You know what needs to be done...
You know how to do it...
You know that now is the time to do it...
I'm believing in YOU...
God Bless ~

What's the verdict sparks?

God I hope the WW didn't make up a Domestic Violence charge and get him thrown in jail.

Seen it happen so often in the WW's playbook.

Hopefully he had the VAR in place.

I could see the POSOW coaching the WW on what to say to get the evil husband out of the way for thier master plans

Last night I had my W to the house for a talk. I sat her down on the couch. I provided her two options.

"I do believe, however, that we can recover from this traumatic mistake. In order for this to work, I demand that contact with OW end today. For Life. I will also need you to write her a no contact letter to inform her of this decision. I will need to read it before it is placed in the mail.

If this affair does not end today, there will be a divorce in the near future. Both of us come from households where divorce is never the answer. I still believe that it is not. Divorce is a miserable experience for everybody involved. It breaks my heart further that Hour S will be in the middle of it."

After finishing reading my wife the letter that I wrote her, she said that she could not accept my terms. She told me that she was further along than she ever felt that she could be. I offered her my emotional support. She exclaimed, "I think I'm gay!"

I told her that I would be happy to support her through her therapy, and she told me that she was not in love with me anymore. She told me that she would never take my child away from me, and that is why she has been coming back to the house for a few days at a time. She said that she never wanted to hurt me, and that she has been going to therapy specifically for her sexual orientation and how to tell me and her family.

I explained that I thought the other woman was damaging considering she was a woman who had been fighting for years unable to have children and the affair began when W was just a few months pregnant. My W said she pursured OW and not the other way around.

She is struggling with her sexuality right now. She kept apologizing for hurting me by commiting the affair, but she said was lost and did not know how to tell me that she was interested in women.

I told her that as long as she leaves to go to the OW's house, our 5 month old stays in our home. She broke down the most at this time. She said that she would stay but be miserable. She asked me not to make her stuck. I told her that allowing my son to go to the OW's house was not a choice and she would just have to deal with it.

I allowed her to go to her brother's down the street these last two nights. I know she was there and checked on her.

I exposed to every member of my family. I mentioned to my wife that we were going to call her parents that night to tell them. If she wouldn't I would. She pleaded that I not push her out of the closet to her parents. She said that she had been working with her therapist for this for the last six months and was not ready. I got a text message today from her telling me that her parents now know everything. I don't trust her, as I would expect her parents to contact me if this was true. I am going to talk to my wife again on Friday night and will be calling her family on Saturday morning to confirm the story and let them know that I would appreciate their communication for the sake of our son.

I know many of you will think that I failed by not setting the atomic bomb of exposure. I still believe that if my wife is in fact gay, forcing her out of the closet could be damaging. As pissed off as I am about the affair, I really do think my wife is having some serious sexual orientation questions. She said that they have haunted her since she was a girl, but she has tried to ignore them.

I am going to spend the day with my son tomorrow. I have family coming in town to support me for a little bit. I am not sure what is going to happen with my wife and I in the short term. I know things could get ugly, but I would rather be a good father to my son and have a relationship with my wife that is not ruined.

If I stay positive, and she gets through these questions of her sexuality, maybe she does come back to our family. If not, at least I can be an active and positive influence to my boy.

No worries. VAR was in place. No violence.

She isn't gay and I have no idea why you are buying into it. Yes - it will cause problems exposing her - problems for HER and the AFFAIR that is. Why are you enabling her? You will end up divorced. That is the course you have set right now. You are delusional if you think this will have a different outcome.

My understanding of homosexuality is that the damaging thing is having to stay 'in' the closet.

This is a load of crap, sparks. She has no confusion about her "sexual orientation," she likes to swing both ways. BUT.. guess what? She is married. She had better ignore her "questions" about adultery/homosexuality while she is a married woman. Lots of married people feel urges to commit adultery, it doesn't mean it is right and doesn't mean they are justified in acting on it. Sin is sin.

Dont' let her whitewash this or justify this as "being gay." Your wife is a married woman who is committing adultery. PERIOD. She is trying to spin the story into some kind of PC folklore about "coming out of the closet!" followed by some heart wrenching psychobabble chick flick on A&E. Don't fall for that crap.

Call up her parents and everyone else and expose this damn affair, sparks. There is a major reason she doesn't want this exposed and that is because she knows shining the light of truth on her affair WILL BE RUINOUS TO HER AFFAIR.

THAT IS YOUR JOB.

You have one chance to save your marriage and that is if you kill this affair. That chance comes from exposure. You have a very small window here and if you blow it you may blow your marriage if she gets to these people before you do. If she gets to them first, the story will go like this:

"I am coming out of the closet. I have hidden my homo tendencies all my life and while I love my H, I just could not live with the pain of hiding my true nature, blah, blah, blah, I have spoken to sparks and he says he will support me so we are getting a divorce and he fully supports my decision.."

So when you call they will view it as an embittered husband trying to exact revenge.

Whereas if you call, you would frame it in its proper perspective: "My wife is having an affair with a woman at work. I am trying to save my marriage and am asking that you use your influence........ " If they have any questions about the homosexual angle of this, you can explain what Dr Harley has said about this.

But do you see the difference in the presentation? It will make a huge difference in the amount of support you recieve from family and friends. AND YOU NEED all the support you can get, my friend!!

So please get on the phone today and start calling these people asking for their support. It will be RUINOUS TO HER AFFAIR and you cannot afford to lose that bullet.


I just want to caution you about offering support. NO SUPPORT should be offered if she continues her affair. ONLY support to end her affair and come back to the marriage. If you live in a fault state, I would also be telling her that you plan on filing on grounds of ADULTERY if this goes to legal action.

spars, don't stop now, my friend. If you are going to make it you need to rain HOLY HELL on this affair. Stop protecting her from the consequences of her actions and continue standing up for your marriage and your son!

Sparks it looks as if you have 2 alternatives if you do not expose...
1 = divorce on your WW terms and all that contains

or

2 = you stayed married.. she keeps girlfriend ... you pay emotionally and financially for it all

not too attractive either one.

consider also what has worked so far ...
the advice from family and your own thoughts .... how did they do???
is the affair ending ???
does your ww want the marriage back???

ask the vets who used Dr Harley's system how they went?

No one can give you guarantees ..only the best chance to succeed.

Originally Posted by sparks14

If I stay positive, and she gets through these questions of her sexuality, maybe she does come back to our family. If not, at least I can be an active and positive influence to my boy.

Sparks ~
You are being "Gaslighted"...
"G A S L I G H T E D"...
Manipulative Abusers such as your WW & OW are "masters" at bringing you into their "fog"!!!
If you go there, if you stay there, you will die emotionally, mentally!
Please read this article. If ANY part of it applies to you, my friend, you need to be equipped physically, emotionally & mentally to counter it!
http://www.myspace.com/gaslighting/blog/355858023
God Bless ~

I sense a calm over you Sparks. Maybe for a man, it is easier to think that my wife left me for another woman. You are unable to compete with another woman. It is not the blow to your ego that "your wife left you for another MAN". Men have the competitive nature born to them. You know that you will never be measured by this other woman. This is my two cents worth. It may be very off base, and if so, please accept my apology. PLEASE do not let her off with, I am gay, I want to have a girlfriend, my ex-husband and I remain close friends and co-parent our son. That is BULL! If she is "in love" with another person and is willing to let her family go......ALL HELL WILL BREAK LOOSE!

If she ultimately comes to the decision to leave the marriage and live as a lesbian because she wants to be true to herself....that is her right.
She can not continue an extramarital affair though, shouldn't even though she is trying to work it out with therapy. She could spend a decade or more mulling it over and trying to find her authentic self.
You do not need to keep this secret of hers. Being open and spreading the truth of your family's situation is best, even for your poor wife.
She can decide to explore this life but she doesn't get to decide who knows about her journey.

You do not need to hide her truth.

She will be angry and make comments to you about how she could never be true to you after your exposure, but, you will be in the same place basically. The plus is your son will know you calmly, honestly tried to deal with the situation and he will use that knowledge as he makes his way through life and being a good man who stands for something. A boy's role model is his father. No matter what happens in your marriage, consider the model you set for your son.

Be honest. Be no one's secret keeper. Be true. Be brave even if it means riling a liar up (WW). To heck with her choices that got her in a marriage to you and then veared towards OW. To heck with her running the marriage and family into a ditch. Really. To heck with that. Don't enable that. Don't feed into that.

Be true to yourself and your son.

Maybe things will be okay with you and WW in the future, maybe not.

Stand true to fathering your child and to being a good, understanding but not manipulated man.

Just checking in with you sparks, hope things are looking up for you.

check out divorcebusters...he's there

Never heard of that site--would he get good advice?

The last I checked...he was getting called on the carpet because he invaded his WW's privacy by reading her e-mails.

so....no

Just read part of it, what a mess.

Wish he'd come back over here, but thanks for giving an update...I had wondered what happened to him.

I thought about going over there and getting him, but I doubt it would work.

I suggest letting this post die as the same user name is on a third forum. Said he is not in agreement with the MB process.

ITA. Let it drop. He's trashed Dr. H and has rejected our advice, so there is no point in keeping this bumped up.

Which I am now guilty of.

Just reading through this post.

Sparks you had very good advice even though it is "out of the box".

Just to let you know when my XH (notice the X) I joined DB -- was kind to him, tried to understand him, befriend him.

Sue he was happy because I "ignored" the affair and it kept getting stronger while I was happy with the little crumbs he threw my way.

Affair started 6/08, joined DB and switched over to MB in 1/09. Did finally expose but it was too late to end the A. It thrived and grew all that time. I always have regrets that I did not find this site first.

If your WS gay or not she is in an A and it WRONG. You exposed to your family so they could "support you". It is her family and friends that need to know.

You are caught up on the gay thing. In that case just expose that your WS has been having an A since she was 4 months pregnant and it is destroying your family.

Sparks look at my tagline...D since 09. It has devastated myself and my daughters. No greater pain than this. I wish that I have been more proactive and took a hard line with the A.

Just checked back in to reread some of the advice given. I am not bashing the site or the advice given here.

You have to understand (and I am sure that nearly all of you have been there), that I was and still am in shock and lost.

There are two fundamental differences in MB and DB (the only two I have actively posted on), and that deals with the exposure piece. I know the stance I will get here, and I know the stance I will get there.

I did expose to my family and forced the exposure to hers. This caused a ton of trauma. She may be hiding behind the closet on this one, so in the end, I do understand how it may have effected her personally. As much as the affair destroyed me, being forced out of the closet is also a extremely difficult process to except. I am not sure if anybody on this board has gone through that.

The exposure has also caused me to push my family back on this one. Have you ever had five family members in your ear on a daily basis given you "their" very biased opinions. It is maddening. I got to a point where I asked them to just stop and listen when I needed to vent. As far as her parents, they are outraged and humiliated. They have been on her [censored] since the start.

Since the night I exposed, I have shelved the affair. Her therapist asked her to stop contact (she rejected my no contact letter demand at first). When I asked her why her therapist said no contact, she said that her therapist said so since I demanded it. Wife says that her feelings for the OW have not stopped just because I demanded that they stop contact.

Right now, my wife and I are working through trust issues in couples therapy. Soon, we will work on rebuilding our marriage. It will be a long and patient process. My wife needs to figure out where her sexual identity lies. I am staying firm that I will not allow the affair to continue. She knows the consequences. At the same time, I told her that I will remain patient while we work on the two of us together. I told her that I will fight for our marriage until the end. If it does not work out, and my wife is indeed a lesbian waiting to come out, I will know that our relationship is stronger and co-parenting our son will be filled with less venom.

So in the end, I was surprised to find that posters have been checking other websites to see where I was in my journey and for some to even bash my decisions.

I will keep an eye on this site as I will DB. Maybe I will be back in the end and have many tell me I told you so. Maybe I will check back here every once in awhile to ask for a different side of advice. Right now, I am just a very confused man that is trying to get positive advice to save my marriage if it is even possible.

Thanks to those that have cared and posted. I will still be around.

Sparks,

I was not bashing your decision. I was feeling badly that you are getting into trouble for reading e-mails that contained information vital to your life.

I am also worried about you getting rid of those e-mails. I am coming at this as a FWW.

When my affair was first discovered, I was very intersted in protecting my AP and keeping access to my kids. Even during that time, my kids came first and I would do anything to keep them. ANYTHING....including lie to get the information destroyed that would ruin my chances at custody. You would have been my dream husband as you are behaving now.

Thankfully my BH was not.

My BH still has my e-mails...I know where they are. I will not destroy them nor ask him to. I will keep my kids....by staying with their father.

Good luck

Thanks for the reply Sunny. In the end, the emails could be very damaging. In our very conservative county, the emails alone could and probably would have granted me full custody of my son. Even if we end up splitting, this is not what I want. I even talked to my wife about us going through a mediator to agree to 50/50 in the very worst case scenario. Our couples therapist even said that we could write something out and have it notarized that states that my wife did indeed have an affair and that we have agreed to 50/50 custody. As far as assets, we really don't have any. She told me that she only wants the things that are special to her (her grandmother's furniture etc.) She said that she does not want the house that I bought while we were just dating. Mediation could fix that as well. The only things those emails could have done is cause more pain and fear. I do not want her to come back to my marriage because she fears I will take sole custody or that her parents will disown her. I want to save our marriage based on a rebuilding of trust and honesty. Maybe this is a pipe dream. Maybe I am vulnerable or naive right now, becuase I being wuss due to the love I have for my wife and the compassion I still hold for her even in the wake of the most devastating thing she could have done to me.

For all purposes, the A is over. Wide has agreed with her therapist, me, and our couples therapist. Now is the time for me to work WITH my wife to get us back on the right track.

I won't argue with you about the snooping being destructive and a breech of trust. Although I don't think that way now, I probably would have before my affair so I understand. However, before, (even during)and certainly after my affair, I could never equate snooping anywhere close to the betrayal of the affair. I KNOW her AP is the same sex BUT, the lying, coniving and disrespect that had to be done to carry this out is egrigous.

I also won't argue with your stance of not using the e-mails against her. I just wouldn't destroy them. You know you are trustworthy...the jury is still out on WW. You are assuming she is thinking rationally. By definition of being a WW...she is not.

I truly wish you luck. You have a good heart and I hope your WW truly sees that.

Thanks again, Sunny.

As far as the emails are concerned, it came down to me asking myself, "How can I expect trust if I cannot give it myself?" I knew the damage they could cause and the wedge in the middle of our rebuilding. There was simply no need for me to hold them over her head.

The emails.
Well, if you don't keep them since you don't want W to stay with you due to fear of them existing......heck......she is the one who CREATED them.
She is only in fear of her own making.

You can keep them and never use them.

You can keep them and know that they are a historical truth. Not a scary thing. A real thing. Actual snap shot of a period of time.

If W doesn't see that and is so afraid of them......that you feel compelled to save her from her own self/making.....you don't stand a whole lot of chance creating a relationship where personal responsibility exists. She is personally responsible for the emails. Not you.

You're kidding me, right? You are berating yourself for breeching the trust of someone who is clearly untrustable??

Are you insane? You are being gaslighted if someone is berating you for "not trusting them" when they have been proven untrustable.

Honestly. Put your thinking cap on, man.

Then where does the distrust end? Doesn't somebody have to step up to the plate and say enough is enough?

I guess the answer here would be your wife has to step up to the plate, since she started it.

I guess these are just two very different forms of thinking. Maybe I am being gas lighted. Time will tell.

My husband's affair ended 4 years ago. I still do not fully trust him and for good reason. It has gotten better but I will NEVER return to full-on trust. Never.

Dr. Harley states I never should have fully trusted him in the first place and on top of that he has PROVEN himself to be untrustworthy.

Because he is NOW acting trustworthy it does not bother him AT ALL that I check up on him. In fact, he encourages it.

Is your WW doing this?

Well, in an ideal world, yes, your wife would earn your trust and you'd have no reason to distrust her again.

But you're not there yet, so just follow Ronald Reagan's advice: Trust but verify. Over time, your trust in her will increase provided that you continually see no reason to feel otherwise.

I tried that, too. To just trust my WW that things were ok right after exposure and the end of the affair. But I kept looking, hoping against hope that I wouldn't find anything, and then I found her secret email account that she was still checking. I felt like the biggest fool in the world and was furious with myself for letting my guard down.

Following a blow like that, I'll truly say that it is better (for the time being) to procede with caution so that you can protect yourself. Now I'm two weeks into a second NC and, day by day, I'm not finding anything that tells me that my wife isn't genuinely working on this marriage. But I just cannot let my defenses down all the way, yet. Do I want to be like that? Hell no, I hate it. But I just cannot take any more surprises at this point in my life.

So hang in there, sparks.

Thanks ya'll. When I checked back up to this post, I was very surprised of all the comments wondering and assuming my whereabouts. I understand that we are all her due to a common bond. I am just lost at the moment. Trying to find my way. I will try and check back here soon.