On the advice of many at the ***edit***, I am here to tell my story. I do have a few posts there if you want the long version:

***edit***

So I will make the "I had my suspicions" part brief:

No sex
Coming home late
Going to work on days normally wouldn't
Constantly on laptop at home
Answering her cell phone, hearing a man say "oh ***edit***" then a hang up.

In hindsight, it shouldn't have been a question and I should have listened to my gut. It was too late to stop it anyhow.

We did have a talk about 2 weeks prior to my finding out, which has brought out some ongoing revelations to me, not the least of which is that I have Nice Guy Syndrome and that my wife may no longer love me. Eventually I came to see that regardless of who cast the 1st stone we stopped filing each others' EN and became resentful of the other making it even less likely of the other ever going to get their EN met. Had we ever just talked instead of burying it...but too late.

So we have the talk then, which for me was really about why are we STILL not having sex (it has been less than 10 times in almost 3 years). Then I realized that this was serious bad marriage business and that I was a fool for being blind to it for so long. We both agree to see counseling and both went once seperately prior to D-Day.

She is gone for a long weekend for work between the talk and while I am working some of this out on my own. When she comes back we talk again, but my gut is still eating at me. Probably because D-Day revealed the OM is a coworker who was on the same business trip, but I get ahead of myself. So she has her 1st counseling session last Wednesday but alot of the above gut tingling habits still exist (coming home late, laptop all the time.) Keep in mind I am highly resentful of these things because I am so suspicious. I am also leaving the house a few times to talk to friends as part of my Nice Guy recovery and to talk about my fears for the marriage, and she knows this. The tension is building in the house.

Finally this Sunday as she is taking a shower I get THE CALL from the OMW explaining how the OM & MW have been having an affair for two months, she found out and read emails etc. and generally got the OM to squeal to some extent and agree to end it Tuesday of last week. On Sunday the OMW discovers and phone call to my home from the OM on Thursday, which is why I learned for certain.

I am in shock, she appears to be as well when I ask why I would be getting a call from OMW. We have a talk I can barely recall then she leaves as planned to visit a friend in the hospital. Immediately after I leave and meet a couple buddies who had WW's of their own and have been divorced. That night MWW and I talk some more, I can't tell you about what exactly.

On Monday I leave work early and talk to OMW for an hour or so on the phone. I get all the details. I find the lies of 2 months ongoing, I find the lies of omission she told me the day before that they were together on the business trip. The OM insists no sex and the OMW believes it, btw. I am somewhat inclined to believe it is true myself, but I just don't know. I get pissed and tell her that until she can tell the truth she needed to go be with her parents. We talk on the phone later and decide that being apart isn't for the best for us or our son.

Monday night we have the 1st honest to God conversation we have had in a long time. As in she talks and her tone and body language do not betray her. We agree we must put honesty above all else from this point forward. We agree that we both messed this up by just not communicating and for us to have any chance moving forward we have to be honest. I feel as good as could be expected I guess 1 day removed.

Tuesday my MIL calls me at work and wants to know what is going on. She called sunday while my WW was at the hospital, I let some obvious venom slip when I said she wasn't home. I told my WW that my MIL had called and for her to call her back. Later that evening (D-Day evening) she told me she told her mother. So I email my WW at work and tell her her MIL wants to talk and that they are worried and deserve a right to have some sense of security and that we should all talk. She emails back with what was a desperate attempt to justify not doing that. I call her mom anyway and I found out she had not told her, so I let that fly. I didn't get into all the details, saying that was my WW's story to tell her mother.

So this discovery prompted another vicious email to my WW. She did call me immediately, and sounded sincere that she meant she only told her mom we were having problems, she admittedly wasn't specific. In hindsight I see this was a good move for me to expose her regardless.

We do have another good talk last night, I feel the open and honest lines are open right now. Which gives hope. However, I have also been in frequent contact with OMW. OM has not been at work the last 2 days and MWW's "late meeting" have been "canceled" the last 2 nights. First ever cancellations I can recall, although she insists they are legit. They could be, their main location at work is an hour behind us so it wouldn't be late for those folks in the other time zone.

So in summary, I feel that my wife is actually being honest with me about how she feels about us. Her words 2 days ago were "80/20" we can work it out. She says she is done with OM (but they work in the same building, so). I want to make this work, despite the pain I am in right now. I want to believe even though everything says it is too early for that.

I guess I have rambled enough. I need help, I want to save my marriage. Ask /say anything.

Firstly .. Sorry you are here. I am not much for advice giving but I would suggest you SNOOP big time. During this SNOOPIng time .. print out the emotional needs questionairs and find out exactly what each of your emotional needs are. THen begin a plan to start meeting them. If your WW is serious about making your marriage work .. I would demand that she have no more contact with her AP. This may include quitting her job. If you have solid proof of the A I would also bring this to her boss and to his boss's attention and present them/him/her with the viable info. Exposure is the key here to end the A .. your wife will be in a HUGE fog and may say horrible things as she begins to withdraw from OM.

Some of your SNOOPING should include a keylogger www.desktopshark.com on your home computer. There isa thread and a forum section on snooping. DO NOT tell her ANY of your snooping techniques. ALso make sure that exposure is NUCLEAR! Tell everyone and anyone associated with you tow exactly whats going on and tell them you will provide proof when requested. Your WW may try to cake eat and put her A underground. Exposure will keep the pressure on for what it is.

YOU are not responsible for her affair ... only she is. Dont forget that ... You may be 50% responsible for the condition of your marriage but she CHOSE to have an affair emotional or physical .. they are both affairs.

I am sure the VETS will chime in here and take over ... but ..

Welcome to marriage builders ... your in good hands.

Should I be telling more people for starters? So far her parents, myself, two of my friends the OMW and of course my WW and myself. I can think of a few key people, I almost found it cruel as if I was shaming her to do this. After all this crap, somehow I do still love her. But it seems this would be best?

Also, I have been doing some plan A stuff already though not because I knew it was Plan A. I have been going to the gym, I have lost weight, I shaved my beard off, I am growing my hair out, wearing ball caps again, wearing cologne again. I have some self-worth issues (see Nice Guy stuff) so these things are positive changes for me that she has commented on. Also to note that I have had facial hair and a buzz cut for long I had forgotten what I looked like without them. Well the buzz cut is going to take some time to grow out, but...

Yes ... tell everyone and anyone associated with you and her ... include a facebook exposure. Do not tell your wife your doing it .. or she could spin it in her favor that your just crazy. Just do it!

dbaggins, I'm sorry you find yourself here. Welcome to the club that nobody wants to join! But this is the place that can help you put your marriage back together.

The first thing you absolutely need to do is read up on Marriage Builders concepts, Coping With Infidelity, Top Emotional Needs, and the acronyms used on this site. Do this now.

The veterans (I don't include myself among that august group) can help you, but when they do, you don't want to be scrambling to understand what it is they are telling you to do.

You have a good chance of recovering your marriage. But certain conditions must be met: No contact with the OM forever, initiated by a letter YOU APPROVE, verifiable checking on WW's activities, phone, computer, etc., and dedicated, steady work on rebuilding your marriage the MB way. Start reading now!

Dbaggins, I've been right there too. As much as you want to, you cannot believe a single word from your W if it is related to her ending the A with the OM. Getting caught does not cure the A instantly. It's a drug that your W will want for quite some time, and she will take this underground if she is allowed any opportunities.

I will let the vets speak, as well, regarding specific plans, but you must covertly monitor her to verify she is being honest, and you must insist that she never works around or with the OM ever again.

One absolute truth of A's is that any contact with the OM/OW will continue to trigger feelings, which will cause the A to continue until the fog is so thick that a divorce is likely.

So get ready to fully expose, insist on NC for life (and having your W write a NC letter,) and follow Plan A carrot/stick to Recovery.

Your wife's A is textbook story that is quite typical. Follow the script that will be laid out here and you have a great chance for a recovery. I am living proof of that.

DB:

Yes. You belong here.

Is your WW leaving this company, or is the OM?

Have you spoken to anyone who is in charge over there about this?

Dollar to a Donut, if they were both at training or a business function away from the building overthe weekend, BOTH of them are going to put in for reimbursement for the hotel rooms, even though they were in one room. That abuse of company dollars. Companies frown on that. And they have done it before.

And they WERE in ONE room. Count on it. You don't cross state lines to stay in your own room.

Ask OMW to send you all the emails that she has. So you both have copies.

Some details. Your age, hers, the age of your son, how long married. How long have you known her, Has she shown this tendency before?

LG

Right now neither the OM or my WW are planning to leave the company. Although according to the OMW he did offer to do so, not that that means much.

I have not spoken to anyone at her place of employment.

I am not sure if the OMW has copies of the emails anymore. They were on OM work laptop. If he is smart he did finally delete them from his deleted items folder.

I am 32, WW is 32, son just turned 2. We have been married 7 years, known each other 10 years, and no I have never seen anything that would suggest this to me.

And I really hope that telling people about this is the right thing to do. I was kind of freaking after reading this stuff and just stopped at our friends' house on the way home from work and spilled the beans. I told them why I was telling them, because I read it would help kill the A and no other reason. WW comes home upset, so I dont tell her. I told her that I read I should be telling everyone, including her employers to prevent the A from coming back. She then goes to her scheduled counseling session and mentions what I told her about telling people and the counselor apparently disagreed strongly. Granted, I can't know what was said. Then before I get done putting our son to bed the friend calls and it comes up before I had a chance to tell her. I tried to give the high sign, but it was too late.

I see the reasoning behind it, and I understand she WAS dishonest with me, and has no moral highground to stand on, but I feel I was dishonest here as well and that is not something I want to be. I want to save my marriage, and I don't want my wife to keep secrets from me, and here I am. Secrets are what slowly ate away at our marriage, secrets are not going to repair it.

I really hope this was right, because I didn't even consider this, but these friends are huge talkers. They will tell people. Even if everyone doesn't know the illusion will exist that they do. I still don't feel right about this.

dbaggins, exposure is the one most powerful weapon you have for killing this A. WHEN YOU DO IT THE RIGHT WAY.

Never warn a wayward about exposure or threaten them that you are thinking about exposing the A! You are giving them time to get their story straight and paint you out as a nutjob, jealous husband who thinks all the guys are after his wife, blah blah blah.

Never trickle out exposure to this person today, that person tomorrow, maybe one or two relatives next week...exposure is to be done in one fell swoop, without warning to the adulterers. It should come to them as a complete firestorm of truth that everyone knows about the A.

Can you gt a list together of everyone who can influence your WW to leave OM?

Some examples:
THEIR EMPLOYER: This is huge. This exposure alone could kill the A. Hang on, I'll try to find the work exposure letter that's on this site.
THEIR FAMILIES: I missed it - is OM married? If so, his wife needs to know immediately. She will more than likely be your main ally in killing this A and helping you keep an eye on her WH.
THEIR FRIENDS: You sort of started this. Finish it.

Yes, it sounds counter-intuitive. Yes, it seems disloyal. Understand that you are dealing with an addicted wayward wife right now. She cannot think clearly to end this and will need your help.

Sure, she'll be pissed when she gets wind of the fact that her dirty little secret has just been exposed for the world to scrutinize. Yes, she'll blow her stack. They usually do. She'll tell you all kinds of garbage: "I was going to work on the M, but you can forget that now!" "I was going to end the A but that's out now!" etc. Add water and stir. It's the Wayward Mantra. Ignore it. Tell her that you are going to do whatever it takes to save your M.

As far as the job? She's going to have to quit. They can't work together. But get your exposure lined up first.

dbaggins, welcome to Marriage Builders.

You have some very mixed up views that are going to prevent you from recovering your marriage. I hardly know where to start, but I will start with the above issue of exposure.

First off, you are right, secrets are not good. Which is why you should not keep "exposure" a secret. Think about that. Exposure = secret. It is not supposed to be a secret...or it is not exposure. So there was no reason to "give your friend the high sign" to signal for him to keep exposure secret. That defeats the purpose.

Exposure is your most potent weapon against infidelity. Everyone should know about the affair. Your family, her family, the OM's family, friends, children, the workplace. Everyone. The more people who know, the more people to hold your wife accountable.


That counselor is wasting your time and doesn't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage from an affair. I would dump this person before she destroys your marriage. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, who specializes in infidelity and he describes exposure as such:

here

We have had numerous affairs on this forum killed using this method. There is no more effective way of killing an affair and saving a marriage than exposure.

Secondly, your marriage will not recover as long as they work together. Recovery is impossible until all contact ends. And let me explain why. An affair is an addiction. Every time she sees or contacts him in any way [even looking at his facebook page] her feelings are triggered for him. Her feelings will be front and center, so it will just be a matter of opportunity to resume the affair. And trust me, the opportunity will come if she is triggered every day!!

This is why recovery is impossible. So, if you are interested in saving your marriage, one of them will have to leave the job.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?

I would try and get the emails. Additionally, I would inform her workplace about the affair so they can protect themselves legally. A letter should be sent to the Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both their bosses. People who have affairs in the workplace are loose cannnons so it is very important the company be informed so they can take action. Many companies choose not to employ cheaters:

Developed by Brits Brat, board member and corporate attorney

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS
_________________________

Exposure saved my marriage. My W and the OM hoped to keep the A a secret until they could both file for divorce and get together "properly." When the OMW and I exposed on both ends, it made their twisted fantasy a nightmare. Everyone knew they would be the couple that destroyed two families to be together.

The fallout was so great that we are thankfully in a great recovery. In my case, no exposure = divorce. Only exposure could crush the fantasy.

No, I dont have the book yet. I am going to order it now. This is scary stuff. I thought we were making progress and now I am hearing that is all nothing. I don't feel like I am thinking anymore, that I am letting others think for me and hoping for the best.

And by high sign, I meant I was trying to give my wife the high sign while she was on the phone with the friend because I wanted to be the one that told her that I told our friends.

Maybe I just want to believe too much, but this is from an email from WW this morning:

"Here is what I know. I am extremely confused and sad right now. I have a lot of emotions running through me and I swing like a pendulum back and forth in feelings on where I think I should be, where I want to be and where I actually am. I know that [OM] cannot be a factor in any of this - he is not an �option� and never really was. I could see where it doesn�t seem like it, but he loves his wife and family very much and has never said any different. I think this is about us and between us and if we can figure out how to do something about this. The last few days have not been just words. They are my feelings and needs and fears as I can best explain them right now. I don�t want to betray anyone again"

And I have talked to her face to face and gotten similar responses. And I believe them, because before she was exposed the tone and body language was completely different. I am very worried about messing this up.

Sometimes that's the best thing you can do - stop thinking so much. You're too close to the situation.

That email is fogbabble. She's deflecting the affair and attempting to lull you in a false sense of security so you'll back off and stop interfering with her little fantasy.

Meanwhile she's still carrying on with OM, meeting every need of his that she can in order to pull him away from his wife and family. Then she'll email you and say "Oops! I was wrong, sorry about that. OM and I are soulmates, he's going to leave his family to be with me!"

Don't fall for this, dbaggins.

Thats really nice. But absolutely meaningless. What it will take to recover your marriage is ending all contact with the OM. Until that happens she will be foggy and you will be facing a death of a thousand cuts with an on again, off again affair for years.

Your wife is the equivalent of a falling down drunk right now. And will be until she withdraws from the OM. That will never happen until one of them leaves the job.

As far as exposing the affair, you should not be the one to break it to her preferably. The best scenario is that your friend or family contacts her - without forewarning - and tells her they know about the affair and offers their support for her marriage. The element of surprise is very important.

Think of this way and you will understand what you are dealing with here: your wife is an alcoholic, the OM is her whiskey and the workplace is the BAR. Every day she goes to the bar and sees the OM, she gets drunk. So until she stops drinking, she cannot withdraw and she cannot sober up.

And while she is drunk, everything she says is meaningless. Just like the alcoholic "swears off" alcohol after his last bad drunk, a WW will swear off her affair. But as long as she goes to the bar every day and has a drink, soon enough she will forget the sting of the last drunk and is off on another binge. <---that is your future if she continues to work with the OM. We call it a death of a thousand cuts.

And if you think you are going to be "different," think again. I have been here for 10 years and don't know of a marriage that recovered while the affairees were in contact. But I can point to untold affairs that were resumed because this step was skipped. I can point to several divorces and pregnancies that occurred because the couple ignored this step.

Ok, I am more ready to play hardball today. Last night, I was emotionally distressed and thinking less clearly. I will say I am allowed to have that now and again.

I am not ready to go nuclear and write a letter to their HR just yet. Couldn't getting her fired cause more resentment and drive us further apart? Would asking her to quit her job to show she is committed to us first ruin it?

My thought is to dig into the spy shop, or hire a PI. Find out if it hasn't stopped. Once (if) I find evidence then I will nuke the HR department.

I am sure many of you out there have written said letter. How did this go for you?

No, not exposing at work drives you further apart because it makes recovery of your marriage impossible if she still works with the OM. Divorce is the likely result if she continues to work with him. If she gets fired, it won't be your fault, it will be because of her affair. Any resentment aimed towards you would be the result of FOG, which is swept away once the OM is out of her life. Nor will resentment be relevant if you are divorced over the continued contact. [which is where you are headed now since they work together]

Her employer needs to be informed of the affair so they can take steps to protect themselves legally. She and the OM are placing them at legal risk with their unprofessional behavior.


But you already have evidence of continued contact. Doesn't she still work there? If she goes to work there every day and sees the OM, that is evidence of continued contact that makes recovery of your marriage impossible.

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

A post written by a former WW who continued to work with her OM:

Should I give her a chance to quit her job 1st to show that she wants to fix us? If she says no, will I be giving her too much information into my next move.

I want to play my cards right.

You could try that. Let her know that the only way your marriage can recover is if she leaves that job and ends all contact. Then if she doesn't do that, you can expose there. But, you don't want to give her any forewarning or tell her about your plans to expose.

I have asked her out to lunch today, which is a fair haul for me to come out to where she works, it will certainly run me over my lunch. So I am sure she knows something is up by me even suggesting it. I am going to ask her to quit, if not I will do the letter.

I need to cover the practicals. We get our insurance through her employer, but we can immediately pick up here if she loses hers. I think we have enough money put back to handle the loss of income, which is hopefully temporary. I know her parents will help us as well, and are rooting for us to stay together.

Just in general, short of her work, I think I have the exposure pretty good:

MIL & FIL
Our best friends
Her carpool mate
My friends
OMW
OM's kids and in-laws

My WW doesn't have many friends, so it doesn't take much on that front.

Your list is good, but leaves out one critical target: her employer. You asked if exposure to the employer has been done by others here. Yes, it has, with huge success. In my case, exposure to the employer killed my H's A dead THAT DAY. Others here will tell you similar stories.

You can certainly give your WW the option of quitting the job on her own. It would be nice if you respectfully requested that as a gesture of commitment from her toward healing your M. Don't count on it to happen. Waywards will typically try to keep the status quo on everything - their job, their affair partner, you, the whole shebang. The only thing they'll want to change is your interference in their wayward lifestyle.

I want to caution you: do not tip your hand about exposure to your WW. Many betrayeds get this idea that if they just appeal to their wayward's sense of justice, or of right and wrong, their wayward will 'see the light' and 'do the right thing.' This does not work, either.

If you warn your WW in advance of your plans to expose, she will immediately go into a pre-emptive strike. She will go back to her job and begin to spin you as a looney who is crazed and jealous:

"Do you know what dbaggins said to me at lunch today?? He said he thought I was having an A with OM! Can you believe that! He has ALWAYS been suspicious of any male friend I've ever had! We've even gone to counseling about it and he won't change! It's caused so many problems in our marriage that it's just about destroyed it! He will lie while looking right at you and come up with some of the most outlandish tales you've ever heard about me! I don't think I can take it anymore!"

And boom. You just compromised your best piece of weaponry for ending her A. Their employer now assumes that you're a paranoid nutjob, and she's going to work harder to push the A underground. That's just how they work, dbaggins. Count on that, and DON'T warn her about exposure.

The experience of the posters hear is that exposure will piss off a wayward, sure. But it typically ends the affair. It doesn't push the wayward into the arms of the affair partner. This is where you need to not think so much, because exposure is counter-intuitive to what you think you "should" do.

Sure, you "should" be able to sit down and have a nice, adult conversation with your wife right now, and make her see the damage that her A is causing. But you're missing one important point: This woman is NOT YOUR WIFE RIGHT NOW. She is wayward, and a wayward's moral and intellectual compass has been completely derailed. You cannot reason with them.

I like your plan, dbaggins. I would lay it like this to her:

Tell her that you want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take:

1. no contact for life with the OM, which means she must leave the job

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on your her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

If you are able, dbaggins, when you pick her up I would go in and make sure as many people as possible see you. This will be a shot across to the bow to the OM.

And please read this article, it does a good job of outlining the process of earning forgiveness: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

I think you need to strongly consider the reality, not the possibility, but the reality that she had sex with him.

She'll deny it, but the odds are very high she did so.

Don't believe her when she says she didn't. Waywards lie and almost all of us here were told by our waywards that nothing happened, which wasn't the truth.

You should make sure that your MIL has the full truth. You left it up to her, but waywards sugarcoat what they tell their parents. They'll say, "We're having some problems" and will neglect to say, "We're having some problems because I'm having an affair and I cheated on my husband."

That changes the whole thing.

So talk to your MIL. Let her know you want to save your marriage.

And your WW should leave that job. She will be in contact with OM, even if it's in passing.

I have considered that I would honestly feel better if she said he had sex with him. It seems infinitely more likely to lie about NOT having sex, than having sex. At least that potential lie wouldn't be lingering out there. I also find it highly unlikely they had been having an A for 2 months and had a long weekend out of town in the same hotel and didn't get busy. It reeks.

It�s my observation that men have an easier time forgiving an EA than a physical one. Neither one is good, but EA�s, for men, are easier to handle. So I disagree with you that you�d rather hear they had sex. I don�t believe that�s the case. You�d have a harder time getting over that, as a man.

But if I was a betting man I�d put money on the fact that she likely did have sex with him.

I hate to tell you this but they probably did have sex. The one thing about WW/WH is they'll only admit to what you already know. Affairs survive in darkness, so she'll probably keep you in the dark for as long as she can.

Yes, they did have sex. Waywards wives typically lie about this because they understand how devastating it is to their husband. I would revisit this with her until you get the full truth. EVen if it means taking a polygraph. You are entitled to the full truth. As long as she has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy, there can be no trust restored.

Added a tad of emphasis here.

The first, because it cannot ever be emphasized enough. Ever, ever, f&(((&(&( ever!

The second, because it is required - ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. And let me tell you that you cannot slack. Your LB$ has taken a critical hit, and you need to keep it full!

My former WW swore to me that she was not having an A. She cried and said she couldn't believe I was accusing her of having an A. She looked me square in the eyes when she told me this. Later, phone records showed over 10,000 texts to him in one month.

Oh, and they were having sex every few weeks.


Your WW would sell her mother right now if it would allow her to continue the A.

Well we had the lunch, as I am sure many of you suspected she did not agree to leave her job. She didn't outright refuse, but didn't agree either. This may simply be a delaying tactic, to try and work me off this request. She did try to deflect and I finally got her to admit that she blames the affair on me. I made it clear this was in no way sane. She had as much opportunity as I to have a real conversation over the flaws in our marriage, instead we both avoided and resented, and then she went to the OM. So yeah.

Anyway, so how long until I bomb their HR? I was thinking if she can't decide by tonight I fire it off tomorrow? Also, do you think an anonymous email submission or something would have the same effect? I mean, wouldn't it look bad coming directly from her husband, not that I guess an "anonymous tip" is any better.

Tomorrow morning, bright and early. Do it with a paper letter from you. Hand deliver a copy if you can and follow it up with a certified letter - the kind someone has to sign for.

Why a paper letter? Because a paper letter indicates that someone is serious. Anyone can make a phone call or send an email, and the company can easily sweep it under the rug. But if someone sends a certified letter, there is a legal record that the company was notified. There is a great template elsewhere that I'll try to dig up.

Why from you? Simply, an anonymous tip is also easy to ignore or explain away as someone just trying to make trouble for WW.

Anything anonymous indicates that the sender is afraid to come forward. That will be dismissed and tossed in the trash.

Sign your name, loud and proud. Send it certified mail and make them sign for it, cc'ing the higher-ups so the local honcho can't 'forget' about following up on it.

This whole thing is the worst experience of my life. You know what is even better? My mom cheated on my dad while I stayed home babysitting my handicapped brother and lied to me about where she was. Now my wife cheats on me while I am home watching our son lying to me about where she was.

I know, woe is me. Not the 1st sad story on this board. I want to puke.

dbaggins, I know it looks bleak now, but if you stick with us here and get her out of there, there is hope to turn this around into a great marriage. We are telling you this from a perspective of recovered, romantic, happy marriages. You can have that.

We know this is the worst experience of your life, my friend. You will live through this.

Agree with the others that you take a letter tomorrow and deliver it to the Director of Human Resources and cc a key VP and both of their bosses. It is important to cc these people so that no one is tempted to throw your letter away. And whatever you do, DON'T send it anonymously. That assures it will be tossed. And you also need to put your name on it so that you get full credit for the exposure. You deserve full credit and should take it.

I would also suggest that you bring this up one more time to her tonight. Tell her, that you will not be able to recover if she doesn't leave this job and end all contact with the OM. Tell you INSIST she leave the job. Be very forthright and make sure she understands this will not work. She needs to choose you or the career, but she can't have both.

Give her that last chance before you expose at work.

Do you have the exposure letter?

DB,

My mom cheated on my dad while I stayed home babysitting my handicapped brother and lied to me about where she was...I know, woe is me.

Did you ever confront your Mom about what happened, I ask because not too long ago my W confronted my FIL about his many many affairs, and it seems to have improved their relationship.

Not woe is you, but strong and responsible is you, shame on your Mom and Wife for abusing someone who had their back. It's not your fault for remaining sane in spite of the people in your life.

God Bless
Gamma

Yes, actually quite recently when I was suspecting my WW to be a wayward. I am composing the letter as we speak. Wish me luck.

Well, I have sent out 3 letters at this point, all certified. One to her former boss and a VP, one to HR at her location, and one to HR at their main location in another state. Unfortunately, I do not know any others of significance within the organization and do not want to raise suspicions by asking.

Funny is I finally told my mother last night about the affair and she was at my home when my WW came home. My mother has both had an A, and had another be wayward with her in a non-marital relationship. My mom actually described being in the "fog" without having called it that. She described how to this day she still feels pain for how she treated me and my father. She described being so deep in the fog that she never knew until recently that I actually knew she was having an affair while it was going on.

My WW and I had an argument last night, she blames me for the affair, she blames me for talking to her mother and that she is upset, she blames me because I have exposed and it may cause her to get fired if it gets back to her work. I also spoke to OMW this morning who said OM admitted to having a conversation with my WW yesterday, the very 1st day he has been back in the office since D-Day. My WW did admit to "passing him in the hall" or some other such thing, but she also went to his OM's office to tell him I asked her to quit her job. She is immediately back to confiding in him, looking to him for support.

I was previously unsure if I was really following the right path, it is a high stakes game, but I am sure after recent events that she is firmly in the fog and will never leave it until one or both of them stop working together.

I do not want her to lose her job, but she should have considered this before she broke the rules of her job. I offered the choice of me and our family, but she did not take it, she chose him. For this she gets exposed.

Ok, I have to admit the suspense is killing me. I mailed the certified letters on Friday. Her local office will have received them Saturday if anyone picked up the mail, otherwise it will be sometime today.

I understand it may take some time for her employer to actually open the letters, then likely fact check, etc. How long before I do a follow up? The sooner I can move past this part of the recovery the better. I do feel a sense of resolve, but it does want to falter at times. Fear, self-doubt, etc. are a like a creeping fungus right now.

Good job, dbaggin! You are a real trooper and have done the right thing. When you speak to your wife, I would become a broken record and tell her every day she will have to leave that job in order for this to work. As you can see, they have no intention of ending of their affair.

Thanks Melody, I can use all the reinforcement I can get right now.

Do you think my exposure letters are adequate? How long is a reasonable amount of time to wait before I follow up, send more letters, etc.

Also, my WW & I are both reading SAA. I am fairly certain she has made it far enough along to get to NC for life. If she happens to connect the dots and put up a reasonable defense at work, do I have any recourse? Just Plan A or something else.

Oh no, she doesn't "get" NC at all. You won't be safe until she leaves that job. Trust us on this!! I have never seen a marriage recover where the affairees still worked together, but I can point to countless affairs that resumed because they skipped this step.

Can you imagine how you will feel if she goes to work every day with the OM? Are you telling me that YOU could recover that way?

Oh I know exactly what you mean. I know this isn't to be vengeful, this is to expose. But I am angry and I am going to rip her head out her [censored] whether she wants it or not. I just worry that my measures may not be adequate. The waiting game is killing me right now.

But, dbaggins, there IS no NC in place, so you can't assume that for a minute. She's still in contact with him!

She'll begin to 'get' NC when she goes NC. And that still shouldn't lead you to believe that the A is over.

As long as she has access to her OM at work everyday your efforts will be in vain.

If it were as easy as having the BS 'rip' their wayward's head out of their nether regions we wouldn't need this website.

I was meaning "ripping" in this case by exposure at work. Which I both hope leads to their dismissals. Jobs can be replaced, lives cannot be so easily repaired.

I guess my real concern is this: I have sent the letters, I realize that the workplace may take some time to validate the claims. Or the workplace, despite my CC'ing and sending multiple letters may choose to not act. In the meantime I am left sitting and waiting for the bomb to drop (or not). I want that bomb to drop so it will be over with. How long do you vets feel I should wait to follow up with the employer?

Also, do you feel if I have the OMW write a similar exposure letter that it will help? or we co-sign it? I fear that if I suggest it, however, if she does not go along, gets cold feet, etc. that it may all be revealed to WW and OMH before it takes them by surprise.

I'd give it up to two weeks before you hear anything. They may be consulting with their corporate attorneys and arranging for an outside consultant in sexual harassment to come in to interview the affairees.

Sit back and let this work for a bit before you do anything else.

Hahahahah. I am sure I don't have to tell you how this is going to eat at my stomach lining. I do thank you for your advice though, it soothes my anxiety. Please feel free to do so every 15 minutes or so over the next few months, thanks. =)

Any suggestions for coping with this in the meantime? I continue to get more information from the the OMW. Including that my WW does not give me the whole story on their conversations, such as when I asked her to quit her job and she ran to him to tell him about it. Or that they both workout together on their lunches in the workout room. Granted, they can't be making out or anything in there, but still.

As you all are saying, and I believe, they have no intention of stopping the A, and are likely still actively involved in it. The mere thought of this makes my skin crawl, blood boil, eats me inside. I don't know if I can allow myself to be taken advantage of and made a fool of in this way much longer.

You are in Plan A right? When in Plan A, although it is hard as heck to do, you must understand that the A continues.

You have read the carrot and stick of Plan A thread right? You need to use BOTH the carrot and the stick to ensure that you will NOT be in a Plan Doormat, which is NOT where you would want to be.

Are you taking care of yourself? Do you workout? How about listening to LOUD music and screaming the lyrics? Doing something to physically get the frustration out would be beneficial to your state of mind and your ability to continue your Plan A until it is time to transition to Plan B.

Do you need any help with what to do in Plan A? What ENs did you meet today? What LBs have you been working on correcting?

I was told, while I was in Plan A, that Plan B was harder and recovery is harder still. Are you ready for it?

dbaggins, wait a couple of days and THEN talk to the OMW to see if she will write a letter too. By then, you will WANT them to find out about your exposure.

In the meantime, I would be a broken record with your wife and tell her every day you won't be living in a situation where she sees this loser every day. It is profoundly disrespectful to you and you cannot recover in such an abusive situation.

Confront your wife about this TONIGHT. Show up at work tomorrow during their lunch hour and join the workout. I assure you they ARE making out at work. If there are closets, parking garages, nearby hotels, I assure you the affair is still on. We have had affairs that took place ENTIRELY in the workplace.


Yes, the affair is still in full swing. I am sorry. This is why she can't work there.

I guess I am in Plan A, I need to fully commit and do some of the things I haven't yet, such as identifying LB's and EN's. I have done some work on this, as a natural course. Such as letting my resentment of her prior to the A drive my actions. For one, I had an annoying behavior of using chewing tobacco that I was primarily motivated to NOT quit because she didn't like it, but I haven't for almost 3 weeks now. I need to do more work there.

I do workout, I have resumed some morning workouts at the gym that I gave up years ago and listen to loud music while doing that. It is a stress reliever. I have also pampered myself: new cell phone, ipod, shoes, clothes, etc. Which really does help, I admit.

Now the big news is that her employer confronted her yesterday about my letters. She was understandably unhappy when she got home. It was actually from the grocery store and she did pick me up something that I emailed her about later in the day, don't know if that means anything. She confronted me about it a little bit, and I told her that I didn't do this out of revenge, that I loved her, that I felt this was best for our marriage, and that these consequences are a result of her actions not mine.

She then proceeded to drive off to a local bar for the evening and have dinner there. I called her shortly after she left, just to make sure whatever she was doing that she was going to be safe. I heard some background noise that made me freak a little bit, like maybe it was a walkie talkie so I drove down to the police department to check. I have never been violent in any way, so just to put that out there. Which she wasn't there and I just happened to see the car at the bar on the way home. I later stopped down at the bar just to make sure she wasn't sloshed then left when I was satisfied she was sober. She returned home and we went to bed without speaking. We did say good morning and a few words about our son this morning before she left early.

My problem now is I am a soother, and I want to make her feel better about her current predicament. Yes, I know, she made her own bed,etc. I am just fighting my nature to want to make the woman I, for some reason still love, feel better.

Suggestions on how to play this in the short term? I know not to apologize, let her accept the consequences, etc. I just don't want to {expletive deleted} this up.

You're doing well, dw. Don't stop now.

She needs to feel the heat of exposure for it to work. Don't shield her from it. Keep going with being the best person YOU can be. You'll be looking pretty good while she's dealing with the negative fallout at work. She needs to own her actions.

I did forget to mention she asked me if I had any help in writing the letter. I told her I did it on my own, but I think she was thinking I may have lawyered up and got that manner of help in writing it. I don't want her to think I am speaking to a lawyer, do I? I haven't, I did schedule an appointment right after d-day then canceled it.

Its time to raise the ante and get serious. The fact that you didn't object to her going out to the bar signals that you don't care very much. She needs to hear your objections. That was very disrespectful of her because going to bars is marriage wrecking behavior. She engages in marriage wrecking behavior by going to see her OM at work every day and then comes home and engages in more. So if you appear to be going along with marriage wrecking behavior, it reflects a complacency and lack of caring.

Set her down and explain to her that you will not remain in a loveless marriage where she carries on her affair and goes out to bars without you. You choose to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and that you are not willing to settle for less. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM by leaving that job

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships

4. complete honesty about her affair � passing a polygraph

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

6. no more evenings apart

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Otherwise this is headed to divorce and you need to start thinking of finding of another place to live. See, in her fogged out mind, she doesn't believe you will do anything to stop her so she can't imagine a scenario where she would actually have to give up her boyfriend. She fully believes she is entitled to BOTH of you and intends on maintaining that status quo.

I would paint a very ugly divorce picture to her, telling her if this marriage wrecking behavior doesn't stop, you will be filing on grounds of adultery and going for primary custody of the children and possession of the house. If that happens, the OM and his wife will be subpoenaed into court to give testimony about her affair. In the discovery process, her cell phone records and emails relating to her affair will be subpeonaed.

I know that sounds severe, but this is the only thing is going to get through the fog right now. Thoughtful requests are going to get you absolutely nowhere, as you have already discovered. It is important to keep the heat up.

Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on your her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now he has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

Also, do you have a GPS on her car? I would get one of those today and slip in there if you can. They sell them at Best Buy [Little Buddy GPS - $50] I would also call the OMW today and compare notes to see if they met last night and to see if she would also keep the heat up on her end.

Well I am confident that my WW & OM did not meet last night. My WW was only gone around an hour and it would take almost that long for the OM to get down to her where she was. Also, my WW didn't know I knew where she was when I showed up there and she was alone.

I do not have a GPS, I should be able to do that though. I may have to break down and get 2 because we often swap vehicles as she has a rural drive and uses the 4wd vehicle on bad weather days. Otherwise I will have to swap the tracker and there will wind up with days I am tracking myself.

We also emailed back and forth a couple times today. I did state that the path we started on after d-day was not acceptable, and that items 1-6 need to be included moving forward. At this point I have left out the divorce part, I don't know that I can really represent that at this point. I need to steel myself to that, I need to go see a lawyer soon anyway I think. I need to get myself protected for the worst.

The WW & I had a talk last night. It is funny how much of the fogbabble coming from her mouth is right from this site. She was initially still furious over her recent exposure at work. The lawyers are still reviewing the case, apparently the term "sexual harassment" was very catchy to all reader of the exposure letters. I explained to her that her fence sitting, refusal to accept any responsibility, refusal to make any changes while simply accepting the changes I am making to improve myself are required for her, were no longer acceptable to me. That I am not happy to just sit back while she has her cake and eats it too. That I want us to work together to rebuild our marriage, but that I can not do it alone and certainly not while she sits on the fence.

WW responds that she is confused, that I am only hearing what I want to hear, that she doesn't know what she wants, and that she just needs space, blah, blah, blah. She also said she thought we needed a seperation. To which I responded, that would only serve to drive us so far apart as to never to return, that this was my house, my bed, my son's home and I had no intention of leaving any of it. Apparently I quite called her bluff on that because only 2 hours later she was ok with us living together again.

I have decided that I am going hardcore Plan A now. As I believe the main goal(s) are to show her what she is missing and to put myself in a good position to be healthy and happy moving forward if she doesn't choose to change. I am unsure if I have a preference at this point, really.

Anyone know how to crack a tracphone? I am reading the only way to get records is to request a hardcopy, and I am not seeing a flexispy offered for the type of phone WW has.

One more thing, I may have lost a critical ally with the employer exposure in the OMW. She no likely me no more I think. She can thank me later, though.

dbaggins - I'm not a vet, but it sounds like you did a good job with her last night. Maybe some of the things got through the fog. My WW just capitulated when I told her that I wasn't leaving the house and that DS wouldn't be leaving either. She's planning to leave and not backing down from that stance one iota.

I think doing a hard core plan A is an awesome idea. Regardless of what happens, you have to keep moving forward for yourself. You have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror down the road and accept the decisions you are making now. I don't recall if you have any children, but if you do, you also have to be able to look them in the face some time in the future and answer some tough questions. That was a clincher for me, I can't tell my DS to have courage, honor and integrity if I don't have them myself. That's why exposure had to be done, if for no other reason.

WW and I will both have to live with what we do (and have done) for the rest of our lives. Right now, my conscience is clear, even though I deeply hurt the woman I love more than any other in this world.

Thanks Andy, and I hope you're right that I handled myself well. My own "fog" of sorts is starting to lift and I am settling in to a sort of peaceful determination. I do have my own DS as well, 2 yrs old, so sometimes the "darling" part comes into question, lol. He has been my haven, though, from all this whenever I have needed it and maybe someday when he is much older I can explain to him how much he helped his old man by just being himself.

You done good, dbaggins.

You handled this really well. Every thing she said here can be translated this way: THE AFFAIR IS STILL GOING STRONG.

That is all this was. And she is not confused about that at all. She wants both you and the OM and she is striving on how to maintain that. That is all that "space" means.


Ok, that is fine, but the most impactful thing right now is going to be the STICK. You can't let up the pressure for her to leave that job. This ship is going nowhere until that happens. She is fully committed to her affair and that will not change until they stop working together. If you let up for a second on this point, you will interpret that as complacency and you can't afford to send her that message.


Go check out the Brickhouse security thread on the spy forum. Or call Brickhouse and see if they have anything.


What happened?

Well once I knew the employer was making a move on the exposure letter, I felt it was fair to let OMW in on what I did. I was holding that info in my backpocket so that WW & OM would be blindsided. I only trust OMW so far, she is still a roller coaster.

I told OMW what I did and she has stopped texting me. I did apologize for not letting her in on it, and that they needed additional pressure to cease and desist which is why I did what I did. Maybe she will come back around, maybe not. My WW won't really talk about the details much, but I get the vibe that she doesn't think either of them will get poo-canned over it though it is still possible. I am guessing if they both keep their jobs that OMW will forgive me, and we can go back to comparing notes on the whereabouts of our WS's.

What is her family doing in all of this? You must get them on board with breaking up the affair. Call her parents and ask them to call their daughter and tell her to end the affair. Tell them that their help will ensure that your family remains intact. They have a grandchild here, so that should be part of the equation.

Tell us about the cellphone. I know mobistealth.com has a tracking program that I use, works ok.

Do you have a keylogger on her computer? Try eblaster.com for a good one.

Please get on the phone with her family today and ask them to intervene. The exposure seems to be stalling, and it's time to step it up a notch.

You're doing good, dbaggins, hang in there and don't forget that you're fighting for your child here.

dbaggins - I know what you mean about your own fog starting to lift - you've been sucker punched and starting to regain your balance. That's a great thing!

Like you, my 5 year old, inquisitive DS, has been a source of strength and joy for me. If my WW moves out, I'm sure he'll have some questions for her. She can't look to me for the answers - she'll have to answer to him. I'm not going to play along so that she can ease her conscience. I will answer honestly and hopefully in an age appropriate manner. That's my goal.

I'm trying to get her parents to step in and intervene, but they are hesitant. Her dad is an internalize kind of guy, and her mom is a worrier. I have told her mom that my WW won't come to her, and that if she is going to help she is just going to have to barge in and do it. They will both actually be at the house tonight, so maybe they will make a move.

Her phone is an old school motorola. I need to snoop into it and write down all the particulars on it. I do have desktop shark installed on the home PC, but she hasn't used it since I did on sunday.

If they're at your home, bring it up then...preferably with your child in your arms. You're going to need them pushing this with your wife.

If the phone has a SIM card, one of these may be what you're looking for:

http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/cellphone-spy-simcardreader.html

I actually went to Best Buy's website and the Little Buddy can't be ordered right now. It only gives an option to ship to store and then as you get deeper into the ordering process it doesn't recognize any store as a valid option to ship to.

I was hoping to get away without breaking the bank.

I had thought I had the fortitude for this, but I am seriously starting to question it. Now my WW is insisting she "go out with the girls" Saturday night, and mentioned she was thinking of asking our neighbors about their rental for a few months.

I don't know if I can hold up under this verbal barrage of bullcrap. Maybe the woman I loved is gone and never coming back, because I have no love for this lying. deceiving, remorseless thing. I know, I know, stay steady etc. Plan A takes months and it hasn't even been a week. Sometimes though, it just feels like Wayne Brady's gonna have to choke a *****!!

You need to 'break the bank' and get that GPS unit, dbaggins.

dbaggins - Try to hang in there. You're at the beginning of all this and don't give up yet. There's more BS to come, you'll have a 'character building' lesson as another poster put it to me. I think that's true. Do you really want to throw in the towel already? Why not see if you can join them - line up a sitter? That'll probably go over like a lead ballon, but just ask. Work your plan A - improve yourself.

Does she have the financial means to support herself?

dbaggins, just keep up the pressure. You need to tell your wife that if she doesn't end her affair by leaving the job that it will be a good idea for her to move out. Take her up on that offer. Remind her that this will lead to divorce if it doesn't stop. Tell her if it doesn't stop, you will get a legal separation on grounds of divorce. Let her know you don't trust her out of your sight and will be accompanying her if she goes out with the girls.

Don't let her get away with this abusive behavior, dbaggins. She needs to know there will be consequences for her abuse.

I am very disappointed that her parents don't care enough to speak to her. Can you ask them to perhaps stand up for their daughter and family by speaking to her? Would that be too much trouble? Ask them to use their influence to persude her to end her affair.

If they don't, I would bring it up right in front of them while she is in the room. Say, " Sally is still carrying on with her adultery partner, Joe Blow, at work every day and I wanted to know how you, as her parents, felt about that. The wife and children of her adultery partner are devastated." In other words, TALK OPENLY about her affair in front of everyone and have a discussion. Don't be dysfunctional, but openly acknowledge the elephant in the living room.

See, she still does not believe you will do anything to stop her. You need to disabuse her of that notion!

Well just ordered a GPS, will have it on Tuesday.



I guess I will try and grow a set and try to make this move. I have scheduled an appointment with a lawyer, he is a good one, so it will be almost 2 weeks before that happens. I do want to save my marriage, but I also want to have a contingency plan. Clearly there is more at stake here than just my marriage. If this thing goes down, I don't want to have just the threat of divorce ready I want to have a full blown operation ready to blow.

baggins, are you in a fault state where you can file on grounds? Find out if adultery can be taken into account. And when you contact a lawyer, I would make sure he understands that you want to make this hard, not easy. An attorney's goal is to faciliatate the easiest, softest divorce possible. You don't want that. What you want is to protect yourself legally and insert some much needed reality into the affair.

But, I would nt wait to see an attorney to tell her what I told you above. That can be done today. You can warn her this is going to divorce if she doesn't stop. Give her a chance to stop first and THEN hire an attorney if she doesn't.

As it is now, she doesn't believe you will do anything to stop her. By telling her you won't live like this, you are disabusing her of that notion.

Just checking in, because it has been some time since I last posted. I can say that I have fully instituted as good a net as I can to trap my WW. I have access to everything but the cell phone, which I know she knows I have looted from time to time because she still deletes records. The darn thing is such a dinosaur I really have no recourse with it. I have contemplated drowning the stupid thing to force a new purchase.

Between emails and GPS data I cant place anything for the last couple weeks that doesn't pass the sniff test. Not that this has earned her any trust on my end whatsoever.

We are basically in a holding pattern. She still feels she needs her "space" which means we basically just share the same house. She is still doing her one on one counseling, which I suppose is ok.

Me, I am going to the gym 4 days a week, am down 2 pants sizes since December, started a judo class, got a haircut, shaved my beard, got some new clothes, etc.

I see a lawyer in two days. I still plan to get myself prepared for the worst. I am honestly waffling on what it is I want for me. Part of me wants to follow through on Plan A, and part of me wants to skip it, not pass Go, and go directly to Plan D. I think us is worth saving, I also think my self-respect is worth having and living with this woman seriously compromises that.

I would stay on this until she leaves the job. As long as she sees the OM at work every day, the affair is still on. dbaggins, be a broken record and make sure she understands you are serious. You don't have a marriage otherwise.

I would let her know this will lead to divorce unless all contact ends. You have nothing to lose because the status quo will lead to divorce eventually.

That's wayward-speak. When is she leaving the job?

When is she leaving the job? Maybe when I file for divorce and kick her out of the house. I have exposed to her work, her parents, our friends, etc. I don't know what bite I have left to go with my bark. I have already told her, that even though I feel we can work through this we are currently on a path leading to divorce, not reconciliation per recommendations above (and it is true).

As much as I would love to strong arm her somehow into doing this, I can't control her actions. If you all have a suggestion I am all ears.

Ok, so that may have come off as a bit of a tantrum. That is probably because it was. I am frustrated, as I hope you can all appreciate, and I turned it around on the same people that are just trying to help me out. So, sorry for that.

That said, I really am all ears. I need to develop a stick to go with my carrot. Short of beating her with a literal stick at this point (which is tempting) I am a little lost.

You may not be able to control her actions but you are able to control your boundaries and one of those should be to not allow her to abuse you. And her continued contact with the OM at work is abuse, plain and simple. If she won't end her contact with him, you are facing divorce, but the slooow death of a thousand cuts on your way there.

I very much would be contacting an attorney and making plans to separate if she won't quit that job. Right now, she is so entitled and fogged out that she believes you will tolerate her abuse. As long as she believes that, she will be emboldened..

Keep in mind, that you don't have a marriage as long as she continues to see him. Recovery is impossible. She will not engage emotionally or intimately with you on anything other than a superficial level. You have nothing to lose by filing for divorce since she is already gone.

I would file, letting her know her continued contact is intolerable, and then drag things out for several months. If she leaves the job you can drop the divorce, and if she doesn't then you have lost nothing except a death of a thousand cuts.

Well that is good to hear, because that is the course I am set on.

And paint her future - if she won't end contact - as bleakly as possible. See, she has fantasies of replacing you with the OM, so you need to burst that fantasy with a very dark picture. She will hope for an easy, soft divorce with an easy transistion.

Do it like this and paint it out to her like this:[keep in mind we hope she will leave the job but she is more likely to do that if you make the picture look bleak]

1. File on grounds of adultery, naming the OM [you can do this if you are in a grounds state] This way the OM will be subpoenaed into court - all of their email and text records will have to be turned over. You can have the OMW subpeonaed into court to testify

2. file for primary custody of the children and possession of the home, SINCE HER AFFAIR HAS DEEMED HER UNFIT

3. try to get alimony and child support payments from her

4. Let her know that you will not be her "friend." That may seem trivial, but you would not believe how important this is to a WS. They imagine you will bend over and be "amicable" in response to their cruelty. This lessens their guilt, which you don't want to do!

This is the kind of divorce you want to go after because it is the most likely to wake her up if that is possible. If you serve up the easy, amicable divorce, it will just fuel her fantasy of replacing you.

Most attorneys try to facilitate the easiest, softest divorce possible so you will want to find one who fight for fathers rights and be as mean as hell.

I did just look this up and I can verify that I do live in a fault state and can file on grounds of adultery. I will be sure to point out to my attorney that this is how I want to proceed. Unfortunately right now my only proof will be testimony. The OM, the OMW and some other people my WW has admitted to having an affair to. I have some emails that are more suggestive than concrete evidence.

Maybe the fear of it, though, will be enough to make a dent in her attitude.

Your attorney can subpoena their email and text messages. And you did also tell the workplace, right? They can be asked to testify. Most attorneys, like I said, will try and push for the easiest, softest divorce. You need one who will fight for you.

dbaggins, refresh my memory-- does her workplace know about this?

Oh yes, oh yes. They got the firm talking to from HR, formal investigation involving the company lawyer, from what I can gather but only a slap on the wrist in the grand scheme. Although she did let slip last week that she was concerned that the water cooler talk was starting to target her. I did all I could to not crack a smile at that. Yes, while I do temper my most vengeful thoughts with logic, it is hard to not enjoy the paranoia she must feel when people stop talking when she walks by.

dbaggins, I hope you don't end up divorced, and want to explain the reasoning behind my suggestions. If you don't have a plan, you will soon begin to react to the pressure when the drip, drip, drip of her behavior begins to take its toll on you. That is when people start blowing up and doing stupid things. What your wife is doing to you by going to see the OM every day is very traumatic. Before long, this is going to spiral out of control.

This plan shows her you will not settle for her abuse, that she has to abide by a certain standard in order to stay married to you. And that is how is has to be if you expect to stay married.

If you are somewhat in control of your destiny, though, you have protection against that and an exit plan if this does not stop.

Melody you are right about having a plan. I felt much better walking out of the lawyer's office than I did walking in. I will be steadily getting my ducks in a row and planning my strike. I honestly don't know if I even care at this point if we work it out. It is safe to say my love bank is in the red, and despite my fears of change and for my son's well being, living this way IS unacceptable.

As long as she works with this [censored] you're never going to have piece of mind. My bet would be to end this already.

Raineystreetboys, there's no prize for having the most posts in an hour. Stop it and read the threads of the people you're replying to. Also, read up on the basic tenets of Marriage Builders. Then think before you post.

Clearly I have been absent from these boards for some time. The quick and dirty is I have been Plan A'ing it for a while. However, I had my fill of my WW refusing NC & continuing to work with the OM. I filed for divorce and my WW was served around 2 weeks ago. I made it clear I would accept nothing less than her finding employment elsewhere.

She has shown some minor improvement since being served. She finally broke down and answered all my questions regarding the A, which was a previous no go. She also invited me to go on a potential upcoming business trip, which was also previously a no go. We start MC in a couple weeks, but as long as she refuses to go NC I wonder what good it will do.

I really would prefer not to D, but I have self respect and refuse to live this way. Anyone with some suggestions on how best to proceed from here?

I would proceed with the divorce and even plan on going into Plan B in the near future. Will she move out? I would ask her to move out. The basic issue is that your marriage will never recover this way. And I don't believe the affair is over at all. That is why she refuses to leave the job.

MC will likely be a disaster because most marriage counselors don't have the slightest idea of how to save a marriage from an affair. How will you feel if the MC validates your wife's marriage wrecking decisions, such as her refusal to stop working with the OM? Your typical MC will do that and then it will be that much harder to kill her affair.

If you want to go to marriage counseling, try someone who knows how to save marriages and will help your marriage, Steve Harley. He could probably persuade her to leave her job.

When you filed for divorce, did you file on grounds of adultery? Do you live in a state where can do that?

If your WW continues to work with the OM, then I think the choice is pretty clear.

This I don't think will be a problem. I have had a 1:1 session with this MC and she was in agreement that NC was a requirement. I don't think it will make any difference, though, for my WW to hear it from the MC.


Yes, I did file on grounds of adultery.

Why won't she leave the job? Does she understand she is going to lose her marriage and her home over that job? Or does she believe you will cave on this?

Well she rationalizes by saying how she worked hard for the job, and doesn't want to be unemployed while getting divorced; which is BS. My feeling is that she believe things will either improve and I will cave, or things won't improve and then it doesn't matter. What she doesn't get is that things won't improve as long she keeps that job, despite my attempts to make her see that.

I don't think she believes you are serious about this. I would take steps to disabuse her of that notion. Ask her to move out. Go to her with hat in hand and tell her that her behavior is too painful and you don't want to wait to separate. Ask her to find another place to live. She might not move out now but it will get her looking around so you can go into Plan B in the near future.

Your WW is like a child now and like any child they need a strong hand to guide them. If your child was having a tantrum fit would you surrenderer to that fit and acquiesce? Of course not and in the last example your wife is the ill behaved child. This is what she's really looking for, leadership, guidance, she may not show you immediately that she's looking for this but in the long run it's what will bring her around.