Hey all-

My husband and I have been married for 3 years, no kids (just furry ones). I think we've grown too far apart to be happy together, and I made a major mistake recently by getting involved emotionally with another guy. We got together in person (he lives a few hours away) and I didn't intend it to happen, but we kissed. Ok, we kissed a lot. Husband figured out something was up within a few days and I confessed everything. He also started making some changes that made me realize he was willing to work on things, and I felt like I owed it to him to see if we can work through this. Cut off all communication with the other guy.

Here's the backstory. I was a completely different person when we met - insecure, overworked, overweight, smoker, drank too much, in an abusive work situation. He was a bit miserable himself. Fast forward, I am strong, healthy - some would say a bit obsessive but I have a passion for exercise and health - in a good career that I love, and working toward a career in training/ coaching with a goal of owning my own business someday. I live a big, passionate life. I run marathons and longer, and completed an Ironman last year. I'm the happiest I've been ever.

My husband, however, has stayed mildly depressed. He is passionate about his job but nothing else, he shows a very limited range of emotions and he rarely wanted to do anything active with me. For a whole I've felt that he was bringing me down. I tried talking to him about it but to no avail. He is finally in counseling and going to the gym, but I'm having a hard time trusting that he's not just doing it to make me happy rather than finding his passion. He said he'd be miserable without me. I don't want to be the sole determinant of his happiness.

I feel very little emotional attraction to him, although we get along pretty well and care about each other.

There have been other things - he always told me I was gone too much, working out too much, but never defined too much and when I tried to stay home, mostly he just wanted to mindlessly stare at the tv together. Not my thing. I do get involved in his interests, he just doesn't have many. He's been a negative person in the past, although he is making an effort to change it. Basically, I kept trying to do things for him to make him happy, he never seemed happy, so I gave up and got absorbed in my own interests and felt much better. Right or wrong, that's how I set myself up to be distant enough from him that I fell for someone else.

The other guy? As you might guess, I met him at an ultra marathon. He is equally passionate about health, pushing limits and life in general. It wasn't a physical attraction - he's a handsome dude but I didn't even notice until I spent time talking to him and began to admire his spirit and dedication and positive outlook. When we got together again, a month after we met, we talked for hours and saw eye to eye on everything. The kiss was icing on the cake.

I don't harbor delusions that I'd be happy ever after with the other guy, but I feel like I could live this mediocre, "ok" life with nobody to really share my passions and emotions, or take a chance that I could be with someone who inspires me...if not this other guy, someone else. I really feel like I need to take that chance. I really don't even mind losing my house and financial comfort. The things keeping me here are the devastation it would cause my husband (I do still love him) and honestly, he'd take the dog and I'd miss my dog.

He and I are in counseling, separately and together. Three different therapists.

That was complete, 100% honesty. Any thoughts??

~k~

Hang on, just one second... where is it.... Oh! Here it is!



My dear, I have been in your shoes. I hope you one day reach the point where the words I quoted above make you want to vomit with disgust as well.

You are in a great place to try and repair the damage you have done. Make no mistake, your actions have been extraordinarily damaging - to your husband, (i.e., the innocent victim), to yourself (whom you have also betrayed by your actions and breaking of your vows), to your friends and family, and to any wife or significant other of the OM (Other Man = your affair partner).

The good news is your husband seems willing to save this relationship with you, and intent on improving your marriage. Why should he not want to make you happy? He is demonstrating to you his commitment to you, your happiness, and the marriage - in the face of the greatest betrayal of his life! That is astounding, and he should be commended.

Others will be along to help you with the details. Briefly, you must:

1) Read the basic concepts on this site.

2a) Write a No Contact letter, give it to your husband for his approval and HIS sending of the NC letter. There are samples available on this site.

2b) Understand and adhere to NC - this means not just phone/email/physical meeting, but thoughts, photos, mementos, tokens, shared songs, whatever makes you think of your tawdry dalliance with a man who is not your husband. If you have anything from the race where you met the OM, that absolutely has to go. Ditto for any other items that bring up thoughts of the OM or the affair.

3) Full disclosure for your husband. Be compassionately honest. Whatever you do, do NOT hold back any details here, no matter how inconsequential you think they might be. Do not try to "protect your husband's feelings" - you further insult him by judging what he can and cannot handle so disrespectfully. If you withhold truth now, any recovery you achieve will be nullified when your husband finds out - and, believe me, he will find out - the real truth(s) later on. A great idea is to schedule a polygraph for yourself with a polygrapher your husband is satisfied with and questions your husband has composed.

4) Write a list of Extraordinary Precautions (EPs). You have been married for so few years, and yet you already strayed. These are typically happy, "easier" years in a marriage. Your EPs will have to be thoughtful, reflective, and ironclad. Identify what Emotional Needs the OM met and write up any number of scenarios regarding how you will protect your ENs from being met by anyone other than your husband.

This should be enough to get you started. Dr. Harley's program is simple, and you have the best chance of recovering after this. (I realize your post was not necessarily asking about how to recover, but I am chalking 99.9% of your post up to the foggy babblings of a wayward spouse. It's okay. All of us waywards have been there. What matters now is where you go from here.) Read, read, read, and keep posting.

Will your betrayed husband post here? He would likely benefit immensely.

Hi Vanilla,

I hope you are doing well.

Rungirl, welcome to MarriageBuilders.

There's a lot I could focus on, but I have to get to work. Please excuse any typos.

You seem to see some things clearly.

You seem to be in a complete fog about some other things.

By the way, I was the one who had the affair. I am going to be whispering to you here, so that you'll hear me.

Rule #1. Quit b.s.'ing yourself. (You can't b.s. me, because I was in an affair & out the other side.) Maybe you didn't intend a kiss at first, but along the way, you intended not to rule it out. And at some point, you certainly intended it. "100% honesty" means 0% fudging, 0% weasel-words, and 0% b.s. And if you're not 100% honest with yourself, there'll be no helping you or your marriage.

None of this is an excuse for infidelity. It is not even a mitigating factor. It's a misdirection. My affair partner once told me that people like she & I had "big hearts", in a context that meant to suggest that we were so full of love that we could almost hardly help but loveother people besides our spouses. At the time, I was so fogged-out that I let it pass without comment. But oh, what a crock that was! Yeah, I had a "big heart" alright -- so big that it had no room for her husband's feelings, and no room for my wife's feelings. It wasn't "big", rungirl, it was selfish. Instead of "I live a big, passionate life", try "I did what I wanted to do and chose not to give a rat's buttcheek about others until I got found out." Stop with the "I live a big life" self-deception. Try substituting "self-centered" for "big", and the sentence will be a lot more precise. Healing starts with complete, 100% self-honesty.

You can have marriage that's better than it has been before. No one is saying that you can have a better marriage solely through your won efforts, or that he won't need to do more to meet your emotional needs. I would suggest that you both get the book "Surviving An Affair" and read it together, a chapter at a time, and make note of your questions & thoughts, and set aside time to discuss them calmy. It wont be easy, but it may do you & your husband some good.
You have perceived correctly how this estrangement happens, and how we can allow ourselves to divide our loyalties. Kudos fro realizing this. You have more to realize, but it's a start.

And the Titanic was a great boat, except for that giant, gaping hole along the starboard side... This "great" guy is so great that he's willing to mess with another man's wife... basically, 100% willing to screw over a complete stranger (your husband) who's never done him any wrong. Does your "eye-to-eye" include that? Does your eye not see the giant, gaping charcter void inherent in a guy like that? (I'm still whispering to you here, so listen up): Does your eye or your brain think for even a minute that being able to run for 2 or 3 hours without stopping is indicative of any strength of character at all, in a guy who's willing to screw over the marriage of a complete stranger? (By the way, those aren't mere rhetorical questions, runnergirl. Your answers to them will determine whether anything else we say to you will be worth our time or yours.) What do you say?

No, the kiss was barf on the turd.

Do you love him enough to give him the dog? Again, that's not a rhetorical question. What's your complete, 100% honest answer?

Hi rungirl, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am not surprised that you feel very little attraction to him anymore. Would you like your house very much if you let it fall into disrepair and the weeds were a foot high in the front yard and the paint was peeling? It is the same with a marriage. When you neglect your marriage pretty soon it looks so shabby that just about any turd that comes along looks good. That is what happened here when you met the OM.

You set the stage by finding recreational activities outside of your marriage and left your husband behind.

You and your husband could have the same passion and romance that you had with the OM if you treated your marriage in the same way. Creating a marriage of interdependence where all of your leisure activities were spent together would be a good first step.


Is there a reason why you are going to all these counselors? Do any of them have any idea how to save a marriage? Do any of them have a plan to restore the passion to your marriage? What is the plan?

And will your husband come here to speak to us?

A man who comes onto a married woman has spit in her face. That is the highest insult a man can give a woman. I am sorry you allowed yourself to be degraded so badly.

To respond to some of the points that have been brought up:

Re: the OM. He's in the middle of a divorce himself. I deleted his number and blocked him on Facebook, but I do think of him all the time. I don't need specific triggers, he's just there if I'm not constantly distracting myself. Heck, I dream about him - nothing sexual. Last night I dreamed he refused to speak to me and I was devastated. The night before he was playing trombone in my bathroom. Random stuff. I did not send him a letter but had a text conversation where I cut off contact while H watched.

I disclosed everything to H. I put it all in a 7000 word essay and left out no details of all my thoughts and actions.

OK, correct. I did not rule out kissing him. I did not rule out anything when I went to see him. I didn't really think it would happen, but I certainly went in open to it.

I have been selfish lately, I'll admit it. I feel stuck, though. My husband doesn't want me to train so much, but struggles to want to do much else with me besides watching to. Until lately anyway, but I'm not sure things won't go back to the way they were. Then he days he supports what I do. I struggle to picture us happier, what that would even look like. I go back to when we were dating, but again, i was a totally different person then - one who required antidepressants to function. I don't want to go back to that person.

The OM...he does have flaws. I cut him some slack as far as what happened, and maybe I'm wrong for doing so, but I told him I wasn't happy being married. I threw in little reminders into conversation. I pretty much gave him the green light. In the moment, we were both being selfish and decided that as long as we didn't have sex, we weren't hurting anyone. After the fact, we understood that what we did was hurtful and felt awful about it. Basically, I take the blame. He actually shut down the EA talk early on and from then on, we were friendly, until well into our second in-person meeting. I thought he didn't have feelings for me. Everything that happened was him following my lead. It was still wrong of him, sure, but I can't assign as much blame to him as I do to me.

As for being able to run for 2-3 hours, most people wish they could run a marathon that fast. I get what you're saying though, you're right, endurance athletes are a tenacious bunch but that doesn't mean they're all wonderful people.

I do love my husband enough to give him the dog. That's why I brought it up. He'd want the dog and it wouldn't be fair to fight him for it. But I struggle with the idea of leaving my dog more than the idea of leaving my husband.

And my husband is a wonderful, forgiving person. I have to give him that. If the roles were reversed, I wouldn't be half as amazing as he has been in all this. He told me he'd die for me. Would anyone else on earth do that? My parents would, but anyone else, I doubt it.

However, he deserves to be happy, too. He deserves a wife who wants to be with him. I'm struggling with WHY to stay besides the fact that we vowed to do so. But otherwise, I still wrestle with the thought that we're fundamentally different and won't ever be able to understand each other. I've read the emotional needs and I see where we've both had some unmet ones, but there are some that aren't on the list. I need to share my passion with someone who gets it. I need a spouse who is happy, positive and passionate himself. I need motivation and inspiration. I'm tired of being happy for two - something my therapist said, something my husband acknowledges.

Re: counseling. I've been seeing a therapist to help me sort out my head after I realized I was unhappy in my marriage. My husband is seeing one to sort through his own depression. We just started seeing one together for us; I'm not sure what her angle is.

I would love to find more leisure activities with him but historically this has been a struggle. He needs a lot more down time than I do; I'm an extrovert with a lot of nervous energy who can't sit still for long. When i tried to cut back, i was very depressed. He does run and work out with me sometimes, moreso now, but we have very different goals with it. For me, it's more than a hobby - it keeps me sane. Literally. Not to mention making a career out of exercise/wellness.

More on this later, but I would suggest it is a distraction to see a counselor to "sort out your head" at a time when your marriage is crumbling. WE know why you were unhappy: your marriage was neglected and something better came along. I would not expect a marriage counselor to know how to save a marriage. They are typically destructive to marriages and have a higher divorce rate than the general population. I would ask your marriage counselor if she has proven plan to restore the love to your marriage.


The solution is to find recreational activities that complement your marriage, not harm it. Yes, it is hard, but so is getting a divorce. So is devastating your spouse by having an affair.

He is MARRIED. "Middle of divorce" means MARRIED.

Your therapist did not help you sort through things.
They let you vent your version of life and simply gave validity to your version.

Did they ever once challenge your version of your life? Ever once ask you to consider that you were wrong and making things worse?

Probably not. If they questioned you it was to have you further ruminate on your current thinking not to guide you to look at things from a better perspective and one that would help you get on the right track, one that would help you face and deal with problems you percieved in your life in a positive and marriage centered direction.

Your best chance of happiness lies with your husband.

He is married to you.
He supports you more than any other human on the planet.
You two could create a romantic, amazing life together if you followed the path that leads to that.
1. time spent together
2. meeting each others most important emotional needs
3.avoiding lovebusters
4.other marriage builder concepts and guidelines.

Well...I don't know if I have the depth of vocabulary to eloquently describe this concept - but I will try.

The goal of individual counseling (IC) vs marital counseling (MC) is to strengthen the individual fibers within ourselves/psyche. The goal is not to create, foster or reinforce connections with another individual. Thus - IC and MC are tools/resources with diametrically opposed goals. It's the reasons why concepts such as "being happy for two" seems so fitting in IC with the goal of reinforcing self, but really has not much of place in MC.

In fact - being happy for two isn't real. It's impossible to be happy for two. No human being on this planet has the capacity to be happy for two. We barely have the capacity to be happy for ourselves. But it doesn't mean that's not what your feeling. In reality what you are describing when you say "being happy for two" is verbalizing how you feel when you have to rebuff your husbands perceived/real negative emotional state and continue your day as though his mood doesn't affect yours. And if you are in his presence, you have to keep the facade of your happiness to rebuff his negative attitude. It's exhausting and self limiting (prevents you from expressing how you really feel).

The breakthrough is when you realize that Dr. Harley speaks about the policy of Radical honesty - which includes emotional honesty, historical honesty, current honesty, and future honesty. For now I will focus on emotional honesty. By being emotionally honest with your husband it frees you from having to keep a facade that you can be happy in the face of his negative mood. You also make him aware of your feelings/emotions with respect to your spouse's particular behavior. The feelings of being happy for two - are abated by your revealing to your spouse as much information about your emotions and feelings as possible. You are no longer self limited.

To quote Dr. Harley:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_honesty.html


I strongly advise you buy a copy of Surviving an Affair. Read it together as a family. As husband and wife. Follow the steps closely. Be earnest and honest in your efforts and the love that you say is lost, and the feelings that you once had and now say are gone will slowly come back.

This is turning into a broken record. We need to find leisure activities together. This is a struggle for us. Well, we need to do it. How the heck do we figure out what we like to do together? I love to do a lot of things that he doesn't. He doesn't have a lot of interests or passions in general. He told me once that he is reluctant for me to get involved in things that he enjoys because he's afraid I'll surpass him in interest and ability. That happened with running, actually. And when he needs down time and I don't? We're not supposed to spend any leisure time apart, right?

Everythingcracks, all very true. I'll put that book on the kindle today (we share the account).

And yes, I've tried to be positive and make him happy for a long time and when I got to the point where I realized I couldn't make him happy and I was draining myself, I set out to just make myself happy. I'm damn good at that but at the expense of feeling like I don't need him around anymore.

Start with this

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.html

Do it. Your husband does it. You compare and discuss.

Firstly - your affair should be the focal point of the conversation - "finding leisure activities together" is on the back end (in fact - having you and your husband sit down separately and write a list of activities and compare them after - then engaging in all those activities together is an easy fix)

What isn't so easy is getting your mind and your husband back on track. He is in a lot of pain. For me it took 3 months for me to hit rock bottom. I would wake up out of my sleep crying so uncontrollably that it woke my wife from her sleep. I'm sure your husband is trying to resolve his feelings.

During this period you should be equipping your tool belt with the tools you will need to deal with various situations you will encounter over the next few months.

I will urge you again to go to your nearest public library or buy the book Surviving an Affair. It will be your guide and will show you exactly why, when, and what you need to do.

EDIT - I saw that you will buy it on the kindle and share the account! Excellent!! I did the same thing with my wife!

You seem to be what Dr. Harley refers to as a "renter," and your husband seems to be a "buyer." Rather than holding out for win/win solutions to problems, you seem to believe that sacrifice is sometimes acceptable in a relationship. When your husband didn't respond to your sacrifices the way you wanted him to, you ran over him with self-centered, independent behavior. (It is as if you and your husband were in a 3-legged race, and instead of getting in sync with him so you could run together, you just started running full speed ahead and dragged him behind you.) Now you are trying to rationalize that behavior as the natural consequence of your having "evolved" into a better person, disrespectfully judging your husband as having an inferior capacity for personal growth. In order to restore the love you and your husband used to share, you need to spend time giving each other undivided attention and meeting each other's intimate, emotional needs. You can't do that if you choose to spend most of your free time away from him. Here's what Dr. Harley has to say about independent behavior:


Once you are married, almost everything you decide to do has either a positive or a negative impact on each other -- you are either depositing or withdrawing love units with every decision you make. So if your decisions are not made with each other's interests in mind, you will risk destroying the love you have for each other.

I define Independent Behavior as the conduct of one spouse that ignores the feelings and interest of the other spouse. It's usually scheduled and requires some thought to execute, so the simplest way to overcome this Love Buster is to take it off your schedule. If your Thursday night bowling, or visit to a friend of the opposite sex, or spending five hours chatting on the internet while your spouse sits alone watching TV, schedule something else Thursday night, visit someone else, and spend time doing something with your spouse. And whatever it is you decide to do that replaces independent behavior, be sure that both you and your spouse enthusiastically agree to it.

My ninth Basic Concept, the Policy of Joint Agreement, (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse), helps eliminate independent behavior -- any event or activity that is not mutually agreed to cannot take place. It forces you to take your spouse's interests and feelings into account when you forget that your spouse is an extremely important part of yourself, and should be considered in every decision you make.

Independent behavior is a problem in most marriages because we are all tempted to do whatever makes us happy, even when it makes our spouse unhappy (the Taker's rule). We don't feel the pain our spouse feels when we are inconsiderate -- all we feel is the pleasure gained from activities that are only in our best interest. That's why the Policy of Joint Agreement is so important in marriage. It forces us to behave as if we feel each other's pain -- it makes us behave as if we were empathetic.

A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior, which limits your your events or activities to those that benefit both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of your suffers when you behavior interdependently, making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind. When you get to my tenth Basic Concept, Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation, I'll show you how to replace Independent Behavior with Interdependent Behavior.

I'm struggling the most with this one. I'm almost done with the book (this is what working from home looks like, ha) and I just got to the part where he says that if an activity doesn't interest your spouse, give it up, and don't develop skills in an activity your spouse doesn't enjoy.

He will run with me but he has no desire to do endurance sports or to run enough that we're at the same pace. I get it - most people aren't endurance athletes and to be fair, I think most people are endurance athletes because we're neurotic. (I'm a huge overachiever, perfectionist, and running replaced my lexapro.) But I am passionate about pushing myself to go further and faster and constantly be better. I can't bring him along for the ride. I have to give this up? the book emphasizes that both people have to be happy with the solution. I'll only resent him if I can't pursue some of my goals - most of which are either related to fitness or to my own fitness-related business.

Take a look at this: Resentment Type A and B

What do you think?

I'll only resent him if I can't pursue some of my goals - most of which are either related to fitness or to my own fitness-related business.

May I respectfully suggest that to a "buyer", that sentence would be:

I'll only resent my pursuit of fitness or my fitness-related business if I can't pursue my goal of having, maintaining, and nurturing my marriage.

Think about that.....

I get it but I don't. It's not like it's a one-time thing. To me, giving up the quantity of exercise that I do means giving up on several life goals, including my dream of my own coaching/training business (which to me means having the athletic experience to back it up and the athletic ability to keep up with clients.) To back off to a level that is more comfortable to my husband may very well mean that I can't accomplish a lot of things that I was looking forward to, as well as having to change a core value of always pushing myself to be better.

I suppose I can try to find life goals that are more, I don't know, compatible with my marriage, but that's a tall order. 32 years to find my passion In life and I have to rethink it because it takes me away from my husband?

This has been enlightening so far, though. I'm really putting a finger on what's been going on between us and why previous attempts to solve it haven't worked.

Rumor has it that ironman finishers have a higher divorce rate than the general population. Interesting tidbit in case more ever wander in here.

I don't think you are giving your husband enough credit. You are looking for excuses right now.

I would bet your husband would enthusiastically do a lot of things with you that you enjoy if you would put your marriage back together.

You're fixated on the endurance sports aspect. Have you tried a sport or physical activity that is completely new with your husband. If your a true "huge overachiever, perfectionist" then you are inately ultra competitive. What better of a challenge for you then to take on a new challenge that you have zero skills in with your husband. You guys can grow in activity together, urge each other on and deposit love units into each other's banks.

Sitting and being fixated on changing your sport is not a solution to the problem, taking something new up and dedicating to it with a partner is a solution that will help build love between your husband and you as well as satisfy your need for competition and physical achievement. Get out of your own way, fixing a broken marriage is not easy <<EDIT>> BUT that does not mean happiness isn't possible. Get out of the way, try something new, <<EDIT>> make up for what you did, that is what true recovery is about. Him getting into your interests at all costs is another selfish idea on your part, IT NEEDS TO BE A 2 WAY STREET.

What a scumbag

Do you realize he only wants you for a piece of A@# and as soon as something newer, prettier, sexier comes along he will dump you like he did his current wife.

Yes.

Since marathon participation led to your affair, it is crucial that you give it up.

Yes, it can be a "struggle" to find leisure activities you both enjoy. So you keep looking until you find them. It is not the impossible mission, you just have to be creative until you find it.

The point of marriage is to make each other happy. Finding your "happiness" outside of your marriage instead of inside has just about destroyed your marriage. You can learn to make him happy and he can learn to make you happy. Wouldn't you agree that is what happens when you are in love with someone?

Perhaps you can be "passionate about pushing yourself to go further and faster and constantly better" in finding a solution to this.

nonnonono, you don't have to give anything up. But if you want to have a marriage, you are going to have to give up anything that comes BEFORE your marriage. And it sounds like this does. You have already had an affair with a married man by having a separate leisure lifestyle so you already know this is a disaster.

Your "resentment" is not the issue here. The greatest risk is your HUSBAND'S resentment. Your resentment willy only last until another replacement activity can be found. His will last FOREVER. So no, we are not worried about your resentment.

I'm glad you are able to express something that is very important to you. This is where the policy of joint agreement will come in to help come to an agreement where both of your needs are met.

A solutions exist. How about biking along with you runs? Rollerblading? When you have to do marathons or train for marathons what creative role can you come up with where he can participate? (meeting at the starting line, finish line)

Use the policy of joint agreement for a create solution to this area that is very important to you.

Anything that comes BEFORE your marriage will eventually come BETWEEN you. And it has.

RGR,

6 weeks past Dday for me and THIS quote pretty much summarizes where my wife's head was when she started her A.

I worked alot (70+) hours a week for a military job, and significant sea time. She worked part time just to keep her nursing skills sharp and make some friends. And...got obsessively involved in exercise. Marathons, Triathlons, LD swimming, etc. We both thought she was pursuing her dreams...passionate about pushing herself to the max. Turns out it was something called Independent Behaivior that I eventually started to resent. Truth in advertising, I am the poster child for Disrespectful Judgements. So she had an A, not with a fellow athlete, but some louse who "admired" her for her personal acheivements.

We're on the MB program and we've acknowleged these two lovebusters. She eliminated independent behavior and I'm doing well with my DJ. She enjoys the 25 hours a week we spend together far and above the of 25 hours a week of excercise. The difference is, she did that because she loves me and wants to save the M. It doesn't sound like you would do the same.

To your H: I hope your wife is 100% honest and no sexual activity occured. It was still an affair, you just won't have to deal with too many of the sick mind movies. Stand up for yourself and refuse to accept your wife's independent behaivior. You can fix your M. You can run (a little) with your W, you can go to her races and ring a cowbell when she finishes, take a class on precision tuning bicycles, co-run her busness if that's what the future holds. Point is, she wants to do this...a set of circumstances exists where she can do this AND it's not independent behavior. Negotiate a way where you both enthusiasticly agree to the rules. You have to want it though.

RGR: If your husband posts, I have other thoughts for him. I'm not even CLOSE to recovered, but your story reminds me of some things I wish I had done before it was too late. Now I struggle with the mind movies and ANGER.

Many a OM work this line for as many years as they can. Some OM have been able to string along their OW till they have wasted 30 years of their lives waiting for their OM so they can be together. Told old now to dump the OM and find a husband and have kids of her own.

Where she now see's the OM even less because he has to see HIS grand kids. Or HE has to take HIS wife to the second home they bought for their retirement that week.

You need to find a hobby and or sport that you and your BH can do together. You spend more hours training and racing without your BH then Dr Harley has spouse spend on Us Alone time that he requires for a couple to spend time together to have a good marriage.

Your married, (but in the middle of a divorce), affair partner met you multiple times due to being involved in marathon running.

I'm sure he will run into you again, even if it's just a "casual" walk-by, so to avoid putting Your Husband through repeated trauma, these evens should be Mutually Agreed to not be a part of your lifestyle.

Every contact will set the recovery clock back to Day 1, but now be exponentially magnified by a callous disregard for the new pain intentionally flaunted in his face.

Extraordinary Precautions, (EP's), are an immediate necessity right now!!!

Read up on them, plus others may share their lists of EP's for you to explore.

Make Your Marriage a safe haven for now.

LTL

That is not Marriage Builders advice for recovery; in fact, it is the exact opposite. Dr. Harley describes a "renter" as a person who accepts win/lose "solutions" and believes it is acceptable for spouses to take turns sacrificing for each other. Dr. Harley explains that the "renter" approach is not sustainable in marriage. He teaches that both spouses need to become "buyers" and hold out for win/win solutions.

The policy of joint agreement requires the enthusiastic agreement of both spouses. That is the opposite of sacrifice by one spouse.

Did you see this?

If you had contact with him on FB, it would be best if you close the account, because, yes, it WILL trigger you. You are quite clearly triggered.

When is the last time you had contact?

This kind of stood out to me.

You realize that your situation is not special or any different than any other affair situation, right? The "7000 word essay" tells me you think your situation is "unique" which it is not.

Your M was not happy because of the same reason that many marriages are not happy - lack of POJA (do not do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse), lack of UA time, and IB on your part (your running, etc), not meeting each other's ENs, etc.

If you do not learn to solve these issues (basically using extraordinary care) and you end up D your H, you will eventually be unhappy in ANY marriage you find yourself in into the future, even if your spouse was a marathon runner like yourself.

And your affair also happened just like any other affair happened -- you allowed a person of the opposite sex to meet your important ENs. Even if your marriage was a happy one, by doing this, you still would have been at extremely high risk for an affair.

I understand, what I meant was trying something new that they could both enjoy would fall in the policy of joint agreement. It may mean giving something up one spouse enjoys if it brings misery to the other.

<<<<EDIT>>>>

Ummm wow. I was being factual. I get things out by writing; initially I began writing the essay to get my own thoughts out of my head and then realized it would be a good vehicle for 100% honesty with my H if he wanted to read it, which he did. Where the heck from that did you get that I was saying my situation is unique? I was reiterating that I was honest and included everything, hence 7k words to describe one month of time that was mostly pretty boring (OM and I didn't even talk much between sightings, mostly a lot of buildup in my head.)

As for whether H will join the forum, I told him about it, but I don't know if he plans to join. He's funnier than I am about processing things on an online forum. I'm leaving it up to him.

As for fb, I use it for a number of purposes, and it's my main form of contact with most of my friends and family (moved around a lot). As such, I hesitate to get rid of it and again, OM is completely blocked. I can't see him, he can't see me. We used to text and I can't throw my phone out the window. Wish I could sometimes but I'd be out of a job.

Last contact with OM was 8/30.

I'm aware of why H and I weren't happy and we're tackling those things to see if they're fixable.

Odds are that I wouldn't run into OM again. We live 4 hours apart. I do mostly local races and so does he.

There seem to be lots of judgments here. I don't, as a matter of fact, spend 15 hours training/racing these days, although I did when I was training for IM. H and I have struggled with what to do with alone time for years now. I have tried sacrificing my time for us time, only to end up staring at the tv because we couldn't come up with anything to do together. We're trying again. He did say he would do some races with me but I don't know if we can make it part of the POJA. The enthusiastic part will throw a wrench in things because his default mode is indifference. He is rarely enthusiastic about anything and this is something he admits himself.

Actually, there's a question. When one partner is so even keel (and somewhat depressed by default) as to rarely be enthusiastic about anything, how do you come to so many enthusiastic agreements? If we only do things he is enthusiastic about, we will do pretty much nothing.

I'm also seeing a lot of differing opinions about running and races and etc. I will say, right or wrong, if it came down to running or my marriage, I'd leave my marriage. H doesn't want to tell me to give up on it as he recognizes it as the core of who I am and what keeps me sane and functioning - it also helps me manage a medical condition that I didn't mention, hence why I was overweight and depressed when we met.

That is really sad, but if you are incapable of placing your marriage first, then I don't know how much hope there is for it. Take it from an old guy; the time will come when you will be incapable of running. Maybe you will find another activity, but to give up your marriage?, that is just plain sad. With priorities like that, you will never have a successful relationship. You need to place your marriage first, then find an activity that you both enjoy. It is not that hard to do.

The reason we told you this is because you could sum up your affair in 2 sentences. There is really no need for 7000 words and in fact all that did was show your husband how "important" this scumfest was to you. You stomped down harder on your husbands heart by writing 7000 words about it.


You realize you can unblock the scumbag in 2 seconds right? You can and you will so its better to just get rid of it. There are other ways to communicate than FB. FB is an affair facilitator


I wish this were true. Unfortunately you are wrong. You probably will run into him unless you put extraordinary precautions in place.



And this is the heart of the matter. Putting a "thing" before your marriage. If this truly is your belief than it would be better to divorce your husband now before you hurt him further. Please avoid any sexual contact with your husband until the divorce is complete as any possible children do not deserve your selfishness.

Sorry to be so hard but you have a serious issue that has nothing to do with your husband.

"I'm also seeing a lot of differing opinions about running and races and etc. I will say, right or wrong, if it came down to running or my marriage, I'd leave my marriage"

I appreciate your honesty about this. In that case, your husband should understand that this marriage is hopeless and he is better off leaving the marriage. Anything that comes before the marriage will eventually ruin it, as you have learned the hard way. That makes you a very dangerous spouse to him.

Of course she does

Rungirlrun, all I hear from you is excuses. One after another. As long as you continue to make them, and as long as you put anything before your marriage, your marriage will not recover. You are another affair waiting to happen.

I will not change who I am and my passion in life in order to stay with anyone. I would never in a million years expect that of anyone else either. I think some of y'all are ridiculous. Nobody should ever have to change the crux of who they are to make someone else happy; if they do, they are obviously married to the wrong person.

You can unblock someone in two seconds, and then you can't block them again for 48 hours. H is free to check my fb at any time to ensure that he is still blocked. Furthermore, it would be detrimental to everyone if I attempt to contact OM. I recognize this, which is why I don't have contact with him. I could easily text him as well. I know his phone number by heart. Or should I get a lobotomy to fix that??

And actually, H said that reading what I wrote was helpful. It helped him to see what EN's weren't being met, and helped him to finally believe I was being honest and not holding anything back. Just because somethng isn't in your particular toolkit doesn't mean it's not helpful for some.

So a question...there seem to be a lot of religious folks on here...what if you had to change your religion in order to keep your spouse? Would you convert to satanism for them? We all have our limits.

You're not going to make it.

The fog is thick with this WS.

It's sad.

If one is married, you should be each other's passion.

I respect your honesty; if you truly feel this way, please share this with your husband so you two can divorce and he has an opportunity to meet someone who will make him, his being, his thoughts, his feelings a priority over a physical activity.

Now you're being ridiculous.

Deleting FB and changing your cell phone # and committing to an interdependent life with a man who loves you are not equivalant to converting to satanism.

Sheesh...

No, but I would GIVE UP religious practices in order to keep her. There's a major difference.

It takes a leap of faith. If you start spending 15 hours a week of UA time coving the intimate ENs, you'll be surprised what you (and him) would be enthusiatic about doing...after all, you'de be in love again. Right now, you're in love with your independent behavior and he resents you for it.


I'll leave that to a vet to address, but my wife would have said the same thing 6 months ago. She's also a writer, I have way more than 7000 words from her explaining her behavior. Most of it during her A. She acknowleges that it was utter fogbabble and is embarrassed for herself.

...to keep your spouse? Would you convert to satanism for them?

If only...! Most of my clients convert from their chasing their APs!

Here is the difference you can't seem to be able to see..

When you are 60 or 70 years old and can't peruse running or marathons what will you have?? No Husband, no family and just a load of memories of running a few decades before.

if you work at your marriage and get your priorities straight and you are lucky enough to keep your caring H at your side at 70 when you can share happy memories of raising a family and building a great life together that's when you truly realise the importance of things.

And running is not the crux of who you are, you said it yourself just a few years ago you were a different person then you changed and got into running so you weren't born with this burning passion you took it on and you can leave it just as quickly if you open your mind just long enough to hear what everyone here is trying to tell you you might finally understans that a great marriage is with much more than any "hobby" you might be into right now. You can have a great marriage but it isn't delivered by pixies with a magic spell, it takes work.

Are you prepared to do any work on anything other than your own selfish needs right now???

Now for a serious answer to your "religious" question, RGR.

The most emotionally/mentally healthy folks apparently arrange the priority order of GOD - SPOUSE/FAMILY - JOB - OTHER.

You've already tangled up the second/third canon, and want to muddy the water by extending that confusion to the first/second placement.

It is highly telling that you took that tack. From a view way out here in cyberland, it is glaringly obvious that, in your scheme, RGR comnes number one over all others.

Good luck to your husband.

Arrrrgh.

If I change who I am, I will end up divorced. If I don't change who I am, I will end up divorced.

H has not asked me to quit running. He is happy that I run. It's all of ya'll who don't know me who think I shouldn't run. I think the hyperbole got a little out of hand.

My point was, at some point there are things that aren't fair to ask of another in a marriage. I do not believe in staying married at all costs, nor does that go along with the principles outlined in the book anyway. I do believe in being faithful to my husband; I don't believe I'm having an affair or at risk of one every time I put my running shoes on.

Now I need to change my phone number? To what end? OM doesn't contact me. I mean I could, but that seems unnecessary and a huge hassle - 3 employers and lots of clients who have that number, to prevent contact that's not happening?

Than you will die a bitter, lonely woman. I'm sorry.

I'd rather be lonely than untrue to myself.

True, running is not the crux of who I am, but it represents things that are who I am - a person who strives to challenge herself, do the impossible, be healthy and strong, squeeze every drop out of life. The person I used to be was unsure, depressed, utterly unconfident and turned to unhealthy behaviors to self-medicate. Go back to being that person? Nooooo way.

Thank you for answering my questions. A lot of this fogbabble isn't worth the time to respond to.

As I suspected, you are extremely foggy and haven't even begun to take the steps necessary to come out of the fog.

You are going to have to put down the crackpipe (close FB and change your phone number, get rid of ALL mementos of the affair for starters and probably even give up your running until your M improves).

Good luck!

"I will not change who I am and my passion in life in order to stay with anyone. I would never in a million years expect that of anyone else either. I think some of y'all are ridiculous. Nobody should ever have to change the crux of who they are to make someone else happy; if they do, they are obviously married to the wrong person. "

Dr Harley would classify you as a "freeloader." Freeloaders can't sustain a marriage anyway so your husband is better off cutting his losses now. His future with you will be a disaster.


from Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyer believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Rentersbelieve Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

For the purposes of clarity - no one is saying not to run. It's an important part of who you are.

Using the policy of joint agreement you and your partner can come to an agreement where you can still enjoy running but he can also enjoy participating with you in some capacity.

1. Refrain from speaking on behalf of your partner and saying he never is enthusiastic about agreement - he has yet to learn about this program

2. Don't put anything above your marriage. Your marriage should be your #1 priority in your life. As you are intimately aware - by placing running ahead of your marriage facilitated an affair. Continuing to do so will only lead to the same result.

If you read about POJA, then you would never have to do this. Now, if infidelity occurred with someone who is a memmber of your church or religious activity then you should absolutely give up that church or activity. There are many different churches where you can practice religion.

Just as I had mentioned before, there are many different acitivities that your interests can be met. You werent into running a few years back and now it has become your entire life and more important that your marriage. Is it too hard to believe that you could not feel this passionately about a different recreational activity that you could partake in with your husband? It requires you giving it a shot and finding out not just dismissing the idea without ever trying it.

Who you are is not "running" or "marathons" or any "thing". WHo you are is passionate and driven. You can be passionate and driven about a lot of things. Find a "thing" that your husband also is passsionate and driven about.


He should have and the only reason he hasn't is because he doesn't understand the danger it is to your marriage and him.


No one here has suggested that.


Your actions speak otherwise.


Are you really so jaded that a small thing like changing your phone number to protect your marriage and husband is so terrible?

"I'd rather be lonely than untrue to myself. "

You should be alone since you do not have skills to sustain a relationship with anyone. Sure, you might get the occasional romp with some married man, as you did here, but you can't keep a man in a committed relationship.

Ask yourself who want relationship with a woman who puts her hobbies first, is unfaithful and who screws around with married men? Yuck..

That is a pretty shabby resume and that is the "true" you.

You said it yourself, running is not the issue. Feeling accomplished, confident, taking on a challenge is what is refreshing. There has to be a way or an activity you can do and include your spouse that meets these needs for you. Don't just dismiss it because you are trying to justify your current decisions, if it doesn't add up then there is probably a reason.

Your identity and sense of self-worth are so fragile that you would lose it if you stopped running? Your favorite activity has actually become "the crux of who you are"? When you said that your hobby "literally" keeps you from going insane, I assumed you were exagerating. If your mental health is really that unstable, I'm afraid you are going to have a very difficult time saving your marriage. Regardless, I wish you and your husband all the best.

Then do the kind thing for your husband and divorce him. Unless you change your behavior, you are a danger to him.

I would be willing to change my phone number if it were causing a problem. It's not. I don't even know where that idea came from.

I agree, I can find other physical outlets and H and I are talking about doing some workouts together. However, I have a higher need for activity than he does. We will need to work through that for sure. Like I said, I don't "sit" well. There's still a lot of time we need to figure out how to fill together.

the fog is thick....


Your BH needs to post in order to gain some clarity on the situation that is facing the both of you.


and only because I'm a zealot...

but there are a host of reasons to give up high intensity endurance events and similair training modalities, primarily your long term health.

I'm guessing you don't know many athletes. regardless, I have depression and anxiety that are regulated through exercise. They're caused by a hormone imbalance.

Your phone IS a problem and so is Facebook.
You're the one with the addiction here, so please don't tell us what the problems are.
We're telling you how to put down the crackpipe, Rungirlrun. It sounds like you really don't want to let it go.

"High intensity endurance" is an oxymoron. Probably beside the point.

I can't make H post. I gave him the option but he's not much for online forums.

Please explain how my phone is a problem. Rather, my phone number, as I don't have the option to get rid of my phone.

It is not a problem. Just go ahead and end your marriage, because it will not work out under these circumstances. You will be saving yourself and your husband a lot of heartache rather than trying to recover in circumstances that aren't going to work.

RunGirl,
Your latest responses have consisted of frankly ridiculous, illogical attempts to justify your bad behavior.

Don't feel bad though. This is a normal reaction from wayward spouses. You are addicted to the affair just as you would be addicted to crack. A crack addict doesn't want to give it up and will do the craziest, most destructive things to keep it.

I suggest you step back for a few hours or a day and really think about what we are telling you. We will be here when you return.

You can break the addiction RunGirl. You can have a great marriage. We can show you how.

Let us help please.

It is a problem because it is a condition that existed in the affair that needs to be changed in order to prevent the affair from rekindling. This affair proofing/NC 101.

But the point really is if you can't be bothered to do something so simple, your M isn't going to make it.

Selfishness, laziness and lack of extraordinary care is what got your marriage into the crisis that is in right now.. Continuation of the same behavior = no recovery.

Exactly!

Actually, you guys are the ones throwing orders and judgments at me. At least dr whatshisname (can't access the book right now as it's on the same tablet that I'm using) is able to approach matters with some understanding and explanation as to why certain steps are important.

H and I did have a good conversation earlier and I was feeling better about things until I came back here. So maybe it is best that I leave for a while and try to muddle through with H.

We're not telling you to do anything that he wouldn't tell you to do, Hon. Many of us have done these things ourselves, and saved our marriages. We've been there, and did what it takes.

If you're not willing to do what it takes, well then, there's not much we can do for you.

We'll be here when you're ready.

Certainly not in reference to hiit, regardless what you call it, endurance, medium intensity endurance, continuous endurance etc


very much so

The goal here is not to make you feel good about doing the wrong things.

I'm glad to hear that you have Dr. Harley's book. That is the guide to the only successful plan I know of for how to recover a marriage after an affair. I encourage you to contact Dr. Harley directly on his radio show: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

What we do on this forum is help support people through the process of following Dr. Harley's proven plan.

I've made plenty of changes. Changing one's phone number when it is a work phone as well as a personal phone (for everything, we have no land line) is actually extremely difficult. I changed it last year and it was a nightmare; I only recently stopped having complications with work because of it. And for what? If OM was contacting me, I would, but he has made no attempts. And even if I change my number, I still have his. Memorized.

Then you are not willing to do what it takes to save your marriage.

I am not surprised that your H is depressed and that he is only passionate about work. Maybe work is the only place where he gets any recognition for his own strengths and accomplishments.


Who wants to spend their life in constant competition with their spouse?


If you are only interested in your own self fulfillment and cannot change because that is who you are - then you should divorce your H before you brings kids into the picture.

Good luck to you Rungirlrun. I see you headed down a long lonely road.

Okey dokey.

When you are ready to start listening and learning, we'll be here!

Changing your phone number is a very basic Extraordinary Precaution. If you can't do that, then you are at risk and a danger to your husband.

All it takes is one phone call out of the blue for the affair to resume and everything to crumble. ONE.

Please read.
To The Unfaithful~ A Gift

Also this.
Extraordinary Precautions

Are you just here to argue? Is this what you are going to say every time someone tells you something needs to be done?

MB is ALL about making changes -- taking your spouse's feelings and what's best for the marriage into account for all aspects of your decision making.

I was giving her too much credit when I originally assumed she was a "renter." The more RGR wrote, the more obvious it became that she doesn't even approach her relationship with a "renter's" level of commitment. She is a "freeloader." Her marriage is doomed.

I rode horses professionally at the upper levels when DH and I met. He requested I stop riding for others and training professionally, and I have. I still have a pony in the backyard, I may hop on some friend's backyard horses, but I haven't thrown my leg across a professional level horse in several years.

My marriage is worth far more than any hobby, even a hobby we had when I met, that I've invested many years into.

Why do you keep calling attention to the fact that you have the scumbag's number memorized? Are you assuming your husband will read this and trying to make him afraid that you will call the scumbag? It's perfectly obvious that you intend to leave your husband--simply because you feel like it--and are looking for public validation on this forum. You're not going to get it.

The thing is RG, you keep saying "my husband doesent want me to quit running, my husband is happy to do this or that etc" the problem is that your Husband is not an expert at saving marriages like the creator of this forum and therefore with all due respect his opinion of what's acceptable for you to keep on doing is not relevant right now plus as you clearly stated he is DEPRESSED and has just had to go though your unfaithfulness do you really think either of you are in a position to know how to save your marriage??

People here have saved their marriages, they have has to take DRASTIC steps to recover from infidelity and create a great marriage where BOTH spouses are happy and satisfied.

No one here asked you to do anything that will harm you or your wellbeing. Yeah changing a phone number is a hassle but so is risking your Husband triggering and falling back into depression because the OM might one day decide he wants to contact you again. It's only been 12 days since you broke contact how on earth can you be so sure the OM will never contact you again?? After all you claim you had such a powerful connection.

Wow!!!

Dr. Harley. I guess you would know that if you were serious about saving your marriage and learning MB concepts from Dr. Harley's website.

I guess you need to get out of the Fog first. Your poor BH.

I was a stroke on a collegiate lightweight 8-sweep crew team, Snookums, and even at my now-advanced age, remain a high-level official in two sports (plus instructor and official-assessor in one), so PLEASE don't flatter your knowledge of the athletic mindset at the expense of, for example, mine!

And while we're on that topic, friend, if you were to read my story you'd find that my preoccupation with that athletic commitment almost cost me MY marriage! But you know it all......

PS

This is something you have hinted at several times in this thread - the fact that you use endurance running for your depression.

You don't have to be an endurance/marathon runner to get the benefits of exercise to combat depression and anxiety.

Many of us here exercise regularly for this reason, so yes, we do know.

RGR,

I will try to keep this short and simple. Remember, I speak from experience here as the wayward spouse.

A lot of what you have read today may seem judgmental; in fact, it is based on experience, personal and witnessed here on the forums and in real life. Infidelity feels special, unique, often "meant to be" in the heat of the moment, when in reality it is a predictable display of tawdry, immoral behavior and self-betrayal.

You may not see this now. There is hope you will eventually. However, it requires you follow a very narrow path, often with radical changes. The concern about NC, changing phone numbers, even participating in events where the OM might be, is all part of that narrow path. With each "hit" from the affair crackpipe (OM, mementos, memories, photos, songs, even thoughts), you maintain an addled state of mind. Moreover, each contact further hurts your husband and gives you both that much more to surmount. The emphasis on NC not only applies to your actions, but to the OM's as well. Who is to say he won't decide to pick up the phone and call you? When one is serious about recovery, one would not hesitate to change that number in a heartbeat if it posed a risk, no matter how small, for breaking NC.

Understandably, you are not there yet. But there is hope you will be.

Please reflect on the posts you read today. It is often said the ones that anger you the most hit the closest to home. Posters are pointing out prevarications, foggy thinking, and needless preoccupations that you cannot yet see for yourself. (Yes, affairs are that predictable.) Instead of taking offense, force yourself to stop and think. Have an open mind and an open heart. Humility will take you very far. Anger, inflated egos, and selfishness will keep you squarely on your current path...which I can't imagine has been all that great thus far.

I think that's a good idea. Dr. Harley gives reasons as to why you need to change your number, why getting rid of Facebook is a good preventative measure/step to take to protect your marriage while you are rebuilding.

Being told to change your number, stop running, get rid of facebook without a solid reason is not only confusing to you (because you don't know the reason), but it can also turn you off using this forum to help you get on track.

Please follow the material inside of the book Surviving an Affair. Once you're both done moving on to His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters is also recommended. Great books to help strengthen your marriage.

Good luck. Stay focused. Keep your marriage #1 in your life and you will make it.

I beg your pardon? She was given reasons for these very basic first steps. Just because she doesn't WANT to do these things does not mean they are not important. These are recommendations straight from the horses mouth. The only reason she is "turned off" is because she is wayward and is averse to affair proofing her marriage. The people on this thread are peers just like you and I who have taken valuable time out of their lives to help this person. Please respect that.

Suggestion: if you see that a poster is confused about these suggestions, you can always clear up that confusion and explain why yourself. That would solve the problem.

I do respect that. Personally I don't believe she fully understand the depths of the reasoning behind these extraordinary precautions. Frankly - I don't even believe she understands the concepts behind Category 1 and Category 2 extraordinary precautions. It takes time to learn these new ideas and familiarize oneself to a new way of thinking and then applying them into your life. She just bought the book today. It takes time.

I am.

That is greatly minimizing what has been happening on this thread.

It's not an issue of "not understanding". She is wayward and foggy.

If you want to coddle her, go for it! But don't undermine the work others are doing to try to shake some of the fog out of her.

Far from coddling. It's extremely difficult to:
1. buy a book
2. read it completely
3. understand the depths of it
4. Applying it
5. Accomplish all of this under 24 hours.

If this was the case - we would all be rocket scientists and doctors.

1. I never undermined the work of those posting on this forum - my posts reinforced the concepts (I have read Dr. Harley's work and applied it in my life)
2. Knowledge doesn't get someone out of the fog - knowledge PLUS understanding (the reason's why) disperses the fog.

Not one word that I have posted is contrary to Dr. Harley's books or perspectives. I simply am aware that it takes time to put all the pieces together - just because she doesn't get it this very second doesn't mean she a lost cause and her marriage is forever doomed. Give her a chance to at least read through the book and digest the material.

Did you ever think that because you started running and then met the other man that is why you aren't the same person, that you are emotionally attatched on some level to your other man, you said you dream about him you have his number memorized, doesn't that sound like you may have fallen already and that has given you the high you might be on.....when this happens of course you will justify all your spouses faults to give your the excuse to go down that road........It is time to be honest with yourself.....you are using every excuse in the book to do what you are doing to hold on to that fantasy life and feeling......Your husband doesn't have a chance with you thinking the way you do.
You aren't spending time with your husband how could either one of you be in love anymore.....I don't think your serious about being married and respecting your marriage and the time it takes to have a fulfilling one for both of you, I am sure your husband's depressive state would improve if he felt his wife loved him and didn't just leave him alone all the time.........he will be ripe for his own emotional affair if you keep this up
I want you to read this site for BS's that go through a breakup with an EA or PA it is torture for everyone you will be a totally different person if you cross that line with this guy or any guy......or your husband does because you aren't there for him.
You sound like a person I always call and "I" guy/gal.........always thinking only of themselves and what they get out of life......
You two were different because you didn't fill each others needs and let your marriage become unhappy........you have a shot of doing something great for your life and your husband's give this job the amount of effort and though you give running and I will guarantee you will be blissfully happy with each other........
You can lead and everyone has to in a marriage from time to time when the other doesn't know exactly what to do..........your husband will take his turn some other time in the marriage.
You are living in a fantasy future world that isn't real or doesn't even exist, get back into the present and do something about your marriage listen to the great folks here they know their stuff.......you have stumbled on to a great site and someone must be watching over you and has given you the tools you are going to need, use these people and have a very loving marriage.....read read and learn and be honest when your reading and with yourself............this is how you will change to be the best person you have ever been........
anyone can run............this is the real challenge in your life the only things worth in life are what you do for others.....and what you have left in the end.......You want to go out knowing you were loved and that you loved with all your heart....with a man that you would die for and surrounded by a family you helped create together.........
extra ordinary actions are required for what is worth it in life..........
don't miss this window that has been left open for you........

It takes about one day typically. It doesn't take a long time and most marriages can't afford a great deal of time when there has been such wreckage. Which is why it is important to tell her why and encourage her to read the book. The forum is an essential part of that process because the main impediment is not an incomplete understanding but typically a matter of acceptance. A fogged out wayward doesn't WANT to accept these steps.

I would expect her to reject some measures that are intended to affair proof her marriage and we on the forum can be instrumental in that regard.

No, it is not difficult. We do it all the time. We have helped thousands of people understand the program and develop a PLAN in well under 24 hours, often much less than that. People who are sincere about saving their marriages have no problem understanding the program and creating a plan when pointed to the right resources and given guidance. However, if someone is not sincere, no amount of time will be sufficient. Someone who is here to learn will catch on quickly.

Hopefully, you will allow others to post as they see fit and stop trying to undermine them.

I agree with this totally. She is foggy and thinking of anyway to disregard her BHs feelings for a petty hobby. She has forgotten why she married her BH in the first place. My Spidey sense says she won't be back. She is getting horrible counseling that validate her immoral and bad decisions. She came here for validation and everyone on the forum stuck to their guns (MB Principles). She didn't even read the book IMO cause if she has the truth would of been very clear.

With all do respect MelodyLane, but I have read Dr. Harleys book (Suriving An Affair) and not once does it mention a time limit for the spouse to read his book , understand the material, accept the terms of plans, and make behavioral modifications in under 24 hrs. In fact his book clearly lets the reader know that there will be vacillation and to expect it. His guidance works when followed - but he carefully gives steps and reasons for the steps your following. It's the very basis upon which his plans are founded.
To demand that a WS immediately do something without given a chance to read the material is irresponsible at the least.

I understand the vitriol against a WS from BS, but at the end of the day the goal is to help. As a BS myself it does hurt to know that she has hurt her husband and has yet to learn how to provide Just compensation, but at the same time Dr. Harley teaches not to make demands. The fact that she is here as a WS is a testament to her willingness to learn. Instantaneous changes without true insight and understanding never yield long term changes.

Key word in your first sentence - "understand".
Sincerity and time have no direct correlation. But sincerity and a willingness to learn do.

Don't think I have the capability to stop anyone from posting, and I don't see how voicing my perspective which echo and reinforces the opinions of Dr. Harley, his books and online material undermines the efforts of others on this forum.

At the end of the day are we here to beat WS into immediately accepting things they don't completely understand or are we here to echo the sound principles provided by Dr. Harley and his research/writings?

I agree she is foggy, but I don't think she came here to validate her viewpoint that the affair was right. She admitted it was wrong and she stated that she ended contact with the OM.

As she reads more and learn, she will understand how to end contact according to Dr. Harley's plan, and she will learn how to provide just compensation as well as category 1 and category 2 extraordinary precautions. It's a lot to read - especially if you have a full time job. I had 2 weeks vacation in July and I'm still learning new things everyday.

Sorry but this is getting silly.

It was explained over and over to her why she needed to implement a simple EP that a 10-year-old could understand. She does not need to read the entirety of SAA in order to somehow process that.

You swoop in after she rejects the advice, calls posters "judgemental" (a wayward tactic) and says perhaps she should leave as the forum is making her feel bad and basically tell her that this is a "good idea".

You further tell her that we have confused her by not giving her a "solid reason" (not true!) and suggest that this has turned her off to the forum. THAT is what was out of line and THAT is what you were called out on.

Everythingcracks, thank you for understanding. I was going to pm you but apparently that's not an option here - makes sense I suppose.

Yesterday I was working from home. So was H. We talked a lot. I read 80% of the book, was posting here and was fielding work calls due to a crisis situation. I was sobbing most of the day in between calls. I went to lunch wi H and wore my sunglasses the whole time. This is not a ploy for sympathy, I brought this on myself, but I believe some of you understand that there's a real human behind the screen so I apologize if I came across as a hot mess. In short, it's because I am. K? I'm trying to hold myself and my life together and work on a marriage that's been broken pretty much since we got married - there's a lot I haven't told. It's a tall order. Right now I'm putting in as much work as I can, one step at a time. Cutting off contact with OM was huge, and like Dr. Harley said, it's hundreds of decisions every day, not a one-time thing. The fact that I know his digits and don't call him is not flaunting everything, it's reiterating that no matter what I do, I could still contact him and I don't because I know how damaging it would be for everyone. This is a conscious decision on my part and one I'm not compromising on. It would kill H and therefore me. My A didn't reach the secretive stage and I'm not a liar. The reason I was found out so quickly is because I can't keep anything from H. Two days was all I could do and it was tearing me up.

My H isn't perfect but he loves me more than anyone, and I love him more than anyone too. The hell I've put us through isn't worth any contact, and feelings, any anything.

The judgments I was referring to are the ones that seem to know my motives, what goes on in my therapy sessions, whether I've read the book because I forgot the author's name (yesterday it was a miracle I remembered mine) etc. I know there are patterns to these things, but I'm one person. Everyone's mileage varies. Please listen to the stories before you make assumptions, and be familiar with the concept of self-fulfilling prophecy before you tell someone who they are and what they want. Even well-meaning tough love type of posts could be very triggering.

I do thank everyone for the help and suggestions, I'm out of here now to implement what I can; for the record, most people need a chance to process befor being told what to do. A huge asset in H and I staying together is that he has never told me what to do; he's given me his thoughts and let me make my own decisions to prove whether I really want to stay with him. I was the one who cut off contact with OM, who chose to give H access to my phone, accounts, etc. Feeling like I'm made to do something would've sent me running and made it an insincere gesture on my part. Many will disagree, i think even dr h, and that's fine. I readily admit that I have huge issues with rules and authority. I also don't believe that humans are one-size-fits-all creatures and approaches need to take individual strengths into consideration.

For the record, H and I went for a run yesterday. Running is literally keeping me from losing it entirely right now. Do not underestimate the mental state that people are in when posting here, even if they were the bad guy. I had half a mind to run straight off the bike path into traffic; luckily the exercise helped immensely. He's going out of town for business next week and I'm going with him. I still don't know for sure if we're going to make it; some of our long-term stuff seems insurmountable but I'm going to try like hell.

Again, thanks, I think I needed to be here but I also think I got what I needed to get. I still need to be functional in life as well and the constant posting here would prohibit that. If you havent picked up on it, im a bit of an obsessive sort and staying away from here would be tough.

I wish you all well, I really do.

If I may be so bold, and from the point of view as a BS who is in recovery with my W, 3 years in...

If you found the need START here, you'll soon discover a desire to STAY here.

God Bless.

You said that you have a history of depression, self-medicating, and a hormone imbalance. It seems like you are still trying to self-medicate, but now you are substituting a "runners high" for your previous medications. Clearly, running is not enough to control your depression and correct your hormone imbalance. Please get professional help.

Somebody said in one of the first pages that you were kind of getting the cart before the horse focusing on the how much can I run thing. I think that is true.

You can here because you had an affair, but almost all of your thread is about running. The biggest thing you should be focusing on right now is not how intense your exercise can be but how to help your husband heal from the affair, being 100 percent honest with him, getting a lot of intimate need UA time with him, <<<EDIT>>>>, and reading about how to do just compensation and create precautions. With all of that to do you probably don't have time to be overly obsessed with running anyway.

And I also used to run. I did what Jessica Claire said. I was addicted to the high that comes from constantly pushing the limits. It isn't healthy physically or mentally.

I agree.

When I was a medical student my first procedure I performed alone was a port-cath removal - took me 45 minutes - skin to skin (which is about oh 39 minutes longer than the procedure should take by an expert). Each step had to be explained to me in real-time. The attending I was working said, don't make a move unless I fully understood what I had to do next, and if I don't, ask and he will explain it again. In my field they say you can teach a monkey to operate. If someone doesn't understand something - explain it again. It's simple and harms no one. Just because a 10-year old can understand it, like a monkey operating, doesn't make it simple.

Changing ones character is methodical and take times. Respect that.


There was no swooping.
You are the one who vocalized the word judge-mental (for the record)
Funny, but I'm a BS - but by nature of profession I have to be/remain objective - but carry on.
Never did tell her to leave, she suggested and I supported her decision - FYI it's called respecting ones autonomy (something physicians must do - if a patient want to sign out AMA and they have ST elevations in precordial leads - guess what I can't make them stay)

Never did try and confuse her - only reinforced the principles extolled by Dr. Harley's writings and research.

So what now?? So far you have insulted me by judging my opinions and labeling them as a WS when in fact i'm a BS and echoing the words/opinions of Dr. Harley who practices patience and understanding. You have then used your own lens to distort my words to fit your view point. Is there any end to the depths of your judgement?

Actually, he doesn't cite any timelines. What I am citing is the length of time it takes to understand the first steps to affair proof a marriage and develop a strategic plan. That does not take more than 24 hours when a person is willing. If you feel that other posters are being "irresponsible" you should notify them to the moderators.


Yes and no. Just because a spouse shows up here does not mean he/she has a willingness to learn. Many times they are here to validate an existing stance. That is what we have seen here. I am not sure what you mean by the comment about making "demands" because it has no relevance to this thread. No one here is in a position to "make demands."

Telling a reluctant wayward that it takes time to adopt these changes is destructive and counterproductive. She needs encouragement to do the right things, not excuses to delay them. Her marriage is in a state of crisis after all. She doesn't have weeks or months to implement simple basic steps.

Can we please get back to helping this poster?

Exactly.

Thank you, Mel.

I apologize that the edited portion of my post went against MB. I must have worded it wrong because that wasn't my intention.

rungirlrun, I would ask that you send him here so that we can speak to him. There are several steps that must be taken to recover your marriage. He needs to be leading the recovery of your marriage if it is ever to happen. One of the first steps would be for him to expose your affair to the OM's wife and to your close family and friends.

Please show him this article: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

And this one: here

RGR: When you said you had a history of "self-medicating," were you referring to drug abuse or alcoholism?

I love how you wrote that and then made numerous comments--which had no relevance whatsoever to the discussion--to impress (convince?) us that you are a doctor so we would be more likely to respect/defer to your opinions. Didn't you realize how transparent that was?

His whole last post was just weird. I am ignoring it and I agree we should get back to helping the OP.

Sometimes 2x4s are necessary to break through the fog. They are used routinely here and actually demonstrate caring. We don't pat people on the back when they are continuing to make bad choices. People really do want the best for you and your M.

And no, we do NOT underestimate people's mental states. You probably haven't considered that many BSs land here and have to Plan A (demonstrate a willingness to meet their emotional needs and avoid all lovebusters) their wayward spouse who is actively in an affair. This is so demanding and stressful on a BW that it can lead to an actual mental breakdown.

You don't need to tell us your life history in order for us to get it. Withdrawal is extremely difficult for a WS. This is why we are pressing you so hard to get these basic EPs implemented. All it will take is ONE text or phone call from the OM to reset your clock all the way back to DAY 1. Just by having your FB and phone as avenues for him to be able to contact you will likely keep you triggered and prevent you getting out of withdrawal.

I hope that you will send your H here.

Since you like analogy, try this on.

Someone calls 911 because there is a crisis. The operator on the phone takes the call and makes suggestions. I.E. stop the bleeding, go to a safe place, etc.

Does it really help to go into the why we need to stop the bleeding, or why do I need to get to a safe place?

No. Success does not hinge on why the instructions were given. Success hinges on following the instructions.

After the danger has passed, if the caller wants to learn more, they can. But in the crisis, actions are far more important than an in depth understanding.

Follow the directions, get on the right path, and then, when you've stopped the bleeding in your marriage, you can learn more about why and how to do it better, an so forth.

This is a marriage ER. We are not teaching folks how to be doctors, we are triaging the wounded and teaching them how to take care of their marriages.

A patient doesn't need the same understanding that the doctor has to follow the doctors recommendations.

Everythingcracks -

Please respect this: Dr. Harley's program derives from behavioral therapy, not cognitive therapy. You keep insisting that her mindset must change before her actions can change, and everyone here is trying to make you understand that this program doesn't work that way.

+1000

Everythingcracks - I suggest that if you feel there is advice being given that does not match the MB plan than notify the moderators. You are doing nothing good in this thread right now other than confusing an addicted WS. I will put Melody's experience up against anyone here. This forum is not an anything goes, anyone can say anything forum.

Rungirl,
You are about to be hit by a bus. Do you want me to let you "process" that or do you want me to tell you to GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY!

Time to process will come. Right now you need to do specific, critical things to avoid getting hit by the affair bus.

As is often said here:

Feelings follow actions!

I'd say Dr. Harley is from the behaviorist school so the cognitive school of thought is completely different. Repeated behaviors that become habit will lead to a change in cognition.