Hello all,
I've been looking around here to get a feel for the place - haven't been here in a long, long time. Not sure if anyone here (still here) would remember me.
Never thought I'd ever be back. Hysterically, just last month I considered signing on to let the ones freshly wounded know that there IS hope.
What a laugh.
This has been going on for at least 6 months.
It's been 5 or 6 years?
I have NO ONE to talk to.
So I'm here.
Just found out yesterday that WH hooked back up with his girlfriend.
I can't begin to relate the whole in my heart. I'm borderline insane right now. One moment I want to curl up into a ball and cry, cry , cry. The next I want to kick and hit a spit. In between, I find myself remarkably removed from it and find it comical and absurd.
I can't go through this again. And I can never trust him again. I told him back then if he so much as ever spoke to her again, it is over.
Our 29th anniversary is Thursday.
How very sad.....
I'm so sorry.....
{{{{{{{{{{{Restarting}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
I am so sorry that you have found yourself back here again.
Do you think that you would be able to do a short Plan A and then quickly into a Plan B? The short Plan A would just be to get your Plan B sorted out.
Have you exposed your WH's affair? Was it exposed before? Did you two follow the MB program?
Welcome back. Take a look around some more, you may find some much needed help.
So sorry you are back here, restarting.
I would follow Dr Harley's advice and a) expose the affair wide and far, b) DEMAND that he end all contact for life or this will lead to divorce, and c) prepare for Plan B. I would make it clear to him that if he doesn't end his affair, he needs to move out. This should be a very, very short Plan A, so that conversation needs to take place now. Harley only recommends 3-4 weeks of Plan A to women when experiencing the FIRST affair. You are on affair #2, so it is even detrimental that you remove yourself as soon as possible.
Is this the same skank as before?
Restarting,
Did your WH ever recover from your affair?
God Bless
Gamma
I told him back then if he so much as ever spoke to her again, it is over.Okay, that was
then. What are you feelings about what you want to do
now?
Obviously your major decision is whether to give him yet another chance to honor your marriage, or to end it now. We here can't make that choice for you. ML has laid out your opening moves if you choose the first. I will guarantee before this evening, someone else will try to guide you the other way.
Before the flurry happens, look into yourself and decide:
- If you think you owe him another chance,
- If you think he'll agree to all the affair-ending initiatives he'll be compelled to perform
- If you think he'll actually succeed in all those actions
- If you can ever view him as a husband again, if the first three are met to your satisfaction
You'll need four "Yes" answers to make this work, friend.
We don't know him or your marital condition. You do. Tell us how we can help you besides just saying we're sorry.
I discovered another affair last year after thinking we were in a pretty solid recovery for almost four years so I can somewhat relate to what you are going through.
Even though the new dday killed any desire on my part to recover the M, I was encouraged to follow the expose/plan a/plan b route just in the small chance that I changed my mind, not to mention that Plan B was the best thing to do for my emotional health...so I would encourage you to do the same.
{{{{{Restarting}}}}}}}
Hello all,
I've been looking around here to get a feel for the place - haven't been here in a long, long time. Not sure if anyone here (still here) would remember me.
Never thought I'd ever be back. Hysterically, just last month I considered signing on to let the ones freshly wounded know that there IS hope.
What a laugh.
This has been going on for at least 6 months.
It's been 5 or 6 years?
I have NO ONE to talk to.
So I'm here.
Just found out yesterday that WH hooked back up with his girlfriend.
I can't begin to relate the whole in my heart. I'm borderline insane right now. One moment I want to curl up into a ball and cry, cry , cry. The next I want to kick and hit a spit. In between, I find myself remarkably removed from it and find it comical and absurd.
I can't go through this again. And I can never trust him again. I told him back then if he so much as ever spoke to her again, it is over.
Our 29th anniversary is Thursday.
It is with sadness that I say "welcome back", Restarting.
I have spent some time reading your history and it seems that your sorry tale is a lot like mine. My H's affair started in March 2003 and I discovered it about 6 weeks later. I thought we had agreed for him to end the affair and for us to work on our marriage, but in 2005 I found out that the affair had simply gone underground and their commitment to each other was very deep and strong. (Indeed today, 26th March, is D Day.) I endured many false recoveries - about 6 - after that, until he changed jobs in 2006 and stopped travelling to her country.
In 2007 I began reading on MB and exposed their continued phone calls (via work, where I could not monitor them - he confessed these) to OWH, and the affair appeared to finally break down amid angry words between them about his unwillingness to leave me and his throwing her under the bus.
However, in 2011, I discovered that OW had been phoning my H (at work) roughly every six months to "see how he was" - and to see whether the door was still open for her. They hadn't seen each other for five years by then. The total time of the affair was 8 years - 3.5 years PA, the rest, the EA via phone calls. So, it seems that my timeframe is similar to yours, and the inability to end the affair is similar also.
My H has retired. Only this gives me the assurance that contact via work can no longer happen. He has no mobile phone or laptop and our PC is monitored. Equally important, we are coaching with Dr Harley via the online MB course, and I am happy with my H's recovery efforts. Of course, I cannot guarantee that contact will never again take place, but we have taken all the steps that Dr Harley outlines in his articles on surviving an affair, with the crucial one being to change the conditions that made the affair possible. My H was able to run a secret second life through his workplace, and now that he no longer goes out to work, that particular avenue is closed.
It is only because my H is now at home all day and because he is working the MB programme with enthusiasm that I feel able to work on recovery after all the false recoveries. I know you will appreciate how the false recoveries broke my heart. I think that, unless you have reason to be similarly confident that the conditions that facilitated the affair
can be and
are ended, you should separate from your H right now.
Only when he demonstrates to you that there
can be no further contact with his whore should you consider reconciling. If he cannot demonstrate that for any reason, you should accept that your marriage is over.
I'm so sorry, Restarting.
As I was reading your history, I saw that in 2004, your H slapped you in the face when you told him to leave the house, after finding that he was still enthusiastically in contact with OW:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1216106#Post1216106You need to take care that this does not happen again. I see that you have a married daughter and a son who must be in his early 20s. Can you arrange for them to be there when you talk to your H?
If your H lays a finger on you, call the police.
There is a lot about your story that you haven't told us.
You appear to have planned to separate (or to have actually separated?) more than once before. You have discovered your H visiting OW in jail, and giving her money. You have discovered letters written after your false recoveries, where he states that she is the love of his life. I cannot fill in the gaps in your story that led you away from separation and towards taking him back. What convinced you to take him back?
Also, what led to your discovery this time? If you were doing anything like spying on his phone or his emails, you must not tell him how you know. You need to keep your spying sources secret - and to institute some new ones. Do you have a keylogger on the PC, and on his laptop? Do you have spyware on his phone? If not, visit the forum
Operation Investigate to learn more about what you should be doing.
Did this single OW ever marry or move in with another man? Has she been single and waiting for him all these years? Does she still live in your vicinity - and has she continued to be in and out of jail?
Tell us more about the circumstances and backdrop.
How much does your WH know about MB, both as a concept and as a site?
Thanks so much for the quick replies. I'd like to start with the last one and work my way back to the 1st:
If you think you owe him another chance,
If you think he'll agree to all the affair-ending initiatives he'll be compelled to perform
If you think he'll actually succeed in all those actions
If you can ever view him as a husband again, if the first three are met to your satisfaction
Believe me when I say I chewed all these things over way back when. One of the most pressing issues I that (as I told him today) if he could justify it 6 months ago, then he has been justifying it for longer than that. On top of which, he tried to blame ME for it, as well. Fortunately for me, PTSD does a good job of pre-arming you even after a 6 year hiatus.
I had the full Library back then, but have since disposed of them (took me about 3 years of 'recovery' before I'd tossed them. I will have to review.
I know the thing to do is get on a Plan A, if only for me. The thing I worry about is EXPOSURE again. It would truly devastate his image in his children's eyes and my own immediate family.
He immediately called me today and told me when she called him and read here texts to me over the phone. Even HE remembers the requirements I'd given him back then. He also swore to let me go through his phones every night to check.
I can't be sure if he's cake-eating, tho, or sincere.
Given 6 months of hiding, however, and the fact that it was the same women, whom he has
supposedly had no contact with for 6 years, I have some pretty serious doubts.
Filling in a few missing facts:
At the risk of alienating more than a few, I was an unfaithful spouse. Multiple times. I justified my philanderings as what a girl's gotta do to get ahead (Yes, I was sorely mistaken on several levels). When I first arrived here in 2004, I didn't confess that and as a result, despite my very real pain at D day and an ongoing E/P A of WH, many, many BH/Ws here felt just as much betrayed by ME. H had suspected, but never
knew - until I confessed all.
He was "in love" and went to extraordinary lengths to see her and talk to her and whatever back then. It was a very tough battle. **His most recent text of "I miss you, too was only on THURSDAY"
We are in Atlanta, and she is in Tampa. There has been one trip to Tampa when he took my son (aged 25) to find a room to rent when he got a job (FINALLY, after 8 mo living unemployed with us) in Tampa. I think I remember him being out of touch and unreachable by my son for about a hour to hour 1/2 one evening. That may have been a meet up.
Come to think of it, he's been scheming for an excuse to make a trip down there for some time. (Damn. That slipped my mind.)
In his efforts at confession, he claims she found him. On Facebook. But he has no contact info on FB. He says she called his workplace (huge corporation) and got his work cell. That is the only phone with evidence of contact. (Calls, texts, pics.) There are at least FIVE different huge outfits under that name in just Atlanta. More outside Atlanta. I can't imagine her being that persistent and diligent in her search.
I am unemployed and a late returnee to college. Now what? Well, I
can go back to work (can always find sales jobs) to support myself, so that is do-able. It'll be rough, tho.
Lastly, no, I am not at all sure I will ever be able to trust him again.
I was relieved after 4 years when the "Tmobile Jingle" (The phone I had back during my fight to end his A) finally didn't set my heart thumping in panic.
I'm not back to square 1, emotionally, but pretty darn close.
I do have to make a decision about exposure. I've considered asking him to do it himself.
I don't know about anyone else, but I had already seen in your past posts that you were a WS, as well. As awful as that was, it in no way justifies him subjecting you to the abuse of infidelity, too, and more than once besides.
As to exposure, his image is already ruined, his kids just don't know it yet. You aren't doing him any favors by joining his secrecy, whether you choose to R or not.
It sounds like NC would be very tough to verify, if it even occurred, since you already lived far apart and he likely had to search diligently for her. I think a quick prep for Plan B and a good while dark would be beneficial for you, even if he says right away that he will meet all your conditions. This A is very entrenched, and you don't want to risk your heart again without knowing that it's truly dead.
I do have to make a decision about exposure. I've considered asking him to do it himself.
You will find the advice given on this board unrecognisable from when you were here years ago.
You will be told by absolutely everybody here that you must expose this affair. You must do this right away, to you children and to your wider families, and you must do this yourself. There is simply no point posting on MB if you are not going to take Dr Harley's advice.
There is no reason why you should not expose to your grown children. Indeed, there is every reason why they should know the truth about what their father is doing, daily, to threaten their family life. Why would you consider for a moment lying to them to protect his image in their eyes? Is his image worthy of protection? You would not have anything to expose if he had not been unfaithful to you. It is the adultery that rightfully destroys his image, not its exposure.
I wonder, though, whether you have put up with his ill-treatment because of your own rampant (at one time) infidelity. Do your children know about this? Is your unwillingness to expose your H due to the fact that you know your own past would have to come out?
Can you tell us about your own adulteries - or provide a link to a thread where you revealed this, please?
Thanks so much for the quick replies. I'd like to start with the last one and work my way back to the 1st:
If you think you owe him another chance,
If you think he'll agree to all the affair-ending initiatives he'll be compelled to perform
If you think he'll actually succeed in all those actions
If you can ever view him as a husband again, if the first three are met to your satisfaction
Believe me when I say I chewed all these things over way back when. One of the most pressing issues I that (as I told him today) if he could justify it 6 months ago, then he has been justifying it for longer than that. On top of which, he tried to blame ME for it, as well. Fortunately for me, PTSD does a good job of pre-arming you even after a 6 year hiatus.
I had the full Library back then, but have since disposed of them (took me about 3 years of 'recovery' before I'd tossed them. I will have to review.
I know the thing to do is get on a Plan A, if only for me. The thing I worry about is EXPOSURE again. It would truly devastate his image in his children's eyes and my own immediate family.
He immediately called me today and told me when she called him and read here texts to me over the phone. Even HE remembers the requirements I'd given him back then. He also swore to let me go through his phones every night to check.
I can't be sure if he's cake-eating, tho, or sincere.
Given 6 months of hiding, however, and the fact that it was the same women, whom he has
supposedly had no contact with for 6 years, I have some pretty serious doubts.
Filling in a few missing facts:
At the risk of alienating more than a few, I was an unfaithful spouse. Multiple times. I justified my philanderings as what a girl's gotta do to get ahead (Yes, I was sorely mistaken on several levels). When I first arrived here in 2004, I didn't confess that and as a result, despite my very real pain at D day and an ongoing E/P A of WH, many, many BH/Ws here felt just as much betrayed by ME. H had suspected, but never
knew - until I confessed all.
He was "in love" and went to extraordinary lengths to see her and talk to her and whatever back then. It was a very tough battle. **His most recent text of "I miss you, too was only on THURSDAY"
We are in Atlanta, and she is in Tampa. There has been one trip to Tampa when he took my son (aged 25) to find a room to rent when he got a job (FINALLY, after 8 mo living unemployed with us) in Tampa. I think I remember him being out of touch and unreachable by my son for about a hour to hour 1/2 one evening. That may have been a meet up.
Come to think of it, he's been scheming for an excuse to make a trip down there for some time. (Damn. That slipped my mind.)
In his efforts at confession, he claims she found him. On Facebook. But he has no contact info on FB. He says she called his workplace (huge corporation) and got his work cell. That is the only phone with evidence of contact. (Calls, texts, pics.) There are at least FIVE different huge outfits under that name in just Atlanta. More outside Atlanta. I can't imagine her being that persistent and diligent in her search.
I am unemployed and a late returnee to college. Now what? Well, I
can go back to work (can always find sales jobs) to support myself, so that is do-able. It'll be rough, tho.
Lastly, no, I am not at all sure I will ever be able to trust him again.
I was relieved after 4 years when the "Tmobile Jingle" (The phone I had back during my fight to end his A) finally didn't set my heart thumping in panic.
I'm not back to square 1, emotionally, but pretty darn close.
I do have to make a decision about exposure. I've considered asking him to do it himself.
When did you confess your affairs to your H?
When did they take place, and how many were there?
Sugar,
I personally did all the hitting last night. I struck his arm bc it was too close to the pillow I was thrashing at in rage.
He did, however, break down our apartment door when he stomped out and I locked it behind him. He is mortified over that. Maintenance is repairing it right now.
With today's technology, I am not sure that reviewing his phone after work would even matter. He can just delete.
I discovered this in a weird way. He had been cleaning and organizing like a madman for about an hour in our little apartment while I studied (usually I am the one who does that.) Then, I get a call from him that he had decided to go get his work van cleaned. That was weird.
Both unusual things. Out of character.
Then he struck out on a bike ride (biking enthusuiest). That's usually one hour.
Two weeks previous, I'd woken to find him porn surfing in the middle of the night. This was his "gateway" drug before.... So I decided to investigate.
Local "escorts" were accessed and viewed just prior to him leaving the house.
I was SHAKING in PTSD. Decided to quit studying, go out and get a relaxing bottle of wine, to mull on it. AFTER I kept checking our bank account and CCards to see if there were any cash withdrawals.
Also, AFTER I'd checked his personal cell and home phone for those escort numbers.
As I approach my car, for some reason it occurred to me to check his van - to see if he'd actually cleaned it. Usually he locks it. I looked inside to see if it was clean inside. Then I saw the work phone.
I took it with me to my car, just in case he should return early. I was looking for the escort numbers.
My heart fell through the floor.
Sugar,
I personally did all the hitting last night. I struck his arm bc it was too close to the pillow I was thrashing at in rage.
He did, however, break down our apartment door when he stomped out and I locked it behind him. He is mortified over that. Maintenance is repairing it right now.
With today's technology, I am not sure that reviewing his phone after work would even matter. He can just delete.
I discovered this in a weird way. He had been cleaning and organizing like a madman for about an hour in our little apartment while I studied (usually I am the one who does that.) Then, I get a call from him that he had decided to go get his work van cleaned. That was weird.
Both unusual things. Out of character.
Then he struck out on a bike ride (biking enthusuiest). That's usually one hour.
Two weeks previous, I'd woken to find him porn surfing in the middle of the night. This was his "gateway" drug before.... So I decided to investigate.
Local "escorts" were accessed and viewed just prior to him leaving the house.
I was SHAKING in PTSD. Decided to quit studying, go out and get a relaxing bottle of wine, to mull on it. AFTER I kept checking our bank account and CCards to see if there were any cash withdrawals.
Also, AFTER I'd checked his personal cell and home phone for those escort numbers.
As I approach my car, for some reason it occurred to me to check his van - to see if he'd actually cleaned it. Usually he locks it. I looked inside to see if it was clean inside. Then I saw the work phone.
I took it with me to my car, just in case he should return early. I was looking for the escort numbers.
My heart fell through the floor.
But you haven't told me what you found. Please be a bit clearer!
The physical abuse by either of you must not happen again. He is just as much within his rights to call the police on YOU if you ever touch him again, and you will most certainly find yourself on a domestic abuse charge, and possibly end up with a criminal record.
We have asked you a lot of questions. Could you try to answer them all quickly?
I confessed them sporadically and what was "safe" for me. I did not come totally clean until March of 2006, when my own OM keyed my car and threatened to get me fired when I refused to "take him back" after being out of the A for a year and 1/2.
I'd finally bitten the bullet, and decided within myself, that I could not live with myself if I did not confess everything. I left the decision to stay together in his hands. I accepted, in advance, that all my efforts to split up his A might have been worth nothing without the confession.
It was the hardest thing I ever did.
I'd say 10 OM.
Yeah. Dirtbag,POS.
I am still ashamed.
OH.
I found texts between them and records of calls.
The texts were, "why dont u call??" "R U ignoring me" a pic of bare breasts being held up to the phone porn style.
He had texted, "I sent 20 dollars" "I miss you too" and "I'll be leaving Columbas soon, I'll call then" "I'm at my favorite place (a HS he can't stand"
All far, far too chummy and familiar in current events for sporadic "I didn't want her to call" calls.
The thing about sending money really was terrible. She cost us a lot back in '04 and '05.
T
I know the thing to do is get on a Plan A, if only for me. The thing I worry about is EXPOSURE again. It would truly devastate his image in his children's eyes and my own immediate family.
Restarting, you should not ask your H to expose himself. Exposure should be done with no forewarning at all. Telling him up front will only lead to a completely unncessary fight and defeat the purpose. Part of the reason your husband has remained in a semi fog all these years is because the affair was kept secret. Affairs thrive on secrecy and keeping it a secret keeps the fantasy alive. Keeping it secret hurts your husband, you, everyone. There is absolutely no valid reason to ever hide an affair. In fact, Dr Harley calls that "enabling" when a BS fails to expose and says "its very hard to save a marriage when you are an enabler.
So, don't hurt your husband by hiding this affair. Expose it to your kids, your family, close friends, everyone. Everyone should know what he is doing. Go read the link in my signature about how and why you should expose. Dr Harley beats this drum every day on his radio show: expose, expose, expose!
And most importantly, Plan A is not supposed to last more than 3 to 4 weeks so you need to work on wrapping this up and figure out how you can get him to move out so you can go into Plan B. 3 to 4 weeks in Plan A is way too long for a second affair. You already demonstrated to your H that you would be willing to meet his needs so you are way past that point.
Then. Not now - unless you have maintained contact with any of them.
He did, however, break down our apartment door when he stomped out and I locked it behind him. He is mortified over that. Maintenance is repairing it right now.
Please call the police.
I know the thing to do is get on a Plan A, if only for me. The thing I worry about is EXPOSURE again. It would truly devastate his image in his children's eyes and my own immediate family.
You mean it would "devastate" his FAKE image. That would be a good thing, not a bad thing. It doesn't help him or your kids to whitewash your husbands crimes.
He did, however, break down our apartment door when he stomped out and I locked it behind him. He is mortified over that. Maintenance is repairing it right now.
Please call the police.
You guys are alcoholics, aren't you? This is all too crazy for normal people. It sounds like the insane asylum.
Are you alcoholics?
OH.
I found texts between them and records of calls.
The texts were, "why dont u call??" "R U ignoring me" a pic of bare breasts being held up to the phone porn style.
He had texted, "I sent 20 dollars" "I miss you too" and "I'll be leaving Columbas soon, I'll call then" "I'm at my favorite place (a HS he can't stand"
All far, far too chummy and familiar in current events for sporadic "I didn't want her to call" calls.
The thing about sending money really was terrible. She cost us a lot back in '04 and '05.
What do you think really has been been going on? Have they been continuing contact (thus the affair) all this time, or has contact recently been re-established?
What did your H tell you about contact when you confronted him? Did he admit that they have been having a sexual affair?
BTW, the point about spyware for his phone or PC is that it wouldn't matter what he deleted. You would get a report showing every keystroke he typed. You can see from your own experience how important it is to monitor his phone.
I confessed them sporadically and what was "safe" for me. I did not come totally clean until March of 2006, when my own OM keyed my car and threatened to get me fired when I refused to "take him back" after being out of the A for a year and 1/2.
I'd finally bitten the bullet, and decided within myself, that I could not live with myself if I did not confess everything. I left the decision to stay together in his hands. I accepted, in advance, that all my efforts to split up his A might have been worth nothing without the confession.
It was the hardest thing I ever did.
I'd say 10 OM.
Yeah. Dirtbag,POS.
I am still ashamed.
Did I see this correct? That you had 10(TEN) OM?
Restarting,
Did your WH ever get counseling for the psychological damage from your 10 OM? Does he even have anyone he can confide in or has he posted to MB.
I agree with your exposing your WH, but to be fair, in your H's eyes too, you need to exposure your OM to their wives was that ever done? Have you apologized to the OMWs?
God Bless
Gamma
ah. Oh, wow. I knew I'd need to be honest, but had no idea how much this was gonna hurt.
No, I never apologized to any OM wives. Except for in my heart and in prayers. Each of these guys were also serial cheaters. I probably would have helped a few women, but in that environment, they pretty much all knew their husbands were doing this and better than half did themselves. Hell, that's how half of them landed their Hs in the first place. The retail car industry is pretty sordid.
You did not read wrong. But after posting, I didn't an self-honesty recount, It was 9. Over the span of 14 years.
Essentially, as I confessed to you here, I was basically prostituting myself for advancement at work. It was a rationale that was pretty stupid.
We've spoken again since he got home. He is mortified at every level. Crying and begging forgiveness and expressing remorse.
But it becomes more and more clear that he had re-engaged his "rescuer" title, and was enjoying the ego massage.
You guys are alcoholics, aren't you? This is all too crazy for normal people. It sounds like the insane asylum.
Are you alcoholics?
Wow. ML, I think you've been here for a long time, right?
I think I remember you being pretty direct.
We drink. Last night I did indeed drink a lot. It was not a quiet discussion, no. Yes, I repress a lot of emotions, almost all, in fact. And, yes, if I drink, I have no governor. There were a lot of "f" bombs, a lot of sobbing, a lot of wailing and a lot of wild waving of hands. There was also calm dialogue, quiet cursing, silent tears and wretched hand wringing. It went on for about 4 hours.
Also, "breaking the door down" turns out to be a hyberbole. It wasn't DOWN, but he did crack the jamb.
I do not fear for my life or my well being, other than a shattered heart.
Did you both conduct a proper exposure/set EP's/plan A etc. from the start of your last recovery? For both you and him? Which is 2006, right?
What do you think really has been been going on? Have they been continuing contact (thus the affair) all this time, or has contact recently been re-established?
What did your H tell you about contact when you confronted him? Did he admit that they have been having a sexual affair?
Initially, he denied it. This alone ramped up the adreneline re: PTSD.
I had the proof in my own hands, read it and recited it to him. Finally, he allowed that it was recent, then he tried to say he never wanted her to call him and had been ignoring her texts. Then I recited his own texts.
Today he has admitted more. It has been ongoing calls and texts since Sep. No physical contact, as there are over 500 miles between. The sexual tension she generates is what he was after, too.
I think it might go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, my own shame and guilt are what kept me in.
Although I haven't been unfaithful since 2004 (when his A shattered my previously ego-centered world), I have not strayed. Not to mention that I found that "f"ing your way up the career ladder just doesn't work in the long run. and it certainly does not provide any protection.
You need to do everything for the OM and their BW's that WH should have done long ago. It doesn't matter if they're easy women themselves, it's the right thing for *you* to do as you continue your quest to become a new person.
I'm very impressed that ML can smell the alcohol ONLINE! That is a huge issue that clearly needs to be addressed for both of you. You can't make WH do it, but you can get started with yourself.
Restarting,
I'm not sure when you got married, but if you started cheating in 1990, your WH has to feel that almost his entire married life was a lie. Did your WH ever get to confront these OM?
Telling the OMW has nothing to do with the character of the OMWs, it's more about reestablishing your integrity.
Did you ever report these OM to management or the car company they were selling for, Toyota, Ford etc.
And again did you ever try to get counseling for your WH?
God Bless
Gamma
You guys are alcoholics, aren't you? This is all too crazy for normal people. It sounds like the insane asylum.
Are you alcoholics?
Wow. ML, I think you've been here for a long time, right?
I think I remember you being pretty direct.
We drink. Last night I did indeed drink a lot. It was not a quiet discussion, no. Yes, I repress a lot of emotions, almost all, in fact. And, yes, if I drink, I have no governor. There were a lot of "f" bombs, a lot of sobbing, a lot of wailing and a lot of wild waving of hands. There was also calm dialogue, quiet cursing, silent tears and wretched hand wringing. It went on for about 4 hours.
Also, "breaking the door down" turns out to be a hyberbole. It wasn't DOWN, but he did crack the jamb.
I do not fear for my life or my well being, other than a shattered heart.
Yeah, you guys are both serial cheaters, hard drinkers and brawlers. Brawling and serial cheating is a way of life for you both. NINE affairs in 14 years? You must be kidding? This is your LIFE. You and your husband have a LIFESTYLE problem that is much worse than just another affair. [one of many] This is your way of life.
This is bigger that this forum is equipped to handle. Marriage Builders does not work when there is alcoholism present. You need to address your drinking problem first and get your life in order.
ok. We are drinkers, but not alcoholics. Sounds to me like you don't mind lobbing a couple LBs yourself. It WAS a traumatic day, after all. Would you have me leave out these vital truths to have them come out so much later? Shame on you. You've seen this time and again. I just wanted to get it all on the table at once.
Yeah. so I'm a POS circa 8 years ago, reformed.
Yeah. So I doused my sadness and anger in alcohol.
I really did not expect self-righteous horse pucky (or so much of it!). I expected some release, some pats on the back that I may actually be ok, and some advice to help me sort through this mess and make some decisions.
No prob. So be it.
I've been shown the door.
So much for honesty.
ok. We are drinkers, but not alcoholics. Sounds to me like you don't mind lobbing a couple LBs yourself. It WAS a traumatic day, after all.
No prob. So be it.
I've been shown the door.
So much for honesty.
You have NOT been shown the door, Restarting. You have been shown where to start addressing your problems. The issue of your drinking was identified by someone who was herself an alcoholic and who STOPPED DRINKING. That's what you and your H need to do.
You are trying to say that it is not a problem: "we are drinkers but not alcoholics" but many people here can see that it is a big problem, and that you won't be able to have a good marriage until and unless you solve that problem.
In 2004 you wrote
"So let me be fair about my drinking. Not only has he mentioned his concern before this A, but I have, too. My Dad was a severe alcoholic (died of cancer at 52) and his Mom was one too (died of Hep at 50-something), and I recognize my propensity to 'self-medicate.' I've always used it as an escape tool. When I'm very distressed, I drink more frequently. But even then, rarely more than a bottle of wine (standard bottle, not the magnum.)"
LINY:
you said,
Did you have this drinking problem before or after the A? The reason I ask this, is because it wouldn't be too bad of a POJA your H offered. HOWEVER, I don't think his intention (only you can be for sure) was to better your M or you: it was fingerpointing in a warped way. "You stop drinking and I'll stop drugging and f'ing this girl." WTF?!?!?
So let me be fair about my drinking. Not only has he mentioned his concern before this A, but I have, too. My Dad was a severe alcoholic (died of cancer at 52) and his Mom was one too (died of Hep at 50-something), and I recognize my propensity to 'self-medicate.' I've always used it as an escape tool. When I'm very distressed, I drink more frequently. But even then, rarely more than a bottle of wine (standard bottle, not the magnum.)
His criticism/concerns for my drinking did step up w/i the last year. Of course, this last year has been a personal doozy for me. Mom died at 61 Apr 03; my job/mgt posiiton w/ company I've been with for past 11 years was challenged (behind scenes/secretly, but I knew)bc of my damaged rep from former boss (I'd been blissfully unaware how OM had exagerated our encounters and the frequency and to whom - God that really sticks with you!) and bc I'd become a harsh, crass, hard-hitting MFr and lost interest in keeping a professional,feminine image; many troubles w/ S's behavior at home, school and socially; continued threat to lose my job for monthss; owed a ton in taxes last Apr, but borrowed to pay, etc.
There's more, but the gist of it is, I took a good long look at myself last Nov (when I thought it'd 'come to a head')and decided I couldn't be doing things right if so many things were going wrong. Made a decision to be a 'kinder, gentler' Me. Quit cursing. Looked for things to compliment in others. Showed the compassion I'd always felt in my heart, but rarely showed. Read tons of books to re-explore and re-awaken my spiritual side. Dieted and took off about 20 lbs (This was getting easy, as stress 'helps' w that!) Curbed my critical tongue. Resolved to quit wasting energy on petty things. Hug my S, D, H and friends and tell them I love them each day....
I was becoming a new person! No, I was restoring myself back to the pleasant, optimistic, good person I had once been, but hoping in a better way.
But to find out this Sep that H had already started the 'friendship' w OW 2 years ago, that in the midst of my cirsis in Nov, he was bailing her out of jail, that when I almost lost my job in Jan, he was attending her court date, that while I struggled to go to work every day, fearful every day that I might lose my job Feb through Jun, he was visiting her regularly at the county jail to comfort her and get to know her and 'falling in love' with her. Wow, that's a blow.
Yep. Tough year. But especially this has been a very tough month. Yep, I have definitely self -medicated.
I see my problem drinking as a problem waiting to become a big problem. There are healthier ways to escape. But to be frank, I'm not certain it's another project I can take on right now.
BTW, I'm pretty certain he's not drugging. Of course, if you'd asked me a month ago, I'd have been absolutely certain he'd NEVER have an A, let alone 'falling in love' with her and struggling with 'which one', either. These are things that had NEVER occurred to me... so, I'm not certain of much anymore, that's for sure.
I'm honestly becoming exhausted.
So, when and if we actually get to point where we actually work together, I think a POJA on the drinking is reasonable. Not now, though. I've got bigger fish to fry.
Thanks so much for the wise input.
[ October 25, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: restarting ]
Restarting, you have a serious problem with drinking.
ok. We are drinkers, but not alcoholics.
Well, maybe .....
http://depression.about.com/od/screeningtools/l/blmast.htmThe link is to screening questions.
Sounds to me your life/ relationship flips out under the influence.
Having drunken brawls is NOT normal and is a
You have drinking issues.
Get help.
ok. We are drinkers, but not alcoholics. Sounds to me like you don't mind lobbing a couple LBs yourself. It WAS a traumatic day, after all.
I am not trying to fill your lovebank, though. I am trying to point out something that is very obvious to me, and that there is a serious drinking problem going on here that is leading to this chronic craziness and high drama. Is your husband a drug addict or alcoholic? What is his problem? Do he use dope? You are talking to a fellow alcoholic who has been sober for 27 years who recognizes one of her own. The only place I have ever heard dramatic stories like yours was either in my own family [all drunks] or at AA meetings. That is how I knew you were one.
I went back and read some of your old posts and people were telling you back then that you needed to go to AA. You admitted then that you had a serious drinking problem. [all blamed on your problems though] You and your husband fought, cheated and got into drunken brawls back then too. Your old posts are filled with endless drama.
My point is that you folks need more help that we can offer here. Certainly AA and maybe a life coach or a pastor who can help you navigate life in a sane and adult way? I am not saying this to be mean, but you should understand how crazy your life looks to outsiders.
Gamma, before I go:
Married 1983.
1 1987 1x 1 guy looking for promotion
2 1989-90 4x 1 guy looking for promotion
3 1991 1guy 1x 'best friend' -ended after one "mistake"- but also my boss
4 1991 1 guy 1x looking for new job
5 1982 3 guys - H in Korea, mother bi polar and living w me ex boss, sure H was getting "happy endings", spinning out of control depressed and stressed w home)
6 1985 1 looking for promo 1 guy 8x
7 1987 1 looking for promo/protection 1 guy, boss, thru 2004 (this was a 'best friend' - I dunno, maybe once ever other month at best? I wasn't 'in love', but apparently he was?)
Shall I sugar-coat it? Why? at this point? You guys get to look at the stark facts of how a POS like me looked at things.
OK, so I have served the purpose of showing the business prostitute mentality. At least for that, I may shave some of the guilt from my burdens.
I would come home after this crap, filled with remorse, feeling like I was "doing for my family" cuz it was such a hard industry for women - and try to touch my H, and convey that I regretted without telling him, and that it was HIM I loved, and to silently beg for forgiveness from him and God.
I mean that quite literally. I would reach over and touch him as he slept, and hope my thoughts would move into him somehow.
I'm not saying it did the trick. I'm just saying that within the context, I tried to not be as awful as I felt.
Where do you live that you felt you had to prostitute yourself? Woman are stronger than ever and are running huge organuzation without doing that, As a woman working my enitire life I am saddened how you thought to get ahead. I have worked for it and I may not be a VP, but I am proud of my efforts.
Look, I know it was a long time ago, I am sorry you are back here again. The pain and hurt are still the same....
I am 54 and have worked my way up the corporate ladder in 2 Fortune 500 companies. Sleeping with coworkers doesn't gain one anything except a ruined reputation and a pink slip.
I would like to know the "industry" where it pays to sleep with men? Are you talking about the prostitution industry? Because that does work out here in corporate America.
retail auto sales/management.
It's a whorehouse.
Where do you live that you felt you had to prostitute yourself? Woman are stronger than ever and are running huge organuzation without doing that,
If I knew then what I know now....
I would hove protected myself and not done these things.
Do you really want me to sugar coat the truth, or tell you as it was (or how I saw it at the time?)
Or perhaps I could LIE. How's that gonna help?
Restarting,
Do you understand that your guilt and shame are not something your BH can use to recover with? What have you done for him?
I didn't recover my marriage until I learned to look at our relationship from my W's perspective.
God Bless
Gamma
And QUIT assuming you were me!
I was a rather innocent young woman who read all the feminist BC about how women could be just like men and succeed. I thought being in the "boys club" would escalate my career. It DID. At tremendous cost.
Gamma?
What are you suggesting? What Have I left undone for my BH?
I made a thorough confession.
What must I do?
( aw, wait a minute, have you guys thought about the fact that I've been 'clean' for 8 years and I'M THE ONE WHO GOT CHEATED ON????)
AGAIN?
Restarting,
What Have I left undone for my BH?
I sense, perhaps I'm wrong, that you never asked him what he wanted you to do.
God Bless
Gamma
Except for participating in providing vicarious entertainment values in discussions on "drunk/sober", multiple PAs by the current BW, and the utility of using sexual activity to spur career advancement in various industries, you still haven't provided any evidence that you can answer the salient question I posed much earlier today:
WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
I would abandon any hope, given the distractions that have arisen here, that you will find the mental/emotional energy to figure that out anytime soon, but I would respectfully ask that you give it some thought.
Gamma?
What are you suggesting? What Have I left undone for my BH?
I made a thorough confession.
What must I do?
( aw, wait a minute, have you guys thought about the fact that I've been 'clean' for 8 years and I'M THE ONE WHO GOT CHEATED ON????)
AGAIN?
Let me preface this by saying that it was you who claimed to want to be completely honest with the board. I respect that...I sincerely do.
One question:
Are you drinking right now?
Since your intent is to be honest, I would like an honest answer.
Restating, what a difference a few hours makes, eh?
I'm sure that you have that the MB you were experiencing when you were here before is gone, thank goodness.
We do not coddle those who come here. We aren't going to give you a pat on the back unless you deserve one.
NOT ONE OF US HERE BELIEVE THAT YOU DESERVE TO BE CHEATED ON, THAT'S YOU TALKING. THink about that for a second. Look back at all of these posts and point out where any poster suggested that YOU deserved it.
Instead, what you will find is that people are trying to show you where YOU need to improve.
Alcoholism runs in my family, and guess what I did after DDay? I didn't turn to alcohol. I intentionally made the effort to NOT bury my feelings behind a crutch. My children deserved a mother who, while broken, didn't fall into a complete downward spiral. I still haven't had a drink, and it's been 2+ years, and I didn't really drink before anyways. Maybe a few drinks a YEAR.
Your alcohol problem needs to be dealt with BEFORE you can work on your marriage. Your WH's drinking would need to be taken care of before your marriage recovery could even begin.
You also need to make amends for YOUR affairs. Have your affairs ever been exposed to anyone other than your WBH?
Your WH surfing porn was also a HUGE red flag. And the escort pages. WOW.
You can learn a lot from this forum, but getting help for your alcohol addiction needs to happen FIRST.
Are your children your WH's?
Both my children are his.
I aborted 2, after we married, much to my chagrin.
I am not enjoying being a WS (formerly).
I am getting struck again and again.
Is this board condemning me for drinking alcohol?
Is this a tea-totaling site?
My God. Have we gotten to were one cannot understand a life-challenging event? It's like telling the truth is a curse!
Are you really gonna curse me for being truthful?
I remember watching Dr Manny on Fox say Dr's are trained to double what patients confess. Well, no doubling needed, I'm truthful.
To me, it sounds like a lot of excuses to keep drinking. Will that get you where you want in life? Or are you ready for a change?
Did any of us condemn you for telling the truth? No. Stop throwing yourself a pity part over how you feel you are being treated. We aren't doing this to you, it's the way you are reading the posts.
You have some of the biggest assets on this board posting to you. There are new posters who would be HAPPY to have 2 of these people taking time out of their lives to post to them. We aren't going to tell you what you want to hear, we will tell you what you need to hear.
Can you explain why you admitted to having a drinking problem in the past and now claiming that you don't?
It's not easy to stick around and work the plans, but it is very rewarding. Your choice, as everything else in your life. Remember, it's never too late to do the right thing.
I am getting struck again and again.
If this is the case then you need to get the hell out of there and seek help. Nobody deserves this.
Is this board condemning me for drinking alcohol?
Is this a tea-totaling site?
Well, it seems to be quite the catalyst in your life for bad decisions and bad results. What do you think? It seems to me you are confusing criticism with enlightenment.
My God. Have we gotten to were one cannot understand a life-challenging event? It's like telling the truth is a curse!
Are you really gonna curse me for being truthful?
Has anyone here cursed you for telling the truth? Yep, you are going through a difficult time, and people here are willing to help, but there is obviously a larger underlying issue that must be addressed first. Alcohol.
I notice you didn't answer my very simple, but very direct question.
You are in denial of the the real problems with you. At this point, IMO, this transcends your marriage, infidelity, etc., etc.
You have a personal problem that must be addressed NOW. You are wasting your time trying to fix a relationship when you don't even have the brass to fix yourself first. You need some help, and need it now. If he is being abusive to you, then get the hell out and seek the help you need. No excuse for this.
You need to realize though, until you eliminate booze from your lifestyle, you will open the door for this to happen again.
Bet on it.
Is this really the way you want to spend the rest of your life?
Is this board condemning me for drinking alcohol?
Pointing out that you have an obvious drinking problem is not "condemning" you. You have a drinking problem and need to get help. You need more help than this board can offer.
sounds more like you cursing the posters trying to help you for being truthful.
Restarting, are you going to curse me for being truthful?
I'm cursing myself.
I took the alcohol test and am a problem drinker.
Every stupid thing I've ever done was under the influence.
I am miserable with this truth.
OK
Now ..... What?
We want you to be healthy & strong.
How long since your last drink?
Restarting,
I am miserable with this truth.
That's the first step to improvement, now join AA if you can't control it yourself.
I can tell you that almost nobody here was nasty with you just for the sake of nastiness, those folks don't last here, please appreciate that you are getting $100 an hour help for free. I can't express to you how much I've been helped.
God Bless
Gamma
Am I reading that right, you had a 17 year affair, from 1987 through 2004?
I have been reading your posts because my H is in the retail car business in your area...judging by your timeline, you never had an affair with him.
Some of these places, I agree, are ridiculous marriage-killing businesses if the people in them absorb the company morality. Are you still in the business?
No. I tried asking Justuss2 to remove that post, via email. I can't correct it with edit. I got virtually all the dates wrong. But the number of OM is correct, as are the number of times.
What makes my past so shameful, is I really didn't care for them, ergo, the prostitute comment.
@CWMI. Tampa Bay area.
Also, vis a vis my elevated status in the Co, I got to attend tons of events (sports boxes, galas, etc) where loads of businessmen from multiple industries attended with women other than wives.
Sounds like you need a new line of work.
Maybe you would have been viewed differently if you had acted differently from the beginning, but where things are now it will be hard for you to heal from both the alcohol and the adultery if, everywhere you go, you bump into people who still see you the way you were.
Neak,
Being the victim of betrayal was devastating. It changed my perspective completely. It is not a pain I would ever, ever deliver to anyone ever again.
I changed my whole life, am now returned to school for a different career, and have moved across the country twice in the past 4 years to "restart". I have absolutely no desire to ever return to FL, especially not Tampa.
I never wish to run into anyone who knew me as a POS. I don't need them to remind me and I have my own unbidden moments when I wallow in shame all by myself. I have a ton of regrets that visit even when there's nothing obvious to remind me.
I'm glad that you aren't still in the same job and physical area as before. It makes it so much easier to do the work that needs to be done.